Why does Warrior AoE have to be so much worse than other tanks?

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Enemies don't adjust at all. I really hope you are a troll and just not funny at all. I fear almost that you might be serious, may hydaelyn protect the poor souls which get into a dungeon with you...

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So dramatic. Not saying I'm a troll, but did you ever wonder why it is exactly that trolls find you all so entertaining to mess with? You all break so easily. Be calm; it's a game. ;)

I rather SE not touch their AoE or kit dungeon mass pull tanking is so much fun with the self heals. If they start to tinker it probably will not end well imo.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I rather SE not touch their AoE or kit dungeon mass pull tanking is so much fun with the self heals. If they start to tinker it probably will not end well imo.

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The great self heals that don't detract from your damage are part of the reason why I'll stick with WAR regardless. Lower level WAR doesn't feel great in AoE situations, though.

The cone aoe isn’t such an issue when you tag, run through, turn and swing. You’ll usually get most if not everything in the cone. Though I will agree with the lacking of OGCD aoe.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The great self heals that don't detract from your damage are part of the reason why I'll stick with WAR regardless. Lower level WAR doesn't feel great in AoE situations, though.

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To be fair no melee job AoE really feels all that great at lower levels. Improving a sub standard leveling kit to a standard of other jobs which is meh at the very best.

I play WAR for a long time and really don't get why this is such big of a deal. Literally just put Eye up, tag any enemy and Overpower - Mythril Tempest, done. If it's so hard to aim Overpower, just do 2 uncomboe'd Mythril Tempest as already suggested, it's 20 potency (10 including Eye) less than PLD's Total Eclipse. Tank Stance is so extremely powerful nowadays that it shouldn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

First, it's the only tank that needs a target to do it's AoE combo. With how absolutely broken tab targeting is in this game that alone is enough to throw the WAR behind every other tank gameplay-wise.

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You need to target enemies with all tanks though. Flood of Shadow, all gapclosers, Confiteor, Abyssal Drain, your own auto-attack, all of these require a target.

Regarding your third point, why would an oGCD AoE move make wall to wall pull feel a lot better? WAR already tears through everything with Direct Crit Decimates and Chaotic Cyclones and is an absolute monster at self-healing with Nascent Flash and Equilibrium to the point that you don't even need a healer in Dungeons.

All these points have given me the impression that perhaps you're just new to the class and haven't realized its full potential yet. I'd say keep playing and getting more practice with it. Soon all those minor nuances won't even be a thing anymore.

The cone is a lot wider and longer than what most folks think. Its usually not too big of a deal, but for sure prefer an general circle aoe mostly because of targeting. If we could use cone anytime without target id be far happier.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

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I'll just re-emphasize that none of this is class/role breaking; it's just annoying and clunky.

Having to target enemies to AoE while pulling is just problematic because of how broken tab targeting is. Nothing quite like watching tab cycle through everything in the dungeon except what's right in front of you before you can actually pick everything up. That, and the fact that the layout of enemies never really fits a cone, is why I never really pull with Overpower.

Chaining 2 Mythril's works, but WAR is the only tank class who has to sit there eating autos through an entire GCD before they can move on. PLD can hit stragglers with Circle of Scorn immediately while continuing to move forward; DRK with Flood of Shadow; etc. That's where the WAR's lack of an OGCD AoE hurts it when big pulling.

A lot of the responses I'm getting are of the "WAR can technically still do everything" variety. I'm not saying they can't; their AoE options are just clunkier and more limited than every other tank class.

Many of my friends love warrior bunches! One of them calls it the "unga bunga tank" because of how powerful it feels even at the earlier levels.

She also taught me the art of the backwards overpower. Activate sprint as you do when big pulling, use provoke at max range when available then wait for the enemies to run past you. This is where you use overpower on the enemy you targeted for provoke. The overpower cone will radiate outwards, this is especially effective if the healer has applied regen. The cone is sooooo fricken huge it will still hit stuffs.

You probably will not have provoke for the next pack so body pull this one while targeting the center mob annnd again as they run past use overpower backwards.

You need legacy controls for this to function properly if you are on PC. If you are using standard controls your character will turn backwards to use the skill which is umm, kinda annoying as heck.

When you come to a complete stop and are ready to end the pull this is where you do the "dipsy doodle" as my uncle enjoys calling it. Tank shimmy works too, I suppose. Do not move too much, just do little scoots to the left or to the right and ever so slightly backwards. This will cause the mobs on either left or right side to clump up with the rest, the very very very slight scoot backwards insures the stragglers bunch up into the death ball too.

When using overpower or gravity on Astro I do not use tab to target anything. I click stuffs in the aggro list, I can use this to select the perfect mob or monitor which mob is close to death and pre select a healthier target before the other one parishes.

The slight scoot dance is something all warriors must do anyways once you get mythril tempest. Overpowr > scoot forward slightly > tempest > scoot backwards slightly > overpower > repeat. Nope! Before it is said, if done quickly the pack will not move or move so little it does not matter.

This trick works super well on the Dark Knight too. Grab mobs with provoke > unleash > wait for them to run past > flood of darkness backwards > repeat. This will build soooooo much enmity that not even standard finish will pull mobs off of you anymore.

Best of the luck! Remember Warrior is different (which is good thing!), you cannot play it as you do Paladin or other tanks. Dark Knight too!

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I get this weird feeling a lot of you don't know what the word encircle means.

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Clearly, it's you.

Hell's Lid Solo

This is a solo vid of mine from last year. For the purposes of monster behavior it works. Not that monsters remain stationary in every single pull unless I move. Note that they do not circle around to my back side, ever, at all, unless I stand in the middle of them myself. The best example is around the 6:48~ though I do die there due to not using Bloodbath sooner.

Gunbreaker Ghimlyt Dark Solo

This is another one, on Gunbreaker this time. Note how in the first pull, which is as big as it can be, all of the Garleans stay rooted still until I close between them with Rough Divide? Then I step back out, and turn back towards them, not a single one moves to get behind me. Enemies only fan out if the size difference between their hit boxes is so large that it pushes one of the larger ones out of melee range unless they fan out. They fan out. That is not encirclement.

Look at the second pull. Note that as I move around them, the soldiers actually clump up tighter, against the hit box of the dropship. Note how they never try to circle around me, pivoting in place most of the time.

You're wrong, and you must tank poorly if you're serious.

Overpower is great to pull with. You're just stinky cheese. Git Gud, Gascoigne. Also in some dungeons they are positioned right in front of you. Pagl'than for instance. The first tempered Garleans run at you in a loose line, Overpower will hit all but the BLM, but then you Mythril Tempest at him, combo'd, and all 4 are hit. The next pull with some garleans and puks before the breakable wall are also all usually hit by Overpower. It's on a dungeon by dungeon basis, but Overpower works quite well most of the time. The only thing clunk is no oGCD on WAR, but GNB pretty much has this problem but worse, because circular AOEs have a lower radial and range than Overpower. To me GNB is the clunkiest dungeon tank, for pulls. But none of them are really clunky compared to the old days when we had to account for TP, MP, and didn't have fully fledged AOE combos on tanks at all.

Not to mention that tanking them as OP clearly wants it to be is dangerous for all the close combat melee jobs. Since the mobs will do their aoes in all directions if you pull them in a way that allows them to literally encircle you.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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While it's possible I'm thinking of a different game, skimming your videos none of your pulls are big enough for anything to actually have to circle you to stay in melee range. If the pull is small enough for all of the melee hitboxes to fit in front of you then of course they won't circle, but if there's enough of them or the hit boxes are big enough they have to fan out but still close in around you to stay in melee range.

Also, it's nice that you can find a few specific examples where enemies are positioned better for Overpower, but most of the time enemies are either grouped up in a loose ball or spread out enough to where they would come at you from multiple directions after you charge in. That's how most groupings work and the circular AoE's that don't require a target are vastly superior, and the lack of an OCD is just the final nail in the coffin.

Also, the 'git gud' and 'u must be bad tank, lolz' lines are kind of pointless. No reason to poison any real points you might have by making yourself look dim.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Not to mention that tanking them as OP clearly wants it to be is dangerous for all the close combat melee jobs. Since the mobs will do their aoes in all directions if you pull them in a way that allows them to literally encircle you.

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Most AoE's are either positioned randomly or centered on the enemy, so this doesn't really matter. The only ones that really target the tank are frontal cones; which are very easy for melee to avoid and plenty of enemies will intentionally aim them backwards anyways.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

While it's possible I'm thinking of a different game

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You are, because you're wrong. The pulls in my vids for anything with a tank in them are as big as pulls get. Notice how you're shifting your points. First you say it's normal mob behavior for everything to encircle us, they do it naturally. Now you say, "Oh, of course they don't unless they have to!" Just face it man, you're wrong. Own up to your wrongness.

This whole thread makes you look dim, pal. I used, "Git Gud" because your character name is related to Bloodborne(and by extension the Souls series). Clearly, you need to brush up on some tank vids.

I could list more pulls that are more advantageous for Overpower than there are dungeons in the game, but it'd take too much time. Use the skill correctly, while positioning correctly, and you'll get worlds better results.

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As for your response to Ranaku: Actually, it does matter. Frontal conal aoes extend past the tank, and many melee need to be at certain angles/pull centers to ensure that their AOES hit everything. Being forced to move due to those conals from an ill-positioned tank can cause missed AOEs and make everything take longer.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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If I am actually thinking about a different game then that's fine; I'm just saying your baby pull videos didn't really prove anything. I'm also not shifting my points; in any game enemies only circle when there's enough of them to make it necessary. Pull a few they'll stand if front of you; pull a lot and their hitboxes force them to spread out and their need to stay in melee range forces them to encircle you. It's not a default behavior so much as a logistical necessity to keep them from overlapping but still allow them to stay in melee range.

I do think it's possible that enemies adjust so slowly in this game that the behavior rarely gets noticed, but this is all kind of beyond the point.

Also, I'm not saying you can't pull with overpower; I'm saying it's clunkier than circular AoEs because A) It requires use of the games broken targeting system, and B) If enemies are spread out they'll attack you from all angles when pulled, not from in front. Circular covers all angles directly around you, while a cone only covers your front. It's not impossible to use, it's just worse, and AGAIN Warriors have no OCD AoE attacks. I'm arguing Warriors have worse AoE than other tanks, and your counterargument is only that WAR AoE can work. I know it works, but WAR AoE is still unquestionably the worst of all tank classes

And again, all the 'git gud' crap doesn't help your point, it just makes you sound petty and dim.

As for Ranakus point; ranged DPS don't have to worry about cones and melee can AoE on the move easily. Cones have a thin close proximity radius that's easy to just step out of, and plenty of mobs don't even direct cones at the tank. Where the tanks standing is trivial; it doesn't really matter most of the time. By jumping on that non-point and trying to defend it you're just grasping, which gives the appearance that you're not actually confident in any of the points you're making. If you do really believe the points you're making then I guess you're just bad at conducting yourself in a way that shows it.

aoe of warrior work in an area in V while paladins around him.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

cause OP doesnt know play WARR. AOE of warr works great if know what you are doing.

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Well, technically everything works great in dungeons in this game, because dungeons are WAY too easy for concepts like good/bad classes to have any meaning. Like I said, though, I'm not saying Warrior AoE doesn't work; Warrior AoE is WAY more effective and powerful than what would ever be needed in any dungeon in this game. I'm just saying that it's objectively worse than all the other tanks, which is true.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Well, technically everything works great in dungeons in this game, because dungeons are WAY too easy for concepts like good/bad classes to have any meaning. Like I said, though, I'm not saying Warrior AoE doesn't work; Warrior AoE is WAY more affective and powerful than what would ever be needed in any dungeon in this game. I'm just saying that it's objectively worse than all the other tanks, which is true.

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do you use defiance before and during any pulls? thats help you hold the agroo. anything you touch will turn to you. if you update your weapon to same level of dg or close of it it helps too.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

do you use defiance before and during any pulls? thats help you hold the agroo. anything you touch will turn to you.

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Of course not. It's got a 10 second CD so I save it for emergencies.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Of course not. It's got a 10 second CD so I save it for emergencies.

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defiance its not ocd, its skill that ur activate and leave it, its like a passive skill that keep ur agrro. just click once and keep it, if you click again you lose.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

defiance its not ocd, its skill that ur activate and leave it, its like a passive skill that keep ur agrro.

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If it's passive then why do I have to activate it and why is it on a 10 second CD? I like to save it for boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If it's passive then why do I have to activate it and why is it on a 10 second CD? I like to save it for boss fights.

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i mean while its activated you will keep agroo, like a buff, you get benefits of it whiles active. its 10 sec cooldown, but you wont use again like other skills, see it like a "buff". you keep it on till end of DG. anything you cast while defiance on, generate lots of agrro.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

i mean while its activated you will keep agroo, like a buff, you get benefits of it whiles active. its 10 sec cooldown, but you wont use again like other skills, see it like a "buff". you keep it on till end of DG.

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I see. Thanks for the advice pal. :)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I see. Thanks for the advice pal. :)

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glad to help!! all tanks have skill that have same effect like defiance, but with diferent name.

Something smells fishy here. The fact that this wasn't posted in tank roles should have been the first clue.

But to keep with relevancy, if you don't want mobs to fan out around you (they will never encircle you), you must move around them slightly. This will keep everything nice and tidy if your cone aoe is not hitting them. Your dps will also love you because they won't have to search for the best target and guess if their aoe will hit them all. The mobs also won't fan out and move causing the dps to have to change targets to hit the most mobs. Also I'm requesting this thread be moved to Tank Roles.


~~Good Luck.