This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Yoshi-P has gone on record saying tuning is designed to allow people who aren't aware of how poor they were performing to be carried without much issue. While not applicable to savage/ultimate, the goal by design is to complete the duty, not complete the duty as effectively as possible. They want casual players who aren't trying extra to be able to complete things, and that's why things are as easy as they are.

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Personally, I'm perfectly okay with that. Do I wish that some people would try harder? Of course. But I'm not bothered one bit by the way a lot of content is designed.

I think what the game needs is something like WoW's Mage Tower. Challenging solo content that rewards a very desirable aesthetic reward. To get it you need to know your class.

Gives people incentive to really learn their kits without having to throw them into Extreme or Savage content with a group.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I think what the game needs is something like WoW's Mage Tower. Challenging solo content that rewards a very desirable aesthetic reward. To get it you need to know your class.

Gives people incentive to really learn their kits without having to throw them into Extreme or Savage content with a group.

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So long as the content and/or rewards aren't removed like what happened to the Mage Tower, I'd be fine with something like this. It'd be fun.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

That's not how I feel, that's how it is.
There is no subjectivity here to say otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.
You are rewarded for doing content, not for carrying people.

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The content is design to be done by players who are less skilled or don't need to try. Content gets done by these people. The roulette is design to reward for you doing easy content and yes even carry people. So you can say dishonest all you want, but when the devs says it time and time again how they design df content, and how they encourages players just to have fun in it. Not to worry about being carried or not. I think you have your answer. Accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

*snip*

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I don't know why you think I care how the content was designed or why you're so hung up on that strawman.

If player 1 does more work than player 2 or vice versa and they both get the same reward then you're not getting rewarded for carrying anyone, they're being rewarded for doing the content.

I don't mind if you advocate for equity but don't don't hide behind equality.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I'll always agree to the game having some sort of soft rating or grading system to help players see their shortcomings (and give score chasers a chance to SSS+ rank everything if they want to). And I absolutely agree to the game doing a better job of teaching players how to play.

However, though, and it always comes up in threads like this, I think we need to stop treating under performing players as leechers who intentionally free-ride to get clears and loot. You have no idea why a player is underperforming and, as others have noted, the only real and legitimate "fail state" for content is to not clear said content. Maybe a player doesn't even know they're not performing well. Maybe a player can tell they're not doing well but doesn't know why because the game doesn't tell them. Maybe they know they're not great but aren't dedicated enough to spend their valuable game time outside of the game researching on third party sources how to get better. Maybe they have legitimate and real mental or physical challenges that prevent them from performing better than they do. Etc. Or, sure, maybe they are just a leecher who doesn't care.

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Almost all of these "innocent" scenarios you described would benefit greatly from what you suggested in the paragraph before: An in-game feedback system that grades your performance and overall contribution level. Ironically, the same people who say "this game will only ever cater to casuals" are the same people who chase you with fire and pitchforks if you mention anything remotely similar to a parsing tool.

There are many many people in this game adamantly against anything that would suggest one player is better than another. We live in a Participation Trophy era.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

Ironically, the same people who say "this game will only ever cater to casuals" are the same people who chase you with fire and pitchforks if you mention anything remotely similar to a parsing tool.

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Honestly, it's not on those saying the game will largely cater to casuals. It's on those who just refuse to accept it. It's a fact, and one that the developers themselves have not been shy about admitting to. I'm also not one to grab my pitchfork every time a parsing tool is brought up, yet here I stand disagreeing with this mindset. I must be an anomaly!

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I don't know why you think I care how the content was designed or why you're so hung up on that strawman.

If player 1 does more work than player 2 or vice versa and they both get the same reward then you're not getting rewarded for carrying anyone, they're being rewarded for doing the content.

I don't mind if you advocate for equity but don't don't hide behind equality.

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look at their post history

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I'll always agree to the game having some sort of soft rating or grading system to help players see their shortcomings (and give score chasers a chance to SSS+ rank everything if they want to). And I absolutely agree to the game doing a better job of teaching players how to play.

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I will bring this up every time this discussion occurs. I want an end-of-instance grading scale that shows you how you can improve. It doesn't show anyone else's data to anyone else, just where you personally rank among your group.

https://whyigame.files.wordpress.com...nze.jpg?w=1200
(It took account of ties too)
(Dont' pay any mind to the bronze reward, it's not for individual performance, but for completing/not completing certain optional challenges in the instance, which is ANOTHER thing I want xiv to do lmao)

Give me a ranking of
#x in survivability. (How much avoidable damage you ate vs dodged)
#x in damage. (pretty straight forward. The game already tracks this *points to UwU*)
#x in teamwork. (Probably have to take into account job/role DPS, cards/strategem usage, and avoiding overheal for healers (whms could get overheal weighted less when using assize), DPS, interjects, Boss stability and party mitigation for tanks, and buffs and role utilities for dps. It would all be weighted differently depending on how much your role has to offer. (yes role, because if a brd has no chance of beating a similarly skilled sam on dps, then they should get somethin' on this ranking))
and then a time to complete.

Each section could have a mouse-over tip of something your play could improve with depending on how they were messing up in the run

Survivability: Remember to dodge out of the way before the cast is finished!" or "Avert your gaze when you see (picture of that eye gaze icon)"
Damage: mind your positionals / Always Be Casting, or even "make sure you use X ability!" if, say, a blackmage wasn't keeping enochian up, or a smn was letting garuda hang out during a boss
Teamwork: yeah it would have to be more personalized like "Use addle if you think a target is casting a magic attack!" or "Warden's paean can help cure what ails you or a teammate!".

Sure it would be some upfront cost in implementation, but damn would it be more useful to the general player than another stone sky sea (yeuck!)

It's just how streaming (used to) beat piracy. Ya can't beat these things by saying "oh golly gosh, pweeze don't use them". Ya beat them by providing an accessible means to their proper function in a place you can control. Proper use of a dps meter and logging sites aren't "to see how big your number is" it's to see feedback on what your doing, how your changes affect your performance, and how others who are performing better than you achieve that success. And that's why stone sky sea is not going to stop anyone from using logs, and why it's not going to help anyone who needs to improve. (well one reason why, the other reason is because it's optional and out of the way. Seriously stone sky sea is the worst.)

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

In my experience, that's the very definition of "elitism". Deciding based on subjective reasons who should and shouldn't get rewards. It's a slipper slope and introducing any form of punishment invariably will go too far in the wrong direction. Maybe that wasn't the intention, but it's where I've seen such thoughts go toward.

I feel that hobostew nailed the issue, that it's just the over-arching structure of the groups for the instance that's the issue. Not being able to kick/remove seriously problematic people is a core issue that I agree, hopefully gets addressed in the future.

But to reiterate, anything involving punishment on one end and extra rewards on the other isn't a practice I ever want to see again. I saw that too much in WoW and it resulted in making the game unpleasant to play because if you weren't part of the top-tier, then you were considered garbage.

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Someone performing at 80% of their job, vs someone doing 30, isn't "subjective".

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Honestly, it's not on those saying the game will only cater to casuals. It's on those who just refuse to accept it. It's a fact, and one that the developers themselves have not been shy about admitting to. I'm also not one to grab my pitchfork every time a parsing tool is brought up, yet here I stand disagreeing with this mindset. I must be an anomaly!

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Developers change their minds all the time. SE has many times shown their direction can be influenced by the community. Quitting, and rolling over to show your belly just because to date a developer has disagreed with you, is not how you get meaningful change. The truth is: one group of people are fighting to make the game better, and one group is fighting convince others to give up and accept the flaws. Maybe you should re-evaluate what camp you fall under?

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

Maybe you should re-evaluate what camp you fall under?

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Perfectly happy where I am, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Yoshi-P has gone on record saying tuning is designed to allow people who aren't aware of how poor they were performing to be carried without much issue. While not applicable to savage/ultimate, the goal by design is to complete the duty, not complete the duty as effectively as possible. They want casual players who aren't trying extra to be able to complete things, and that's why things are as easy as they are.

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Living in ignorance is a terrible solution.

I find it funny that someone tagged this thread as "elitist drama" for daring to suggest the game implement systems that encourage people to actually improve.

The current way of things just makes it so people are going to be in for a very rude awakening if/when they decide to start attempting harder content and get grouped with others who are actually cognizant of their mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I don't know why you think I care how the content was designed or why you're so hung up on that strawman.

If player 1 does more work than player 2 or vice versa and they both get the same reward then you're not getting rewarded for carrying anyone, they're being rewarded for doing the content.

I don't mind if you advocate for equity but don't don't hide behind equality.

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Well if you don't care how the game is design, and the people who made the game states it is ok. That is a you problem not another player problem.

The head guy says that is what the system is for. What more proof do you want?

Sadly the comments in this thread and every other thread regarding this issue are just proof that personal accountability within FFXIV causal content is a pipe dream.

This is why I support people being liberal with their vote kicks see a leech kick them without saying a word.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sadly the comments in this thread and every other thread regarding this issue are just proof that personal accountability within FFXIV causal content is a pipe dream.

This is why I support people being liberal with their vote kicks see a leech kick them without saying a word.

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and some people are reporting they are getting in trouble for kicking for no reason. So do so at your own risk.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sadly the comments in this thread and every other thread regarding this issue are just proof that personal accountability within FFXIV causal content is a pipe dream.

This is why I support people being liberal with their vote kicks see a leech kick them without saying a word.

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I also support opening up vote kicks. The simple fact of the matter is that the "conspiratorial vote kick" that is imagined by these worrywarts is basically nonexistent - it's hard enough in this game to coordinate kicking a player who has been offline for 5+ minutes; almost nobody is going to scheme with their 2 other cohorts to boot some poor innocent. You've got to be just outright garbage at your job to catch the attention of 3 randos to the degree that they're giving you the boot.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

A good example is DRN speed run parties vs DF. You can literally get a relic using speed runs vs 2 DRN via PF. This shows how inefficient DF truly is and how bare-minimums are the name of the game.

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Just last week, I ran a DR through Duty Finder that took nearly an hour because only three people bothered with essences and/or actions. Contrast that to the speed run PF I joined later that same evening where I completed almost four in that same time frame. Naturally, a more organized PF will perform better as it attracts better players but the difference shouldn't be that staggering. It honestly speaks volumes to how poor a reception farming for clusters was. Which is the same issue Pagos had. The dev team needs to accept players just aren't going to farm mobs unless they're forced to. Nor will they spend gil.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Yoshi-P has gone on record saying tuning is designed to allow people who aren't aware of how poor they were performing to be carried without much issue. While not applicable to savage/ultimate, the goal by design is to complete the duty, not complete the duty as effectively as possible. They want casual players who aren't trying extra to be able to complete things, and that's why things are as easy as they are.

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I'd have less of a problem with that stance if he didn't come out and constantly ask better players to "pick of the slack" (his words). When Castrum was basically getting ignored, he asked people to keep queuing to help other players despite their being no incentive whatsoever to do. I'm all for helping people who are genuinely trying, but DR has shown a frightening number of people who are doing little more than leeching. Keep in mind, if you're queuing for DR without an Essence, it's no different than having permanent Brick of Death. The damage difference is insane.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I find it funny that someone tagged this thread as "elitist drama" for daring to suggest the game implement systems that encourage people to actually improve.

The current way of things just makes it so people are going to be in for a very rude awakening if/when they decide to start attempting harder content and get grouped with others who are actually cognizant of their mistakes.

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You would be surprised but there are actually people out there who defend even the laziest person in the world and make excuses for their incompetence.

Next time you talk in public group try criticizing some random driver who drives 75km/h in 100km/h limit. You will be surprised to hear some make excuses instead of burning the driver for making everyone's life bad for that moment

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

and some people are reporting they are getting in trouble for kicking for no reason. So do so at your own risk.

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It is worth the risk cause if you say nothing, and do not say anything inflammatory afterwards in chat, let is be real how can they prove you are lying for when they ask you why you kicked someone? Be smart about it and you will be fine, I say this as a someone that removes people for some dumb reasons. :P

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Originally Posted by Jin-

You would be surprised but there are actually people out there who defend even the laziest person in the world and make excuses for their incompetence.

Next time you talk in public group try criticizing some random driver who drives 75km/h in 100km/h limit. You will be surprised to hear some make excuses instead of burning the driver for making everyone's life bad for that moment

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Yep. Or, to stick with driving, there's always the person who stops an entire line of cars to let someone in or across a lane of traffic because they're so generous. Except, of course, that they're inconveniencing (and sometimes even endangering) a large group of people just to prove how amazingly kind they are to one. It's a form of narcissism - a desperate need to show off how charitable you are in front of an audience; to even juxtapose that audience's impatience against your serene benevolence.

Human beings are, generally speaking, both predictable and stupid.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

almost nobody is going to scheme with their 2 other cohorts to boot some poor innocent.

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You are replying to the person who does this, proudly. Not necessarily to "poor innocents" but people who they don't want in the party for whatever reason. And in a 4 person party I believe it only takes 2 people to kick another.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You are replying to the person who does this, proudly. Not necessarily to "poor innocents" but people who they don't want in the party for whatever reason. And in a 4 person party I believe it only takes 2 people to kick another.

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by Awha

This is true.

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Whatever anyone says about you...

at least you're consistent.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

You would be surprised but there are actually people out there who defend even the laziest person in the world and make excuses for their incompetence.

Next time you talk in public group try criticizing some random driver who drives 75km/h in 100km/h limit. You will be surprised to hear some make excuses instead of burning the driver for making everyone's life bad for that moment

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it must be a horrible curse to be so godlike that you know the reasons for everything

lazy and unwilling to do the work is one thing, but you, you can tell if they have computer issues, or car troubles by simply thinking about it. you are truly amazing, and should be worshipped as a god because you truly know all.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

You would be surprised but there are actually people out there who defend even the laziest person in the world and make excuses for their incompetence.

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You know, I've never met the laziest person in the world in real life, let alone in this game. Go find another strawman.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

it must be a horrible curse to be so godlike that you know the reasons for everything

lazy and unwilling to do the work is one thing, but you, you can tell if they have computer issues, or car troubles by simply thinking about it. you are truly amazing, and should be worshipped as a god because you truly know all.

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It's funny how everyone suddenly has hardware issues and a disability the moment someone asks for more than being semi-afk leeching.

Bottom - up approach :

They let you ban any person (personally), you will never queue with that person again.

Top - down approach :

Algorithm, data collection, behavior analysis (in game or off game, private or public), centrally maintained social credit, so you (being analyzed as player type A) will never be grouped with them (player types that is not A) in the first place.

Of COURSE we picked the later, I, I mean we, cannot interact with "THOSE PEOPLE" (yikes), not even once, please!!!

Performance grading display at the end of every content is a good idea, but ONLY if it shows only YOUR performance and no one else.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

It's funny how everyone suddenly has hardware issues and a disability the moment someone asks for more than being semi-afk leeching.

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if you bothered to read, you might have noticed I am not okay with afk leeching, at all. but its amazing how anyone that might not perform up to the demanded elite standards is a semi-afk leech

as a note for the inclusion of "how you did" warm elite feeling post encounter stats. I played game that posted those, but they were posted for ALL the participants to see.

I was a player that worked hard, according to other people in the guild, I did everything right, they watched me, they gave suggestions I followed, and I consistently was in the bottom 3 for damage. my gear was great, I knew my combos, but I could not get out of the basement. after a bit it was frustrating as heck. so if something like that is implemented here, the afk people, wont give a damn, thats for sure. but the people trying actually hard, will generally get frustrated and leave.

if someone is gaming the system to get through, in my opinion, they arent playing anyway so kick them. as I have said many times, I dont excuse or condone or in any way excuse afk leeches. they are about the same level as players that use bots in my opinion. but not everyone that isnt up to your standards is a leech. we all have different play styles and ability when doing so. you do you. I'll continue to do what I can to kick dead weight from parties I am in, but people who are trying, I am certainly going to do what I can to help. and making the game tell someone they had a garbage run so you dont have to be reported for doing so, is just a cheap way out. besides, for anyone actually trying, I am pretty sure they know if they had a bad run already.

The standard set by developers is that as long as the content gets done. It is ok to leech. So this crying about people leeching is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

It's funny how everyone suddenly has hardware issues and a disability the moment someone asks for more than being semi-afk leeching.

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Interestingly enough, going to ignore the hardware blah cause that is moot and a non issue - gonna focus on what really seems directive and the primary reason you made this comment. So, just an FYI, most (not all, but most) Disabled Persons will almost always in some manner inform their group prior of said situation long before a run is planned out. Including as well, keeping up reminders of what they are limited to and excel at - using their weakness as a strength to maximize their enjoyment while trying to be mindful of others in multiple situations to have as few situational issues as possible.

While there are a few that will abuse the notion of said claim without any credibility - it is still a very obtuse and obscure blanket statement that you simply made to gratify your own self worth by flexing that imaginary credibility over others by soapboxing for those who cry oppression (Player X and Z are leeching! Poor Me!) when in reality, it is just a simple annoyance that has an already made solutions to fix said problem. Kick said problem players, or start your own personal hand picked group of those you trust.

This thread, from they very first post to even this one here is nothing short of Anecdotal. As well everything said here should be taken with a grain of salt cause each and every personal experiences, though may similar are never the same. Even if multiple people grouped at the same time will share different tellings based on what they observed and experienced.

as a last note on this, after thinking about it, and remembering, Vindictus, the game I was in, has this system. the only difference is, you cannot boost your characters so you actually have to play the character to cap.

your %'s are posted for every dungeon to everyone. under, I think its... 5% you get no loot and minimal xp

at level cap, when I was playing, there were still your afk leeches and those that could not play their class. in my experience, which is all I have to go by, this will not fix your perceived issue. people who will leech will still leech, because, they dont care.

I mean, the simple fact of the matter is that once SE gets into a mindset that they're going to punish players for engaging with their game, then they're going to lose subs. They're not going to make a stupid business decision like that.

People also have to get this idea out of their heads that more gates in the game will make people try harder. It won't. They will just leave. Which is not something SE wants, so they're not going to make another stupid business decision like that.

Since this thread has a few Save the Queen related details in here, might as well bring up a few things.

Remember the thread I made several months back? Here is the link for it:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...grade-for-5.5-...

The above thread link presented a suggesting of making a certain amount of essences and/or lost actions required in the Lost Finds Cache before progressing onto the relic. Something similar to how Pyros and Hydator progressed with the respective relic steps. Well that plea fell on deaf ears. As a result, to the surprise of no one, people have no essence effects on them in Save the Queen areas, especially in Delebrum Reginae runs.


I've seen most players have Lost Actions to supplement their gameplay, though other players may need a little help understanding and/or being aware of them. Lost Actions with other players aren't too problematic overall.

What really sets other players apart from each other is how they utilize their Essences. Many would write them off for being usable in only the instance they are on. But at the end of the day, extra HP/Defense/Offense would really help clear things more efficiently.

SE probably thought that players would actually go out of their way to gather essences, lost actions, and the like (Valor) to not be a hindrance to their party. Unfortunately, many players would rather waste their own and other's time instead of doing so. Even if essences or lost actions were permanent (no usage limits) I suspect many would STILL not use them, and even if they were automatically applied, I bet people would go out of their way not to unlock them if they didn't have to, to complete the content.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Well if you don't care how the game is design, and the people who made the game states it is ok. That is a you problem not another player problem.

The head guy says that is what the system is for. What more proof do you want?

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Why would I care about the way something is 'supposed' to be when things in actuality are different?
I don't know what "problem" you're even talking about because you don't even understand what you're talking about. Where in this conversation have I said there is a problem?

The law is designed to stop other people from infringing on other's rights yet it still happens.
There's the way things are supposed to be and then there is reality.

You are not rewarded for carrying people, you are rewarded for completing the content, are you contrary to this statement? It's a yes or no question. At least be honest with yourself.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

SE probably thought that players would actually go out of their way to gather essences, lost actions, and the like (Valor) to not be a hindrance to their party. Unfortunately, many players would rather waste their own and other's time instead of doing so. Even if essences or lost actions were permanent (no usage limits) I suspect many would STILL not use them, and even if they were automatically applied, I bet people would go out of their way not to unlock them if they didn't have to, to complete the content.

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Well I mean, can you blame them? They don't want to be there in the first place. The devs decided to ignore the complaints against Eureka and tie the relic to Bozja. They just first did a ( rather underhanded all said) step that didn't require Bozja at all, then switcherroo'd everyone. I have friends who hate and resent every second they have to engage with Bozja, but they do it for the relic. They are not going to spend a second longer in that place than they need to for relic progression. SE created this monster by ignoring feedback. If they want to help, then they should have relic quests reward these items that can be used in the instances and have them auto-trigger when going in, or something along those lines. Could be special versions that are key items, just to get through things. For instances that have to be run multiple times, make it a repeatable quest.