I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

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Well I guess you can keep being wrong. No need to be sorry :) I will just keep looking at history, and the world today to see how human nature really is. And evil is perspective thing. The people with money and power can shape history, and always have and will. The winners get to decide who is right. Even in todays standards. Might equals right on a world stage. But that is a whole other topic.

Nothing you really said counters my point. Zonos wants a rematch. You act like that is not a big deal? He is a hunter, He wants the world to burn because it will bring out the best in you to defend it. He rather KILL himself than be bored again. He wants you back into a corner. He does not just want to fight, he wants the perfect stage. The settings. The FEELING.



He is amazing. In fact he is my top three best people in the game. His pure emotions, pure driven. I love everything about him, how he is alive now, just to feel that one moment. How selfish he was to kill himself instead of being locked away bored out of his mind. He rather just end it all right on the spot, and being given a second chance. How could he not set the stage? The world ending, just him and the hero of light facing off on the final stage, him taking everyone else out with him in a blaze of glory.


Man I got shivers just thinking about it. What a guy.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Well I guess you can keep being wrong. No need to be sorry :) I will just keep looking at history, and the world today to see how human nature really is.

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Uh huh. Give me one - even one - example of a person from history who has been pure evil. Not 'evil' in an aggregate sense - pure evil. You cannot do it. Any answer you provide will be false.

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Nothing you really said counters my point. Zonos wants a rematch. You act like that is not a big deal? He is a hunter, He wants the world to burn because it will bring out the best in you to defend it. He rather KILL himself than be bored again. He wants you back into a corner. He does not just want to fight, he wants the perfect stage. The settings. The FEELING.

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Zenos has no plan, and no ambition. His singular goal is to fight us. He could find us with ease - Fandaniel just flew right up to us. Moreover, what if Zenos wins? What's his scheme then? What is he after? There's no adequate answer to any of these questions, because Zenos is perhaps the most transparent and boring character in the history of Final Fantasy; if the writers have even considered these questions, they haven't seen fit to inject their solutions into the character himself. Because he's just a hollow vessel at this point. There's nothing to him but piss and wind.

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He is amazing. Man I got shivers just thinking about it. What a guy.

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Ouch. Well, I didn't need more insight into the way you ticked, but this is telling all the same.

First you'll have to define "pure evil", because it's pretty vague.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

First you'll have to define "pure evil", because it's pretty vague.

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No, it really isn't. A 'pure evil' person would never miss any opportunity - period - to commit an evil act, because he or she would be incapable of doing good. They'd do everything from slam car doors on people's hands, to flambéing all the neighborhood pets, to stabbing their own mother with a fork. Nothing - nothing - would be safe, immune, or held sacred. Every single chance to do wrong would be exercised.

Nobody has ever been wired that way - nobody. No person could function like that.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Uh huh. Give me one - even one - example of a person from history who has been pure evil. Not 'evil' in an aggregate sense - pure evil. You cannot do it. Any answer you provide will be false.

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Like I said it is a perspective thing, but I will give you an example of what I think is the evil of human nature. I don't even need to go into the past.


We can end world hunger, but we don't in the name of profits.
We willing turn a blind eye to unfair laws, or wars just so we can live an easier life.
We use social media to cry about things being unfair for others, but when the time comes for actions. The posts are just to "feel good".
We still to this day have slavery in many parts of the world and america as well. yet we ignore it.


I mean I could make a HUGE list of the things I consider evil. Making excuses like it can't be helped, or that is just how it is. Well that is a mask we wear to make ourselves feel better. Humans always run each other over. For every good thing we do, the evils we allow is ten times worse in my eyes.



That is why I like this guy. He does not hide behind anything. He does not make excuses. You stand in his way, you die. He will do anything, no matter how twisted it is, just to feel that moment. Heck even calling his family a coward for almost killing you with that rose.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

No, it really isn't. A 'pure evil' person would never miss any opportunity - period - to commit an evil act, because he or she would be incapable of doing good. They'd do everything from slam car doors on people's hands, to flambéing all the neighborhood pets, to stabbing their own mother with a fork. Nothing - nothing - would be safe, immune, or held sacred. Every single chance to do wrong would be exercised.

Nobody has ever been wired that way - nobody. No person could function like that.

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That's not "pure" evil. That's "stupid" evil.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Like I said it is a perspective thing, but I will give you an example of what I think is the evil of human nature. I don't even need to go into the past.


We can end world hunger, but we don't in the name of profits.
We willing turn a blind eye to unfair laws, or wars just so we can live an easier life.
We use social media to cry about things being unfair for others, but when the time comes for actions. The posts are just to "feel good".
We still to this day have slavery in many parts of the world and america as well. yet we ignore it.


I mean I could make a HUGE list of the things I consider evil. Making excuses like it can't be helped, or that is just how it is. Well that is a mask we wear to make ourselves feel better. Humans always run each other over. For every good thing we do, the evils we allow is ten times worse in my eyes.



That is why I like this guy. He does not hide behind anything. He does not make excuses. You stand in his way, you die. He will do anything, no matter how twisted it is, just to feel that moment. Heck even calling his family a coward for almost killing you with that rose.

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Lol, you're offering me nothing but platitudes when I'm asking for specifics. I want an individual who is pure evil - that's all; not the 'subtle evils of humanity as a collective.' You need to give me a person who is as evil and bereft of soul as Zenos is - a person who is so malignant and simultaneously useless that their entire purpose in being is only to spread ruin. And, so far - starving people in undeveloped countries, and our oh-so-evil choice not to weep for them ceaselessly - you have been unable to do that.

https://i.imgur.com/KZ3l8ik.png

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

That's not "pure" evil. That's "stupid" evil.

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Nope, that's pure evil. Because anything less than that isn't pure evil. I never said that pure evil was smart - of course it isn't. But that's the bar we're measuring our dear boy Zenos by: his stupid obsession with doing nothing but evil for no reason.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Lol, you're offering me nothing but platitudes when I'm asking for specifics. I want an individual who is pure evil - that's all; not the 'subtle evils of humanity as a collective.' You need to give me a person who is as evil and bereft of soul as Zenos is - a person who is so malignant and simultaneously useless that their entire purpose in being is only to spread ruin. And, so far - starving people in undeveloped countries, and our oh-so-evil choice not to weep for them ceaselessly - you have been unable to do that.

https://i.imgur.com/KZ3l8ik.png

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Your question is silly, Because I can name a ton of people I feel are pure evil from my pov.

Hilter.
Genghis Khan
George Washington
Nero
Josef Mengele


Like, I gave you examples of human nature that I consider evil that counter your pov. You wanted people so here I gave you a list of people I find true evil.

For Zenos to be a successful 'pure evil' character he would need to inflict some serious lasting harm and trauma upon the protagonists. He has failed to do so and repeatedly walks away whenever granted the opportunity to do as much. So he simply falls flat as a character and seems to be have been created purely as an excuse to dismantle Garlemald without forcing the Scions or Warrior of Light to deal with the fact that an attempt to invade the place would displace and slaughter a great many innocent people.

I don't consider evil characters who only ever kill antagonists to be particularly compelling. Sephiroth was as much as a threat and thorn in the side to Shinra as he was to Cloud and his companions. Especially given what he does to a certain character...

Zenos has simply fallen flat for me. I had high hopes given the promise of an unapologetic villain but at this point I'm expecting him to do a heel face turn and side with the Warrior of Light for no other reason than 'rule of cool'. I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen - and it'll suck, given that the game has persistently refused to allow us to side with antagonists that had common ground and would realistically be open to reason and long term alliances had they not been conveniently slain/had their hands tied. Namely the likes of Regula and Varis.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

For Zenos to be a successful 'pure evil' character he would need to inflict some serious lasting harm and trauma upon the protagonists. He has failed to do so and repeatedly walks away whenever granted the opportunity to do as much. So he simply falls flat as a character and seems to be have been created purely as an excuse to dismantle Garlemald without forcing the Scions or Warrior of Light to deal with the fact that an attempt to invade the place would displace and slaughter a great many innocent people.

I don't consider evil characters who only ever kill antagonists to be particularly compelling. Sephiroth was as much as a threat and thorn in the side to Shinra as he was to Cloud and his companions. Especially given what he does to a certain character...

Zenos has simply fallen flat for me. I had high hopes given the promise of an unapologetic villain but at this point I'm expecting him to do a heel face turn and side with the Warrior of Light for no other reason than 'rule of cool'. I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen.

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I can sorta agree with this. I hope he goes out with a bang. I want him to do something that shakes the warrior of light to the core. I really hope he does something amazing in edgewalker that will leave a scar so deep that the hero can never really get over it.

Betting all my coins that the final boss will be the thing that caused the Final Days. A Lavos-esque entity.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Nope, that's pure evil. Because anything less than that isn't pure evil. I never said that pure evil was smart - of course it isn't. But that's the bar we're measuring our dear boy Zenos by: his stupid obsession with doing nothing but evil for no reason.

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So you're saying a "pure" evil person couldn't be deliberate about it. They couldn't make a plan that would do little immediately but would cause greater suffering later. They have no motives beyond basically being a violent dick.

Because frankly, Zenos doesn't fit your definition of pure evil. He has a motive. It's a very flat and stupid one, but he does have one. He's not going out and eating puppies and stealing from children for the hell of it. But on the other hand, he's never shown to do anything remotely "good" either. He's a selfish, dead-eyed sociopath.

And that's what defines evil, to me. The selfish "I'm gonna get mine, screw everyone else" attitude that, taken to its logical conclusion, is antithetical to progress, cooperation, society, and civilization as a whole. It doesn't matter who they have to hurt or kill, as long as they get what they want in the end. By that definition, Zenos is pure evil, because he simply does not care about anything but his own desires. He wants a good fight, and he's more than willing to burn the world to get it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

So you're saying a "pure" evil person couldn't be deliberate about it. They couldn't make a plan that would do little immediately but would cause greater suffering later. They have no motives beyond basically being a violent dick.

Because frankly, Zenos doesn't fit your definition of pure evil. He has a motive. It's a very flat and stupid one, but he does have one. He's not going out and eating puppies and stealing from children for the hell of it. But on the other hand, he's never shown to do anything remotely "good" either. He's a selfish, dead-eyed sociopath.

And that's what defines evil, to me. The selfish "I'm gonna get mine, screw everyone else" attitude that, taken to its logical conclusion, is antithetical to progress, cooperation, society, and civilization as a whole. It doesn't matter who they have to hurt or kill, as long as they get what they want in the end. By that definition, Zenos is pure evil, because he simply does not care about anything but his own desires. He wants a good fight, and he's more than willing to burn the world to get it.

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Yup, and I think part of him knows that he is going to die by the hero of light also. That is what makes him so crazy, It is not about winning or losing to him. It is about that moment. That feeling, the stage he wants to set. He does not care how many corpses he must walk over. He does not care about the outcome. That is pretty twisted and evil. He does not value life, or his own life at all.


I also don't find his motive that stupid as well. He is a hunter. Why do people Sport hunt wild and dangerous beast? for the thrill. So he is just a thrill seeker.

How can anyone say that he is not pure evil.

"pure evil" imo is very vague. Even Darth Sidious shows that if you want to be in the dark side, you have to suffer. If that character suffers when he does evil things, is he just "pure evil" because he smiles when he kills ppl ?

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

"pure evil" imo is very vague. Even Darth Sidious shows that if you want to be in the dark side, you have to suffer. If that character suffers when he does evil things, is he just "pure evil" because he smiles when he kills ppl ?

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I mean sure it is a perspective thing. To me pure evil is someone who does not value life, and is selfish enough to bring misery for self gain.


To me life is the most valid and treasure thing we have. When someone else devalues it for gain, or takes it away. That is pure evil in my eyes. Each person has can set a standard to what they consider "pure" evil is... But this guy fits the bill for me. He is ruthless in his hunt for pleasure.


Out of all the evil people who have in this game. I feel like this guy is amazing. Since he showed up in Stormblood it has been an amazing ride.

My problem with Zenos, is that he’s fine as an antagonist for a single expansion. He was good in SB. He got the ending he wanted. The problem is them bringing him back, and having him be one of the last main characters of the Hydy/Zodi arc. This is an arc that’s been around since 1.0. Yet they’re going to have a character who only joined in 4.0 be the finale of the story. That’s what bugs me. Especially when his whole purpose/goal has nothing to do with the arc period. The fact we lost actual good antagonists like Emet and Elidibus and Varis but Zenos is still around bugs me immensely. He’s gotten more screentime than Elidibus, who really should’ve been the main focus of ShB but instead got 2 patches lol.

I’m betting it’s actually Hydaelyn.

The entire concept of something or someone being 'objectively pure evil' is a super loaded one, you first need to define your code of morality to do it, and who you describe as 'pure evil' says a lot more about you and your values than them, even in cases where its hard to argue the person isn't evil or at least did terrible things.

Lets take Genghis Khan, from that list a page back. Yes, he killed a lot of people in conquest, but that is par for the course in terms of history, even targeting towns that refused to surrender isn't unusual at all (the Greeks did it ALL the time). As a ruler, Genghis Khan was pretty damn mild and created a golden age historians call the Pax Mongolia, with increased trade and cultural exchange in Asia Europe that resulted in the continents taking the shape they are today (ex: Russia would not be Russia without him). He also created a lot of concepts we consider important modern day, such as the of a Diplomat and diplomatic immunity (have fun getting executed if your delivering diplomatic messages the receiving party decides they don't like before then) and the importance of pluralism (the Mongol Empire forced scholars of different faiths to get along and collaborate), and the concept of torture as unethical.

Like a lot of 'historical villains' he got a hatchet job done because a lot of what you learn in any non-college history is actually propaganda designed to sell you on the 'story' of your country and justify its culture, and part of our cultural identity is to value this perceived cultural legacy of Greece, which Genghis Khan didn't really care about and actively undermined by, again, forcing members of different cultures to cooperate not just for the sake of his empire, but to study philosophy and science and history and seperate it from myths countries told themselves.

Does that make him a good or bad dude? I dunno, there were a whole lot of bodies because he was uniquely succesful as an emperor. But he wasn't an especially terrible emperor worthy of being considered 'uniquely evil.' He is less a Zenos than say... a Gaius.

The thing that makes me feel that Zenos falls flat is because, unlike real people, he IS just a flat character. And flat characters are fine, good stories HAVE flat characters and villains. In Stormblood he worked fine because he served not really as the main villain from a story perspective, but as a causal factor for why other people might become villains despite not being fundamentally terrible people. But as his arc grows longer it becomes more clear that he doesn't fit in with the greater XIV 'canon' of villains, as villains either turn out to be more dimensional than we think even if they can't be redeemed, or are short 'one and done' villains who mostly just exist as a utilitarian character who explains the reason people are the way they are (Ex: Varro).

Even Fandanial has more thought put into why they are the way the are: they are tired of constantly dying and being revived by the other Ascians and just want it all to STOP.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

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Fandaniel is the way he is because the his soul crystal used to raise him is damaged, Thus making him unhinged, Only now Elidibus is gone and there is no chance of being raised again can he enact his own will.

Zenos isn't one dimensional. The issue is that we haven't seen the second dimension yet. We have seen glimpses - why is he so powerful that he can scare an unsundered ascian out of his body? Why the vivid dreams of the final days since childhood. We are going to find out the conclusion to his personality in endwalker. Who is he really? Who's sundered soul does he have? Is he even sundered or is he rejoined?

When the sundering happened, the soul of whoever/whatever caused the keening would have been sundered too. Where does that soul now lie. It's likely Zenos.

What people are doing is judging a character halfway through his arc. As someone said above, a lot of people disliked Emet when he was introduced but once his arc was completed they loved him. Judge Zenos when his story is over.

People didn't like Emet-Selch based on two patches. People don't like Zenos based on two expansions. There's a big difference in exposure time there.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Fandaniel is the way he is because the his soul crystal used to raise him is damaged, Thus making him unhinged, Only now Elidibus is gone and there is no chance of being raised again can he enact his own will.

Zenos isn't one dimensional. The issue is that we haven't seen the second dimension yet. We have seen glimpses - why is he so powerful that he can scare an unsundered ascian out of his body? Why the vivid dreams of the final days since childhood. We are going to find out the conclusion to his personality in endwalker. Who is he really? Who's sundered soul does he have? Is he even sundered or is he rejoined?

When the sundering happened, the soul of whoever/whatever caused the keening would have been sundered too. Where does that soul now lie. It's likely Zenos.

What people are doing is judging a character halfway through his arc. As someone said above, a lot of people disliked Emet when he was introduced but once his arc was completed they loved him. Judge Zenos when his story is over.

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Zenos has had 2 expansions to show his other dimension, it’s gone nowhere. You can’t even compare emet because emet was around for what…1 patch in sb? and then he got ShB where he shined from the start. Meanwhile Zenos has been given SB, then ShB. A majority still aren’t interested. They’ve said they aren’t going to make him sympathetic which while i’m happy about it, that’s probably the only way they could ever make him better. Also, he didn’t scare Elidibus out of his body. Elidibus was already going to leave, even zenos himself says there was no fight. Elidibus had no further use of his body.People are judging a character that already had his arc, in SB. Fact of the matter is Emet was a better antagonist and did it all in much less time than Zenos is taking. Elidibus managed to be a better antagonist in two patches than Zenos ever was.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

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To pile onto the whole 'judging a character halfway through the arc' bit, it falls into the 'the story gets good later' fallacy: You can't say its unfair to judge a story that has been ongoing for some odd 4 years.

Furthermore, Zenos is as deep as he appears: he is a murderous hedonist who can only obtain pleasure from violence. The questions you raised are not going to change that, and learning that is less of a revelation than an explanation.

Us learning why he is so strong may be thematically important, but it changes literally nothing about the character unless the revelation is of the nature of "He used to be an entirely different character as a literal baby" which still wouldn't alter anything about the story, because learning Zenos had his soul swapped as a baby by Emmet as part of Ascian Experiments or whatever doesn't change the fact that Zenos functionally spent his whole life as a conscious being as a hate filled sociopath. Maybe if they then have this cause Zenos to literally become an entirely new character (possessed by their past self maybe?) it would lead somewhere interesting, but as is it isn't really a dimension to the character as much as trivia.

Compare this to learning about why the WoL is special and so powerful, which DOES change the story and our relationship with the villains we faced and are facing, despite Azem being a totally flat character and getting almost no screentime. They are a character who is as flat as they come, and is yet still a great character because of the impact their reveal had on the story.

And that sorta leads to the greater issue of Zenos not being a good villain to conclude XIV's story. XIV had a lot of themes, but if there is one overarching one, its about how violence is cyclical and the only way to escape it is to recognize the humanity of your enemies. Its thesis is basically 'No one is born evil.' So having the ultimate villain just be someone who was born evil (or who was made evil at a point where they functionally weren't a thinking person) kinda... sucks?

Much like past expansions, the fact that they've built up Zenos and Fandaniel probably means that they're going to be mostly deal with during 6.0. Zenos is very likely going to be the "final boss" of 6.0, much like he was in 4.0 with Stormblood, and Emet-Selch was with Shadowbringers' 5.0.

Fandaniel being an Ascian, and promotional art for the Pandemonium raid features an Ascian... It leads me to think Fandaniel will probably be involved there. Not likely as the final boss. If he is there, I would predict he'll get killed off in the second set of raids to reveal some bigger bad to kill for the last 4 raids.



But hey, at least EdiblebusElidibus can't be the big bad for the 3rd time in a row.

How about Nero? Not Nero from the game. The actual Nero?

It took ARR to ShB to finally make me enjoy Elidibus and even then he is not even a character that I deeply feel much.
I envy you lot with Zenos because I see that character a wheel for others to react to.

The good thing about golf club reaper man is that the characters around him know he is a mad person but I best enjoyed thanks of looking at other garleans characters from important figures such Gaius, Varis, Valens etc to even side quests one that joined the Empire (the one captain/leader in Gyr Abania that surrendered himself and gave the people a better treatment compared to other places).

In likeness of XII's Empire where you have multiple types of characters to distinguish.

Other than that, I do not have much hope on what will happen to Zenos, he either gets his fight and die happy or whatever, I prefer looking at the whole picture rather than him or fandaniel.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

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Even if it was the normal, I still think it was pretty evil. It went well beyond revenge. He made an example out of everyone. His anger and what he thought of life.


But you are right. We don't know what really happens. That is why I said, the winners get to make history how they want it. Even if they are the bad guys.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Even if it was the normal, I still think it was pretty evil. It went well beyond revenge. He made an example out of everyone. His anger and what he thought of life.


But you are right. We don't know what really happens. That is why I said, the winners get to make history how they want it. Even if they are the bad guys.

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Genghis Khan was an extremely mellow ruler, and there is reason to believe his personal views were equally mellow. For example, the Mongol's religion didn't really... demand conversion, so if you lived in the Mongol Empire there was no religious persecution. He valued the arts and sciences as well as the exchange of ideas, and while it is true he did wipe out some people who resisted, that was... noooooooooot unusual for Empires at the time and if you did surrender to the Mongols you were pretty much just fine. He actually ruled with an extremely light hand.

Like a good example of what he compared to was the Greeks, who were not even an empire but were... rough. The Atheneans were waging war and a neutral city in their way asked to not be a part of the war, and would allow the Atheneans to just go on through. In response to their desire for neutrality the Atheneans burnt down that city state and killed everyone in it. Yikes.

Again, Genghis Khan was special in the grand scheme of history mostly for his success, and having more influence on what the modern world looks like than almost any other Emperor ever on the planet. Most of what people know in the cultural consciousness is a total hatched job against him after the fact that tries to paint him as an especially horrible brute.

This is very common among historical figures that don't get a lot of focus in education. For example, I didn't go into Nero cuz lol space, but it's extremely likely a lot of what we consider 'historical record' about him was a mix of elite Romans not liking him as a reformer, and the fact that Christians turned him into almost a mythological parable. And because Christian religious figures got to gatekeep the historical record of Rome (along with Islamic scholars, who actually did it first and had to give the record to Christians because they plain old forgot it), despite 'losing' pretty much all the time, they got to write the history there.

You didn't learn about the Pax Mongolia because most English Speaking countries try to mythologize history as civilization and culture mainly being a creation of Greeks, then Romans, then the Church. So it isn't even that the winners get to make history per-say. It is more that the purposes of most history education at the non-university level is to train you to believe in the narrative of your given country. So you only know about the Mongol Empire(s) (because they were so successful and stable they had like 12) second hand from cultural reference as it being terrible.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Fandaniel being an Ascian, and promotional art for the Pandemonium raid features an Ascian... It leads me to think Fandaniel will probably be involved there. Not likely as the final boss. If he is there, I would predict he'll get killed off in the second set of raids to reveal some bigger bad to kill for the last 4 raids.

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The ascian on the pandaemonium art is Lahabrea…How did you get that fandaniel would be involved there lmao.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The ascian on the pandaemonium art is Lahabrea…How did you get that fandaniel would be involved there lmao.

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Yea It's Lahabrea's glyph... But he should be rather dead after HW...

And if there's Ascians involved in there, it doesn't have to be just a single one... And currently, the only Ascian that's known about really is Fandaniel.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Yea It's Lahabrea's glyph... But he should be rather dead after HW...

And if there's Ascians involved in there, it doesn't have to be just a single one... And currently, the only Ascian that's known about really is Fandaniel.

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Idk why people assume he’s dead. Even Ishikawa herself said it’s unknown. He wasn’t trapped by conventional means. It’s like the people who think Emet’s dead when he wasn’t even trapped in the auracite lmao.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Idk why people assume he’s dead. Even Ishikawa herself said it’s unknown. He wasn’t trapped by conventional means. It’s like the people who think Emet’s dead when he wasn’t even trapped in the auracite lmao.

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Well, yes. It's hard to say definitively that they're in fact dead... But I seem to remember it being very heavily implied by Emet-Selch that Lahabrea is actually dead. And by both Elidibus and Fandaniel at Emet-Selch died in the cutscenes after the Hades fight.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, yes. It's hard to say definitively that they're in fact dead... But I seem to remember it being very heavily implied by Emet-Selch that Lahabrea is actually dead. And by both Elidibus and Fandaniel at Emet-Selch died in the cutscenes after the Hades fight.

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That’s what they felt happened. But considering he wasn’t trapped in auracite, which we’re told is the only way to effectively defeat them, the logical conclusion is he’s somewhere in the lifestream.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s what they felt happened. But considering he wasn’t trapped in auracite, which we’re told is the only way to effectively defeat them, the logical conclusion is he’s somewhere in the lifestream.

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The insinuation was that Thordan turned him into aether which he then consumed to sustain his Primal 'Knights of the Round' form (ironically just like how Leviathan did the same thing to the Sahagin Elder whom Elidibus uplifted with the Echo) - Thordan outright states that, that souls are "just aether, regardless if they're mortal or Ascian" (paraphrased), suggesting Lahabrea was now dead and gone permenantly, burned up like so much fuel.

Elidibus's comments cemented that even further stating "I alone remain" ( of the Unsundered) in the stinger of ShB. So there is a lot of questions as to the new raid coming in EW showing Lahabrea's glyph... but... given what Pandemonium was in past FF games (and it's etymology in mythology), it pretty much underlines that "death is manflu for Ascians". ;)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s what they felt happened. But considering he wasn’t trapped in auracite, which we’re told is the only way to effectively defeat them, the logical conclusion is he’s somewhere in the lifestream.

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Which I think makes sense as with Emet literally showed up to bail us out against Elidibus. It could very well be that a substantial enough attack scatters their aether enough to make it seem like they are dead and thus they need something more than just their own will to reform.

Maybe they will summon Lahabrea as a primal. I guess Fandaniel did know him well enough. So it is possible that a Lahabrea primal will act like the original one. Ascian primals are possible.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s what they felt happened. But considering he wasn’t trapped in auracite, which we’re told is the only way to effectively defeat them, the logical conclusion is he’s somewhere in the lifestream.

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The Auracite isn't really an absolutely necessary step.
The reason they couldn't be killed was because they could use their powers to escape to The Chrysalis (the place where you fought against Nabriales) and freely recover there, then come back and just take over a new body. The Auracite's entire purpose was to stop them from teleporting away after their host body was destroyed and their soul could actually be finished off while they were stuck inside the Auracite.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Elidibus's comments cemented that even further stating "I alone remain" ( of the Unsundered) in the stinger of ShB.

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and yet the WoL summons emet to get them back from the void :P

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

and yet the WoL summons emet to get them back from the void :P

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Wol summons a shade of Hades, not the actual hades for the record

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Originally Posted by Rymi64

Wol summons a shade of Hades, not the actual hades for the record

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Odd for a mere shade summoned by an incomplete soul (according to ascians) to have the ability to call back not just one but 8 people back from literal oblivion.