"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, I have high levels of anxiety around new people, I am quiet, the typical "book reading nerd who only has a few friends and gets bullied", yet I have very few issues in DF, or with tanking.

I'm sure it varies from person to person, but I've never really had issues in mmos outside of having to recruit for savage statics, or apply for them. Those are anxiety inducing to me, but I've mostly had good experiences.

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Yeah that's what i say, i dont not put the blame on those people they have a condition they deal with it but like if you have a phobia or anything related to people it comes from you, you know that already so why say that everyone else is the problem ?
That's the thing that bugged me in the initial message.

If I may, considering there is a lack of squadrons/trusts from 61- 70, do HoH. That's the only content that you can either run solo or in a group that doesn't really require pulling any group of mobs at a time and you can go at your own pace if you go in solo.. I personally am of the opinion that once you hit 61 - 80, you should be wall to wall pulling in group content because at that point you should be comfortable enough in your role to do so. If not, then the alternative is to do leveling on your own and avoid other people which is perfectly fine, but I personally do not like it when I get a single pull tank in any of my groups past HW content because I have an expectation at that point that you know how to pull multiple mobs at once since you've had an ample amount of time to get used to tanking by that point. Plus, I do like when tanks pull big and all the big numbers show up when doing AoEs, gives me a good rush of dopamine! ^.^

@Kolaina

Wow, snap judgements much lol.

I don't like duty finder because I'm an old old lady who remembers when people in MMOs had to work together and treat each other well because the only folks they could party with were on their server. If they got a reputation as a dick, no one would play with them. DF makes it much easier to treat people badly and get away with it.

I'm lucky I don't need to put up with the drama and bad behaviour I've seen in DF because I have enough friends and FC mates to run content with.

No phobias, just prefer to have fun and chill with my friends. We don't do drama when we run roulette. Sometimes we go slow. Sometimes we do stupid big pulls - yes Mt Gulg, looking at you. But it has become clear to us over the eleven years we have played this game that it grows increasingly more pleasant to stick to our own little group than try to interact with strangers. It makes us sad that it's so, but that is our experience.

It bothers me too that you find it necessary to belittle me and my point - that the duty finder can be toxic for some people - by making personal attacks. If you're that concerned about my state of mind, why don't you try and be a bit more sympathetic about this 'phobia' I supposedly have? I imagine that if I did have a genuine problem in that area and somehow found the courage to speak up, your words would have been very cruel and vicious

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Prove what point? They presented counter arguments.

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I disagreed, ergo I'm bad

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

The AI parties are then capable of multiple pulls.

Just because you don't value your time doesn't mean others also don't.

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Echoing this as someone who has moved over to exclusively doing Trusts for 4-man stuff simply because of how absolutely horrendous the average skill level of players has gotten across the board - and how many people coddle, enable, and grief alongside these same underperformers who refuse to even consider the fact they're playing with other people in a team-oriented game, and thus never make attempts to improve. Any advice given for such improvement is met with far more toxicity and tantrums than I've ever seen a "toxic elitist" throw at people.

Thancred can handle big pulls more easily than half the tanks I see lately, and Alphinaud can heal through them just as easily despite having a butchered SCH setup. They don't AoE but that doesn't "necessitate" single baby pulls, that's still a personal player choice.

If an extremely simple AI program can manage big pulls with minimal issue despite barely even using cooldowns let alone AoE, then there's really no excuse for a player to claim they're incapable of doing the same with far more utility at their disposal.

Get better.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

It bothers me too that you find it necessary to belittle me and my point

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You said you and your friends avoid df because its toxic. That would insinuate its more wide spread than the odd isolated incident here and there. But I’m belittling? No. You just have this belief things are worse than they are. Refraining from participating with the df community while simultaneously staying in your echo chamber, does nothing to heal your previous experience and fix any misconceptions you have about the df community

Is this another tank pulling thread?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/13ATyLQB0rLVzG/200w.gif

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Is this another tank pulling thread?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/13ATyLQB0rLVzG/200w.gif

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Yep. Unfortunately it is.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I don't have expectations.

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Maybe not, but this isn't a single player game and the rest of the party probably does. I'm not advocating being an ass, just pointing out that if you play in multi-player content you need to consider others as well. For the record, I always ask at the beginning of content what people want, if the healer wants small pulls they get small pulls, most don't though.

I see you mention that you're old school MMO, well that makes two of us. Back in the glory days when everyone knew everybody what happened to players who couldn't keep up? They got left out, that's what. Expecting everyone else to play at a pace that's much too slow for them is just as bad as expecting everyone to clear in 12 minutes, it's just the opposite end of the horseshoe. If DF content is a problem because people generally think you're slow then buckle up and get your arse in gear, if you're frustrated that it takes too long all the time then chill out. It's the same problem, but from a different perspective. The vast majority of players get along fine in the middle ground, that I would argue, is the expectation.

The tanks role is to pull at a pace that keeps everyone happy, if that's a bit much, for whatever reason, then just play as a DPS. Tanking isn't for everyone and that's ok.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

What I don't do is treat someone badly because they're not as good as I am at something. Or even just not good at the thing at all. If I behaved like that in my job, I'd soon find myself without a job. How much more then, should I behave like a decent human being in a game?

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Except this isn't a job. There's no professional courtesy here.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Personally I've always been an advocate for pulling at a pace the healer can handle, instead of just unilaterally setting the pace to always be fast, if the healer can barely handle 3 mobs then you pull 3 mobs, if they can handle 3 mobs somewhat well but struggle with 6 then do 6 when you have more cooldowns and pull 3 when you have less, etc.

While you're not expected to have sprint popped all the way through you are pretty much expected to not be standing around unless you're typing or if there's some other reason like the dog needs to be let out or you're waiting for a party member to finish their cutscene before pulling.

That being said, majority of pugs are fairly tolerant of a slower pace, but don't be surprised if someone asks you to pull more mobs if you're only single pulling while the healer isn't having any issues with your hp

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I heavily question your definition of fast with this example. 3 Mobs (which is just one pull) is slow and if a healer can't handle healing me through that (which they don't need to heal because that won't hurt at all) then there are much larger problems at play.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I heavily question your definition of fast with this example. 3 Mobs (which is just one pull) is slow and if a healer can't handle healing me through that (which they don't need to heal because that won't hurt at all) then there are much larger problems at play.

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Fair point, healers who can barely handle 3 mobs are rare but they do exist, and what you do in regards to that kind of depends on the dungeon itself and also on what tank you're playing

My point was more that it's up to the tank to assess the healer and guesstimate how much they can handle, and pull at that level to make the run as fast as possible while also not causing any wipes

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You said you and your friends avoid df because its toxic. That would insinuate its more wide spread than the odd isolated incident here and there. But I’m belittling? No. You just have this belief things are worse than they are. Refraining from participating with the df community while simultaneously staying in your echo chamber, does nothing to heal your previous experience and fix any misconceptions you have about the df community

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That's great then. Glad we're on the same page. So presumably you will be sympathetic and encouraging next time you get a tank who's pulling a bit slower than you prefer, right. Try and coax them into pulling more and improving their skills yeah. Instead of telling them to 'do it or else' like these (apparently mostly imaginary) toxic people do?

As a bit more clarification, there is just as much toxicity (in my experience) on the other side. I'm all for balance, but I'd much prefer we tried to err on the side of courtesy. When another player tries to give polite and helpful advice, 'you don't pay my sub' is not an acceptable response.

I'm not sure why asking people to be respectful of each other causes such a backlash. It's very sad

I'm so confused. Op tanks in all the games for his friends, yet waits 'till trusts in FFXIV before stepping out and tanking DF runs and complaining about pacing?

G8 b8 m8?

As long as I can use my aoes as a dps I dont mind the pace. However if you are only pulling one group at a time and I'm doing more damage with my single target attacks then something is wrong. You are not using your dps to their full potential.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

That's great then. Glad we're on the same page. So presumably you will be sympathetic and encouraging next time you get a tank who's pulling a bit slower than you prefer, right. Try and coax them into pulling more and improving their skills yeah. Instead of telling them to 'do it or else' like these (apparently mostly imaginary) toxic people do?

As a bit more clarification, there is just as much toxicity (in my experience) on the other side. I'm all for balance, but I'd much prefer we tried to err on the side of courtesy. When another player tries to give polite and helpful advice, 'you don't pay my sub' is not an acceptable response.

I'm not sure why asking people to be respectful of each other causes such a backlash. It's very sad

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It’s a simple “more plz” from me with a few jumps in the direction of continuing forward. I generally don’t have a keyboard in front of me. Not everything needs a demanding tone or a trolly way of forcing them.
If they don’t, I’ll begrudgingly get up, grab my keyboard and explain it’s not worth me holying 2 or 3 mobs and I’ll keep them alive if they pull bigger.
As for your toxicity comment, yes I experience that constantly. Can’t try to give anyone a hand. As soon as you suggest they aren’t doing something correctly, people get all out of sorts. Get called toxic all the time or accused of harassing them. Over trivial things. Had a tank try and kick me in the latest nier raid for asking them to turn Hansels exposed side towards middle so I could assize. Asking to allow me to heal without taking damage was enough to set this guy off. But I brushed him off and he left, taking the penalty.
I’m of the mindset that at the end of the day, none of these people matter. So it’s a bad run. There will be many good or uneventful ones that over shadow that rare bad experience

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Fair point, healers who can barely handle 3 mobs are rare but they do exist, and what you do in regards to that kind of depends on the dungeon itself and also on what tank you're playing

My point was more that it's up to the tank to assess the healer and guesstimate how much they can handle, and pull at that level to make the run as fast as possible while also not causing any wipes

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If a healer can’t handle 3 mobs, they need to stop. Figure out why. Bad gear? Don’t know their class? Fix it before they go back to healing

You can handle normal pulls with 3 members (2dps + tank or 2dps + heal)
so what's the point of a fourth member and a third role if not to wall to wall

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Originally Posted by weebtext

I could never imagine why anybody would not want to feel the sheer euphoria of clearing the massive pulls in Mt Gulg.

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In my experience it was only ever euphoric in a premade group lmao
Most satisfying aoe spam ever...

But it was also frickin terrifying with pug tanks and healers because I kept running into groups where the healer couldn't handle it and had one where the tank kept charging in as soon as we got back before we were even gathered and the healer still definitely could not handle it and it took three wipes for them to slow down and PHEW boy that was hilarious but also deeply unfortunate lmao

Anyway when I was leveling I'd usually do like a double or triple at the start depending on the dungeon to see if my healer is Awake and then go from there. I don't like tanking wall to wall pulls with a healer I don't know to begin with, but I will say even I definitely find single pulls far too slow.

It all comes down to the group in the end. Which is why I mostly only do dungeons with friends at this point anyway.

The healer is the one with an issue becuase your single pulls mean we are stuck using one skill the entire run because you take barely any damage worth healing. So they get a very very boring run thanks to your pacing.
If you are content going at slow npc speed, stick to trust honestly. Healers should not be rude about it but it wouldnt kill you to double pull so the healer is not wanting to shoot themselves.

Stop trying to justify playing poorly. Pull to the wall, do your job.

Going to avoid engaging with what ought to be the case for party etiquette, simply chiming in to mention there's some rough cusp levels post 50 with regards to item level shooting up from 148 to 270 and so on that might leave some blameless players understandably suffering as the 'weak link' in the group despite the scaled down stats. Hopefully the upcoming stat squish will smooth out the gulf.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

OK, but that is still not "the way the devs intended" and just your personal way of dealing with tanking.

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^ And solely by no longer playing a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game, at that...

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Originally Posted by Omedon

I guess what I was getting at with that "intended" line probably should have been phrased more as "not wrong." It is not wrong to play the dungeon one pull at a time, the way the AI parties flatout necessitate, and it is absolutely not worthy of rudeness or abuse. I think we can all agree on that.

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By that warrant, though, neither is it wrong for the other 3+ people in your party not to wish to have their time wasted according to your playstyle preference. Each preference is equally reasonable and equally invasive, so why not simply let the majority decide?

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The healer is the one with an issue becuase your single pulls mean we are stuck using one skill the entire run because you take barely any damage worth healing. So they get a very very boring run thanks to your pacing.
If you are content going at slow npc speed, stick to trust honestly. Healers should not be rude about it but it wouldnt kill you to double pull so the healer is not wanting to shoot themselves.

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Two things:

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

2) Again, if there were trusts in the 60's, I'd already be in the clear of never ever queueing to play with live players. Trust me (get it?!) in another 11 total job levels, y'all will almost certainly never see me tanking for you ever again!

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Two things:

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

2) Again, if there were trusts in the 60's, I'd already be in the clear of never ever queueing to play with live players. Trust me (get it?!) in another 11 total job levels, y'all will almost certainly never see me tanking for you ever again!

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1) No healer wants to be bored out of their mind in a slow roulette where they're spamming one button over and over again, without doing their primary job function (as it's not needed). You are giving no one a "free ride" or a "gift". Get over that mindset, it makes you come off incredibly egotistical.

2) Do HoH. No one cares about pull sizes in a place with no structure to it beyond "kill enough stuff to pop the portal open to the next floor". Do not inflict yourself on DF queues if you refuse to adhere to the expectation of double/big pulls past level 55.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

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Fortunately, virtually no-one in this game shares your contrived personal standards for what a good tank is.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

2) Again, if there were trusts in the 60's, I'd already be in the clear of never ever queueing to play with live players. Trust me (get it?!) in another 11 total job levels, y'all will almost certainly never see me tanking for you ever again!

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It's sad that you choose this path instead of simply learning to work as a team-member and play the game at a quasi-functional level. It literally only takes a handful of button inputs; it's just not worth handicapping yourself this hard over minor emotional quibbles.

Healies getting bored? Time for a bio break

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Originally Posted by Omedon

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

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I have levelled every healer multiple times across various characters and the absolute last thing in the world I want to be is "bored" in a dungeon and only spamming the same 3 damage spells over and over again. The price of your "free" ride is a run that takes 30 or 40 minutes instead of 15.

"Most stressful role." Please.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Two things:

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

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If I’m bored, I’m not having fun. In this case / example, i am not being engaged enough. While you should make it easier on your healer, you also shouldn’t be putting your healer to sleep.
How to really treat your healer; decent sized pulls (more than a pack at a time), mitigate, don’t step in the bad, know the tank busters and use your big cool downs on those specifically, and don’t act like you’re the boss. Do these things and you’ll have a happy healer.
However. If you pull small, waste time, get hit by obvious telegraphed ales and busters, i will not enjoy myself.
Why is it, we are in here, as tanks, trying so hard to justify small pulls. If you can’t handle it, be a dps. Let people who want to tank, and their healers handle the pace of the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Two things:

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

2) Again, if there were trusts in the 60's, I'd already be in the clear of never ever queueing to play with live players. Trust me (get it?!) in another 11 total job levels, y'all will almost certainly never see me tanking for you ever again!

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I understand that you do not have the option at 60, so I sympathise there.

But no a bored healer is not a great compliment if I am bored because you do not present me with anything to do. Healers enjoy healing, arguments over how much we should dps aside! We WANT something to do, be it heal or dps. And one pack pulls is not giving us anything engaging to participate in at all, we don't need to heal much at all and the dps is lacklustre because there are so few mobs. It means we have a very boring time and if you end up dead because I stopped even paying attention don't be shocked. It's not out of malice, its that the dungeon is so NOT engaging that I am probably watching youtube on my second monitor.

I am not looking for a "free" ride, I am here to do content not have myself be slowly walked through the dungeon by a tank at snails pace. It is nice you don't want to stress your healer, checking with them first before pulling larger is a simple courtesy I know many healers appreciate! But the way you play is letting YOU enjoy yourself at your healers expense, give us something to do. Take some damage so I actually have to use something other than malefic! If I myself am tanking and I see a sprout healer I will often double check they are happy with larger pulls, sometimes I forget and if its a wipe I apologise for overwhelming them and adjust accordingly, often times they want to try again and it is great to see! You play your role because you enjoy what it entails no? Healing is a healers bread and butter, don't take it from us! We have nothing else to do beyond spam the same button the whole time otherwise..

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Originally Posted by Omedon

1) A bored healer is a good tank's greatest compliment. My giving you as "free" a ride as possible is a gift I strive to give, in thanks for playing the most stressful role and moving the queue along!

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I think this guy is trolling us.

If you're not, you're being very mean to your healers by giving them nothing to do. You're confusing "lack of mistakes" with "lack of activity." Not standing in the fire? Maybe good for your healer. Not dropping below 90% HP? Horribly boring.

Stick to the bots or play games that are tuned for one pull at a time.

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Originally Posted by weebtext

I could never imagine why anybody would not want to feel the sheer euphoria of clearing the massive pulls in Mt Gulg.

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When you have a tank who can't handle them or dps who can't burn them down, you feel the "sheer euphoria" of the entire party dying instead of clearing.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

When you have a tank who can't handle them or dps who can't burn them down, you feel the "sheer euphoria" of the entire party dying instead of clearing.

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Dying isn't the end of the world, it honestly makes the feeling of clearing it even stronger. Never be afraid to wipe!

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Originally Posted by weebtext

Dying isn't the end of the world, it honestly makes the feeling of clearing it even stronger. Never be afraid to wipe!

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I'm never afraid to wipe, but when a tank does the same big pull three times and wipes everyone, the party can't progress and the dungeon comes to a halt. That's when the ability to reassess and adjust comes into play. But tanks are resistant to do that because they've been conditioned that they always have to pull the maximum size and can't ever pull anything less. Those types of extremes in thinking just don't work in PUG situations.

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Originally Posted by weebtext

Dying isn't the end of the world, it honestly makes the feeling of clearing it even stronger. Never be afraid to wipe!

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A thousand times this! Death means next to nothing in this game. Especially in dungeons. Pretty much any time I wipe on a pull, my immediate instinct is to do the exact same pull again. Some of the enemies may have died, all of our abilities are now off cooldown, whatever special thing was there is now likely known.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm never afraid to wipe, but when a tank does the same big pull three times and wipes everyone, the party can't progress and the dungeon comes to a halt. That's when the ability to reassess and adjust comes into play. But tanks are resistant to do that because they've been conditioned that they always have to pull the maximum size and can't ever pull anything less. Those types of extremes in thinking just don't work in PUG situations.

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I've seen the massive first pull to the boss in Mt Gulg be done in a PUG situation where the tank was lv 79 while the rest of us were 80. We wiped three times but we still did it, because that absolute unit of a tank kept going and never gave up on that pull. We all believed in that pull, we all achieved that pull and let me tell you it felt absolutely amazing.

Try to have some faith in your parties instead of worrying so much about the dungeon halting, live a little!

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Originally Posted by weebtext

I've seen the massive first pull to the boss in Mt Gulg be done in a PUG situation where the tank was lv 79 while the rest of us were 80. We wiped three times but we still did it, because that absolute unit of a tank kept going and never gave up on that pull. We all believed in that pull, we all achieved that pull and let me tell you it felt absolutely amazing.

Try to have some faith in your parties instead of worrying so much about the dungeon halting, live a little!

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Big pulls that make you wipe three times is just as bad as single pull runs. The idea of big pulls is to make the run go faster if the party wipes to a pull like that then it's time to reassess otherwise it's just a waste of time. 3 wipes just sounds painful. It's not about living a little its about respecting what everyone wants in the party.

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Originally Posted by Anya_Synia

Big pulls that make you wipe three times is just as bad as single pull runs. The idea of big pulls is to make the run go faster if the party wipes to a pull like that then it's time to reassess otherwise it's just a waste of time. 3 wipes just sounds painful. It's not about living a little its about respecting what everyone wants in the party.

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Sounds like what everyone wanted in that party was for that tank to succeed at that pull.

if the rest of the party wasn't okay with attempting another big pull, they probably would've said something ;)

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Originally Posted by Anya_Synia

Big pulls that make you wipe three times is just as bad as single pull runs. The idea of big pulls is to make the run go faster if the party wipes to a pull like that then it's time to reassess otherwise it's just a waste of time. 3 wipes just sounds painful. It's not about living a little its about respecting what everyone wants in the party.

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"The idea of big pulls" is to have fun. Consequently they are also faster than single pulls.
Nothing more fun than overcoming something in real time with other people.