Multi-tank busters should apply to the main tank in an alliance instead of a DPS

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

It's okay if you don't understand what you're being told.

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more like you don't want to read the thread then you see the word buster and give me a copy pasted response

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Not "the mechanics", a specific mechanic that you may unexpectedly get marked for if the tank is dead.

If you get that marker, it is now your job as the person with the marker to stand clear of the party.

I don't know why people are even talking about enmity in regard to this mechanic if it's going to target the tank regardless of their status, as long as they are alive. If they're dead, it doesn't matter how much enmity they previously had. Neither will Diversion stop the mechanic from passing to a non-tank member of the party, whether it's you or not.

Trying to pass it around would only sow more chaos at a party scale, even if it helps you individually.

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Most people that main tanks as there #1 job don't consider this an issue. I have NEVER thought for a second enmity was hard to handle. 2.0 maybe until I got better ilevel gear and those dang DRG BLM OP damage were hard to keep at bay....but NEVER did I struggle with it. I still had provoke if I got frustrated.

If I get the tank buster marker as a MNK, because the tank died prior...well thems the brakes and there is nothing I can do about it. I suppose I can be happy that I was chosen due to my high DPS output.

This has become a non-sense post about things that some don't fully grasp, and simple practice and understanding a fight will fix. As opposed to "fix the fight so I don't have to work"

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I'll second that this is completely rubbish, I've often been an OT in alliance without stance and still taken the intended simultaneous tankbuster while a couple DPS were ahead of me on the aggro list.

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And I have definitely taken 1 of the 3 tankbusters as a DPS even in an Alliance Raid fight without any tank having yet died. The tank-targeting (rather than lead-enmity-targeting) mechanics are not quite ubiquitous.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

"I didn't like what happened in an Alliance raid so change the game for me, please."

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To be fair, every change or addition can be seen as having a similarly "selfish" basis...

"I don't like having to manually find which bag my item is in so change the game for me, please." --> Item-search function.

"I don't like having to check which boxes are filled to the right of each tab within the duty list to see what all I'm signed up so change the game for me, please." --> List of duties one has signed up for included at the bottom of the duty list.

"I don't like being unable to use glamour in PvP so change the game for me, please." --> The dev team finally manages what they a few months earlier called technically and forever impossible and is able to hold appearance data between servers.

"I don't like having to possibly hold off on generating enmity for a moment during a tank swap so change the game for me, please." --> Shirk added.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

This has become a non-sense post about things that some don't fully grasp, and simple practice and understanding a fight will fix. As opposed to "fix the fight so I don't have to work"

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Everything about this thread's request is from a non-tank's perspective. What "work" would a DPS be expected to do by which to survive a hit for 50% more than their max HP?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"I don't like having to possibly hold off on generating enmity for a moment during a tank swap so change the game for me, please." --> Shirk added.

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Shirk was added to combat this entire post, it was added to PREVENT DPS and Healers from having enmity creep.

As off tank I would shirk ALL the time just to keep the really high DPS/Healers from overtaking. Just check the agro list...BLM is close....shirk....voila BLM drops considerably lower in the agro table and i'm still second as OT. Not their fault...they just have good DPS.

The same was for Diversion. It was there SOLEY to prevent grabbing highest enmity.

Shirk/Provoke has to be the greatest tool tanks have at their disposal aside from invulns. The control of enmity and where the boss is focusing is crucial in any encounter. Tank swaps would force MT to stop DPSing so the OT could ramp up after a provoke.

Shirk is incredibly powerful, and I don't think it was added to make fights easier...I think it was added because they didn't know how to fix enmity generation at the time. Now Shirk/Provoke is used for quite literally EVERY tank swap. When I hear tank swap in a fight....I get my shirk macro ready.

I would prefer more tank swaps in fights just to keep tanks on their toes. Personally.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

Point is, the second in the enmity list should be a tank.

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Thats great and all, but its entirely irrelevant to what OP is talking about.

In the Nier raids, multi hit tank busters apply to all three tanks regardless of where they are on the aggro list. If Alliance A's tank is dead or DC'd, even if Alliance B and C are first and second respectively on the aggro list, the top DPS in Alliance A is going to take the third tank buster regardless.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Shirk was added to combat this entire post, it was added to PREVENT DPS and Healers from having enmity creep.

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It neither combats anything in the OP nor my post. In an alliance raid with a "tankbuster" mechanic that targets the highest enmity player (rather than the tank) in each party, "enmity creep" (a non-issue regardless if (A) tanks had their stances on, (B) the stances were on by default, or (C) those mechanics were swapped to target tanks, not lead enmity) cannot be usefully combatted by Shirk, because you (1) need that enmity for yourself and (2) cannot Shirk the tanks from the other parties' tanks with Shirk regardless.

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The same was for Diversion. It was there SOLEY to prevent grabbing highest enmity.

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These things cannot both be true, seeing as Shirk was not similarly singular in its purpose. In the LL introducing it, Shirk was given as an aid to smooth tank swaps. Yes, it could be used in multi-tank parties for periodic enmity transfer when coupled with Provoke, but that then means it had two ways to utilize it. Diversion has only ever had the one use. And it was removed for being mere bloat as soon as it was understood that it was pure maintenance.

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Shirk/Provoke has to be the greatest tool tanks have at their disposal aside from invulns. The control of enmity and where the boss is focusing is crucial in any encounter. Tank swaps would force MT to stop DPSing so the OT could ramp up after a provoke.

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All this is wholly irrelevant to the thread at hand, but a brief correction: a tank swap would only force downtime if done poorly.

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Shirk is incredibly powerful, and I don't think it was added to make fights easier...I think it was added because they didn't know how to fix enmity generation at the time.

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Then it's pure bloat. If it's literally just adding enmity generation by periodic use, that could be have been more efficiently provided by a simply increase to their enmity scaling, or even slight modifications to Provoke itself.

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I would prefer more tank swaps in fights just to keep tanks on their toes. Personally.

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Same. Again, though, that has nothing to do with this thread.

It is, again:

1. For ALLIANCE RAIDS
2. when a TANK HAS DIED
3. such that TANKS TAKE ON THE BURDEN OF TANKS' SCREW-UPS, rather than a random non-tank being killed for having played well.

I still think that these responsibilities should be handed out on a party basis, not relying on people across different parties to know whether or not a tank has died. Or, given that all the tank buster indicators are the same, it's not like it'd be easy to tell at a glance if you had a double tank buster. Or in the case of something like Thunder God, where it applies physical vuln, this change has the super cool effect of instantly killing another tank no matter what! Which would be very stupid.

If someone on your team dies, the healers or SMN/RDM have to get them up. If the tank is dumb and dies, and you wind up getting a TB, that's just how it is. It's not all the tanks collective responsibility to keep one another alive, they have zero ability to do so. They can't share mitigation (aside from Reprisal) and whatever person is holding the main boss has as much obligation to either ST as any other melee -- make sure they can hit it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And I have definitely taken 1 of the 3 tankbusters as a DPS even in an Alliance Raid fight without any tank having yet died. The tank-targeting (rather than lead-enmity-targeting) mechanics are not quite ubiquitous.

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If you can tell me which simultaneous buster it was that you took, that targeted you instead of a tank, in an alliance raid with all three tanks alive, then I will happily concede if I am wrong in my assumption but thus far my anecdotal experience having tanked every alliance raid many times over, would tell me your statement is false.

If there's no risk of an untanked mob killing players, what is the point in having tanks? You might as well invite Trust system Thancred to auto-position, auto-mitigate, and auto-tank the bosses for you, and let all the existing tanks swap over to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If there's no risk of an untanked mob killing players, what is the point in having tanks? You might as well invite Trust system Thancred to auto-position, auto-mitigate, and auto-tank the bosses for you, and let all the existing tanks swap over to DPS.

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This thread has never had anything to do with untanked mobs, though, so much as just Alliance Raid tri-tank-busters?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It is, again:[/B]

1. For ALLIANCE RAIDS
2. when a TANK HAS DIED
3. such that TANKS TAKE ON THE BURDEN OF TANKS' SCREW-UPS, rather than a random non-tank being killed for having played well.

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It is not random. If a member of your party messes up your party gets punished.

Punishing the other tanks who might be doing their job well is an even worse idea, especially since many of those tri-tank busters include AoE elements and short magic vuln debuffs to prevent the tanks from stacking together or with the main body of the alliance. Also if these tank targeted AoEs did not target a member of the dead tank's party it would simplify the fight as the alliance would need to avoid fewer of these AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It is not random. If a member of your party messes up your party gets punished.

Punishing the other tanks who might be doing their job well is an even worse idea, especially since many of those tri-tank busters include AoE elements and short magic vuln debuffs to prevent the tanks from stacking together or with the main body of the alliance. Also if these tank targeted AoEs did not target a member of the dead tank's party it would simplify the fight as the alliance would need to avoid fewer of these AoEs.

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I'm not saying that would be preferable, only that enmity has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand -- nor, therefore, would tanks be made any more "braindead" through the changes the OP has suggested, let alone that the OP is just too lazy to turn on their tank stance (as a DPS?). The OP was all of two sentences; I had hoped we could read that far, but quickly found otherwise given many of the replies here.

This part, though, is irrelevant. You just have "both strikes" (or simply, double the damage) hit simultaneously. The only way for it to go Damage-Vuln, Damage-Vuln instead of simply Damagex2, Vulnx2, is if you purposely built in that delay to mimic the delay faced by any single multi-target action as it chains through its affectable enemies.

Tanking and healing are team-orientated roles. If you mess up, it impacts other people. That can be frustrating for those other players, oh no. But if you try to take away that potential frustration, tanking and healing lose their value. This has probably been the single biggest complaint from both the healer subforum and our subforums this expansion. We get that you don't want to interrupt the DPS single player experience, given that most of your lovely sub/mogstation money comes from them. But if you cater too hard to that, nobody wants to play the other roles.

Oh no, if the tank messes up positioning and movement, my positionals will be affected. Solution: Boss tanks itself, and probably is standing off the edge of the map.
Oh no, if the tank dies and wipes the raid, I will die too. Solution: Mitigation is trivial, squishy robe wearers can take boss autos, and there's a backup tank twiddling their thumbs waiting for the chance to provoke.

Next expansion: Due to concerns about tank mistakes impacting other players, we will only allow one tank in the arena at a time. All other tanks will be placed in cages outside, to be released into the wild one at a time when the previous tank dies. And if they all die, Thancred shows up to tank the boss.

The fact that we actually see the fight designers actually trying to give all three tanks something to do in an alliance raid is a baby step in the right direction to keep your tanks all from chain provoking the boss off of each other in a fit of sheer boredom (oh wait, that's another issue). Here's a suggestion. If you don't like being dependent on marginally competent tanks and healers, why don't you play these roles? Oh wow, I think I solved the tank/healer population problem: the devs just need to stop catering to DPS players telling them how these roles should work.

I think OP's suggestion is a good way to force more wipes. Typically it seems like one good full party can help carry the alliance raid by being on top of their game. This seems like it would punish the alliance party that has the most competent players.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I think OP's suggestion is a good way to force more wipes.

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For an average fight, probably, as it'd increase the chances of a further tank dying, and they tend to be more vital than DPS (again, on average in Alliance Raid fights with three simultaneous tank busters).

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This seems like it would punish the alliance party that has the most competent players.

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The most competent living tank in the alliance, only. Previously, it'd punish the most competent DPS in the party of the least competent tank. That's the switch here.

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Originally Posted by Neihel

but we're a whole alliance, that means the other tanks should take the L if another tank dies just like how if a healer dies then the other healer has to solo heal, it's been so bad in the Nier raids that I almost exclusively go as tank for them now just to avoid this mess

I mitigate and used my CDs better than the other tanks so nobody in the party has to die for tank mistakes and if it what I suggested somehow gets into the game I would happily use a holmgang for it

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You're absolutely right, the other tanks should take enmity. The game already provides them with the tools to do so. Maybe ask them why they aren't doing that?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You're absolutely right, the other tanks should take enmity. The game already provides them with the tools to do so. Maybe ask them why they aren't doing that?

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They literally can't. The three-way tankbuster will strike 3 enemies regardless, the tank of each party if available and the highest enmity of each party if not.

They cannot Cover an Alliance member, only a party member. They cannot Shake it Off, Heart of Light, Dark Messenger, Passage of Arms, Divine Veil, Intervention, The Blackest Night, Nascent Flash, or Heart of Stone them, either. Nor will flat shields be sufficient to keep their lead DPS from dying to the tankbuster. That leaves only for the DPS to decide where they'd like to die, rather than any potential use of mitigation tools in the missing tank's place.

I guess we should now also make DPS unkillable by raidwide aoes, because it's not their fault that the healer died or didn't heal them enough...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Tanking and healing are team-orientated roles. If you mess up, it impacts other people. That can be frustrating for those other players, oh no. But if you try to take away that potential frustration, tanking and healing lose their value. This has probably been the single biggest complaint from both the healer subforum and our subforums this expansion. We get that you don't want to interrupt the DPS single player experience, given that most of your lovely sub/mogstation money comes from them. But if you cater too hard to that, nobody wants to play the other roles.

Oh no, if the tank messes up positioning and movement, my positionals will be affected. Solution: Boss tanks itself, and probably is standing off the edge of the map.
Oh no, if the tank dies and wipes the raid, I will die too. Solution: Mitigation is trivial, squishy robe wearers can take boss autos, and there's a backup tank twiddling their thumbs waiting for the chance to provoke.

Next expansion: Due to concerns about tank mistakes impacting other players, we will only allow one tank in the arena at a time. All other tanks will be placed in cages outside, to be released into the wild one at a time when the previous tank dies. And if they all die, Thancred shows up to tank the boss.

The fact that we actually see the fight designers actually trying to give all three tanks something to do in an alliance raid is a baby step in the right direction to keep your tanks all from chain provoking the boss off of each other in a fit of sheer boredom (oh wait, that's another issue). Here's a suggestion. If you don't like being dependent on marginally competent tanks and healers, why don't you play these roles? Oh wow, I think I solved the tank/healer population problem: the devs just need to stop catering to DPS players telling them how these roles should work.

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All roles are team oriented roles. You seem to have a chip.on your shoulder in regards to dps players.

I've mained healer this entire expansion, but sometimes I want to play something more engaging in the form of dps. The response when I express frustration for dying to a tank or healer mistake on one of the few times i'm not playing tank or healer should not be "just play healer or tank all the time."

Not entirely.

The reason why DPS tends to be so popular is because it's a single player game. You jump into it and do your thing. Sure, you can do some vaguely helpful things for other players if you want. But people get upset at anything that encroaches on that single player experience. This thread is the embodiment of that mindset. Why should I have to suffer for someone else's mistakes? Well, it's a team game.

People specifically pick tanks and healers so that there are other people relying on them. If you take that away, everyone will play DPS.

It should at least target someone random instead of just the person who's performing the best.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It should at least target someone random instead of just the person who's performing the best.

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Nah. I actually like it when I get to Titan Shield nonsense I’m not supposed to live as a DPS. Makes me feel like a teamplayer when the scant utility I have manages to give the other roles enough time and ability to recover, even when it’s clearly designed for personal mistakes. It’s why it bothers me that SE doesn’t make use of the full set of utilities all roles offer and add more ways to interact with mobs into role actions. Maximizing DPS is fine and all, but it’s only one aspect of the encounter. Tee’s way more fun to be had on the blue and green sides of the role list if SE was more willing to stretch the breadth of their kits and encounter design.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It should at least target someone random instead of just the person who's performing the best.

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I'd just like it to at least be adjusted to something that still has agency beyond picking a gravesite. A stupidly shallow (but hopefully effective) example: tank's split marker instead becomes a stack marker that deals both split instant and split lengthy periodic damage. It's therefore salvageable, but it really sucks. Just... in a way people can actually do something about.

Your suggestion would at least would be less counterintuitively punishing for others (doing well = die) while still punishing for the tank (you die = someone else dies, too). That seems a net positive to me.

The OP's meanwhile, at least puts mitigation interactions back in the hands of the role with mitigation, but it does seem to step into precedents I'm not sure I want.

They could always make Cover work on other alliance members. You should have a tank solution to a tank mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

They could always make Cover work on other alliance members. You should have a tank solution to a tank mechanic.

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A bit job-constrained as a solution to the OP's problem presented, but yeah, definitely.

To be fair, I also wouldn't mind Alliance Raid single-tank tankbusters being strong enough to require external mitigation from other tanks if down to a mere Rampart or so, and/or tank swaps -- assuming we'd be willing to delimit the other tank external mitigation tools as well.

So it potentially oneshots the very healer that tries to res the tank?

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Originally Posted by Endariel

So it potentially oneshots the very healer that tries to res the tank?

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Nothing in the suggestion would cause anything like that, no, if that's what you mean.

And at present, it one-shots the the top DPS, typically. Unless the healer has been doing their best just to farm enmity (e.g., AoE overheal like crazy) over doing anything actually useful, the tankbuster with a tank down will almost always target a DPS over a healer, just due to their typically being the highest enmity party member after the tank.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I think OP's suggestion is a good way to force more wipes. Typically it seems like one good full party can help carry the alliance raid by being on top of their game. This seems like it would punish the alliance party that has the most competent players.

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More wipes would be an improvement though, it gives people an opportunity to learn

I haven't had a single wipe in any Nier raid except on the first day probably

I see some people mentioning this is a team game but if I go warrior, I do not die instantly if for example 5 people in a 24 man raid does
I've had instances with both healers dead most of the time while playing as a main tank and I was still surviving well enough on my warrior CDs

as a warrior I get rewarded for my tanking but as a dps I'll get punished for good performance

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Originally Posted by Lyth

They could always make Cover work on other alliance members. You should have a tank solution to a tank mechanic.

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Given that the problem only arises when the tank is dead so someone else gets targeted instead, the tank will probably not be available to cover damage in the first place.

Game should auto-raise healers when they are dead as well, why not at this point.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Game should auto-raise healers when they are dead as well, why not at this point.

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if you're my healer then yes we do need that

As BLM I've actually had healers /comfort me right after the tank dies and the tank buster switches to me, then I just type "sigh" in chat. Is that my reward for being highest DPS, death? I"m starting to see why people ask for more utility and defense tools on DPS. If I make a mistake and get myself killed I deserve it, but what is the point of the highest DPS dying due to tank mechanics?

I've had co-tanks run to me on accident with the tank busters and I just mitigate. I don't see the issue with the other tanks soaking another tank buster, we have a lot of defense cds for a reason. I will say tho I love that the tank busters in nier raids hurt so much, but that also means most casual tanks get one shot because hey don't use cds anyway.

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Originally Posted by Annihilism

Is that my reward for being highest DPS, death?

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Yes. And you will like it. It's much better than you or the remaining two tanks having any agency. /s