The Single Most powerful *thing* in FFXIV?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Pretty sure it’d be something stupid like Godbert or Julyan I’m afraid, lol. Or - ugh - Zenos * sick face emoji * lol

Wouldn’t Dynamis-Powered Meteion be a serious contender? It practically destroyed an entire universe by causing The Final Days, since based on what Pupu says during the Hildibrand quests even distant planets were heavily affected. I can’t think of any other entity in FFXIV that has power/influence on such a cosmic scale (again, besides something stupid like Godbert or Tataru lol).

Though, part of that reach was because Meteion isn’t a single entity but a collective spread across the cosmos, so it’s not exactly the ‘single most powerful entity’ when it’s abilities are based on a shared/collective consciousness

---

Hate to say it, but Zenos - whilst definitely not top of the list - probably would be on the list.

I mean, in that final dual with him he was using Shinryu attacks, arguably even more effectively than Shinryu itself did (he was essentially Shinryu in Garlean form). And thanks to that, he almost killed the Warrior of Light - and probably would've if not for the residual dynamis heals we were able to access during the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Pretty sure it’d be something stupid like Godbert or Julyan I’m afraid, lol. Or - ugh - Zenos * sick face emoji * lol

---

If you finished the questline you know they are not as invulnerable as they appear. They do still have a weakness. And although it might be hard to trigger that weakness, its surely not impossible.

Zenos on that is diffirent since he used the power through a catalist (himself) and charged it with some strong beings. Its not that diffirent to how ultima was being casted. And that also instantly makes a clear limit.

Zenos had only 1 desire to keep himself alive, which if that desire was gone (you died), he would instantly die and be absorbed through dynamis. Dynamis is on that (because of being pure power) excessively strong. But it suffers from 1 weakness: hope is enough to charge up dynamis (and therefor take it away). You only need 1 thing strong enough (similar to meteon) to already weaken her enough.

The problem is we dont know what zodiark would do when completed. It surely takes all the aether away from the planet, but we dont know what it will do in space. Zodiark was powerfull enough to block the effects from dynamis even in an incompleted state. But weak at the other aether.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

The problem is we dont know what zodiark would do when completed. It surely takes all the aether away from the planet, but we dont know what it will do in space. Zodiark was powerfull enough to block the effects from dynamis even in an incompleted state. But weak at the other aether.

---

I didn’t actually consider this but it’s definitely a good point. Zodiark was conceived as a being powerful enough to revert the final days and/or restore the ‘world’ to its original state. While they were only thinking of their own ‘star’, surely Zodiark would need power that can stretch across the cosmos (at least to some extent) to actually be able to achieve these goals? If it was fully awakened then, couldn’t it (assumedly) collapse and re-arranged the universe to see its goals to fruition?

As you say though, biggest weakness is that of any primal, but probably multiplied by 10 because of the size/scope of its abilities. Tempering nearby planets, requiring enormous amounts of aether to materialise, being tied to the consciousness of the Summoners (i.e if they forget their purpose so does Zodiark, or at least I think that’s how it worked).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

I didn’t actually consider this but it’s definitely a good point. Zodiark was conceived as a being powerful enough to revert the final days and/or restore the ‘world’ to its original state. While they were only thinking of their own ‘star’, surely Zodiark would need power that can stretch across the cosmos (at least to some extent) to actually be able to achieve these goals? If it was fully awakened then, couldn’t it (assumedly) collapse and re-arranged the universe to see its goals to fruition?

As you say though, biggest weakness is that of any primal, but probably multiplied by 10 because of the size/scope of its abilities. Tempering nearby planets, requiring enormous amounts of aether to materialise, being tied to the consciousness of the Summoners (i.e if they forget their purpose so does Zodiark, or at least I think that’s how it worked).

---

Zodiark's first summoning created a shield to prevent the Final Days from continuing. The second repaired and reseeded Etheirys, and only Etheirys. The moons of course being considered part of Etheirys for practical purposes, them being part of the same system. The rest of the universe (insofar as we are aware, anyway) was left a desolate wasteland by the Endsong continuing uninterrupted.

Zodiark's purpose was set by a combination of the intent when he was summoned and the will of the many souls within him. This is why he continued to function in his original role as a protector even after losing his heart and all of his summoners being dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

The problem is we dont know what zodiark would do when completed. It surely takes all the aether away from the planet, but we dont know what it will do in space. Zodiark was powerfull enough to block the effects from dynamis even in an incompleted state. But weak at the other aether.

---

We're told Zodiark did not siphon aether from the planet. He instead utilized the aether of the ancient souls within him, with the caveat being he would not completely drain them. This was possible due to the sheer volume of aether made available to him by those sacrificed. He could draw from them without tapping into their spiritual aether, which meant their souls weren't at risk of erasure.

Of note, I may direct people for a moment to the in-game Zodiark fight. It's a poor showing to be sure, but we're dealing with an incomplete Zodiark under the control of someone who A.) is completely insane; and B.) has zero experience piloting a primal. It's also important to keep in mind the dark primal was still channeling vast quantities of aether to maintain the shield around Etheirys even as Fandaniel forced him to fight the WoL. To add to this, we're informed the souls inside of Zodiark were fighting back against Fandaniel that whole time. Odds are good what we saw was a fraction of a fraction of what he could do if whole and properly directed. If nothing else, we are shown that he possesses the capacity for some fantastically destructive magic and weaponized creation. I'd wager he very well might be in the running for the most powerful thing overall. Even fragmented, his raw aether levels alone are well past the point of incomprehensibility.

In terms of raw power it's obviously Zodiark. He was made to be the Ancients' collective concept of God. And every time he's been beaten, it's due to having his power reduced / being attacked with attacks conceptually created to beat god. Kind of like the Rune of Death and the Elden Beast in Elden Ring. Something something for the World of Man to mean anything Man must steer it something something Gaius, Thordan, and Venat beliefs etc.

In terms of actual power, it's still Alexander. Turns out, time travel within the setting is instrumental in us winning. Both in SHB and in EW. It's a power that apparently the Ascians did not possess or think to try to attempt. And apparently no other civilizations out in space either. If Alexander has the knowledge and will to, he can go back in time and kill any of the most powerful things as fledglings. Something something, cop out answer. Something something, blame the writers not me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

In terms of actual power, it's still Alexander. Turns out, time travel within the setting is instrumental in us winning. Both in SHB and in EW. It's a power that apparently the Ascians did not possess or think to try to attempt. And apparently no other civilizations out in space either. If Alexander has the knowledge and will to, he can go back in time and kill any of the most powerful things as fledglings. Something something, cop out answer. Something something, blame the writers not me.

---

Alexander was most certainly the only thing in the setting capable of reliably and precisely enacting time travel, yeah. Elidibus only knew where to send the WoL because of the bootstrap paradox, and Venat managing to preserve the timeline required both knowledge from the future and seemingly a tremendous amount of sheer luck. Tacocat's time travel shenanigans didn't go as planned even with the Crystal Tower and technology derived from Alexander and Omega at his disposal, although it worked out in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Wouldn’t Dynamis-Powered Meteion be a serious contender? It practically destroyed an entire universe by causing The Final Days, since based on what Pupu says during the Hildibrand quests even distant planets were heavily affected. I can’t think of any other entity in FFXIV that has power/influence on such a cosmic scale (again, besides something stupid like Godbert or Tataru lol).

---

As I mentioned, I don't know if that actually counts if we're talking raw 'strongest thing around'. Not only is there the hive mind/gestalt fused entity situation to dissect, but Meteion caused all that destruction by way of being the only thing using dynamis in the way she was, which it turns out basically nothing else in the universe could handle. In Pokemon terms, that'd be like crediting Tyranitar as an objectively stronger Pokemon than Mewtwo because it's got a type advantage.

(for curious non-Pokemon-knowers: Tyranitar is objectively weaker than Mewtwo in nearly every way, but has occasionally been a check to it competitively for exactly that type advantage situation.)

I think that while Endwalker introduces a lot of potential new contenders, none of them necessarily win 'strongest thing ever in the game setting'; the contenders are still probably Midgardsormr, pre-sundering Zodiark, and Alexander from left field. Endwalker does influence 'strongest thing in the game setting right now', but mostly by knocking contenders out: there's no Zodiark or Hydaelyn, every single Ancient/Ascian is off the table (although I don't think they were ever winning), Omega's now confirmably depowered in a similar way to Midgardsormr and is shown to be just one of a mechanized army. Again, Zeromus might be winning the 'strongest right now' contest, and we probably shouldn't count the Twelve out just yet, but the all-time gold trophy probably belongs to the same thing... whatever that thing is.

EDIT: For what it's worth, the Hildibrand revelations likely do put Godbert and Hildibrand much higher than we would've estimated them previously, but I don't think they're capable of reaching the top ten. They're probably in, like, the thirties somewhere; above all the regular sundered humans, below everything that's in some way more.

The WoL, As no matter how powerful a foe is, our ''plot shield'' triggers and we still win in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magikazam

The WoL, As no matter how powerful a foe is, our ''plot shield'' triggers and we still win in the end.

---

Actually, that isn't 100% true. Zenos kicked the Warrior of Light's backside several times. I mean, yeah 'we' beat him in the end, though it took a while - and the final victory, when it came, very nearly came at the cost of the Warrior of Light's life.

Could also mention Ran'jit - he defeated the WoL a few times too.

The WoL is one of the few people in the game with a personal loss count higher than one, actually. It's basically the WoL, Zenos, Ran'jit, Lahabrea, Fandaniel (no matter if you're counting Hermes, Amon, or both), Ysayle, and Nidhogg, plus Rhitatyn, Livia, and Edda if you count 'now they're undead' as the same record. Which sounds like a lot of people, but then you remember that we're a good ways into a triple-digit character count.

Really, the WoL's main advantage is that they're the only person in this entire universe that knows how to make and maintain friendships. On an individual level the WoL is just a really strong regular dude, their main strength comes from the fact that they're rarely ever fighting on an individual level, they're always inviting a bunch of conveniently nearby allies!

...which incidentally means that, if anyone can make a case that one of the Strongest Things In The Setting was an alliance raid enemy, I think they might win this debate by definition: for all that we can talk up Midgardsormr, it only took eight players to beat him in O10.

The WoL is a difficult one to gauge for a number of reasons, with and without allies. We're told by the story they're nearly always holding back, oft times even against foes one would be forgiven for thinking worthy of maximum effort.

Not a single entity exactly, but Alphatron, as controlled by Sir is probably the most powerful force the universe has ever seen.
Overwhelming power, adaptability, and replication speed.
They should also be immune to Dynamis due to the absence of emotions, excluding Sir.
In the end, they only stopped because Sir himself ordered a permanent standby because he was depressed. Later implied to have been wiped out by Meteion even though that makes no sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilverArrow20XX

In the end, they only stopped because Sir himself ordered a permanent standby because he was depressed. Later implied to have been wiped out by Meteion even though that makes no sense.

---

The Omicrons are explicitly stated to still exist in a dormant state. We even see an attempt in Ultima Thule to contact them, the understanding there being the signal would in all likelihood bring them back online. They're very different (read as: unapologetic killing machines) from the faux Omicrons players encounter in UT. Odds quite heavily favor the most powerful members of their species still existing, although I suspect they wouldn't even match up to Omega on an individual basis. After all, Omega managed to evolve well beyond both its initial programming and nearly every conceivable design limitation.

You are correct that as a whole civilization the Omicrons are indisputably very powerful, but they're strong in the "this is a nigh-unstoppable swarm of death with at or near zero capacity for compassion" kind of way, not in the raw power kind of way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You are correct that as a whole civilization the Omicrons are indisputably very powerful, but they're strong in the "this is a nigh-unstoppable swarm of death with at or near zero capacity for compassion" kind of way, not in the raw power kind of way.

---

Hits a similar issue to Meteion. Like, at what point does this stop being 'the most powerful [individual] thing' and starts becoming 'the most powerful group'?

Are the Borg considered the most powerful single thing in Star Trek, because they're a unified collective?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Hits a similar issue to Meteion. Like, at what point does this stop being 'the most powerful [individual] thing' and starts becoming 'the most powerful group'?

Are the Borg considered the most powerful single thing in Star Trek, because they're a unified collective?

---

There's also the whole specialization thing to consider, as you mentioned earlier. Meteion is quite powerful as a collective, but what made her truly dangerous was her extremely specialized nature. The Borg, I suspect, possessed shades of this as well. They were unified in purpose and thought by the Borg Queen, but it was their highly specialized biology and technology that permitted them to so effectively consume worlds. Ironically, it was those specialized natures that would ultimately lead to their undoing; Meteion defeated through a mixture of strong positive emotions and aether, and the Borg torn asunder from the inside by a pathogen that targeted the hivemind itself through the Queen.

So, then, it comes down to context:
Do we look to ascertain the single greatest raw power overall? If yes, then it's probably Zodiark or Meteion.
Do we look at destructive potential? If so, it's probably Meteion. After all, she and her siblings/other selves basically killed the universe.
Do we consider groups a "single thing" for our purposes? If yes, it's probably still Zodiark or Meteion. Zodiark being made up of innumerable souls, and Meteion being... well, several very depressed birds. Potentially the Omicrons if we're only looking at the capacity to bring death, as they appear to have been capable of reaching and killing pretty much anything they felt threatened by (which was everything they ever came into contact with).

I'd argue Meteion potentially meets the criteria for the first simply due to having had all that time to gorge herself upon the despair of innumerable dying civilizations. Dynamis may not be as potent a force as aether on a 1 to 1, but there comes a point where sheer quantity of Dynamis could potentially overtake the ridiculous amount of aether contained within Zodiark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Omicrons are explicitly stated to still exist in a dormant state. We even see an attempt in Ultima Thule to contact them, the understanding there being the signal would in all likelihood bring them back online. They're very different (read as: unapologetic killing machines) from the faux Omicrons players encounter in UT. Odds quite heavily favor the most powerful members of their species still existing, although I suspect they wouldn't even match up to Omega on an individual basis. After all, Omega managed to evolve well beyond both its initial programming and nearly every conceivable design limitation.

You are correct that as a whole civilization the Omicrons are indisputably very powerful, but they're strong in the "this is a nigh-unstoppable swarm of death with at or near zero capacity for compassion" kind of way, not in the raw power kind of way.

---

I actually hope that they touch on that story again at some point. I mean, if something did 'wake' them they'd undoubtedly resume the directive they were following before going dormant. And they'd very likely be just as dangerous as they ever were. The question is, if they found their way to Etheirys, would Omega be able to reason with them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Omicrons are explicitly stated to still exist in a dormant state. We even see an attempt in Ultima Thule to contact them, the understanding there being the signal would in all likelihood bring them back online.

---

Wasn't it the opposite?
The Omicrons on Ultima Thule received a signal from what seems to be the real Stigma-1, which activated the UT Stigma-4.
Or was there another scene I forgot about.

But yeah. That's why it makes no sense that Alphatron keeps getting mentioned in game as a place destroyed by Meteion is what I meant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I actually hope that they touch on that story again at some point. I mean, if something did 'wake' them they'd undoubtedly resume the directive they were following before going dormant. And they'd very likely be just as dangerous as they ever were. The question is, if they found their way to Etheirys, would Omega be able to reason with them?

---

I really want to take Omega to UT for a quest. I thought for sure he'd be involved in the tribe quest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We're told Zodiark did not siphon aether from the planet. He instead utilized the aether of the ancient souls within him, with the caveat being he would not completely drain them. This was possible due to the sheer volume of aether made available to him by those sacrificed. He could draw from them without tapping into their spiritual aether, which meant their souls weren't at risk of erasure.

---

I suspect that siphoning simply wasnt relevant to protect against dynamis anyway. Zodiark was summoned with the full intention of protection and restoring the old world, as we know, primals take over that intention from the creator. As long as zodiark was alive, that intention is basicly a dynamis shield (the motivation to survive is baked in), to destroy the planet and its aether, zodiark must be destroyed through dynamis, but as primal he is immune.

While the ascians wouldnt have known this, this intention still gave immunity and to them proved their theory. But it would not costing any aether in the process here because as the negative effects from dynamis would never get through zodiarks. And zodiarks intent is still protecting the world (as that was needed to restore it).

But while zodiarks intention wasnt siphoning the aether from its people. It had no care for the current state of people, and would be willing to siphon all of it away for the sake of restoring the old world. And this is where i think zodiark has the potential for being extremely powerful. It could decide to consume all the aether, and then use that again to summon the world to its old state through creation magic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

I suspect that siphoning simply wasnt relevant to protect against dynamis anyway. Zodiark was summoned with the full intention of protection and restoring the old world, as we know, primals take over that intention from the creator. As long as zodiark was alive, that intention is basicly a dynamis shield (the motivation to survive is baked in), to destroy the planet and its aether, zodiark must be destroyed through dynamis, but as primal he is immune.

---

Siphoning wasn't even part of Zodiark's design. At its core, it was little more than an ultracomplex application of the creation magics utilized by ancient society on a daily basis. The aether consumption shown in later primals was intentional; the Ascians taught people flawed derivatives of creation, which in turn begat flawed creations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

While the ascians wouldnt have known this, this intention still gave immunity and to them proved their theory. But it would not costing any aether in the process here because as the negative effects from dynamis would never get through zodiarks. And zodiarks intent is still protecting the world (as that was needed to restore it).

---

The intention itself had nothing to do with it. It was how Zodiark enacted this intention that made the difference. What protected the world was an enormous shield of dark aspected aether, which Zodiark maintained throughout the ages. Aether and dynamis are for the most part incompatible, the former being quite detrimental to the latter. That said, it's been proven a sufficient amount of dynamis can overcome this deficiency and act upon aether without being undone in return. We don't really see it touched on too much in-game, but there is an implication the shield would have failed eventually. No way of knowing when, of course. Probably thousands more years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

But while zodiarks intention wasnt siphoning the aether from its people. It had no care for the current state of people, and would be willing to siphon all of it away for the sake of restoring the old world. And this is where i think zodiark has the potential for being extremely powerful. It could decide to consume all the aether, and then use that again to summon the world to its old state through creation magic.

---

It did in fact care for the souls within it. One of the conditions set when they created Zodiark was to safeguard those souls until such time as they could be brought back. The ancients had no intention of leaving their friends and loved ones in limbo forever. Additionally, those souls were in part responsible for Zodiark's instincts. Absent a heart, all it had left to guide it were its programming and the collective desire of those souls to see the world saved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Siphoning wasn't even part of Zodiark's design. At its core, it was little more than an ultracomplex application of the creation magics utilized by ancient society on a daily basis. The aether consumption shown in later primals was intentional; the Ascians taught people flawed derivatives of creation, which in turn begat flawed creations.



The intention itself had nothing to do with it. It was how Zodiark enacted this intention that made the difference. What protected the world was an enormous shield of dark aspected aether, which Zodiark maintained throughout the ages. Aether and dynamis are for the most part incompatible, the former being quite detrimental to the latter. That said, it's been proven a sufficient amount of dynamis can overcome this deficiency and act upon aether without being undone in return. We don't really see it touched on too much in-game, but there is an implication the shield would have failed eventually. No way of knowing when, of course. Probably thousands more years.



It did in fact care for the souls within it. One of the conditions set when they created Zodiark was to safeguard those souls until such time as they could be brought back. The ancients had no intention of leaving their friends and loved ones in limbo forever. Additionally, those souls were in part responsible for Zodiark's instincts. Absent a heart, all it had left to guide it were its programming and the collective desire of those souls to see the world saved.

---

Where did you get that last bit from? The people that gave themselves to Zodiark didn't expect to come back. Zodiark didn't need to use their souls because it could use the vast amount of aether their bodies normally carry.

Ancients top it.
Hades was barely beaten by all of First’s light + 8 Wols;
Hephaistos/Athena both achieved desired Godhood and may have been on Hydalyen’s level or above it(Lahabrea noted that Athena could easily erase you from existence);
Hydaelyn is capable of splitting apart anything and create celestial bodies;
Eden’s eternal breath, which is basically supernova;
Zodiark has complete mastery over reality
and the only one who managed to save a planet doomed by song of oblivion

If we're referring to power in the sense of raw combat potential, you'd be hard pressed to argue that anyone has refined the application of aether to combat any more than Omega. We're talking an entity that has fought countless battles, destroyed entire civilizations, and endlessly studied all of their opponents' techniques in simulation in the quest to become stronger. This is the upper boundary of aetheric power, and merely wielding aether alone isn't going to surpass it.

And yet, even Omega broke through that limit and became stronger for the first time in ages, through simply learning how to wield dynamis. That's worth reflecting on. I think the strongest is going to be someone or something that can wield both forces of nature with equal deftness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

And yet, even Omega broke through that limit and became stronger for the first time in ages, through simply learning how to wield dynamis.

---

Did it, though? I never got the idea that it did. I think by the end it recognized Things Heroes Do When They Win, but was just following those actions by rote without completely understanding why (and confusing dramatic logic with actual logic, i.e. vocalizing its attack names).

Did it ever actually do anything that even sort of plausibly looks like 'wielding dynamis'? Or are we mistaking an Ultimate for canon again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Did it ever actually do anything that even sort of plausibly looks like 'wielding dynamis'? Or are we mistaking an Ultimate for canon again?

---

It only recreated enemies based on information it had.

Omega never had any knowledge of dynamis, since even the omicrons failed surviving the final days, and required recreation to be revived.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

...

---

Why wouldn't TOP have a ring of truth to it, though? If even our minds can conceive of it, then Omega's already done a simulation of it. Our ability to use dynamis was what threw off Omega's calculations in the first place. Doesn't the retelling recontextualize the entire interaction between Alpha and Omega? It's only now that we have the missing piece of the puzzle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Why wouldn't TOP have a ring of truth to it, though?

---

I knew it.

TOP cannot be considered evidence because it's in-universe fanfiction written by a man with absolutely zero relevant credentials relating to dynamis or alien robotics/cybernetics. That's not even me being presumptive, Ultimates are, as stated in-game, the Wandering Minstrel writing a trumped-up non-canon nonsense tale. Remember when DSR was literally a fix fic?

Omega doesn't know crap about dynamis. And the Wandering Minstrel doesn't know crap about Omega.

Yoshi-p is to the Wandering Minstrel as Richard Garriott is to Lord British. It's in-universe fiction written by the in-universe avatar of the man who oversees all the in-universe fiction, including dynamis and alien robotics.

Back in Alphascape, we didn't really understand what Alpha was or why he was able to save us using the power of the fluff hierarchy, because we didn't have the language to describe such phenomena. Now we know. He's the dynamis to Omega's aether. The retelling gives you new insight into an old story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

.

---

Most powerful? 1.0 Bahamut blast that shut down the servers till ARR 2.0