Endwalker White Mage has Issues

I've checked the JP healer forum and it seems japanese players agree with a lot of the issues brought up over here as well. Maybe there is hope yet, since the devs only care about feedback from japanese players.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

(-would it be OP to have lilies already up at every pull like Sage's addergall ? If they worry about Misery being too strong in an opener, it could be "in combat only")
(-a DPS lily spell would solve a lot of issues but we'll never get that, right)

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I think it would be better to follow the rhizomata approach (also from sage funnily enough) and just have an ability that grants like 2 lilies on use though it would require a higher cooldown than rhizomata for obvious reasons.

That being said in isolation, I don't think your suggested change would be too op at all. Getting 3 lilies at the start of a boss would amount to only 4 additional glares in the fight (assuming misery becomes dps neutral), which is not too much imo. As for a dps lily skill, I think this would be a bad idea, misery already exists to replace the damage you might otherwise have done (even if its balance is off currently) and more importantly this would create another situation where you would be "losing dps" to heal. Imo lilies should be a healing tool for whm and misery should be the dps balance for that, adding a dps lily skills creates even more issues.

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Originally Posted by Ironthorne

I've checked the JP healer forum and it seems japanese players agree with a lot of the issues brought up over here as well. Maybe there is hope yet, since the devs only care about feedback from japanese players.

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Thank god, while I'm sure that english player feedback is communicated somehow, especially with the influx of new english players recently, I'm glad that our japanese counterparts feel similarly as you are correct that their voice is definitely more impactful.

Just hit 82 and I'm wondering what the point of Cure 2 after lvl 85 is if a tank is decently steady and not dropping fast.

After the Enhanced Healing Magic Trait:

Cure 2: 800 Potency Heal
Medica 2: 250 up front + 150 / tick for 15s = 1000 Potency heal

Both cost 1000 Mana.

Also:

Holy III - a measly 10 potency "upgrade" from Holy is an absolute joke and a slap in the face. It's a lazy trait that basically required zero thought other than throwing a dart at a board, it hitting Holy, and them putting something extra on it.

Obviously, they wanted to make good on the advice of "make sure to regen and medica 2 the tank every pull :)" that is/was always weirdly prevalent. Now you can do so at an actual gain. :p

Poor attempt at humor aside, my biggest disappointment with White Mage in Endwalker is that they didn't do a single thing about Lilies. No increase in potency for Afflatus Misery to account for the increased Glare potency, no new skills tied to the Lily system in general, no way to interact with it at all outside of actual Lily usage. I would've loved something simple like making Glare or Holy accelerate Lily generation, or a new, powerful healing skill that maybe cost two Lilies which would nourish the Blood Lily by two thirds as a way to reward patience and good usage of your resources.

Otherwise, in practice, it's a... functional Job. In between forced intermissions and playing in an unoptimal and uncoordinated setting of random/pug co-healers, I'm not really feeling the theoretical MP shortage, and I never feel like I can't handle the outgoing damage. Though I will admit some boring fights like the first circle of Asphodel makes my MP feel dangerously low because even the meager oGCD kit of a White Mage covers the instances of damage intake there, and you never have to interrupt your Glares pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Just hit 82 and I'm wondering what the point of Cure 2 after lvl 85 is if a tank is decently steady and not dropping fast.

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Cure II is your "everything is on cooldown, I'm out of lilies, bene has been used, regen and medica II are on the tank but they are still dying" button.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

my biggest disappointment with White Mage in Endwalker is that they didn't do a single thing about Lilies.

I'm not really feeling the theoretical MP shortage, and I never feel like I can't handle the outgoing damage. Though I will admit some boring fights like the first circle of Asphodel makes my MP feel dangerously low because even the meager oGCD kit of a White Mage covers the instances of damage intake there, and you never have to interrupt your Glares pretty much.

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It is unfortunate that whm seemed to basically be passed over in EW as I agree that the changes whm got do not feel "expansion worthy." Especially when I think everyone could more or less agree that it feels like a natural progression to gain a lily skill that applies medica II's regen effect to the party.

As for the mp issues whm has, it's less that whm is crippled and more that mp management tools are not up to snuff. As you pointed out in your example prolonged glare spam is enough to drain whm mp to uncomfortable levels. As apposed to its pure healer counter part ast who has functionally infinite mp regardless of situation. While I don't think whm needs to on par with ast necessarily, I do think its mp management tools need a buff.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

It is unfortunate that whm seemed to basically be passed over in EW as I agree that the changes whm got do not feel "expansion worthy." Especially when I think everyone could more or less agree that it feels like a natural progression to gain a lily skill that applies medica II's regen effect to the party.

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I feel like they could rework Cleric Stance to be WHM's Eukrasia and have it turn our GCDs into their Lily Equivalent skills so they could add Medica 2 and Cure 3 Afflatus Spells without issue. Expanding on the Lily System would be so easy to do at that point because then you could just add more skills without worrying about button bloat but no, WHM just gets passed over with no improvements to it, like always.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

As for the mp issues whm has, it's less that whm is crippled and more that mp management tools are not up to snuff. As you pointed out in your example prolonged glare spam is enough to drain whm mp to uncomfortable levels. As apposed to its pure healer counter part ast who has functionally infinite mp regardless of situation. While I don't think whm needs to on par with ast necessarily, I do think its mp management tools need a buff.

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At this point, we'd have to wait until 7.0 for any interesting changes to occur. The most I expect at this point would be Assize to go up to 10% MP restored.

No WHM changes in 6.05 :(
I was really hoping for an MP buff at the very least, though ideally they'd also buff Misery and reduce Liturgy's cooldown. Maybe even Asylum's too.

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Originally Posted by Charganium

No WHM changes in 6.05 :(

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What
The
#&%^

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Originally Posted by Charganium

No WHM changes in 6.05 :(
I was really hoping for an MP buff at the very least, though ideally they'd also buff Misery and reduce Liturgy's cooldown. Maybe even Asylum's too.

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I mean it’s nothing new that whm doesn’t get love

Also content must be tuned for all jobs too be cleared week 1 sooo I assume the heal checks are meh just because whm runs out of mana in less then 30 seconds if push comes too shove.

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Originally Posted by Charganium

No WHM changes in 6.05 :(

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Honestly, I had high hopes and low expectations. If the devs couldn't even be bothered to keep misery in line dps wise when compared to its ShB version (which has been known about since media tour) on launch, it was unlikely we were going to see fixes this quickly. Insert: -obligatory meme about healers being second class citizens- and "maybe we will see some changes in 6.1 copium."

Cleared first savage fight and working on second atm. Melded piety out of my ears and I couldve probably not (858pie) but keeping it for now until I start upgrading gear. There is very little back to back damage and my cohealer Sage shits out heals while keeping dps up. Lilybell is useful and feels very made for specific mechanics that coincidentally pop around 3 minutes after eachother....hmmmm....
I havent needed to use any liles so far. Lucid is on cooldown and I have emergency superethers just in case but unless I die there really isnt a problem at my piety level. Ofcourse the first fight is never really demanding once you learn the mechanics but honestly so far I see little reason to bring "strong" healers. I think SE needs to rethink healer design or fight design. Neither me or cohealer needed to use any gcd heals once we knew what to do. Group handles mitigation. Tanks are stupid strong. Damage is so spread out.....

And same deal with second fight. We are at third fight now and have reached a part where we have to discuss mitigation a bit more but the boss actually is untargetable during small parts so I waste my lilies there for misery.

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

Cleared first savage fight and working on second atm. Melded piety out of my ears and I couldve probably not (858pie) but keeping it for now until I start upgrading gear. There is very little back to back damage and my cohealer Sage shits out heals while keeping dps up. Lilybell is useful and feels very made for specific mechanics that coincidentally pop around 3 minutes after eachother....hmmmm....
I havent needed to use any liles so far. Lucid is on cooldown and I have emergency superethers just in case but unless I die there really isnt a problem at my piety level. Ofcourse the first fight is never really demanding once you learn the mechanics but honestly so far I see little reason to bring "strong" healers. I think SE needs to rethink healer design or fight design. Neither me or cohealer needed to use any gcd heals once we knew what to do. Group handles mitigation. Tanks are stupid strong. Damage is so spread out.....

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This basically solidifies in my mind that the devs don't really have any idea what to do with healers. Making fights easier to heal if not a good direction to go. It doesn't benefit healers at all and just pushes them closer and closer to being worse dps. As if that wasn't already not great, creating abilities as specific solution to specific mechanics in fights, or worse, and probably more likely, designing fights to make poorly conceived overly niche abilities good is objectively bad game design. I'm not trying to be overly negative but I was really worried they were going in this direction with Lilybell and it seems my concerns were justified. This kind of design, that is designing specific solutions to specific problems instead of creating an array of tools for the player to use as they see fit to overcome challenges, is how you kill class diversity. I really hope we don't see any more abilities like Lilybell for any class and that lilybell is reworked to be a general tool instead of a specific solution.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

This basically solidifies in my mind that the devs don't really have any idea what to do with healers. Making fights easier to heal if not a good direction to go. It doesn't benefit healers at all and just pushes them closer and closer to being worse dps. As if that wasn't already not great, creating abilities as specific solution to specific mechanics in fights, or worse, and probably more likely, designing fights to make poorly conceived overly niche abilities good is objectively bad game design. I'm not trying to be overly negative but I was really worried they were going in this direction with Lilybell and it seems my concerns were justified. This kind of design, that is designing specific solutions to specific problems instead of creating an array of tools for the player to use as they see fit to overcome challenges, is how you kill class diversity. I really hope we don't see any more abilities like Lilybell for any class and that lilybell is reworked to be a general tool instead of a specific solution.

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I am getting close to kill on the third fight now and so far you still do not need a single gcd to clear and we ARE sharing heals while team mitigates. The third fight even has downtime to rapidly spend lilies for a misery without dps loss. The "bleed aoe mechanics" where lilybell is massively useful are 3 minutes apart so in my eyes they definitely designed lilybell for those specific encounters. I will say there is a part that has heavy incoming back to back damage but lilybell just negates it in a silly way almost. I STILL think it needs to proc on anyteammember and have a shorter cooldown. But in savage so far? Massively useful.

Apparently patch 6.08 will have more job tuning. Here is to hope WHM receives something. I'd settle for 10% MP on assize and 30 potency extra on misery just give us something.
Unfortunately YoshiP only talked about DPS and PLD when talking about 6.08 so it's probably best to expect nothing at this point.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Apparently patch 6.08 will have more job tuning. Here is to hope WHM receives something. I'd settle for 10% MP on assize and 30 potency extra on misery just give us something.
Unfortunately YoshiP only talked about DPS and PLD when talking about 6.08 so it's probably best to expect nothing at this point.

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Yeah I expect nothing. I ended up clearing panda 3 savage thos evening and I decided to be safe and overheal just to clear. But I think you can basically get away without using lilies more than 2-3 times after tornadoes.

I’m a WHM main since ARR, and I do find that WHM is less thought about compared to other jobs. It’s been kicked out of Meta for multiple expansions since AST was introduced. To compensate lack of utility, we were given the damage contribution instead, however raid groups will always take a healer that buffs a party… increased overall party DPS is always better than an individual putting out a slightly higher DPS.
This can be seen in the first clears of this raid tier. AST and SCH were taken over WHM and SGE.

I’ve done P1S, i have a SGE for a healing partner. It’s the first time since ARR where another healer job has been above me in DPS. No matter how many glares I do, the SGE can cast more than I can in a fight, even when being less active. They are way above me (all be it i’m not overmelded either but still). Is this down to how quick it’s casts ? The number of OGCDs it has? Or that it doesn’t need to worry about mana management at all?

IMO WHM needs to be balanced to match SGEs healing and DPS capability. They should be on parr with each other at least. SGE is on top for both at the moment. WHMs mana regen is also needed to be looked at - you know it’s a DPS loss when you need to start melding PIE just to make things more comfortable.

I love lilybel. It’s great on bleeds and multiple AoE hits. Maybe having a shorter cool down may help? Or have it do damage as well as heals?

WHM needs something just to make it as desirable as other jobs, I love its not changed to much… but it just needs something.

And Ive started progging p4s and jesus lord is WHM bad for it. Imagine having to drop it because AST is so much better for that fight since WHM HAS to do multiple gcd heals so the party doesnt die in the first 3 minutes of the fight. How bad is that? I am not enjoying this. I dont know how to play AST well.

All I ask for is DPS neutral Blood Lilly, and OGCD lilly and maybe some decent mana regen. Assize is a great ability but 5% every 45 seconds isn't cutting it.

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

And Ive started progging p4s and jesus lord is WHM bad for it. Imagine having to drop it because AST is so much better for that fight since WHM HAS to do multiple gcd heals so the party doesnt die in the first 3 minutes of the fight. How bad is that? I am not enjoying this. I dont know how to play AST well.

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AST is pretty amazing for the p4s fights.

I wish using a lily proc'd an ocgcd lower potency dps skill "blood petal"

Using 3 blood petals would unlock a high potency gcd blood lily.

My personal dream for white mage is to feel like a powerhouse in both healing and damage

The ultimate im pretty but dont mess with me class.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

AST is pretty amazing for the p4s fights.

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Yeah, after having massive anxiety I started to get the hang of when to use my tools, I even started to enjoy it a bit. I did msq on AST so I had SOME sense of it but it felt so buttonbloated that I left it for WHM. But WHM was just not good for this encounter. We are doing it blind as well so this is going to take a while. But I am sad that WHM feels so bad this expansion that I actually had to drop it. That is not good jobdesign.

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

And Ive started progging p4s and jesus lord is WHM bad for it. Imagine having to drop it because AST is so much better for that fight since WHM HAS to do multiple gcd heals so the party doesnt die in the first 3 minutes of the fight. How bad is that? I am not enjoying this. I dont know how to play AST well.

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This is true. WHM is (predictably) the most popular healer even in Savage if you look at the overall statistics. It's literally twice as popular as AST on the first boss (which coincidentally barely needs any healing).

However, from p3 onwards it changes significantly with WHM being roughly on par with SCH and AST for usage. On p4s it falls behind SCH and on part II barely keeps up with AST. It's also the least represented in speed kills for all bosses. That might change later once gear makes the heal checks easier, but it seems when content actually requires serious healing, WHM is simply a bad class.

I'm not surprised at all. Not only does AST pack ridiculous amounts of oGCD's and free healing, those abilities are also much better than what WHM has. AST has access to 10% mitigation on half the cd that Temperance has, has Neutral for even more mitigation and Macrocosmos simply deletes mechanics. AST GCD's are also equal to WHM and cheaper on a class with infinite mana. All WHM has is Cure III and Bene memes.

I think at this point despite whm's popularity its fairly obvious that whm is just not in a good spot atm. It just kind of needs everything, a bit more damage (and fixing it internal potency balance with misery), more healing (either through additional tools or improvements to is existing ones) and a lot more mp economy. It's hard to say what will be in 6.08 outside of what Yoshi-P mentioned specifically but he also made a general statement that no job would be neglected. Well sadly whm feels pretty neglected so far in EW so I guess we will just have to see if 6.08 puts the lie to that statement or not.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

I think at this point despite whm's popularity its fairly obvious that whm is just not in a good spot atm. It just kind of needs everything, a bit more damage (and fixing it internal potency balance with misery), more healing (either through additional tools or improvements to is existing ones) and a lot more mp economy. It's hard to say what will be in 6.08 outside of what Yoshi-P mentioned specifically but he also made a general statement that no job would be neglected. Well sadly whm feels pretty neglected so far in EW so I guess we will just have to see if 6.08 puts the lie to that statement or not.

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I dont think they will change anything with WHM. They have never really known what to do with healers to begin with and every expansion they keep showing that they still do not know. WHM is in a bad spot but it is viable in all content so why would they change it? Ive cleared the doorboss of last savage fight yesterday and WHM was absolutely fine and viable and we had a comfy clear. Once we are better geared it is back to spamming glare as per usual. They absolutely should change lots of things in WHM, as this and many other threads have shown, but I don't think they will. Maybe some small potencychange, anything else would require them to actually think how the healers are played in endgame.

As a WHM main since 2.0, as of Endwalker I quit the class. I doubt its going to get much love as the brick-brain brute force tutorial healer class that it is. Liturgy of the bell is an incredibly disappointing lvl 90 ability, like a worse version of Sages Panhaima, sure the potency is double Pans but it only procs when you yourself get hurt, not the rest of the party. Panhaima comes it at half the potency but applies to every party member individually. The moral of the story is play Sage I guess. If people stop playing WHM then, maybe finally Square will see it needs help.

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Originally Posted by Kukajoo

As a WHM main since 2.0, as of Endwalker I quit the class. I doubt its going to get much love as the brick-brain brute force tutorial healer class that it is. Liturgy of the bell is an incredibly disappointing lvl 90 ability, like a worse version of Sages Panhaima, sure the potency is double Pans but it only procs when you yourself get hurt, not the rest of the party. Panhaima comes it at half the potency but applies to every party member individually. The moral of the story is play Sage I guess. If people stop playing WHM then, maybe finally Square will see it needs help.

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They could easily drop the potency of the heals and make it have a shorter cooldown, +5sec longer duration and make it trigger off any partymember. But doing savage so far has shown that the damage is so spread out that 3 min cooldown is "fine". And I would honestly take any of the changes I proposed at this point. It is so niche it could be taken out of the game and it would make no difference at all. I use it twice in each savage fight.

I haven't progged past P2S but judging from pugging that fight on every healer, WHM falls short pretty badly.

SGE might be weak in dungeon content but honestly is still pretty viable because dungeon is easy anyway.

AST and SCH do just fine in dungeons as well.

While yes WHM is the dungeon king, that's all it has been good at and this is due Misery and Holy's stun. That's really it.

WHM mains can hate AST all they want but there's something that AST will always have over WHM and that's a versatile kit, even more so now that Nocturnal gone.

The problem for WHM is its obsessive focus on being too simple. So much so that it actively hinders any creativity in the job. If you look at both WHM and AST's kit it's pretty clear that the devs simply don't know where to go with WHM. With AST it's clear they want it to be the delayed heal timer healer that gets rewarded for properly timing their CDs along with cards along with having a meaningful reward system with their MP recovery.

One of its biggest problem was a fix to a healers 1.5s cast. WHM desperately needed more options to weave and before the change, you would use a lily as it was better than nothing and at least you would have Misery. Now, it feels even worse to use lilies, highlighting how the lily system was a fix, not an improvement from its StB iteration.

And for popularity, people will still play WHM no matter how bad it is because for one, it's a classic job and a lot of people love WHM. But P4S has proven that WHM being the "best" in severe healing situation, is simply a lie. It's the worst at death recovery, is a selfish healer due it\\'s lack of OGCDS, therefore burdening SCH and SGE when it comes to rotating raidwide healing.

Simply putting, the GCD heal design for WHM is and will never work. Not as long as Misery is DPS negative and lilies only limited to regenerating every 30s.

At this point people need to stop pretending like SE saved WHM during ShB. They didn't, they straight up nerfed AST and SCH to be on WHM's level and even then, AST came out stronger than ever. And even SCH can stand against SGE evenly.

These are the same devs that had the audicity to conjure up the original StB Plenary and Lily Gauge. ShB WHM was a fix not an improvement because was already at rock bottom. People kept going on about "WHM was spared," but did it have to lose? Aero 3?

SE and their fear of doing anything polarizing on WHM and the WHM crowd that is content with its current state will be the exact reason why WHM will remain as it is.

The fact that the only reason to play WHM is because you want to turn your brain off and Glare spam.

Greetings, I am WHM Cassandra. I've been complaining/warning about this in varying forms since Heavensward. WHM is like this because it's trapped in a circular logic loop wherein it's simple, weak, has no utility, no complexity, and no identity. It's harder to see this by comparison when the other healers have complexity stripped off, but it's always there. Expect this to be the homebase WHM will always return to. There is -nothing- this job is allowed to shine at. It gets to be second place at best in any given category; they're all more efficient healers, have more mobility, more utility, better MP economies for their -more powerful- heals for literally no reason, and Sage does more personal damage while the party damage buffs from the other two will outshine WHM faster than you'd hope.

It stays this way because the nanosecond WHM is actually good at something, several things happen. For one, it already has brand recognition and fandom working against it. If it's actually competitive for once? People flock to it. Square balances jobs based on (un)popularity, and will immediately buff the sh*t out of the other healers in response. Furthermore, mains for the other healers will wail and shriek and gnash their teeth: WHM is the bad crappy healer for babies! It's not allowed to be better than MY complex class that puts in more effort for less output! Also never give WHM any complexity because that's MY identity!

The logic loop will circle the toilet every expansion, and WHM is always, ALWAYS going to be just a liiiiittle bit worse than the other healers, for some very disappointing reasons.

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Originally Posted by LuciaMirain

I dont think they will change anything with WHM. They have never really known what to do with healers to begin with and every expansion they keep showing that they still do not know.

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Well I think the issue boils down too that they primarly wanted to stray away from the classic healing archetype and instead make us support classes. This worked fairly well early on when we had more DPS-Spells and overall support abilities to pick up. But these days there's just so much support a healer can provide outside of healing, so all healers(Except AST and part SCH) mostly have damage reduction and/or +healing power.

Things i would like WHM to have are really hard to make right in this game if balance would be considered.
I would love to see WHM able to use Aeroga or perhaps even Tornado since wind spells have been a natural part of a WHM's arsenal since at least FF3. Other spells i would like to see are reflect, confuse and mini.

- Aeroga could simply be a AoE spell with higher potency then Holy, but Holy have It's stun mechanic, which would mean we have to chose or combo these spells properly to maximize our potential.
- Confuse could be a enemy damage reduction, which get upgraded to mini at higher levels. Mini would also make enemies take more damage.
- Reflect could be a buff you put on the tank that makes them reflect offensive spells for some seconds. Kinda nische given how incoming dmg works, but it would give WHM a unique tool in some fights. The pull between Vritra and 1st boss in Sarasvati comes to mind, pop reflect and all those fireballs would bounce back dealing dmg to the casters instead.
- Not to mention WHM would be a job which naturaly have silence.
- Another idea would be to let WHM have dispell, simply a AoE version of Esuna. But there's not really many removable debuffs going on in the later expansions to warrant it... perhaps that should change thou.

For the love of Hydaelyn can someone please reduce Holy cast time to 1.5s. It makes for some awful dungeon experience being unable to weave or slidecast esp once getting used to AST's 1.5s cast time and SCH's and SGE's instant cast time.
If they're gonna change anything for 6.08 they need to change this.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

For the love of Hydaelyn can someone please reduce Holy cast time to 1.5s. It makes for some awful dungeon experience being unable to weave or slidecast esp once getting used to AST's 1.5s cast time and SCH's and SGE's instant cast time.
If they're gonna change anything for 6.08 they need to change this.

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Frankly I don’t mind the 2.5s cast time. It’s a break from the 1.5s monotony & gave me an actual reason to use lilies for movement+heal+weaving without clipping (outside "lol burn lily at downtime for misery go brr brr")

I certainly wouldn’t mind an adjustment, though. I just wish Holy III does more to warrant that 2.5s. They had the opportunity to make it more interesting beside the lazy 10p upgrade and new pretty sparkles, but alas.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Frankly I don’t mind the 2.5s cast time. It’s a break from the 1.5s monotony

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Personally I find it more monotonous to be unable to weave without clipping. Lilies work if you need the heal, but using one just to weave is trying to band-aid clunky design and feels bad.

Not that it matters to me. As far as I'm concerned, Sage is the dungeon king now and WHM is gathering dust on the shelf.

So after having read through a ton of discussion both here and in other post/websites regarding how people feel and what people think about whm I have some additional thoughts I'd like to share. Personally, I think whm's current identity as the simple, gcd healer is exactly as it should be and currently it's biggest issue is a lack of consistent internal design. Now while I still don't think whm needs a rework to feel good, I do think a rework is required for the current iteration to be the best it can be. So I would like to share my idea for such a rework based on the myriad of different ideas and suggestions I have seen across the community.

Changes:

1. All of whm's gcd mp costs are reduced to match astro

2. Assize gains a second charge

3. Thin Air becomes a 2 charge ability on a 60 second cooldown that restores 15% mp

4. Freecure is removed and Cure I upgrades directly into Cure II (Cure II replaces Cure I), Cure III is still its own spell

5. Medica I upgrades directly into Medica II (Medica II replaces Medica I)

6. Glare III gains the additional effect: Adds 2.5 seconds to your lily gauge (this would make it so whm would gain an additional lilies about every 30 seconds)

7. Holy III's cast time is reduced to 1.5 seconds, and gain's the following additional effects: adds 1 second to your lily gauge for each enemy hit by holy III up to a maximum of 3 seconds per cast; afflicts to all enemies hit by holy III with Dia if any of them were already effected by Dia.

8. Afflatus skills are no longer separate bindable spells, instead while you at least 1 lily available on you gauge, Cure II, Medica II and Cure III transform into an Afflatus version of the spell. The Afflatus versions have the exact same effect that the normal spell but cost 1 lily instead of mana and are instant cast.

9. Using consuming a lily grants Afflatus Misery 1 charge. Misery is useable after accumulating 3 charges, but can hold up to 5. When used, Misery deal damage in the same way as it does now (aoe fall off included) equal to the number of charges expended times the potency of glare.

10. Liturgy of the Bell is changed to put down a lilybell as it does now, and grant the whm 5 stacks of lilybell, Liturgy of the Bell can then be reactivated as an ocgd to use its heal pulse, the reactivation is on a 1 second recast time and when all stack are used or expire the ability has a 3 minute cooldown, no final burst.

Potency will have to be changed to accommodate the extra misery damage, but whm only has 3 potency levers to change, glare, dia and assize so it should be easy to balance whm's damage to be exactly where the dev's think it should be in comparison to the other healers. Again I am not claiming all these idea are all mine just that based on what I've heard and read I think this is the best rework for whm right now. I would love to hear people's thoughts on this and to any devs that may see this, I hope this helps with the direction of whm.

I think WHM badly needs some new Lily heals as well as an oGCD that generates one or more on demand. The Lily system only has a Medica and Cure II clone, while both Aetherflow and Addersgall get 4 heals each, 2 being extremely strong. Ideally we'd have 4 Lily heals, one roughly every 20 seconds.

Misery is a tricky one since it will always be better to hold Lilies for downtime as long as it exists. As much as a big nuke can feel fun for big numbers, perhaps a better idea would be to have Afflatus heals additionally "drain" Aether from the nearest target within 25y in the form of 310 potency damage, then the Blood Lily becomes a 310 aoe with no fall off that heals allies for a large amount of potency, similar to Pneuma.

Liturgy's issue for me is the cooldown. I'd reduce the potency of each stack to 300 and the cooldown to 2 minutes, as well as a detonate function, allowing it to line up with mechanics more easily and become flexible.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I think WHM badly needs some new Lily heals as well as an oGCD that generates one or more on demand. The Lily system only has a Medica and Cure II clone, while both Aetherflow and Addersgall get 4 heals each, 2 being extremely strong. Ideally we'd have 4 Lily heals, one roughly every 20 seconds.

Misery is a tricky one since it will always be better to hold Lilies for downtime as long as it exists. As much as a big nuke can feel fun for big numbers, perhaps a better idea would be to have Afflatus heals additionally "drain" Aether from the nearest target within 25y in the form of 310 potency damage, then the Blood Lily becomes a 310 aoe with no fall off that heals allies for a large amount of potency, similar to Pneuma.

Liturgy's issue for me is the cooldown. I'd reduce the potency of each stack to 300 and the cooldown to 2 minutes, as well as a detonate function, allowing it to line up with mechanics more easily and become flexible.

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I mean if these would make misery actually dmg neutral it would make the entire job way more flexible i my option. At the moment every good whm player dreads itself for using lily heals just because you lose tons of dmg. But with that change you wouldn’t have the problem and even better you could actually safe it for raid buff windows if you try too nin max. Assize as people already said needs 2 charges because you use it for dmg and not healing except if both lines up. And maybe give aqua veil a build in regen I do find it pretty weak in comparison too all other 86 healer skills.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I think WHM badly needs some new Lily heals as well as an oGCD that generates one or more on demand. The Lily system only has a Medica and Cure II clone, while both Aetherflow and Addersgall get 4 heals each, 2 being extremely strong. Ideally we'd have 4 Lily heals, one roughly every 20 seconds.

Misery is a tricky one since it will always be better to hold Lilies for downtime as long as it exists. As much as a big nuke can feel fun for big numbers, perhaps a better idea would be to have Afflatus heals additionally "drain" Aether from the nearest target within 25y in the form of 310 potency damage, then the Blood Lily becomes a 310 aoe with no fall off that heals allies for a large amount of potency, similar to Pneuma.

Liturgy's issue for me is the cooldown. I'd reduce the potency of each stack to 300 and the cooldown to 2 minutes, as well as a detonate function, allowing it to line up with mechanics more easily and become flexible.

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I completely agree with the ogcd that generates 1-2 lilies on demand, I think that would be a great addition to whm, I left it out of my proposed rework simply because I think with the extra lily generation through glare/holy I proposed it would make it feel less like something that is direly needed and more like a nice new tools to inject some additional consistency. I do have to disagree with whm needing more lily heals, not that it wouldn't be cool or fun to have them just that they aren't required, at the end of the day a job's healing ability boils down to two things, potency and availability. As long as those two criteria are at a level that satisfies whatever the job needs to do it doesn't really matter how many abilities its spread over. That being said I do think whm does have plenty of room to expand into new lily abilities in the future both currently and with the proposed rework.

I also have to disagree with the misery thing, while its absolutely true that it is currently better to hold lilies for down time, this is basically just because they are a dps loss. As Mortex brought up, the moment misery is dps neutral, or rather the moment using a lily contributes the same potency as casting glare, as long as you don't over cap on lilies or stacks of misery, holding lilies for downtime becomes objectively worse than using them to heal as you are getting the same dps and either way. While also still being able to burn any additional lilies during downtime for the extra misery dps.

As for liturgy I think your proposed fix is also great, having the ability to detonate it would actually be the simplest way to return some much needed control and utility to the ability without fundamentally changing it.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

I also have to disagree with the misery thing, while its absolutely true that it is currently better to hold lilies for down time, this is basically just because they are a dps loss.

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It's because unlike Glare, Blood Lily stacks can be stockpiled while the boss can't be targeted.

I can't use Glare while the boss can't be targeted. But I can blow 3 Lilies and stockpile a Misery. Now it's no longer dps neutral, it's 900 free dps potency I accumulated during a time where I couldn't Glare.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's because unlike Glare, Blood Lily stacks can be stockpiled while the boss can't be targeted.

I can't use Glare while the boss can't be targeted. But I can blow 3 Lilies and stockpile a Misery. Now it's no longer dps neutral, it's 900 free dps potency I accumulated during a time where I couldn't Glare.

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But that is always depending on the boss. And we both know atm p1s too p4s have zero downtime and if they keep this whm will not gain and advantage. And also same can be said for sage and toxikon in downtime. Is free mobility tools with a potency of 990 even in downtime.