Should Dark Arts Come Back in 6.0? If so, What Should the Skill Do?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

All defensive uses of MP were dps losses.

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rDPS not only exists, but is the only thing that ultimately matters.

If doubling (or better) the mitigation of a given skill could rope in an extra Stone III back then, that was worth significantly more than our own 140 bonus potency.

I'm not saying HW accomplished that often enough. I'm merely saying that there is obviously a balancing point above which spending MP on a defensive can be an rDPS gain and beneath which it will be an rDPS loss, which is a wee bit more complicated than "I sacrificed 140 of my own potency to cast this, so it's always necessarily an (r)DPS loss."

It just didn't work out that way back then. The reason why Heavensward didn't accomplish this at all was because damage output of a tank in Heavensward overlapped with DPS, and healer dps had a lower percentage raid contribution than it does now. I know that there were quite a few ongoing debates at the time along the lines of "If I use Shield Oath, then I'm helping my team dps," but again, that just wasn't the case. It was worthwhile to use a free mitigation ability to reduce your damage intake so that it may free up a healer global. It's wasn't worthwhile to throw away potency for it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It just didn't work out that way back then. The reason why Heavensward didn't accomplish this at all was because damage output of a tank in Heavensward overlapped with DPS, and healer dps had a lower percentage raid contribution than it does now. I know that there were quite a few ongoing debates at the time along the lines of "If I use Shield Oath, then I'm helping my team dps," but again, that just wasn't the case. It was worthwhile to use a free mitigation ability to reduce your damage intake so that it may free up a healer global. It's wasn't worthwhile to throw away potency for it.

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Okay, but if/when tanks do not so outpace the combined throughput (healer rDPS saved + direct contribution + rDPS throughput facilitated through positioning, etc.) of DPS, is defensive-spending-as-an-rDPS gain something we never again want to attempt? Let's assume for a moment that tanks don't need to be brokenly OP, subtly or otherwise.

Keep in mind that defensive spending options do not necessitate that DRK has a weaker baseline mitigation kit. It only requires that they not be uniquely able to complete content through their higher (be that significantly over time or not) mitigation ceiling. Given that content must be tuned for each and every tank to complete, any such unique advantage (beyond the mere ability to carry healers in certain interactions at no rDPS cost, a mere matter of ease in progression) seems unlikely to break tank balance, especially given how any such aspect would increase DRK's skill ceiling.

Personally, I think that would be fun. I'd like more of that flexibility from other tanks, too, of course, but in general that's a bit of gameplay that I feel could, if well situated, make DRK more enjoyable. I would not, however, be that upset not to get it. It's just one of many areas of playflow that could make tanking on DRK more entertaining. Ultimately, I just want some depth and agency (i.e., less reward for merely existing, and more reward for good play, where that good play is at least somewhat involved and challenging).

There's a better way to do this than being a damage sponge. When the boss winds up for a big attack, give each tank a devastating counter that they can use to reduce the outgoing damage and make the boss vulnerable for a brief period.

Or as was suggested elsewhere, you could experiment with abilities similar to Chelonian Gate/Cold Fog, where using the defensive converts the move to a counterattack once you take damage.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's a better way to do this than being a damage sponge. When the boss winds up for a big attack, give each tank a devastating counter that they can use to reduce the outgoing damage and make the boss vulnerable for a brief period.

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No one has suggested being "a damage sponge", only that we should have more agency in our defense, rather than relying merely the exceedingly passive value of taking as it currently stands. Counterattacks can be a part of that sure, but I would hope at least as much would go towards actual tanking, rather than just being a slot-limited Blue DPS (Me no get big; me hit big back instead! And do Trick Attack!) of greater combined throughput.

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Or as was suggested elsewhere, you could experiment with abilities similar to Chelonian Gate/Cold Fog, where using the defensive converts the move to a counterattack once you take damage.

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How is that any different from our current Dark Arts, that apparently many here are finding lackluster, though? Again, sure, include that where it'd feel interesting, but how are these sufficient or mutually exclusive alternatives to having agency in our defense that doesn't just feel like "Blue DPS"?

Doing damage very much has to be a part of 'actual tanking'. If it isn't, then there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

If it's engaging defensive abilities that you want, then it has to be about timing (i.e. frequent mini-busters that you have to mitigate with short recast cooldowns, instead of invuln-swap). But that's also a fight design issue.

both a fight design issue and a fundamental design issue...
FFXIV is waaaay too "DPS is more important than aught else and only DPS matters", to the point that "Healers" are just green DPS that heal so that DPS keeps constant, and "Tanks" are just blue DPS designed to survive better than the other DPS, so that they can DPS and other DPS can DPS, without needing to worry too much about KOs impacting DPS output.

a complaint like that would be off-topic, though. back to the topic.
so the big issue at the moment is the question "how could the old Dark Arts be a non-DPS buff to defensive, self-supportive, supportive, and/or utility actions, while not reducing DPS output"?, since the main concern is not reducing DPS potential through not using Dark Arts as a direct increase to personal DPS output, then?

No, don't bring back Dark Arts. Bring back Darkside. And make it a burst phase activation ability.
Honestly, that shit that Reaper's pulling off is what Darkside should be for Dark Knight.

hmn. a interesting idea for DarkSide, I suppose... a "DPS Burst" DarkSide action could be a interesting toy to play with, but not if it is just a clone burst... while, if Dark Knight would change from WAR clone to Reaper clone, instead of finally having its own identity back, that would not be much of a improvement...

to be honest, I think that "DPS Burst" in general needs to be removed from Dark Knight, as Dark Knight being changed into a "Burst" Tank is what caused it to become the total trash 5.x ShB Dark Knight... Dark Knight needs to go back to sustained DPS design. Warrior and GunBreaker already have the Burst identity going for them, and Dark Knight should not just copy those two.

I just want the Dark Arts animation back, for a power up, AOE attack, whatever just bring it back.

I dont see them adjusting DRK. I see them doing a overhaul for WAR to make it different from DRK.

The problem with DRK is it is the only tank that has 1 combo which is a shell of 3.0 DRK. They have tried so many things with DRK but nothing beats HW DRK which are the roots of the job.

It will be really insulting if they are transforming DRK to be WAR so they can transform WAR in something else, i don't think they are so twisted minded to do such deporable thing but god lord if that happens at the end.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I don't see them adjusting DRK. I see them doing a overhaul for WAR to make it different from DRK.

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Originally Posted by shao32

It will be really insulting if they are transforming DRK to be WAR so they can transform WAR in something else, I don't think they are so twisted minded to do such deplorable thing but god lord if that happens at the end.

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if 6.0 Dark Knight just gets worse, AND that happens, it is going to be riot time.
we will need to start a organized forum collaboration riot with the Warrior mains, as I am willing to believe that both Dark Knights and Warriors are not going to stand for that... we will have the perfect excuse to take things to the extreme and even boycott in-game, pull a 5.0 Monk and go "nope, we're done." style rejection until the development team gives us both a 5.x Monk-style serious rework and Bard-style reversion.

on a different scale, I was reading some Astrologian forums and had another possible idea for if the old Dark Arts returned... what if Dark Arts was split in half?, one Dark Arts that costs resources for DPS potential gains, and another Dark Arts on CD, for defense/self-support/utility bonuses.
this is my best wishful-thinking idea for if the dev team refuses to listen to the players and still makes it so that Dark Arts is still a liability to Dark Knight's defensive strength and damage potential, which does include TBN's stupid design of being a DPS loss if it is not broken, since that version of Dark Arts counts as a liability, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Doing damage very much has to be a part of 'actual tanking'. If it isn't, then there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

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Similarly, if there isn't anything more than that, there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

If the idea of tanking is merely that I hit an enemy hard before they hit me hard, or after being hit, I can then hit for more (so that I'm dealing DPS levels of damage but there's only one permitted of me at a time), that's just Blue DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

But that's also a fight design issue.

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It is, but that has always been the case; no one has asked that interesting tank kits (can) be designed in a vacuum.

There needs to be more than tanks can do that is neither just gimmick nor should, by rights, be better done by a DPS (e.g., Senei would logically be a far better anti-tankbuster than any of the tanks' big hits if the idea is that outgoing damage can cancel/suppress incoming damage).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Doing damage very much has to be a part of 'actual tanking'. If it isn't, then there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Similarly, if there isn't anything more than that, there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

If the idea of tanking is merely that I hit an enemy hard before they hit me hard, or after being hit, I can then hit for more (so that I'm dealing DPS levels of damage but there's only one permitted of me at a time), that's just Blue DPS.

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I have to side with Shurrikhan on this one. "Tank" means a defender, not a attacker. defensive survivability and supportive "protect your allies".
or, at least, in a RPG...

but... as I did already mention before...
FFXIV is a mere glorified action game, and not a RPG, with the fundamental design flaw of "DPS is more important than aught else and only DPS matters"... in FFXIV, "tanks" are just durable damagers with defense abilities, and FFXIV "healers" are just vulnerable damagers with healing abilities.
the "it's all DPS? / always has been." meme exits for a reason...

I agree with Shurrikhan because Tanks should be actually designed as Tanks, but.. on the other scale, Lyth is also not wrong...
in FFXIV, only DPS matters, and that has to(disappointingly) be kept in mind...

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

(Above)

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To be clear, I don't mind if (or actually very much enjoy it when) roles cross, but when roles blur to the point that anything but uncapped throughputs just seem begrudged tack-ons, that seems a problem to me. It's less to me that "tanks shouldn't be primarily focused on (r)DPS" or the like (since optimization should always be a thing) as just that there is too little involved in tanking, and I feel that simply embracing that shallowness and going full Blue DPS would lead to an ultimately less engaging experience for everyone.

Tanks should not be propped up by gimmicks, but nor should the full range of their "unique" gameplay amount merely to hitting pre-scheduled mechanic-squelching buttons (as close as we currently get to active mitigation). There just needs to be more that can be done, and it shouldn't be limited to what DPS already do.

If that additional gameplay comes through universal systems and thus a solo-leveling DPS, or a tank-less light party of friends, etc., gets to engage in further aspects of "tanking", so be it. All the better, actually. There just needs to be more gameplay available to tanks (and ideally DPS and Healers, too).

I can with agree with that... roles should cross and merge.
the BullSchitt "Tank - Healer - DPS" triumvirate that FFXIV uses is another serious fundamental design flaw...

while I agree that Tanks lack in "tank(ing)"... the BS triumvirate system is ironic in this way, since the three roles "are all just DPS".
since FFXIV apparently needs to have(or is stuck with) a trash combat system no matter what(probably the consequence of basing the game off of 1.x, instead of just restarting from scratch), the triumvirate nonsense that is very clearly designed to block any sort of cross and merge of the roles, into RPG archtypes.. could at least not be ironic, and have the Blue DPS and Green DPS a little more focused on the roles that they are mimicking...
but then we come to what Lyth said, the design of fights.

fights seem and feel for the most part designed to make DPS "more important" than aught else. fight design is just... live long enough to deal enough DPS, to win. fight design also needs to change, some thing like.. in a way that makes DPS less important(bosses have smaller HP pools?), the Blue DPS needing to actually act like a tank(bosses deal higher damage and are more defense demanding? / and mechanics that ignore enmity, forcing protecting allies?), while making Healers need to heal more and DPS less(ropes in with the boss threatening the Tank's life, and threatening allies, more.)
I am too lazy at the moment to actually re-invent "fight design" in a way that makes sense, so I apologize if what I just typed seems dumb or too simple to be accurate/valid.

and all of that is to not even mention how Dark Knight's old Dark Arts action could, would, and/or should fit into this, as two common arguments so far, that I see about Dark Arts is:
one / should not be a liability to Dark Knight's defensive strength and damage potential, while also not being have to rely on it(such as the SB Dark Arts spam issue) -- two / the concern about "losing" a Dark Arts damage gain, to have to Dark Arts as a defense gain instead.
which also does not rope in either other cases where Dark Arts could be a self-support, resource, or utility gain, instead of a damage gain...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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The reason why there's so much overlap between tanks and DPS is because the concept evolved from DPS. Your traditional Fighter/Warrior job in text-based multiuser dungeons was still fundamentally a damage dealer, except that they could use Rescue abilities to intercept attacks for squishier party members. That's where the term originated, and where it was ported over to Everquest and subsequent MMOs. Early MMOs tried to make tanks into lower damage attackers that were primarily there to take damage in order to balance things out, but game designers very quickly realized that few people wanted to be a pure damage sponge, even when it meant that you were the most important person in a raid. So it's continued to evolve since. PvP is one game type where the old system definitely does not work, simply because human players don't do target prioritization based on enmity/aggro. So while tanks don't necessarily have the same 'pick potential' that true DPS have in such games, you definitely do not want to get into melee range with one.

So here's the problem. Most people don't actually like most of the 'tank' concepts that game designers have come up with historically. And when you reduce tanks' damage output while simultaneously removing the challenge and raid-wipe potential of tank specific mechanics, even fewer people are going to stick with it as a primary job, outside of levelling one up on the side to do fast queue roulettes with. You'll hit some sort of an equilibrium with that, but it's always going to be less than what you set your tank/healer/dps ratio to be, because the incentive is entirely queue time driven.

So how do you make the gameplay interesting, yet different from a pure DPS job? It really needs to come out of learning boss attack patterns/tells and learning to defend and counter them with precision. A Monster Hunter minigame. Give tanks some genuine potential to cause wipes if they're not on point. You still won't get everyone interested in the role, but at least you'll definitely find a niche of interested players. The epithet 'blue DPS' is really just a justification of why tanks aren't allowed to have impact in this game. Oh, you want impact? Then why are you a tank? Why don't you just play DPS?

Well, fine. But who are we going to con into playing tank, then?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Similarly, if there isn't anything more than that, there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

If the idea of tanking is merely that I hit an enemy hard before they hit me hard, or after being hit, I can then hit for more (so that I'm dealing DPS levels of damage but there's only one permitted of me at a time), that's just Blue DPS.

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If it gave me more buttons to press, or more to think about, then I'd accept that without complaint.

Right now we have more tools than you can shake a stick at to handle mitigation, and a dearth of things to actually DO in the instance. Even the menial chores of moving the boss are relegated to Ultimates, whereas in Savage the boss re-positions on its own most the time, or worse yet becomes untargetable.I sincerely doubt that SE, who has a vested interest in making things simpler, will make the 'burden' of tanking any more meaningful in the future.

I can however rely on them to -- once in a blue moon -- accidentally design a job that's exciting to play and has a lot of depth. If GNB has a sick-nasty new mechanic that's implemented weirdly enough that it has a tight rotation that does a bunch more damage I'll play it into the ground. Same for any other tank, if only to feel something.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Give tanks some genuine potential to cause wipes if they're not on point.
You still won't get everyone interested in the role, but at least you'll definitely find a niche of interested players.

Well, fine. But who are we going to con into playing tank, then?

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Rhetorical question? Since the answer is just a few sentences before... I actually am a player that would sort of fit that need. I am a soloist, at heart.. Always have been, always will be... I do not care in the slightest bit about things like my damage potential, or how much damage I deal. My only concerns are how durable I am, and how well I can survive... Sort of like a war of attrition, can I out-live my opponent?
While, when a soloist like me attempts to enter a social setting, and enter a party, and all of the sudden have other people around and have this thing called a "Role", well... Tank best fits me, since I only care about how durable I am and how well that I can survive, and may as well channel that attitude into the defense and protection of my temporary allies...

Tank in FFXIV? difficult to call it my preference, being a soloist, and FFXIV being extreme Anti-Soloist.. and more on subject, Tank durability is actually awful and relies too much on a Healer, but at least it is a lot more durable than the alternatives... if FFXIV Tanks needed to do Tank-things a lot more, along with DPSing, I would like playing as Tank, more than what I do at the moment... albeit.. less on subject, I would love it even more if FFXIV was not extreme Anti-Soloist, but.. eh. That is never going to happen.

and on the thread subject, shall we now return to debating the return of old Dark Arts to death?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why there's so much overlap between tanks and DPS is because the concept evolved from DPS. Your traditional Fighter/Warrior job in text-based multiuser dungeons was still fundamentally a damage dealer, except that they could use Rescue abilities to intercept attacks for squishier party members.

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That's just it, though. There was often more active tanking on those than what we have now.

Here on XIV, tanking doesn't include actively thwarting our enemy's offenses outside of the rare tether-grabbing mechanic; instead, we just slap the enemy at a 10x modifier and damn near everything that may be redirected is automatically redirected.

That's the problem. It's not a matter of what capacities we have, but literally what we are doing (or, in XIV's case, not doing).

Again, I'm not asking for tanks to have less throughput impact. I'm just asking for their input to be less passive.

Personally, I like when tanks' sustained combined throughput (in terms of healing spared, rather than going so far as to balance them around lives saved) isn't head and shoulders above the other roles because it makes any trade-offs available to a tank feel better situated, and the presence of such options allow for more involved undermechanics that in turn allow for more engaging tanking, healing, and damage-dealing alike. But that fine of balance is not essential so long as they're not pushing other roles out entirely.

But what is essential is that there be actual things to do. Actual things to time, to position, to prioritize, and for reasons beyond just pushing a bit more damage out per minute. "The Monster Hunter minigame" as you called it? Great. Awesome. Not the limit, by any means, but yes, let's make mitigation more active, knowledge more (literally) vital. Where attacks of opportunities can be utilized or created, perfect. But you should still feel like you're a playmaker, not merely matching buttons to incoming types so that an increasingly slow-to-change number can be a bit bigger.

I'd just caution, finally, that in the end, it is only about the actual fun of playing the role (e.g., tank) or playing around it (DPS, healers). No amount of increased risk will make holding a dead man's switch, in and of itself, any more exciting. It's still just holding down a button, even if everyone dies if you let go. Such can never be used in place of actual engaging playflow it ought to compound. It's just a topping, at best.

If you want to do solo content, RDM is far superior to any tank, as both of the PoTD and HoH solo world firsts demonstrated. Because if you want the nice things, then you just want to be a 'blue DPS'. I'm hoping Reaper has some degree of vampiric self-sustain so that it becomes the melee equivalent.

...my intent was to focus on what I would like in a not-solo situation, though... But if we must focus on the solo part, I would retort that I do not like Red Mage much, and would rather prefer that Tanks have more self-sustain / self-healing capability. If we had to debate solo, I would also retort that the PoTD and HoH is not my interest... I would want to solo all of the activities that require other people, Dungeons, Trials, Raids, Alliance Raids...
but let us not get into that debate. there is no point, and this is not the place for it, any way.

I can agree, though, that I would like it if Reaper has more self-healing stuff than just the weak Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's just it, though. There was often more active tanking on those than what we have now.

Here on XIV, tanking doesn't include actively thwarting our enemy's offenses outside of the rare tether-grabbing mechanic; instead, we just slap the enemy at a 10x modifier and damn near everything that may be redirected is automatically redirected.

That's the problem. It's not a matter of what capacities we have, but literally what we are doing (or, in XIV's case, not doing).

Again, I'm not asking for tanks to have less throughput impact. I'm just asking for their input to be less passive.

Personally, I like when tanks' sustained combined throughput (in terms of healing spared, rather than going so far as to balance them around lives saved) isn't head and shoulders above the other roles because it makes any trade-offs available to a tank feel better situated, and the presence of such options allow for more involved undermechanics that in turn allow for more engaging tanking, healing, and damage-dealing alike. But that fine of balance is not essential so long as they're not pushing other roles out entirely.

But what is essential is that there be actual things to do. Actual things to time, to position, to prioritize, and for reasons beyond just pushing a bit more damage out per minute. "The Monster Hunter minigame" as you called it? Great. Awesome. Not the limit, by any means, but yes, let's make mitigation more active, knowledge more (literally) vital. Where attacks of opportunities can be utilized or created, perfect. But you should still feel like you're a playmaker, not merely matching buttons to incoming types so that an increasingly slow-to-change number can be a bit bigger.

I'd just caution, finally, that in the end, it is only about the actual fun of playing the role (e.g., tank) or playing around it (DPS, healers). No amount of increased risk will make holding a dead man's switch, in and of itself, any more exciting. It's still just holding down a button, even if everyone dies if you let go. Such can never be used in place of actual engaging playflow it ought to compound. It's just a topping, at best.

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and I can agree with just about all of that...
It would be more interesting if combat mechanics in fight design had more things that demands the Tank to be more of a Tank.

also.. it is hypocritical of me, since I am a part of it, but.. we have gone quite off-topic, now... we should probably go back to the thread topic.

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Originally Posted by shao32

It will be really insulting if they are transforming DRK to be WAR so they can transform WAR in something else, i don't think they are so twisted minded to do such deporable thing but god lord if that happens at the end.

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Depends on if the poster boy curse continues. FFXIV has had a history of WoL main job for expansion having some glaring flaws.

-2.0 WAR couldn't survive extreme damage and tank busters like twintania's death sentence. This was fixed in 2.1.
-3.0 DRG had you lose nearly half your potency if you missed positionals and animation locking was very real.
-4.0 MNK had questionable design choices like Tornado kick removing all your GL stacks and sadly MNK won't be "fixed" till 6.0 but that's unsure. 4.0 SAM didn't suffer as bad since it was new job but it had its issues.
-5.0 DRK is a mixed bag. While they made the job more accessible to newer players, it is by far the tank with the most gutted skills with older players missing the identity and feel of older DRK but at least they finally got an aoe at lvl 72. They also gave it a flashy dot in the form of a pet aka, Living Shadow so that's fun right?

nawh, not fun at all. Dark Knight is boring and dull at every level... pre-BlackBlood gauge levels, in other words Lv61 and lower, are just even more boring and further dull... some of our skills are also schitt, Living Shadow is lame, and Stalwart Soul all the way up at Lv72 is awful.

I can not imagine how any Dark Knight player, even if they did start to play Dark Knight only after 5.0, and so know naught of the better versions,
could possibly like to play Dark Knight, with how Dark Knight is almost total trash, at the moment.
the original 3.x Dark Knight is even, for the most part, widely considered to have been the best version of Dark Knight.

and if that curse does continue, Paladin is about to take quite the hit...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want to do solo content, RDM is far superior to any tank, as both of the PoTD and HoH solo world firsts demonstrated. Because if you want the nice things, then you just want to be a 'blue DPS'. I'm hoping Reaper has some degree of vampiric self-sustain so that it becomes the melee equivalent.

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RDM isn't that great in HoH and is outclassed by MCH in PoTD these days, actually. Tanks are easily the best role for HoH and GNB in particular is catching up in PoTD. Tanks in general are the best role for solo content these days, outside of stuff you can just oneshot and speedrun through, in which case, ranged DPS are better.

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

...my intent was to focus on what I would like in a not-solo situation, though... But if we must focus on the solo part, I would retort that I do not like Red Mage much, and would rather prefer that Tanks have more self-sustain / self-healing capability. If we had to debate solo, I would also retort that the PoTD and HoH is not my interest... I would want to solo all of the activities that require other people, Dungeons, Trials, Raids, Alliance Raids...
but let us not get into that debate. there is no point, and this is not the place for it, any way..

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DD usually does usually require other people.

That's really only true after Shadowbringers 5.05 nerfed both sets of Deep Dungeons by giving everyone a boost to survivability and damage to make them doable by every job. It's actually amazing that not only was the world first solo on PoTD an expansion late on a DPS job that didn't exist at it's launch, but that tanks had to wait an additional expansion for nerfs before they managed a clear.

Damage potencies on tanks were too low prior to SHB for tanks to really do PoTD or HoH solo because there's so many monsters in both that kill you outright after a set amount of time passes. Since D-hit and Crit are at base values, food barely helps DPS, and so having more DPS skills is a dramatic increase to speed. The 60 minute time limit for floorsets is the only real reason that tanks could not clear prior. If they really wanted to make everything solo PoTD and HoH, they would up the time limit to the standard 90 minute dungeon limit.

Also they barely altered anything in 5.05. Just something in PoTD that sometimes caused incorrect values for ATP and HP. Which I never saw back then, anyway, and after 5.05 the overarching changes to potency that came with 5.0 is all that I feel. Right, like, the landscape changed from being basically, "RDM and really lucky other DPS/exploit using DPS/exploit users" to being MCH, Tanks, RDM, and any serious deep dungeon enthusiasts on just about anything, because DPS potencies are through the roof. MCH can literally one shot most monsters up until the 130s with Reassemble Drill.

Tanks provide a more stable run, having the tools to deal with surprise mimics in the late floors, and also not absolutely needing Steels for both the floor enemies and bosses. RDMs only weakness is it can't silence mimics. MCH requires potions, even with kiting; RDM does not. RDM deals the best with no abilities / no items debuff floors. Tanks, even GNB, are the most stressed for time out of the "best" jobs for deep dungeon solos.

A Warrior managed to succeed in soloing HoH pre-SHB.

But that was Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

If you want to appease the masses, keep it as is. The player base just wants to use a great sword with no effort, and the previous versions required effort, as surprising as it seemed (all you had to do was press buttons faster than normal). it's a shame we lost out on such a beautiful kit, really.

I remember how much this forum fought me for correctly calling them out on their hidden desire to play WAR with a glamored axe, because that's exactly what all the complaints were about. As soon as we went to WAR 2.0, the majority of the complaints stopped.

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I don't think we stopped because we were appeased by playing a warrior clone, personally just tired of trying to point out the obvious.

Dark arts spam of 4.x wasn't great => it was clunky in double weaves, we needed a plunge animation shortening, less dark arts effects on miscellaneous skills like dark mind and eventually did get these positive changes. We still need to address things like Blood weapon having a different treatment versus every other 10 second buff in the game, living dead is still a glaring issue. While things that felt like they finally functioned well (I forgot the 20% self heal that you could put on enemies back in SB) after finally getting addressed gets removed.

As a maker of many 4.x threads I personally wanted more interplay between skills. Like what warrior has, but more accurately what dark knight of 3.x had. Examples: Thrill + equilibrium; planned nascent flash around bursting with IR or infuriate, IR and onslaught and upheaval. I wanted a stronger lean in on things like speed and resource interplay, the counter attack feel of reprisal and low blows of 3.x. Really make me feel like a dark knight, wielding dark magic and sacrifice to deal damage. Bards play songs, its in the name, dancers dance, checks out, mch uses machines, I'm seeing a pattern. SMN summons to deal damage. Its not much to ask for a real feel of a dark knight through game play.

What we got was more homogenized and yes more warrior like technically, but without any of the synergy warrior had. If your feed back is to get a unique identity, and what you get is a knock off, would you keep trying to ask for adjustments?

My own speculation is along the same lines... "As soon as Dark Knight went to WAR 2.0, the majority of the complaints stopped."

is this because of satisfaction? I doubt it, a lot. I am far more willing to bet that a lot of people had simply "given up" on Dark Knight, and given up on the hope that Dark Knight could improve, after Dark Knight was ruined two expansions in a row.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Depends on if the poster boy curse continues. FFXIV has had a history of WoL main job for expansion having some glaring flaws.

-2.0 WAR couldn't survive extreme damage and tank busters like twintania's death sentence. This was fixed in 2.1.
-3.0 DRG had you lose nearly half your potency if you missed positionals and animation locking was very real.
-4.0 MNK had questionable design choices like Tornado kick removing all your GL stacks and sadly MNK won't be "fixed" till 6.0 but that's unsure. 4.0 SAM didn't suffer as bad since it was new job but it had its issues.
-5.0 DRK is a mixed bag. While they made the job more accessible to newer players, it is by far the tank with the most gutted skills with older players missing the identity and feel of older DRK but at least they finally got an aoe at lvl 72. They also gave it a flashy dot in the form of a pet aka, Living Shadow so that's fun right?

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The curse of the Derplander yeah, i would say biggest issue of DRG in 3.0 was the fang and claw and wheeling thrust rng proc to get one or the other was his biggest issue, was really annoying, Geirskull blooddragon consume was a bit to tight to my taste too, better now by a mile for sure the job is.

Idk, DRK use to have the best AOE gameplay in the tank role in both HW and specially on SB, now is so swallow and dull like the rest of the tanks and have it on lvl 72 just make the underleves feel even worse but yeah flashy Fray yuhuu.

Yeah DRK AoE was far superior in StB.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I don't think we stopped because we were appeased by playing a warrior clone, personally just tired of trying to point out the obvious.

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There's no engagement with the playerbase on these issues by either the dev team or the community team. In Stormblood, at least there was a bit of forum interaction that took place in that regard and some promises were made. Even the more recent Live Letter Q+A sessions seem to deliberately ignore even highly upvoted gameplay concerns from players in favor of safe fluff.

I don't think that they have the staff to actually manage the jobs that they have out, let alone the new ones. I'd expect them to just play it very safe and change very little. And at the end of the day, it's more than just DRK; tanking is neither valuable nor engaging. There's just too many problems here without an actual commitment from the team to expect to see anything other than failure. I hope that they manage to do something with healing, since they've vocally committed to that at least.

Let's just hope that Reaper turns out well.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's no engagement with the playerbase on these issues by either the dev team or the community team. In Stormblood, at least there was a bit of forum interaction that took place in that regard and some promises were made. Even the more recent Live Letter Q+A sessions seem to deliberately ignore even highly upvoted gameplay concerns from players in favor of safe fluff.

I don't think that they have the staff to actually manage the jobs that they have out, let alone the new ones. I'd expect them to just play it very safe and change very little. And at the end of the day, it's more than just DRK; tanking is neither valuable nor engaging. There's just too many problems here without an actual commitment from the team to expect to see anything other than failure. I hope that they manage to do something with healing, since they've vocally committed to that at least.

Let's just hope that Reaper turns out well.

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The day tanking becomes irrelevant and redundant is the day I will quit this game for good.

It's not hard to make tanking engaging at all. We're talking about a company that managed to actually create a functional experience out of the infamous 1.0 build. They can if they want to, but it seems losing a few players loyal to the concept of tanking is a risk worth taking if it means they can increase their playerbase and subscriptions. Back then when ARR released, SE was heavily dependant on their loyal fanbase to salvage what hope was left for FFXIV. Nowadays, they've gained a fortune and apparently don't care anymore, judging by the baffling lack of transparency on issues that keep persisting throughout all expansions.

Reaper just seems like a temporary band-aid to me. A tank main like me won't just be satisfied by playing an edgy job. If they think that's enough to keep me shoving money into their pockets; they are wrong.

All in all, if they keep going this route and I assume they will continue to homogenize tanking even further, they lost a loyal player that put up with these changes for 2.5 years. No point in giving them money if they don't even want to communicate with us. They got enough players that are seemingly happy with male Vieras and their little story than actual gameplay which is far more crucial and persists for far longer than temporary excitement and instant gratification.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Let's just hope that Reaper turns out well.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

Reaper just seems like a temporary band-aid to me.

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here is a thought that is going to make me livid, if it ends up beings the case...
Hot take: what looked like Reaper has a burst.. IS old Dark Arts, under a new name and void instead of darkness, and Reaper is a "fast" feeling sustained DPS damager, making it actually just the "band-aid fix" for Dark Knight... Reaper ends up being the literal replacement for Dark Knight, because Squeenix told the dev team to just create a new edgy darkness subclass, for all of us discontent Dark Knights to ditch Dark Knight for and switch over to, so that we stop complaining about Dark Knight.

that said, I will ditch Dark Knight for Reaper, if Dark Knight does not improve, and I bet that a lot of other Dark Knights will also ditch Dark Knight for Reaper, so bloody 72 hells...whether it was the intent of Squeenix or not, Reaper looks like it may be just the Dark Knight issues blow-off.

But think about what a rework could achieve if tanking was actually irrelevant and redundant.

Let's say that you had 17 jobs, of which 14 were DPS and 3 were healers. The boss follows a fixed choreographed dance while spam casting AoE attacks which you have to dodge/heal though, so no actual tanking is required. Of the 14 DPS jobs that you can pick from, 4 of them do significantly less damage than the other DPS, but twice per fight they have the exclusive privilege of participating in a special quicktime event to block a big attack from the boss.

Oh wait. We're playing that version already.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

But think about what a rework could achieve if tanking was actually irrelevant and redundant.

Let's say that you had 17 jobs, of which 14 were DPS and 3 were healers. The boss follows a fixed choreographed dance while spam casting AoE attacks which you have to dodge/heal though, so no actual tanking is required. Of the 14 DPS jobs that you can pick from, 4 of them do significantly less damage than the other DPS, but twice per fight they have the exclusive privilege of participating in a special quicktime event to block a big attack from the boss.

Oh wait. We're playing that version already.

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Next up, they will remove the Tank stance and simplify tanking to the lowest common denominator. I can see it already.

Their mistake was taking enmity out of the equasion without finding a suitable replacement. Now they created a void. How will they intend to fill it? Not by making tanking even more irrelevant than it currently is. I was bothered by the changes in 5.0 alot, but I can't possibly imagine they will remove even more out of what is left anyhow. I blame the playerbase as well, their reaction towards these changes was non-existant but when it's a lack of hairstyles for a race or a missing gender they flip the tables upside and down. In any case, I'm not a DPS player so I most likely will just end up leaving but that's fine. I got my enjoyment out of this game before 5.0 when tanks were more fun to play, in my opinion.

It is... Quite the enigma. FFXIV's Combat gameplay only ever becomes worse, and more of boring, dull, lousy, lower quality, and simple, to the point of not even being a RPG any longer, and just mere glorified action; and yet Squeenix continues to succeed in their goal of "more players"...
I wonder how the dev team feels about this, forced by Squeenix to do this to their game.

on a different scale, the Old Dark Arts returns conundrum is bothering me again...
say that Dark Knight's damage potential is as good as the other tanks, but then old Dark Arts had some effects to increase the potency of attacks, so this would cause a modern Dark Knight with old Dark Arts, to out-damage any other Tank, unto which either Dark Arts would be nerfed and ruin the point, or Dark Knight's damage would be nerfed; which would make the Dark Knight's damage reliant on Dark Arts, to be equal to other Tanks, and none of us Dark Knights want old Dark Arts to come back as a Liability...
and then the irony of this concern, if we consider the fact that the current "Dark Arts".. that comes from The Blackest Night, and in effect The Blackest Night itself, IS a liability to our damage potential, due to the stupid design of "Broken shield = damage gain".

one common agreement is that the problem-solve would be: Dark Arts does not affect damage potential, but I am not certain how to do this, since if Dark Arts has effects related to MP recovery and management, or our other resource(s), that would affect the damage potential of the Dark Knight... As such, what would be a "safe" effect for old Dark Arts? is the answer defensive and HP recovery effects only?
but then that bother-some argument of "but spending MP on Dark Arts would be a damage loss, no matter what" comes into play, and the effects of Dark Arts gets regarded as: "how much of a damage loss?" ...What would be the within reason problem solve to this?, I have been thinking to myself...and the answer came to me, while reading the ongoing subject in here, about the issue with Tank gameplay.

there is, simply, a fundamental serious problem with Tanks. why is damage potential and DPS, or the loss of, even a concern.. for TANKS?
there is a fundamental design flaw in this game, and that is: "DPS is more important than aught else, and only damage matters"; Tanks are just tankish DPS, not true tanks, which ruins any attempt at all to design the Tanks as "Tanks", including our Dark Arts problem, because the Tanks need to be tankish damagers, not real Tanks.
every design idea that I think up for Dark Arts, hits this aggravating wall of disapproval, but other players are irritatingly correct, in the sense of any idea has one issue or another with it, because of this aggravating fundamental battle/fights combat design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

there is, simply, a fundamental serious problem with Tanks. why is damage potential and DPS, or the loss of, even a concern.. for TANKS?
there is a fundamental design flaw in this game, and that is: "DPS is more important than aught else, and only damage matters"; Tanks are just tankish DPS, not true tanks, which ruins any attempt at all to design the Tanks as "Tanks", including our Dark Arts problem, because the Tanks need to be tankish damagers, not real Tanks.
every design idea that I think up for Dark Arts, hits this aggravating wall of disapproval, but other players are irritatingly correct, in the sense of any idea has one issue or another with it, because of this aggravating fundamental battle/fights combat design flaw.

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I've always been skeptical of the idea of making tanks less about DPS and more about tanking because, at some point, you can optimize everything but damage out of existence in all but the most difficult of content- and even then, sometimes you can. It happened with enmity, and it still happens with healing and gearing. It wouldn't be much of an improvement if, by the time a fight was mostly mapped out and optimized, tanks were still stuck with a boring and unsatisfying rotation (inb4 "make fights more random").

We really don't need perfect or even great solutions that'll tie everything up in a neat little knot, either. I'd personally be completely satisfied if tanks were given more complex and interesting rotations. We're going to bitch and whine no matter what they do anyways because of how consistently the dev team comes just short of getting it right when it comes to job design.

I disagree with this artificial dichotomy between 'dps' and 'tanking'. Doing damage is part of tanking. Positioning and moving bosses is part of tanking. Mitigation is part of tanking. Right now, all of these areas are lacking. You don't have to make tanks 'less about dps' to fix the rest of them. Just fix them all.