Can we stop punishing shield healers for playing together?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

To be fair, two ASTs also don't get value on Neutral sect as much either. Shields would still overwrite each other.
Raw heals and regens are no problem though, but that also applies to SCH.

If double shields weren't nerfed, why would you ever want to bring a non-shield healer? You can just block any lethal damage by stacking 2 shields to guarantee survival (~1000 potency shield single target, ~600 potency on AoE). Doubly so if it crits. Imagine 2 Recitations + Crit Adlo + Deployment. Then, we're left with the point on having more mechanics that just directly deletes the party and make shields useless - which means healing would be largely redundant as no amount of mitigation would do any purpose.

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Sounds more like an encounter issue to me. Honestly FFXIV's encounter design is shit for healers in general.

If you're having trouble making sge/sch work then youre most likely playing the combination wrong. Currently progging DSR as sage/sch with my cohealer and we find that the mitigation is stupid broken and by far its the best comp in there for mitigation checks. I never have to gcd heal at all either as the sage and mechanics that were leaving us almost dead before are only doing about half the damage they used to. If they made gcd shields stack the comp would be over the top broken and everyone would be able to cheese tankbusters/mechanics. Its fine as is.

You could just fuse a form of Emergency Tactics/Pepsis natively into the GCD shield actions.

ie: If you cast a GCD shield on an already-GCD shielded target, it converts automatically into a direct heal for that amount of 'lost' Shield potency instead, based on a formula of how much shield remained when you overwrote the previous shield.

ie,
• No shield applied (other shield remaining potency was larger than your application attempt) — All of your cast's shielding potency converted to healing potency

• Full shield applied (other shield remaining potency was smaller than your application attempt) — Apply a heal equal to the remaining potency of the previous shield when it was overwritten

This prevents GCD shield-stacking but allows for getting full potency out of shield GCDs when they're being flung around and overlapping from multiple sources.

Not really a "strategy" for Savage or anything, but instead just QOL for situations where you don't have comp control, like Alliance Raids.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

You could just fuse a form of Emergency Tactics/Pepsis natively into the GCD shield actions.

ie: If you cast a GCD shield on an already-GCD shielded target, it converts automatically into a direct heal for that amount of 'lost' Shield potency instead, based on a formula of how much shield remained when you overwrote the previous shield.

ie,
• No shield applied (other shield remaining potency was larger than your application attempt) — All of your cast's shielding potency converted to healing potency

• Full shield applied (other shield remaining potency was smaller than your application attempt) — Apply a heal equal to the remaining potency of the previous shield when it was overwritten

This prevents GCD shield-stacking but allows for getting full potency out of shield GCDs when they're being flung around and overlapping from multiple sources.

Not really a "strategy" for Savage or anything, but instead just QOL for situations where you don't have comp control, like Alliance Raids.

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I wonder why this isn't a thing. I would say that what you do is change shields to "If shield is overwritten (or duration ends?) it heals the target for its remaining value"

That IS a fairly significant change though and I feel like you'd really need to rebalance shield healers if something like that would be done. I think it "makes sense", but I also have heard that double shield healer isn't really that bad as-is.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Before EW there was WHM which was a HoT healer, SCH which was a shield healer, and AST which could choose between either. I played WHM and AST, because that allowed me to always fully utilize my kit. If I was on AST and got paired with an SCH, I'd choose diurnal to avoid shield overlap, otherwise nocturnal.

How we have SGE which is a shield healer, and AST is permanently diurnal. Any combination of SGE and SCH will be handicapped because their shields don't stack. SGE is even worse off than SCH due to addersting. I don't know how exactly it works with another shield healer, but chances are the stack is not granted if the shield from Eukrasian Diagnosis is ovewritten by another shield, because that would be exploitable to gain stacks quickly and even out of combat.

Some time ago SE removed the damage type specific debuffs from dps jobs to make more combinations viable. Could something be done about healers so any combination works?

PS. I realize that duty finder content where I'm randomly paired with another healer is easy enough that suboptimal performance won't matter. But I also have a friend who plays SCH and I'd love to be able to use SGE when playing with her without either of us feeling like we're stepping on the other's toes.

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I'm just curious why you think sage/scholar isn't a viable healing combination for savage content?

Just... don't use the handful of skills that overlap or coordinate who is going to use them when.

Sage/scholar was, for a bit, the meta healer comp because of how good sage's pure healing was.

Tbh SGE and SCH besides the GCD shields work well together.

They even have enough pure healing to bypass the need for WHM or AST not to mention that SGE isn't punished for using Addersgall and having an AOE regen every 30s and then another one every 60s.

They can be top tier together if AST wasn't an rDPS/healing monster.

Right now the simplest solution is to have SCH apply Galvanize on all of their shields (including crits) and Sage to apply Cauterize on all of their shields.

Allows for stacking and doesn't allow Sage to overwrite SCH shields with their weaker versions (Weaker Sage shields replace stronger SCH shields).

WHM/AST regens stack so should SCH/SGE shields. The standard, non crit shields shield for less than 10% of a tanks hp. There's no reason to not allow it. Just tone down the crit multiplier.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Right now the simplest solution is to have SCH apply Galvanize on all of their shields (including crits) and Sage to apply Cauterize on all of their shields.

Allows for stacking and doesn't allow Sage to overwrite SCH shields with their weaker versions (Weaker Sage shields replace stronger SCH shields).

WHM/AST regens stack so should SCH/SGE shields. The standard, non crit shields shield for less than 10% of a tanks hp. There's no reason to not allow it. Just tone down the crit multiplier.

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Problem with allowing for shields to stack is that it can invalidate a lot of current mechanics and would be TOO powerful.

I definitely think the better solution would be to have the shield being overwritten heals the person its on for the rest of its value. That ESSENTIALLY does the same thing as allowing stacking while also limited the maximum amount of shields that can be added to a person.

Wierd thing though was dirunal and noct shields of two ast together could all stack and that was stupid broken 4 shields with 7 regen too boot via healios spells aspected spells celestial and neutral spells all stacking even though double ast was boot a thing for raid . like noct field though galvi/alco dont agree with e dig/ pog however e dig/pog wont stop the green crit shield of alco crit where galvi wont stop the e crit shield of e dig just the basic. confusing. Grab an ast though as sage or sch and you still can have chunky broken shields which stacks via netrual helios and asp bene and 2x inter sect lol which makes 0 sense.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Problem with allowing for shields to stack is that it can invalidate a lot of current mechanics and would be TOO powerful.

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This always keeps getting trotted out as an excuse but that's all it really is. It can be circumvented by a small change to the system where a shield can't invalidate a mechanic (debuff), the mechanic is always applied regardless.

But that only really happens in the case of Shields that Crit. And that can also be mitigated by lowering the after crit shield value modifier.

Right now the standard Adlo is less than 10% of a tanks max HP. More like 7-8%. That's not going to invalidate anything. And Sages don't have time to be fishing for shield crits mid fight.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Problem with allowing for shields to stack is that it can invalidate a lot of current mechanics and would be TOO powerful.

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If they simply made it so mechanics that apply debuffs like Damage Down, Doom or Vuln will still apply even if you took 0 damage, I can't see how it would be too powerful.

You can already stack Neutral Asp Helios with a Reci-Spread-Adlo for some rather huge GCD shields every 2 mins, but even if you added Shake, Divine Veil, lots of mitigation and reduced some mechs down to 0 damage, no one does it because it either doesn't work overall or it's simply not worth the waste of resources.
It was used once back in e10s to simplify one mechanic but all it did was buy a few GCD's uptime on something that wasn't even too difficult.

Shields only have value on a mechanic that would otherwise kill you without a shield. There is no mechanic that needs 2x shields. Stacking a ton of crit GCD shields is still less potency than a regular shield and some pure healing.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Problem with allowing for shields to stack is that it can invalidate a lot of current mechanics and would be TOO powerful.

I definitely think the better solution would be to have the shield being overwritten heals the person its on for the rest of its value. That ESSENTIALLY does the same thing as allowing stacking while also limited the maximum amount of shields that can be added to a person.

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Sage/Scholar is viable WITHOUT that as a healing comp for savage. Possibly even ultimate, although I will admit I haven't checked common comps for that to see for sure.

The question that hasn't been answered here is... why is this necessary?

The healers are viable together for all - or at least nearly all - content in the game. Teams run it and it works fine. Why would they make this type of change and MASSIVELY buff that specific comp that is already perfectly functional and perfectly viable?

I think the most reasonable solution would be stacking shields but with a slight delay - meaning you can have double shields but if you take lethal damage but only the first shield counts. How you'd communicate that in the UI is the challenge (and possibly code it, although you should be able to make it a semi-hidden shield-break proc based on the current effects).

I agree sage/sch can be powerful however I rather an ast and or whm cause I really dont like shield chaos and ast shields are nice and stacks and dont overwrite with sch or as sage myself. Tbh even as ast i hated when i had to go dirunal cause sch since am more a shield over regen healer lover.

Also its petty but god I hate when a sch seem to literally try shield fight with me whether in my party or in another party of an alliance. I am handling my tank fine geez e diag crit and crit alco is the same pot anyways only galv and e prog pots are different is weird and unsure why.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I agree sage/sch can be powerful however I rather an ast and or whm cause I really dont like shield chaos and ast shields are nice and stacks and dont overwrite with sch or as sage myself. Tbh even as ast i hated when i had to go dirunal cause sch since am more a shield over regen healer lover.

Also its petty but god I hate when a sch seem to literally try shield fight with me whether in my party or in another party of an alliance. I am handling my tank fine geez e diag crit and crit alco is the same pot anyways only galv and e prog pots are different is weird and unsure why.

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"Shield Chaos" implies that one or both of them is even casting barriers to begin with, and SGE specifically has a negative amount of reasons to want to be using those at all when a SCH is present. Also, I feel like getting a WHM instead of an AST, SCH, or SGE is like getting just the cookie part of the oreo without the filling.

That is fair I know whm aint in a good spot yes but id still take one or ast over another sge or sch. I like to be the one doing migi management even if aint needed for some things but its at least I can focus and not play guess who shielding.

sages shields are strong whether e dig or e prog and panima and hani burst heal which is something sch shields dont even do so am not sure why it seem your saying I should not be playing the job for what its made for, or the sch should be the on shielding if your with sch as sage? Am just asking not having any beef with you. Also on the whm ast part I find it funny though they dont mind regens piling up on each other.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I agree sage/sch can be powerful however I rather an ast and or whm cause I really dont like shield chaos and ast shields are nice and stacks and dont overwrite with sch or as sage myself.

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That just shows a pretty blatant double standard. WHM/AST shields can stack with SCH/SGE shields but SCH / SGE shields can't stack with each other why?

Because "reasons".

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

That is fair I know whm aint in a good spot yes but id still take one or ast over another sge or sch. I like to be the one doing migi management even if aint needed for some things but its at least I can focus and not play guess who shielding.

sages shields are strong whether e dig or e prog and panima and hani burst heal which is something sch shields dont even do so am not sure why it seem your saying I should not be playing the job for what its made for, or the sch should be the on shielding if your with sch as sage? Am just asking not having any beef with you. Also on the whm ast part I find it funny though they dont mind regens piling up on each other.

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SGE doesn't really have a reason to want to use barrier heals because they have so many OGCD heals on top of getting more chip healing for doing DPS that there's almost never a reason to want to use E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis over DPS even in savage. They're exclusively for use during downtime and never during a fight. Not to mention there's no DPS opportunity cost for using Addersgall unlike there is for Aetherflow, meaning I have even less of a reason to be frugal with Ixochole, Kerachole, and the like. I toss those around like candy, and even feel obligated to throw out Druocholes to avoid overcapping on Addersgall and get some MP back even when the party is fully healed.

With a SCH partner, if barriers are needed at all for the fight, which savage does encourage at least in some instances, Recitation + Deployment Adlo is a vastly superior barrier than anything I could muster using GCD barriers. In fact, I even use Krasis to further enhance this on SCH and let them carry any and all barrier responsibilities our party could possibly need.

Just because Barrier Healer is the name of the subrole doesn't actually mean that applying barriers is what the jobs are actually made for. Perhaps that was the intention, but the actual game's design heavily deincentivizes barrier use as SCH and SGE are drowning in OGCD pure healing and regen healing that vastly outperforms barrier healing, and often with much shorter cooldowns than what WHM and AST have.

As for WHM, SCH and SGE both outperform WHM at pure healing without their barriers anyway.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That just shows a pretty blatant double standard. WHM/AST shields can stack with SCH/SGE shields but SCH / SGE shields can't stack with each other why?

Because "reasons".

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Because AST/WHM shields are single target and can't be cast back-to-back, they're cooldowns. It's "allowed" once every 30s, SGE/SCH shield stacking would be "allowed" every 2.X seconds.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Because AST/WHM shields are single target and can't be cast back-to-back

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Laughs in AST Neutral Sect.

Those 30s WHM/AST shields also have 2 charges, are instant cast, and free.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Laughs in AST Neutral Sect.

Those 30s WHM/AST shields also have 2 charges, are instant cast, and free.

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You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

There's an argument that could be made for how important it is to balance around specifically prog vs general casual gameplay experience since the majority of the community doesn't really care about prog, and thus an alternative solution should be found, but it really doesn't matter as it stands because Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis are some of the assiest heals on each healer's respective kit, beating out only Physick and vanilla Diagnosis/Prognosis. The inability to overlap barriers shouldn't matter because you really shouldn't be using them outside of the most dire or niche scenarios, and if you are in that position, only 1 healer should realistically need to do so anyway, which should automatically go to SCH because their barriers are better.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

There's an argument that could be made for how important it is to balance around specifically prog vs general casual gameplay experience since the majority of the community doesn't really care about prog, and thus an alternative solution should be found, but it really doesn't matter as it stands because Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis are some of the assiest heals on each healer's respective kit, beating out only Physick and vanilla Diagnosis/Prognosis. The inability to overlap barriers shouldn't matter because you really shouldn't be using them outside of the most dire or niche scenarios, and if you are in that position, only 1 healer should realistically need to do so anyway, which should automatically go to SCH because their barriers are better.

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e dig crit and alco crit is the same potency what are you talking about:? actually sage may even be stronger on single barriers because zoe+physis and krasis = is mass heal increase potency, If your taking aclo crit to use dt (which imo waste so much time) thats the only slight reason sch aoe shield maybe better to e prog else its actually whack and do remember panima and hamia not only does some migi but they also burst heal for the remaining stacks something sch other wise pathetic shields dont do. sch only had 2 abilities to boost its heal to only what 30% which is illum and disipate ? while zoe which is 50% physis which is 10% and krasis is 20% =80% increase heals that is a major difference.

I really think that spread crit alco via dt is so over rated, without recitation crit alco sch barriers is garbage sorry. Even noct ast could outbeat crit alco also dt shields and finally sages shields are instant while sch has to be casting theirs. I use tons of crit and det on my items and I give some pretty meaty party shields as a sage with e prog so idk something sounds off here.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That just shows a pretty blatant double standard. WHM/AST shields can stack with SCH/SGE shields but SCH / SGE shields can't stack with each other why?

Because "reasons".

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Yeah it really makes 0 sense and its not like intersection of ast is weak. its pretty powerful to that of a regular e dig or alco. Also they dont seem to mind regens stacking like crazy... like ok then. Maybe there be a thing of pure heal/pure shield if they applied the same rule to regens like they did shields maybe you see more 1 pure heal 1 shield healer comp. Overall I just hate having another sage or sch when am a sage period.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

e dig crit and alco crit is the same potency what are you talking about:? actually sage may even be stronger on single barriers because zoe+physis and krasis = is mass heal increase potency, If your taking aclo crit to use dt (which imo waste so much time) thats the only slight reason sch aoe shield maybe better to e prog else its actually whack and do remember panima and hamia not only does some migi but they also burst heal for the remaining stacks something sch other wise pathetic shields dont do. sch only had 2 abilities to boost its heal to only what 30% which is illum and disipate ? while zoe which is 50% physis which is 10% and krasis is 20% =80% increase heals that is a major difference.

I really think that spread crit alco via dt is so over rated, without recitation crit alco sch barriers is garbage sorry. Even noct ast could outbeat crit alco also dt shields and finally sages shields are instant while sch has to be casting theirs. I use tons of crit and det on my items and I give some pretty meaty party shields as a sage with e prog so idk something sounds off here.

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Idk what to tell you. Your math is whack, and I can't fix that. Crit Aldo is much stronger than E. Prognosis and that's not a "my opinion" thing. It's a statistical fact, but play how you want. It's not like being a suboptimal healer matters in any meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Idk what to tell you. Your math is whack, and I can't fix that. Crit Aldo is much stronger than E. Prognosis and that's not a "my opinion" thing. It's a statistical fact, but play how you want. It's not like being a suboptimal healer matters in any meaningful way.

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I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

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If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

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I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.



I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

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If you're using barriers for tankbusters and raidwides, you're doing something wrong. Unless those attacks will literally kill the tank/party (in which case if they are that powerful, OGCD mitigation from you, the tank, and/or DPS is the solution, not barriers) you should never even be thinking about GCD barriers. Why on earth would you drop DPS and waste a chunk of MP for a heal that could otherwise be taken care of by one or more of:

SCH: Embrace, Whispering Dawn, Lustrate, Indomitability, Sacred Soil, Excogitation, Aetherpact, Fey Blessing, Seraph & Consolation, or Protraction
SGE: Kardia, Physis II, Soteria, Druochole, Kerachole, Ixochole, Taurochole, Haima, Panhaima, Holos, Pneuma

All of these actions come at no opportunity cost of MP or DPS, many of them have very short cooldowns, and damage is spread out far enough that you'll never find yourself exhausted of all these resources outside of progging as you try and get a feel for the rhythm of that fight.

By in large, Adlo, Succor, E. Diagnosis, and E. Prognosis should almost never be touched--certainly not in anything below Extreme and even then, what are you really doing if you're relying on these in EX? Are you just sitting on full Addersgall all fight?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

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You're comparing Crit Adlo to E. Diag. If you can get lucky with a crit E. Diag under Zoe, then yes you would in theory provide a larger single target barrier than Crit Adlo. That said, the value of Crit Aldo is not trying to outdo the borderline uselessness of single target barriers, it's spreading that thicker Galvanize effect to the whole party which means you should be comparing Crit Aldo to E. Prognosis, not E. Diagnosis (unless you've found a way to spread E. Diag to the party).

When you use Crit Adlo and Deployment tactics, your increased barrier value is guaranteed on every party member and can ensure that your Adlo is a crit with Recitation, something SGE cannot do. Zoe E. Prognosis could maybe provide slightly more on some party members if it crits, but you have no way of ensuring that. Zoe + E. Prognosis is not enough to out barrier Crit Aldo + Deployment on its own.

Lol I get why your not understanding. ok when I say E diag crit am talking about the 2nd barrier we get call differential diagnosis which is the same potency as a crit alco if not bigger cause zoe/physis/krasis . I dont care if we cant spread e prog other wise sch be pointless because we have hanima and panima which not only does good migi but does burst heals if any stacks of the barrier is Left. So for balance purposes it kinda makes sense why they didnt allow a differential diagnosis to be spread and who knows maybe they may consider it in the future, imagine if we could spread differential diagnosis which also stacks with panima and haima sch really would be even worst off. So again that over rated recitate + aclo + dt thing is still time consuming because you got to cast alco after recite then use dt, mean while I prefer my instant shield casting.

Honestly, my only wish is for them to fix the shield priority system to alleviate this double barrier nuances. Please don't allow weaker shield to overwrite stronger shield under ANY circumstances. I'm not saying they really NEED their shield that badly. It's just annoying to have prep'ed a very solid setup to spread a critical adloquium but then you have that E.Prognosis trigger happy SGE overwriting it with their paper thin barriers.

Part of me wants to think that they purposely made it this way to ensure the less geared healers won't feel 'useless' when they are paired with better geared players for seeing their shields 100% of time not registering or getting overwritten by their better co-healer. (Yes, excuse my paranoia.)

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

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Not in my gameplay. Both still generate around the same amount of shield, varying ever so slightly thanks to low/high rolls.

The only way for SGE's Crit E.Diag barrier to generate larger shield than Critlo's is from getting a critical cast on top of having Zoe active. Let's compare the two a little bit:

• To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.
  
• Meanwhile as a SGE they have to: Physis II (1.1), Zoe(1.5), & Krasis(1.2) stacked together into a single CRITICAL(1.6) E.Diagnosis cast = 1,710.7*2 of shield potency separated into Eukrasian Diagnosis and Differential Diagnosis portions. In the end although they do come out with more barrier potency on a single target, they do not possess any mean to manipulate said shield. Not even Zoe'd E.Prognosis can surpass SCH's Critlo spread potency. And above all? Goodluck trying to fish for that unreliable critical procs. Besides, Zoe synergies way better for Pneuma usage than anything else in their arsenals in lv90 content.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.



I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

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power of krasis/physis/zoe vs illum/dissipate xD . Love your siggy specially the dead dps part!!!!! lol

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Honestly, my only wish is for them to fix the shield priority system to alleviate this double barrier nuances. Please don't allow weaker shield to overwrite stronger shield under ANY circumstances. I'm not saying they really NEED their shield that badly. It's just annoying to have prep'ed a very solid setup to spread a critical adloquium but then you have that E.Prognosis trigger happy SGE overwriting it with their paper thin barriers.

Part of me wants to think that they purposely made it this way to ensure the less geared healers won't feel 'useless' when they are paired with better geared players for seeing their shields 100% of time not registering or getting overwritten by their better co-healer.




Not in my gameplay. Both still generate around the same amount of shield, varying ever so slightly thanks to low/high rolls.

The only way for SGE's Crit E.Diag barrier to generate larger shield than Critlo's is from getting a critical cast on top of having Zoe active.

To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.

Meanwhile as a SGE they have to: Physis II (1.1), Zoe(1.5), & Krasis(1.2) stacked together into a single CRITICAL(1.6) E.Diagnosis cast = 1,710.7*2 of shield potency separated into Eukrasian Diagnosis and Differential Diagnosis portions. In the end although they do come out with more barrier potency on a single target, they do not possess any mean to manipulate said shield. Not even Zoe'd E.Prognosis can surpass SCH's Critlo spread potency. And above all? Goodluck trying to fish for that unreliable critical procs. Besides, Zoe synergies way better for Pneuma usage than anything else in their arsenals in lv90 content.

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yeah and I think its cause we have pani and hami that does nice migi + burst heal for any remaining stacks of shield and can stack with e prog/diag they didnt want sage too op why we didnt have an option to spread differential diag, else it probably let sch very inferior.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Lol I get why your not understanding. ok when I say E diag crit am talking about the 2nd barrier we get call differential diagnosis which is the same potency as a crit alco if not bigger cause zoe/physis/krasis . I dont care if we cant spread e prog other wise sch be pointless because we have hanima and panima which not only does good migi but does burst heals if any stacks of the barrier is Left. So for balance purposes it kinda makes sense why they didnt allow a differential diagnosis to be spread and who knows maybe they may consider it in the future, imagine if we could spread differential diagnosis which also stacks with panima and haima sch really would be even worst off. So again that over rated recitate + aclo + dt thing is still time consuming because you got to cast alco after recite then use dt, mean while I prefer my instant shield casting.

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Imagine if WHM had a spell that was instant cast, cost 0 MP, dealt 1000 potency damage, and healed the party for 1000 potency, applied a 500 potency HoT for 1 minute, and applied a shield worth 200% of the initial heal. Well that doesn't exist, much like the ability to spread Differential diagnosis. So yeah, Deployment Crit Adlo is still superior to Zoe + E. Prognosis.

A good SGE doesn't use barriers in 95% of circumstances regardless of whether they're paired with a SCH or not.

TLDR: Sage crits can be higher than Scholar's because a 50% Zoe Buffed heal can crit.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.

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Couple points of contention:

1) I think your value for Crit is mistaken. Crit is 1.5 times normal, however AhkMourning puts it at 1.4, but it's definitely not the 1.6 value you have.

2) I think your baseline calculation for what exactly is Deployed is also flawed.

I.E:

(Assuming 1.5 crit multiplier) Adlo has a baseline potency of 300. A crit of that is a 450 Potency Galvanize based shield. Catalyze is based off of that crit, so 450 potency x a 1.8 modifier is an 810 potency Catalyze shield.

1260 baseline (450+ 450*1.8), no extra buff if Adlo Crits.
540 baseline (300 + 300*1.8), no extra buff on Adlo non Crit

Knowing that buffs are multiplicative instead of additive we get a buff value for all three (minus Recitation) of 1.452 (1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2).

Post buffs we have

300*1.452 = 435 for first heal, (435*1.8) = 783 for a total of 1218 potency for a non crit
450*1.452 = 653 for first heal, (653*1.8) = 1175 for a total of 1826 potency for a crit

The only thing Recitation does is make the above guaranteed 100%, but it's on a 90s CD.
However, Zoe essentially does the same thing by buffing the heal by 50%, which makes it the same as a Crit, but that higher base value can crit which is why a Zoe enabled crit goes for MUCH HIGHER. That's what fills up a tanks HP bar massively. You're essentially double critting.

All the baseline numbers stay the same because Adlo and E. Diag are the same values. 300 base, 1.8 multiplier.

However, Sage "Buffed multiplier (1.1 *1.5 * 1.2) is 1.98 as opposed to the SCH 1.452 and they don't have to lose the fairy to do it.

300 * 1.98 = 594 for the first heal, (594 * 1.8) = 1069 for a total of 1663.8 potency for a non crit.
450 * 198 = 891 for the first heal, (891 * 1.8) = 1603 for a total potency of 2495 potency for a crit.

SCHOLAR:

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1218 potency for a non crit
1826 potency for a crit

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SAGE:

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1664 potency for a non crit.
2495 potency for a crit.

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Then you add the 20% Maim and Mend bonus on top of that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Imagine if WHM had a spell that was instant cast, cost 0 MP, dealt 1000 potency damage, and healed the party for 1000 potency, applied a 500 potency HoT for 1 minute, and applied a shield worth 200% of the initial heal. Well that doesn't exist, much like the ability to spread Differential diagnosis. So yeah, Deployment Crit Adlo is still superior to Zoe + E. Prognosis.

A good SGE doesn't use barriers in 95% of circumstances regardless of whether they're paired with a SCH or not.

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A person can play a job how they feel to and does not have to please entitled people. It is not about being a good or bad person at the job smh. You cant tell someone to use or not use something. pani and hani stacks with e prog or e diag and give a burst heal of any remain stack which makes it still better than the so call crit alco. Who complaints about free heals anyways? The burst heals from pan and hami can be a life saver if well timed.

Also a good sch will learn to shield and not wait until damage already happen which most of them tend to do.

Also finally Ill take instant shield casting vs time casting shields and have access to my skills and not be locked out of them for using a clunky pet. Ill go far to say i rather play clunky whm or take one as a co healer over sch cause if you cant tell I dont like sch period.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

A person can play a job how they feel to and does not have to please entitled people. It is not about being a good or bad person at the job smh. You cant tell someone to use or not use something. pani and hani stacks with e prog or e diag and give a burst heal of any remain stack which makes it still better than the so call crit alco. Who complaints about free heals anyways? The burst heals from pan and hami can be a life saver if well timed.

Also a good sch will learn to shield and not wait until damage already happen which most of them tend to do.

Also finally Ill take instant shield casting vs time casting shields and have access to my skills and not be locked out of them for using a clunky pet. Ill go far to say i rather play clunky whm or take one as a co healer over sch cause if you cant tell I dont like sch period.

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Haima and Panhaima aren't a part of the discussion though as they have no bearing on E. Diagnosis or E. Prognosis. If they only worked on targets with E. Diag/E. Prog, that would be a different story, but they don't. You can still apply them after a SCH has used Deployment Crit Adlo if needed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone MUST perform optimally or not at all, but we're talking about whether or not something is a problem in regards to the lack of barrier stackability between Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis, and my point is that it's not a problem because these barrier heals are largely irrelevant. What would be a problem would be if Biolysis and E. Dosis III didn't stack, because that would severely impact a very important part of SCH's and SGE's performance. But with barriers, you don't have to use them and realistically shouldn't need to especially in casual content. Any actual use of barriers is almost entirely superfluous and unnecessary, so you're not actually losing something if you and your cohealer are overwriting each others barriers--at least, not losing something as a result of that interaction. What is being lost is a result of poor decision-making on the part of the healers for using those heals in the first place, but even that doesn't really matter because optimization isn't a requirement.

And the thing is, if you're not interested in optimization, why does it matter anyway? Who cares whether or not the barriers stack if your goal is to just not care about performance and play the way you want? It's not going to kill your party and it's not going to force you to play your job any differently than you want to. Use your E. Prognosis anyway and ignore the lack of stackablility because it's not going to affect you regardless. If you care because you want perform better, then the answer is to stop using E. Prognosis outside of incredibly niche situations and let your SCH cohealer perform group barrier responsibilities if it's actually needed.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

snip:

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Apologies, I assumed a x1.6 for it is a multiplier close to a healer’s BiS. But we can go with 1.5 & your calculations for now. They are still mostly on point though. I omitted the raw cure potencies and jank of multiplicative numbers because mobile posting is terrible, thus only included shield potency in my post.

In the end, I was just trying to convey that at its base, E.Diagnosis & Adloquium are just the same button with different paint. They are not general way superior or inferior to one another. You have a big shield that you can spread should you wish to or just let it be vs You have an even bigger shield that’s limited to only shielding 1 target. This is still not including other sort of real practice nuances like whether the cast is actually needed or just fluff, dissipation murders fairy, losing buffed Pneuma for Zoe’d inflexible barrier, etc.

I just failed to see how one could think E.Diagnosis could generate larger shield vs Adlo assuming both have 0 buff effects from any sources, is healing the same tank, and has exactly same healer gears.

EDIT: Also another point to add, the downside of Zoe vs Recitation is still of course, the critical shield bonus. Zoe does not guarantee Differential Diagnosis portion which would normally doubles the overall shield value like Recitation do. Which in turn makes Non-critical Zoe'd E.Diagnosis' overall shield still weaker than Recit-Adlo's.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Haima and Panhaima aren't a part of the discussion though as they have no bearing on E. Diagnosis or E. Prognosis. If they only worked on targets with E. Diag/E. Prog, that would be a different story, but they don't. You can still apply them after a SCH has used Deployment Crit Adlo if needed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone MUST perform optimally or not at all, but we're talking about whether or not something is a problem in regards to the lack of barrier stackability between Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis, and my point is that it's not a problem because these barrier heals are largely irrelevant. What would be a problem would be if Biolysis and E. Dosis III didn't stack, because that would severely impact a very important part of SCH's and SGE's performance. But with barriers, you don't have to use them and realistically shouldn't need to especially in casual content. Any actual use of barriers is almost entirely superfluous and unnecessary, so you're not actually losing something if you and your cohealer are overwriting each others barriers--at least, not losing something as a result of that interaction. What is being lost is a result of poor decision-making on the part of the healers for using those heals in the first place, but even that doesn't really matter because optimization isn't a requirement.

And the thing is, if you're not interested in optimization, why does it matter anyway? Who cares whether or not the barriers stack if your goal is to just not care about performance and play the way you want? It's not going to kill your party and it's not going to force you to play your job any differently than you want to. Use your E. Prognosis anyway and ignore the lack of stackablility because it's not going to affect you regardless. If you care because you want perform better, then the answer is to stop using E. Prognosis outside of incredibly niche situations and let your SCH cohealer perform group barrier responsibilities if it's actually needed.

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I handle my healing well and have 0 complaints from anyone friends or even randoms never seem to complain about my healing play style. Also fyi I use E diag far more than E prog and barely use E prog or not at all because kera/ixo and physis is very busted and takes care of any damage easily , am just stating people over rate that deploy crit alco way too much than is necessary to E prog comparison overall single shield wise sage wins even if party shield wise sch wins. Big deal.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

I handle my healing well and have 0 complaints from anyone friends or even randoms never seem to complain about my healing play style. Also fyi I use E diag far more than E prog and barely use E prog or not at all because kera/ixo and physis is very busted and takes care of any damage easily , am just stating people over rate that deploy crit alco way too much than is necessary to E prog comparison overall single shield wise sage wins even if party shield wise sch wins. Big deal.

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Cool, doesn't mean you're playing optimally. E. Diagnosis is one of SGE's most useless actions. The bar is really not high for being a competent healer in any content, and you can misuse unnecessary heals all day without really seeing repercussions. Could your performance be better? Absolutely. Does it need to be to do your job correctly? Not at all.

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

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I am more salty that we have to spend the same amount of time just to put 1 target to sleep vs an AoE sleep that the casters have. The 200 extra MP use isn’t even justifiable imho considering MP management is almost nadir to healer gameplay as of now. We can afford to have that instead of the casters (Yes… give it to us), but who are we to hope for nice things even for once? Such is the fate of 3rd rate citizen lol.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Cool, doesn't mean you're playing optimally. E. Diagnosis is one of SGE's most useless actions. The bar is really not high for being a competent healer in any content, and you can misuse unnecessary heals all day without really seeing repercussions. Could your performance be better? Absolutely. Does it need to be to do your job correctly? Not at all.

While we're on the topic of discussing anti-synergy between completely irrelevant actions, can we also talk about how bad it is that your co-healer's Repose as well as any caster DPS's Sleep can increase the enemy's resistance to your Repose as well?

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useless to you not to me i love seeing a big 0 on me or others which may even nullify knock backs or block some mechanics2. Judging someone for something they use just cause you dont like it does not entitle you to assume a person is bad or good.

Do what you want but just stop assuming things you know nothing about a person. You always have such a nasty attitude to anyone who dont see your way. Its not burger king.