Monk Rework just brought us back to 2.0 MNK but with no GL.

I will never for the life of me understand the weird infatuation with Greased Lightning. It was an unfun, clunky mechanic that forced a build up to a degree no other job had to deal with and then a maintain that was tedious at the best of times and impossible at the worst. It was never monks 'identity', it was a blockade to monks identity, which is a flurry of weaker attacks as opposed to Dragoons slower, heavier hitting ones. Both Dragoon and Samurai's buildups are for fairly low additions to DPS and or speed while also being an important part of their rotations, while monks encompassed a far larger portion of their damage and speed increase while either requiring special means or simply more time to reach max stacks an in exchange they did similar DPS for unarguable more buildup and maintain. Having Twin Snakes be the only personal maintain puts them far more in line with other DPS classes while not sacrificing their actual identity, speed.

With Greased Lightning as a mechanic gone this allows them to focus more on the core of the job and move away from having to go to such great lengths to maintain a single buff. That being said, the jury is out on whether or not they'll be able to capitalize on this or not. This is the team that went into Shadowbringers with Summoners in the shape they were in. But flipside, its also the team that managed to fix summoners in a fairly satisfying fashion before all was said and done so...we'll see. I'm expecting fairly large changes for both jobs in the next expansion either way.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

This was a joke

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It's a bad joke and a terrible comparison to make, you even know that it's bad but you keep digging that hole. Nice.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

It's a forum...not everything in here is substantial. Just a way to blow off steam and speak our opinions. I take EVERYTHING in here with a grain of salt. I ignore most (not all) comments designed to elicit an reflex of emotional reaction.

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So would you say that your opinion is that being asked to move your videogame catgirl from one side of a boss to another shares a striking similarity to verbally abusing your partner for accidentally deleting a recording off the DVR? I'm genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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Of course noone will miss positionals on NIN, because you can stay like 99% of the time behind the boss already. But the whole kit of NIN works slightly different and you´ve the ninjutsu to take care about. Monk has nothing anymore to care about but positionals and those are fun to play.
What do you need to take care about on MCH, DNC or RDM? Pressing a buff here and there because of overheat? Dancing because the buff is gone? Going for the melee combo because you got enough mana? Those are only some buttons you press when limit X is reached or buff Y is gone. Do you really call that fun or engaging? If yes, then it shows where you´re coming from. It´s something you´ve to take care about, but it´s not hard to take care about and not hard to play.

There is a big gap between "somehing was made simpler" or "something is so simple, that it´s pretty much dumb".
Yes, warrior is easy to play as any tank is since ShB changes. Stormeye was more of an overall damage buff than QoL. Nascent got dumb´d down and the most probably don´t even use it to take care for others anymore. I call that a step back in game design. Half of the players probably don´t even know that they can assist the MT with it or to safe the unlucky DPS from the dead. It only caters solo play.

Tbh, what you write down let me highly doubt that you´re a decent player. You want to rely on your QoL things. "Oh yeah i can spam my AOE in 10 mobs at once, hehe." I see a lot of such guys here and there in dungeons or bozja dieing at the first boss mechanic.
It´s okay for me. The game is for everyone. But the game has more than enough casual content and classes. QoL is one thing if it´s needed, but the most stuff IS NOT. Playermade issues because you don´t want to improve, because you want to rely on "123 gimme loot please!". It´s annoying. There are other players too, who are ready to read the skills, to improve themself and to play something challenging.

And about "real changes". Those are not needed every year. New content and boss mechanics make the difference. If you want to get ride of positionals on monk, i want to see positionals on any physical range and range based damage on magical ones. Would you enjoy such real changes? I don´t think so.
Classes in MMO´s should always fit their major role and the subclasses should have different playstyles. I´ve mentioned it above, DRK vs WAR is the best example. They´re nearly exact the same class in the core. The only real difference is that the DRK has more magical defs and the WAR life depended / heal ones. This is a lazy design and it´s not even a thing to say "FF14 has 4 tank classes to enjoy!". It´s a lie. Maybe a thing on paper, but gameplay-wise a lie.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I fail to see how your static on a boss, when there are numerous mechanics that get in the way. In the case of monk (which WAS unique with GL uptime) had to be engaged with the boss to generate more GL. Compound this with positional's, AOE, mechanics, with GL? GL was the one thing that needed to be abolished to not change EVERYTHING else for one job. That's the past now. Look towards the future.

Your argument is based on Monk HAS to move around like a moron to be unique. Pretty loose argument. That's like saying Paladin has to jump twice to block. Silly.

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Imagine lots of poeple are able to play those numerous mechanics AND positionals and still do their job as a dps. Meanwhile others, who don´t have to care about anything than mechanics, still asking for a phys. range buff and die poorly in an avoidable AOE.
Your logic fails, because more than enough players proofed that any content was doable as monk and still is. Positionals were never an issue as much as GL wasn´t especially with the maintaining skills we had in ShB. It´s up to players like you, who wants to change a class completely, because you want to play that "because it looks cool" or for whatever reason. It´s not like FF14 has only 1 class you rely on. But that´s gonna happen when SE goes straight up that why of dumping down any class to a pointless 123 rotation with off gcd´s you just press for more damage, not because they bring anything to the class, the party or whatever. They´re there, you press them, that´s all.

Monks biggest core aspect was always about positionals and it´s engaging to play and to adjust here and there to certain boss mechanics. Nothing could be more boring than staying at the boss "123,456, oh i have to move to marker A, 123,456."
Positionals are not even so hard to play once you got used to them and the overall primitive boss design from SE does a lot to it. Next to some bad uptime mechanics, it follows a strict pattern you can get used to aswell and it´s pretty much the same on any bigger boss: AOE/TB -> mechanic 1 -> AOE/TB -> mechanic 2 -> AOE -> mechanic 3 -> AOE into phase 2 -> mechanic 4 (or 1) -> AOE -> mechanic 5 -> AOE into phase 3 -> advanced phase 1 mechanics....etc....

It´s always the same on any savage boss and anyone can get used to it with any class. And there we´ve some easy to play chars with less damage (phys. range) and medi or more challenging classes with a higher damage output where you actually have to care about something.
Again, if you cut this or that again and again, SE should get ride of any class and give the player 5 skills on the hand to play with and then all seems fine right? No it´s not. It´s no fun to have such limited variety and no different playstyles. Pressing some nonamed buttons in a highlighted combo is no fun. If that is what you call fun, then you should stuck in dungeons, because you don´t need any form of skill or knowledge to complete them.

All that casualization needs to stop! No serious endgame player wants that. And for everything else, you can be double left handed and ignoring timings or positionals anyway. Enjoy that stuff and stop trying to destroy the fun of others.

Oh and btw action MMO´s are the new ones and a lot of ppl enjoy to dodge and block by themself in the right moment. Doesn´t sound silly to me to jump twice so. ;)

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I will never for the life of me understand the weird infatuation with Greased Lightning. It was an unfun, clunky mechanic that forced a build up to a degree no other job had to deal with and then a maintain that was tedious at the best of times and impossible at the worst. It was never monks 'identity', it was a blockade to monks identity, which is a flurry of weaker attacks as opposed to Dragoons slower, heavier hitting ones. Both Dragoon and Samurai's buildups are for fairly low additions to DPS and or speed while also being an important part of their rotations, while monks encompassed a far larger portion of their damage and speed increase while either requiring special means or simply more time to reach max stacks an in exchange they did similar DPS for unarguable more buildup and maintain. Having Twin Snakes be the only personal maintain puts them far more in line with other DPS classes while not sacrificing their actual identity, speed.

With Greased Lightning as a mechanic gone this allows them to focus more on the core of the job and move away from having to go to such great lengths to maintain a single buff. That being said, the jury is out on whether or not they'll be able to capitalize on this or not. This is the team that went into Shadowbringers with Summoners in the shape they were in. But flipside, its also the team that managed to fix summoners in a fairly satisfying fashion before all was said and done so...we'll see. I'm expecting fairly large changes for both jobs in the next expansion either way.

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This person get's it

Given the lack of context in the response I'm not going to quote the above. I can't simply read the above without a sense of "Get GUD" in the subtext.

That being said: Monk for me was never about making it simple or dumb to play. It was about removing obstacles in place to put in place BETTER ones.

"GL was an obstacle....now it's gone. I enjoy the class now. Way more fun."

"Positionals are an obstacle...a crappy "job playstyle"....let's find a better one shall we."

"Oh wait? There are people crying about how positionals make monk what it is!"

"Is that so?... what would you say if we added something better then positionals and added real depth other then just...rotate to the back...rotate to the side?"

Sign me the F up!


No your argument is has no logic, your argument keeps the class in the mud, your argument completely undermines evolution of a class which has been subjugated to COUNTLESS arguments that the job NEEDS improvement.

If you truly believe positionals should stay over a new BETTER alternative...you are truly never going to be happy with any job changing. Cry about WAR all you want....those days are over. But I would emphasis you look towards what it will be in 6.0 rather then miss the good old days. All tanks are simple and clean to play now, and at the end of the day they do the job of what is asked of them. If you want your Warrior to blast more damage then a BLM? In your words...go play BLM.

I hate that comment... "Ugh you hate playing positionals on monk?.... Go PlAy McH oR BaRd YoU FiLtHy CaSuAl!" That is such a dumb argument, and that's not to make me a better player, or to help me get through savage/extreme/ultimate. Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player". WOW! I only WISH I could be JUST like you. *sarcasm*

Newsflash: It's a game and I don't get payed to be the best and I'm ok with that. However, I do pay a monthly sub to expect a good experience which we do get. Why should this not extend to player feedback to the devs. Crying out loud ENEGRY DRAIN was ADDED back in for scholars! I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could get GL added back as well. I dare you! Won't see me stopping you! Give it your best shot!

Better yet let's put stance dancing back in for tanks! Let's see how the community reacts to this, HELL better put Diversion back in as well to counter the agro! Might as well cancel the expansion and delete Shadowbringers and just continue with Stormblood. The top tier players have spoken and Stormblood is the stage they want to stay at.

In closing: I will never give up my campaign to make Monk the most fun class to play, removing GL was the first step. And I will be waiting with abated breath on your retort...this should be good. *more sarcasm*

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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It´s not about git gud, it´s about "leaving the core of a class as it is".

I´ve told you how "unique" classes are, proof me wrong if you want. What you want to force is to make monks or melees overall even more a no-brainer. You can´t even come with a great idea, how SE could bring more depth to the class. And guess what? It´s impossible. Positionals and skill effects which rely on them are 1000 times better than any "press a button when you reach limit X" mechanics you´ve on nearly any class in this game. Just because a class fits its role, doesn´t mean it´s fun to play if you just have 3 buttons to care about.

We all pay our sub, millions of players do and all enjoy different playstyles or content. It´s just selfish to come up like "please change the whole class, because i like to play it without this or that.", when thousands of other players enjoy it as it is and all match together in some way.
Think whatever you want, but it´s not dumb to say "play an easier class" or "then ignore positionals". You don´t need them for any content but savage or ultimate. It´s a minimum of a 10% damage loss if you stuck behind the boss. If you can´t live with that damage loss, then go play something else. FF14 offers enough classes to play and to enjoy. Again, there is no need to destroy the fun for others in exchange of another "1 click mechanic".

I won´t even talk about the other nonsense and sarcasm stuff you´ve written down there. You´ve nothing to say then "I want...easy please... because i don´t want to play it as it is right now!". Your knowledge, ideas, gamesense and arguments lack hard.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Monk's postionals are not what make it unique. They are what hold it back. Dancing around the boss/mob like a moron to play optimally isn't fun to me. There are times when I just become so lazy that I don't even move for positionals just out of protest. True north and RoE are nice, but MAN do I miss that 30 secs from RoE, albeit clunky to activate by getting hit.

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If you don't like positional attacks, then monk is not the job for you. Full stop. Every single-target move has a requirement, which is unlike any other job in the game. They're not hard to master, and if you're trying to say that they hold the job back, that's an excuse for laziness or stubbornness to not play the job correctly. Every single melee job, literally every one, has positional requirements. There's zero reason to delete that from monk. Not to mention that with between True North and now Riddle of Earth not requiring you to take damage to nullify positional requirements, there is enough in the kit to adjust when the situation calls for it.

Monk does need help to build back into its identity for sure, but that's because so much of what made monk monk was the urgency and attention you had to pay to maintaining your greased lightning buff. They changed that to a passive trait, but didn't replace it with anything... yet. So we have to wait and see what happens in 6.0 to what kind of identity the job gets.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I hate the positional playstyle of MNK, but I love the fun gameplay of punching and kicking. If that makes sense?

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Nope, no it doesn't.

Honest question: do you actually like MNK gameplay? Do you really?
You apparently hated Greased Lightning and now that it's been removed you say you hate positionals, which are about the last thing that sets MNK apart from the other melees - next to the slightly more dynamic combo system, but I don't see you singing praises to that mechanic anywhere either. Instead you say you love the "gameplay of punching and kicking" but that's not actually gameplay - it's aesthetic. You could slap MNK animations on literally any other melee job in the game and you'd have "a punching and kicking job".

The FFXIV community imo has a huge problem of people who like certain aesthetics but dislike the playstyles tied to them, who feel entitled to demand a job be completely flipped on its head just so they can play with the pretty animations for a bit, while completely shitting on the people who actually enjoyed the job's gameplay and are left with nothing as a result. Sadly SE, in their misguided pursuit to appease everyone at once instead of properly catering to niches, keeps listening to those players and the multitude of jobs the game offers are gradually turning into little more than just cosmetic options.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player".

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I mean, they aren't wrong. If you hate positionals to the point where you're ignoring them entirely, you're probably not good at Monk compared to someone who is actually engaging with the mechanics and outperforming you. This is wild to me because before this patch you could set yourself up to have a solid minute in any given fight ignoring that aspect of the job.

If the problem you have is that people are better than you at the job because they are doing what it asks of them, the problem isn't with the job, and the job certainly didn't abuse those players into moving their character an arbitrary distance around the boss to do so, either.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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They couldve made GL more accessible,not a frigging trait.

They could've given GL more of a mechanic, they instead trait it because they can't fix coding to not screw a mnk over as well as account for people who can't use their kit to upkeep it.

All mnk has at this point is Chakra AKA a glorified tank job gauge. All it has is positional and the stupid fist stances.

I dont get why dumbing down is the answer to everything.

Nothing was wrong with tank stances. They just needed to make them an actual part of tank gameplay(like og WAR Deliverance/Defiance . Wanna play safe? Heres def for offense tradeoff. Yes, not optimal but still better than "me press button me unnga bunga aggro" in ShB. Yeah, Grit and ShO sucked, but they should've been improved upon.

Also on the diversion thing, THIS IS A TEAM GAME. god forbid you ask the dps to press a button and stall aggro. They couldve just beefed up aggro generation for the tanks so they don't need to heavily rely on it, but if a tank established a good lead and you can't just do your part to help in aggro generation, that's on you.

Lastly. Fun is subjective. What someone found fun another may have hated.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

No your argument is has no logic, your argument keeps the class in the mud, your argument completely undermines evolution of a class which has been subjugated to COUNTLESS arguments that the job NEEDS improvement.

If you truly believe positionals should stay over a new BETTER alternative...you are truly never going to be happy with any job changing. Cry about WAR all you want....those days are over. But I would emphasis you look towards what it will be in 6.0 rather then miss the good old days. All tanks are simple and clean to play now, and at the end of the day they do the job of what is asked of them. If you want your Warrior to blast more damage then a BLM? In your words...go play BLM.

I hate that comment... "Ugh you hate playing positionals on monk?.... Go PlAy McH oR BaRd YoU FiLtHy CaSuAl!" That is such a dumb argument, and that's not to make me a better player, or to help me get through savage/extreme/ultimate. Your simply telling me what to do, and your only answer is "Your not a decent player". WOW! I only WISH I could be JUST like you. *sarcasm*

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I mean, you're arguing removing some of the job's flavour and playstyle. So I can understand the argument for "if its playstyle isn't for you, play a job that is" but I wouldn't throw "filthy casual" into that, especially as I am not of the mind your preference makes you a filthy casual, nor are BRD or MCH players. Speaking as a former SCH main who had their job's playstyle and identity ruined by simplification, I always figured if people wanted a job with bigger heals and a simpler DPS rotation they'd play WHM and let me enjoy my SCH. I can also speak as somebody who mainly tanked DRK, I always felt if people didn't like how technical it felt they'd play WAR, but now DRK plays like WAR. I just don't get why when a job's been designed a certain way people come along say "I don't like that" and expect it to be changed when it's not to their taste. I'd get it if they change something you liked about the job or if something was broken and doesn't work well. But positionals aren't broken and they've been here since day one. Especially if people like it. I always though the advantage of having multiple jobs fill a role was to appeal to different playstyles. There are jobs that rely much less on positionals as part of their playstyles and some that have none at all.

I'm sure other MNK's don't want the same treatment if they like some of its flavour.


Positionals are a part of how MNK is played and I would argue a part of their identity. The reason I say a part of their identity is because they're a martial arts based job and as a former martial artist I would argue that it represents that positioning aids its martial arts feel in a game mechanics sort of way.

This is because positioning can be very important in martial arts in order to open up vantage points, especially if you flow into them, especially in Karate. I was always taught to make as much use of my position as I can.

During spars I would not just strike head on, but try to position myself to my opponent's side because I can exploit an opening there (normally the ribs of soft tissue below the ribs, or as a sweep, especially if they've sifted their weight to their back leg) or even to the back of my opponent because there is an opening there, we can mean strikes to the back, or to the back of the knee or even an easier throw. For example if somebody comes at me with a kick, my block could have me move into the flank & counter. If they lunge punch I might deflect and step through their stance onto their rear side and counter. Or I could be doing the lunge punch to cut through their stance using the lunge punch as a distraction where I then aim to get them on the back on a turn.

And in martial arts there is a lot of movement in where you position yourself relative to your opponent.
I appreciate the emphasis on stance shifting on moves, which is another mechanic that feels martial artsy.

For all the flaws with MNK, one thing I have appreciated about its design is how it gamifies martial arts into an MMO playstyle. They of course, can't get an accurate representation in this style of game, but it does feel like they've designed certain MNK mechanics to emulate the feel. So I can definitely see the argument for positionals remaining a part of MNK's identity. I would also argue NIN should have kept its back stab.

I'm honestly a bitt confused after reading the patch notes... GL is now.. A trait? lol. What are we then, a DRG that lost their spear?

I haven't touched the job yet in-game, but it seems super boring now. It was fun having to keep up the stacks.. It gave excitement to the class
that you could only get in combat.. And that excitement piled on top of the emotional rollercoaster that raids offered.

And now? No GL, no worries, no excitement, no build up, no difficulty.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Let´s face it, ppl complain about everything everywhere or want this or that changed, not only on Monk. Samurai for example is probably the most broken class in FF14. The damage is insane even if you doesn´t play that well. The whole kit has everything you could imagine on a melee class to keep up 100% uptime easily without a real damage loss. You can even adjust your rotation if its needed. But still ppl complain about this or that because "it´s not perfectly timed", whatever.

You´re obviously fine with the new Monk, but what do you think will happen with 6.0? What is in the need to change when you can play 123 and spam off gcd´s? Away from the useless abilities and being soulless?! Whatever will happen, ppl will probably complain about that. And tbh, i can´t imagine something real is gonna happen, because it would´ve happen already. 1-2 more off gcd´s? God please no... The bar is already filled and spamming some buttons on cd is no fun.

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I wouldn't say I'm fine with it, but frankly I don't think GL being gone actually impacts Monk in terms of how you play the job all that much outside of no longer having to spam Form Shift and getting screwed on down time at least as far as going from 5.3 to 5.4 goes. The heart of GL in ARR/HW was that it required aggressive play in order to keep your stacks. However the death knell for that wasn't making GL a trait, it actually came in 5.05 with Formshift allowing you to refresh it with minimal nonsense, and frankly it was necessary because the way they designed fights wasn't conducive to Riddle of Earth and Anatman. If I'd had to do Limit Cuts+Super Hawk Blaster transition or Wormhole Formation without Formshift refreshing I straight up would have switched to Samurai to keep my blood pressure down instead of clearing TEA on Monk. Like most I don't think they needed to remove GL and turn it into a trait either. It just needed a non-stupid means of rebuilding it that didn't require a trade off, be it standing around for a GCD or trading what was accidentally made into one of our heaviest damage cooldowns to get back to full, and for Tornado Kick to have a different effect than dumping stacks.

The devs didn't do that, but in terms of how it informs gameplay removing GL and giving us a skill to regain GL was fundamentally the same since upkeep was already brainless. It wasn't without an advantage either, because with GL just being a trait they aren't able to design more stupid upkeep skills for it which will force them to do something else.

I don't know what the devs will do going into 6.0, as I'm not them. I know what I'd like to see, which is for Chakra to be reworked so it isn't RNG based at all and with more skills that actually use it and overhead. If it isn't completely changed like that, it should at the very least be changed so that the design of Chakra is changed so that the RNG is actually deliberate instead of just tacked onto Meditate. It also needs another mechanic on it, full stop, and it would have needed one if GL hadn't become a trait. It just needs it now more so than ever with GL having become one. The reason Kenki/Ninki work on Samurai and Ninja is because it's one layer of complexity on top of Iaijutsu and Ninjutsu, systems that are well fleshed out in their own right. On their own they aren't enough to support a job without it being incredibly brain dead, and Chakra either as RNG or as a consistently building resource which is their equivalent, and by extension it isn't enough to support Monk either. I'd be all for Monk getting a Sabin/Zell like system where we enter a Blitz State and execute three weaponskills corresponding to a certain sequence of Opo-Opo/Raptor/Coeurl form which finishes the sequence with Suplex/Dolphin Blow/something similar. The most important thing though is that Monk doesn't stay like it currently is and gets something beyond just chakra, because Monk with only Chakra is quickly becoming an intersection of both boring and miserable to play.

As for other things, I want them to kill the fist stances as they exist because there's no reason they should have gotten past Stormblood's action cull as a series of Three Stances of which you only ever use one. They should reconsider Riddle of Earth and make it a flat 20 seconds with no charges (and also change the animation to what played when it got hit because that was hot). Old Riddle of Earth was superior, but it was almost too much, Monk is the positional job and being able to ignore them for up to half the fight at a whim was too much, but 6 seconds is way too short, especially with how busy the job is. On the other hand if they keep it as a 6 second effect, Monk should gain a new counter attached to it, Monk is the OG counter job going back to FFIII and while Featherfoot/Haymaker was a bad joke, that doesn't mean that the concept should be abandoned on the job. Monk also needs a decent mobility kit instead of two Shoulder Tackles that you're incentivized to weave into your burst window and Six Sided Star, a teleport or a dash would be a godsend. It needs some sort of ranged attack at low levels is needed for spot pulling in Palace of the Dead. Anatman is an obvious sore spot that I wouldn't be surprised to see get axed completely considering how poorly it was conceived on literally every level. I'd also say that Leaden Fist needs to go because it was as guilty as Monk's kit falling to pieces around itself as Anatman. There's probably more that could be done or is needed, but that's the gist of it.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

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Thx for the long answer. Just about your wishes:

I still think that Chakra is fine as it is. It´s not that hard RNG anymore. Of course it´s annoying when a crit or bootshine goes into nowhere, but the damage loss is negatable. I don´t want to see a "safezone" like kenki has for its skills and i don´t want to see more skills used with it. Of course it can still procc at any time and in bad situations, but it´s still better than having nonamed static cd´s you press every 30/45s, just because of reasons.
But there are some situations where it hurts hard, e.g. E11s when the boss disappears and you sit on 3/4 points left. That´s really sad since you lose pretty lose alot of points in such downtimes. It would be cool if they go the other way, no safezone, but you can unleash the attack with a damage loss.

The 30s RoE was superior yes, but pretty much needed in this or that mechanic aka E8s. 20s with the same cooldown could be too less or some mechanics and you could still spam it every minute. 30s and 3min cooldown or something would´ve been great to play around mechanics like ilya, the current diamond dust or whatever without button smashing and without being that broken.

I´m still a fan of combinding the stances in some way too. I liked the way GL worked with fist of fire into fists of wind with the same damage but more movement speed. It could be like you start in fist of fire. Once you´ve done requirement X you can activate a 2nd stance of your choice permanently. If you reached that requirement again, you can activate the last one for 15s. In my preference i would´ve more damage, more movement speed and FoE as def then. They could even combine them for new skills you can only use in different fist combinations.

What i really don´t want to see is a ranged attack. It doesn´t fit the class tbh. SSS is a great skill and fits the class 100% in such escape situations. But i would highly prefer overall more movement speed from FoW than that short boost you get from SSS.

Dashes should be reworked on any class. It doesn´t make sense that they get abused for more dps in the burst windows. Just look at dragoon who turns around to do a backjump to the boss, because the regular skills are needed for the damage. I don´t get why they aren´t there just to be there with X cooldown as gapclosers. Of course you can still save one stack or enough kenki to make use of them at any time, but it´s not a great design.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

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God bless you SpeckledBurd, you always know how to sum up everything wrong with Monk and suggest good ideas. 6s RoE feels like a kick in the teeth with fights now and while yeah 30s probably was too much, it did help get us through more intensive parts of fights where going for positionals was out of the question and even having that 30s, you still had to manage TN usage correctly too to get the most out of it all. 20s feels like a fair trade though. I want to have faith that 6.0 will finally be a turning point but it's hard to stay positive at this point. Props to you for continuing to play Monk and not wavering.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

I'm honestly a bitt confused after reading the patch notes... GL is now.. A trait? lol. What are we then, a DRG that lost their spear?

I haven't touched the job yet in-game, but it seems super boring now. It was fun having to keep up the stacks.. It gave excitement to the class
that you could only get in combat.. And that excitement piled on top of the emotional rollercoaster that raids offered.

And now? No GL, no worries, no excitement, no build up, no difficulty.

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Nope, Dragoon actually has moves to weave into their combo and has to watch their blood of the dragon gauge. Monk is now the most empty DPS job in the game.

i was fine with formless fist and Perfect balance being stacks, no GL is overkill and Tornando Kick is ....a anomoly love the animation but detest random GCD but TK is a ogcd ...so maybe thats for the best? My real beef now is Twin Snakes being too tight. Perhaps Perfect balance can reset twin and demo? would make it less of a hassel then proceed to add whatver in 6.0

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Originally Posted by Jirah

i was fine with formless fist and Perfect balance being stacks, no GL is overkill and Tornando Kick is ....a anomoly love the animation but detest random GCD but TK is a ogcd ...so maybe thats for the best? My real beef now is Twin Snakes being too tight. Perhaps Perfect balance can reset twin and demo? would make it less of a hassel then proceed to add whatver in 6.0

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Changing TS in the favor if PB would last in double true monk, and that´s what SE obviously don´t want to see, otherwise things would be like they was before the rework. I liked it so far, but i don´t want to see TS increased or resetted by another skill you can put in your rotation. Monk is fast and it´s pretty much the last thing to care about in your rotation. Demo is perfectly timed now. To extend the durations, in whatever way you wish, would make the class even more boring to play. I don´t want a SAM 2.0 with big timers and easy adjustments for everything. I want something fun and challenging, even if it hurts hard when i missplay. I´ll remember that to improve.
Monks relation to combos, combined with positionals, fast gameplay and low timers matches great together. The buff on 2 gcd´s you miss every 90s is nothing compared to the damage you get from PB anyway. The job just needs more depth again and more stuff to care about. I would even like to see a lower base damage, but higher potency on positionals. The current damage loss of min. 10%, when you stay 24/7 behind the boss, is enough to clear E9-11s (E12s not sure) and this is ridiculous when we keep the core design of the job in mind.

The only thing about GL I want back is the visual effect.

I actually like the new monk. It feels clean and has a focus on being fast. As for improvements, Fist of Wind should be a passive: We have to land way more positional attacks than anyone else, and mob size + mob movement affects that a ton. Fists of fire I'm going to argue should stay, as I'd much rather be making choices about stances than have another damage cooldown to throw into a rotation. We eventually get 20% haste, so that means we have 20% less time to consider our options in between attacks on top of positional requirements. So I definitely do not want more buttons to consider. When things get hectic, I sometimes have to check if I have leaden fists up or not because of how fast things are going relative to all the stuff I have to keep track of.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

... Fists of fire I'm going to argue should stay, as I'd much rather be making choices about stances than have another damage cooldown to throw into a rotation.

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What choice? It's FoF 99.99999% of the time, the other small % is using FoE for damage mitigation for the lols when you can't hit anything anyway. Just like with Ninja's venoms they should remove it and apply the damage boost across the job.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

We eventually get 20% haste, so that means we have 20% less time to consider our options in between attacks on top of positional requirements. So I definitely do not want more buttons to consider. When things get hectic, I sometimes have to check if I have leaden fists up or not because of how fast things are going relative to all the stuff I have to keep track of.

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You should not be thinking what your next GCD is on the GCD you are about to use it. You need to plan ahead. When you use Snap Punch, you should know whether your next coeurl will be Snap Punch or Demolish. You should be able to keep track of your Twin Snakes and Leaden Fist in the same way. This then goes onto knowing boss mechanics and what they do. You know they are going to turn for a mechanic, prepare in advance by positioning yourself early, or getting ready to True North/Riddle of Earth.

You might think this is alot, however the same rule applies to all melee jobs and to an extent the ranged as well. You need to think ahead and plan what your actions are going to be ahead of time so you can properly prepare yourself. This is what differentiates a good player from a great player.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

What choice? It's FoF 99.99999% of the time, the other small % is using FoE for damage mitigation for the lols when you can't hit anything anyway. Just like with Ninja's venoms they should remove it and apply the damage boost across the job.



You should not be thinking what your next GCD is on the GCD you are about to use it. You need to plan ahead. When you use Snap Punch, you should know whether your next coeurl will be Snap Punch or Demolish. You should be able to keep track of your Twin Snakes and Leaden Fist in the same way. This then goes onto knowing boss mechanics and what they do. You know they are going to turn for a mechanic, prepare in advance by positioning yourself early, or getting ready to True North/Riddle of Earth.

You might think this is alot, however the same rule applies to all melee jobs and to an extent the ranged as well. You need to think ahead and plan what your actions are going to be ahead of time so you can properly prepare yourself. This is what differentiates a good player from a great player.

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I can play the monk just fine, thank you. This game has a library of three expansions worth of content on top of the base game. Asking someone to memorize all of the content to be optimal is silly.

Stances aren't a choice that you make.
It's fire, and if you want to be fancy you can swap stances but I honestly never see anyone even do this.

I agree that Fist of Wind should be a passive tho and I've been saying that too.
It feels like a bad joke that we have a stance for it while Ninja has it as a passive.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I can play the monk just fine, thank you. This game has a library of three expansions worth of content on top of the base game. Asking someone to memorize all of the content to be optimal is silly.

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No one really does this tho, the only time you'll ever really be pestered about your dps is in the hardest current content.
You shouldn't really have to think too much about what you're doing tho, there is a system just like there is with every other Job.
Sure your timing can be off but it's the same with Samurai, for example if the second Midare is coming up and I look at the cooldown of Tsubame and see that it's at around 30s, okay I know that I am on time so I continue as usual.
If it's bellow that due to mechanic delays then I move on to the filler and then the burst phase.
Hasn't failed me yet, it always lines up correctly.

It's the same with Monk, your timing will just naturally be off sometimes and that's where some intuition steps in.
Like maybe the burst phase is coming up and instead of refreshing Demolish only to have to clip it for the burst phase immediately after I'll just do two Dragon Kicks instead to compensate and then move into the burst phase with a buffed Demolish like in the opener.

Even when things go wrong it's less about making organic decisions and still more about a system.
Especially with Monk since the rotation overall isn't as relient on hiting specific notes like Samurai, at least with Samurai there could be argued to be more specific math that you need to do quickly in your head for things to line up.
I actually see the speed of Monk as more beneficial in that regard because adapting your burst phase to the clock can be done relatively close to the burst phase while with Samurai there's potentially more guess work.
It's easier to end up with Midare too early and for Tsubame to be on cooldown than it is to screw it up with Monk, and even if you do screw it up with Monk it's not really a big deal to clip Twin Snakes and Demolish.
While with Samurai you either need to sit there for a GCD and wait 1-2s for it to come off cooldown or continue and have it sit there off cooldown until after the next Midare.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

What choice? It's FoF 99.99999% of the time, the other small % is using FoE for damage mitigation for the lols when you can't hit anything anyway. Just like with Ninja's venoms they should remove it and apply the damage boost across the job.

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I'm not one for advocating dumbing down a job... but in this case I agree. The fist stances are largely useless and just a check to see if players are actually paying attention to their skills. The closest they ever had to making these stances mean anything was Stormblood having the be in the stances as part of using the riddles, and using wind tackle to get extra GL stacks so we could finally use Tornado Kick...

I can't see any way they can make the stances relevant, so just make them passive traits at the level you unlock them.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I'm not one for advocating dumbing down a job... but in this case I agree. The fist stances are largely useless and just a check to see if players are actually paying attention to their skills. The closest they ever had to making these stances mean anything was Stormblood having the be in the stances as part of using the riddles, and using wind tackle to get extra GL stacks so we could finally use Tornado Kick...

I can't see any way they can make the stances relevant, so just make them passive traits at the level you unlock them.

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Don't even bother that much with them. Just take the fist stances out of the game and be done with them. Burn them out of the game and never mention them again, even as traits. They are that worthless.

Every expansion has rendered the dumb things as little more than One Stance You Sit On, and Two Others You Ignore Forever. The one time you actually did something remotely different with them in your rotation was, shockingly enough, Shadowbringers, where players would open in Fire, then sit in Wind until they lost GL and needed to re-open.

People will talk for a looooong while about how GL "added nothing" to the job, but I'm here to tell you that the elemental fists were far worse to the overall health of the job's kit than GL ever was. After repeated button culls and reintroductions under different names and icons, the Elemental Fists have somehow withstood the test of a time, offering nothing to nearly every other aspect of the job until the introduction of GL4... which now doesn't even matter. They are collectively a diseased boil on the arse of the entire kit. Let the earth they get buried under be seeded with all the salt in the world. I would rather have three OGCDs to use in their place.

If the topic is Fist Stances, I've said it before: For all that there might be some sort of potential to do something with them that potential is meaningless if it's never manifested. We've had two expansions where they've added traits to them and those traits have always been worthless, and frankly I'd say that the "Riddle of" actions that were tied to them were just as bad as they were introduced in Stormblood, to the point where they were untied to the Fist Stances in Shadowbringers and have gone through multiple revisions. At this point I'd rather see the Fist Stances get deleted entirely so they stop wasting design space, because all they're doing now is stifling the job from growing in any other way by continuing to receive traits that contribute nothing to the job and shouldn't exist.r

Let them die and let the job grow. The job isn't improved by having a Tank or a Sprint Stance it never uses, there's no choice there. It wasn't improved by having the illusion of choice between Fists of Wind and Fists of Fire at the beginning of Shadowbringers either, because that's not a choice either. It's just something that will cause people who don't know better to make the wrong decision.

The only way I'd like to see Fists of Fire stay really is as a visual effect lol.
Just make it replace Riddle of Fire but with the same effect and make your fists actually visually be on fire.
Just makes more sense on a thematic level.

Just on a visual level I think Monks are in need of an update, Bootshine, True Strike and Snap Punch in particular look so visually underwhelming and not like we're these ultra masters of doom.
I also have the same problem as with Dancer which is that the animations just stop if you move in certain ways ( which we do a lot ).
Just looks really awkward when that happens.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

The only way I'd like to see Fists of Fire stay really is as a visual effect lol.
Just make it replace Riddle of Fire but with the same effect and make your fists actually visually be on fire.
Just makes more sense on a thematic level.

Just on a visual level I think Monks are in need of an update, Bootshine, True Strike and Snap Punch in particular look so visually underwhelming and not like we're these ultra masters of doom.
I also have the same problem as with Dancer which is that the animations just stop if you move in certain ways ( which we do a lot ).
Just looks really awkward when that happens.

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I agree we need a visual update of some kind. Some other helpful updates would be:

1. They should change Brotherhood so that it provides a temporary aura bubble that counts the number of attacks done by party members. Every 5th attack gives a chakra. Much less swingy than a 20% chance.
2. Perfect balance should drop us off in Opo-opo form when it wears off. As it stands right now, we end up losing a critical bootshine or lose out on leaden fists for one volley, which feels really odd.

I absolutely do not like riddle of fire. Melee OGCD's get staggered due to dodging boss mechanics, so all it does is create this unpleasant situation where the monk wants to line up her OGCD's, but the encounter design explicitly prevents that from happening outside of a target dummy. The only job with a real burst phase that I'm familiar with is the Machinist when he uses heat blast. I think they should just fold Riddle of Fire's damage into our other abilities and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

2. Perfect balance should drop us off in Opo-opo form when it wears off. As it stands right now, we end up losing a critical bootshine or lose out on leaden fists for one volley, which feels really odd.

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It might not be clear what you mean, however, to clarify, the only thing you should be doing when you are formless coming out of Perfect Balance is Dragon Kick. That will give a higher total potency for those 2 opo-opo GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I absolutely do not like riddle of fire. Melee OGCD's get staggered due to dodging boss mechanics, so all it does is create this unpleasant situation where the monk wants to line up her OGCD's, but the encounter design explicitly prevents that from happening outside of a target dummy. The only job with a real burst phase that I'm familiar with is the Machinist when he uses heat blast. I think they should just fold Riddle of Fire's damage into our other abilities and call it a day.

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Every single job has a burst phase. Dragoon has Life of the Dragon + Lance Charge, Samurai has Tsubame-gaeshi + Meikyo Shisui, Ninja has Trick Attack, BLM's fire phase is just one long burst, RDM has their melee combo, Summoner has the trances, Bard has Raging Strikes, Machinist has their heat and Dancer is around Technical Step. Some might be more flexible than others, however, every job has to play around these factors. This might mean delaying them until after a mechanic that pulls them away from a boss, it might mean delaying as the boss is about to jump and become untargetable, there are many different reasons. However, working your buffs around the boss is, again, a way to differentiate between a good player and a great player.

With your recent posts, I have to wonder, maybe playing melee just isn't for you?

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I agree we need a visual update of some kind. Some other helpful updates would be:

1. They should change Brotherhood so that it provides a temporary aura bubble that counts the number of attacks done by party members. Every 5th attack gives a chakra. Much less swingy than a 20% chance.
2. Perfect balance should drop us off in Opo-opo form when it wears off. As it stands right now, we end up losing a critical bootshine or lose out on leaden fists for one volley, which feels really odd.

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1. Brotherhood is pretty consistent especially with the latest buff. It´s not even near as bad as bard proccs can be.
2. I really don´t see the need for such "QoL" features especially not on an already strong skill. PB ends the burst phase and you move on with the next step.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

I think they should just fold Riddle of Fire's damage into our other abilities and call it a day.

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No.

It´s up to the player to decide how he´s gonna handling an issue or to delay a burst phase for overall more raid-dps, whatever. Getting ride of the burst phase would kill pretty much all timings you take care for on MNK. It´s pretty much perfect right now if you do and know your stuff well. All the off gcd´s incl. PB will be ready within this window unless you missplayed completely. (Not to mention that any class has a burst window, even tanks and healers.)

First GL, lately positionals, now the buffs, what´s next? I don´t get it. So many players got used to it, play MNK very well and the most boss fights are well designed for MNK. You just need to get used to the mechanics and use all of your tools, not just 123. Your party could even take more care for you strategy-wise like others do for BLM. So why do you or others even play the class, if everything is an issue or bad implemented?

Nothing against opinions, but there is definately a difference between real class-issues or playermade ones!
Just practice, try new stuff, be greedy to get a feeling for the perfect timing. All those named "issues" ARE just playermade. You can´t handle a situation or feel bad about that 100 dps loss and SE should change everything. Like why??? Any boss changes things for all players in some way, only phys. range are probably the only ones who´re not effected from any mechanics or other issues. Practice and adapt is the solution. If you can´t / don´t want that, maybe look for another class to play.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

It might not be clear what you mean, however, to clarify, the only thing you should be doing when you are formless coming out of Perfect Balance is Dragon Kick. That will give a higher total potency for those 2 opo-opo GCDs.



Every single job has a burst phase. Dragoon has Life of the Dragon + Lance Charge, Samurai has Tsubame-gaeshi + Meikyo Shisui, Ninja has Trick Attack, BLM's fire phase is just one long burst, RDM has their melee combo, Summoner has the trances, Bard has Raging Strikes, Machinist has their heat and Dancer is around Technical Step. Some might be more flexible than others, however, every job has to play around these factors. This might mean delaying them until after a mechanic that pulls them away from a boss, it might mean delaying as the boss is about to jump and become untargetable, there are many different reasons. However, working your buffs around the boss is, again, a way to differentiate between a good player and a great player.

With your recent posts, I have to wonder, maybe playing melee just isn't for you?

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I criticize the things I like because I want to see them become better. Also we're arguing semantics because I'm referring to stuff that would make it a smoother ride while you are talking about numbers.

Except your criticisms always seem to be attacking the fundamentals of the job. Why is Monk different to every other melee, it should be more like them etc.

Different is good. If jobs are too similar, what is the point of different jobs. They need to play different so that they attract different people.

I personally levelled Monk because, well, punching things. I had no idea what I was getting myself in for, however, during levelling, I had great fun going from flank to rear and back. It was completely different to being the tank and just standing still. I got Monk to 50 when Titan HM was still the hardest fight in the game outside first coils, and I had great fun trying to do the positional dance whilst dodging all of titans unavoidable attacks, and I succeeded once, and I was so ecstatic that I had managed to do it.

This is why people love the fast paced combat of constant positionals, because it feels really good when you manage to pull it off. If you fail at a point, that is just an area that needs improving on for next time. It was never a case of, this is dumb, they should tone down the positionals, it was more of a, what can I do better next time.

I will say it again, since you don't seem to like the core fundamentals of the job and the challenges it brings, maybe Monk is not for you. You don't seem to get along with the basics from an enjoyment level, so rather than make job suit you, try another job. Just leave Monk's basic playstyle alone so that the people who do enjoy it can continue to do so.