Bard "buff"

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

While we can only speculate why it's specifically "Bard", there is a strong preference for Bard in world race teams. Maybe the ranged player just loves bard that much, who knows.

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TpS was on Mogtalk two weeks ago and that was actually a question that came up. IIRC, BRD was chosen over DNC just because it's the easier of the two Jobs. Less procs on BRD made it easier to pay attention to the fight unlike DNC where you've got GCD procs, Feathers, Feather procs, and Esprit and Flourish. BRD's Song rotation is also easier to deal with unlike DNC where you gotta keep that Technical Step moving or it drifts horribly. I am pretty sure those were the main two reasons, but I can't verify since the podcast is almost four hours long and I have no idea where the timestamp is. Still, they do actually answer that question for why BRD over DNC.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

TpS was on Mogtalk two weeks ago and that was actually a question that came up. IIRC, BRD was chosen over DNC just because it's the easier of the two Jobs. Less procs on BRD made it easier to pay attention to the fight unlike DNC where you've got GCD procs, Feathers, Feather procs, and Esprit and Flourish. BRD's Song rotation is also easier to deal with unlike DNC where you gotta keep that Technical Step moving or it drifts horribly. I am pretty sure those were the main two reasons, but I can't verify since the podcast is almost four hours long and I have no idea where the timestamp is. Still, they do actually answer that question for why BRD over DNC.

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That's.... baffling. Dancer procs are extremely forgiving and low-pressure, giving you ample time to use them, whereas many Bard procs must be used within 3 seconds (or less) or else. Bard probably also gets more procs, numerically, over the course of a fight, and has DoTs to upkeep.

This sounds like the person just wanted to play Bard, and fed the team some nonsense explanation because none of them knew any better.

The comment about Technical Step is more true, and gets at the general reason not to bring a Dancer to prog. Dancer requires a very well-optimized group to outperform the other ranged, with bursts tightly planned and aligned, a partner who is on point and not going to die, etc. and that simply isn't what a first clear looks like. Dancer is good to have for Curing Waltz, but you do so knowing full well you're taking a hit on damage output.

Bard vs. Machinist is a little more of a guessing game, because with a strong-dps group Bard should win by a little while bringing some help via Minne, while Machinist is better at contributing damage to sloppy runs but lacks upside if you're at a point of needing a little plus-RNG to clear.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

That's.... baffling. Dancer procs are extremely forgiving and low-pressure, giving you ample time to use them, whereas many Bard procs must be used within 3 seconds (or less) or else. Bard probably also gets more procs, numerically, over the course of a fight, and has DoTs to upkeep.

This sounds like the person just wanted to play Bard, and fed the team some nonsense explanation because none of them knew any better.

The comment about Technical Step is more true, and gets at the general reason not to bring a Dancer to prog. Dancer requires a very well-optimized group to outperform the other ranged, with bursts tightly planned and aligned, a partner who is on point and not going to die, etc. and that simply isn't what a first clear looks like. Dancer is good to have for Curing Waltz, but you do so knowing full well you're taking a hit on damage output.

Bard vs. Machinist is a little more of a guessing game, because with a strong-dps group Bard should win by a little while bringing some help via Minne, while Machinist is better at contributing damage to sloppy runs but lacks upside if you're at a point of needing a little plus-RNG to clear.

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the world race is a bit tighter. Overall bard is easy it's the little things that could cost you the first clear

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

the world race is a bit tighter. Overall bard is easy it's the little things that could cost you the first clear

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"Little" things like dropping your DoTs three times and not optimizing your song cycle at all, forfeiting an entire Raging and Barrage for no reason? Because that's what happened, and they cleared with a dps death anyway. 99% chance the ranged player would have played Dancer way better than they played Bard on that particular pull. It's just that the payoff for doing so wouldn't have been there.

TpS is well known for being not-great at damage optimization, and it's actually silly to take what WF racers say about job balance seriously. It just doesn't matter enough for them to get punished for being wrong. Which is a good thing.

Sylink brought Bard because they unironically thought fflogs was bugged, on the basis of their healers dealing more damage with a Bard in their party, based on a sample size of three pulls each. Where the healers pressed more damage GCDs on the pulls where they dealt more damage.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

"Little" things like dropping your DoTs three times and not optimizing your song cycle at all, forfeiting an entire Raging and Barrage for no reason? Because that's what happened, and they cleared with a dps death anyway. 99% chance the ranged player would have played Dancer way better than they played Bard on that particular pull. It's just that the payoff for doing so wouldn't have been there.

TpS is well known for being not-great at damage optimization, and it's actually silly to take what WF racers say about job balance seriously. It just doesn't matter enough for them to get punished for being wrong. Which is a good thing.

Sylink brought Bard because they unironically thought fflogs was bugged, on the basis of their healers dealing more damage with a Bard in their party, based on a sample size of three pulls each. Where the healers pressed more damage GCDs on the pulls where they dealt more damage.

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not what I meant by little things. by little things by not having nature minnue and again it's easier to maximize your songs and your DoTs compare to maximizing Dancer. also brd has higher damage

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

not what I meant by little things. by little things by not having nature minnue and again it's easier to maximize your songs and your DoTs compare to maximizing Dancer. also brd has higher damage

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Well, yes, because maximizing Dancer is a group effort to make the most of its 2 minute burst. It's not because handling Dancer's procs is hard. Handling Dancer's procs is trivial.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

TpS is well known for being not-great at damage optimization, and it's actually silly to take what WF racers say about job balance seriously.

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Who should we take seriously?

If not the people for whom job balance literally makes or breaks their objective, then who?

The Speedrunners? Speedrunners don't actually care about job balance, they care about getting the fastest possible kill time, which has very little to do with balancing. The only case they overlap is when they want to speedrun, get the best potential runtime, and do it on any job they feel like playing at the time.

The...average joe? I can tell you people don't take me seriously on the matter.

The week 1 clearers? If we're not taking World Race views seriously, why should we take the Not-As-Dedicated-As-World-First people seriously?

World First race teams that use unexpected picks say volumes about the state of Job Balance without having to say anything, but it's also usually what we don't want to hear.

brd is the most easy physical range dps to play having good utility for world first prog

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Who should we take seriously?

If not the people for whom job balance literally makes or breaks their objective, then who?

The Speedrunners? Speedrunners don't actually care about job balance, they care about getting the fastest possible kill time, which has very little to do with balancing. The only case they overlap is when they want to speedrun, get the best potential runtime, and do it on any job they feel like playing at the time.

The...average joe? I can tell you people don't take me seriously on the matter.

The week 1 clearers? If we're not taking World Race views seriously, why should we take the Not-As-Dedicated-As-World-First people seriously?

World First race teams that use unexpected picks say volumes about the state of Job Balance without having to say anything, but it's also usually what we don't want to hear.

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You shouldn't take clearly ridiculous explanations seriously, even if the person saying it has (insert clout here). You don't need to listen to anybody to tell you what's common sense.

And job balance does not make or break world first kills. Nothing is tuned hard enough to make that the case. Mechanical identification, execution, and the creation of strats does. Stuff like getting your sleep schedule in place, knowing how to eat, etc. does. Having a good team dynamic with just the right number of cooks in the kitchen does. Job balance is just about the last thing that's relevant.

Asserting that Dancer is harder to get strong damage out of, compared to Bard, is fine. That's true, I agree with that generally and it's obvious if you've watched each tier play out over time.

Saying it's because Dancer's procs demand more attention than Bard's is laughable. I can only assume their Bard wasn't on the show, or maybe just didn't feel like saying it was personal comfort, or something was lost in translation when posted here.

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Originally Posted by Cetonis

You shouldn't take clearly ridiculous explanations seriously, even if the person saying it has (insert clout here). You don't need to listen to anybody to tell you what's common sense.

And job balance does not make or break world first kills. Nothing is tuned hard enough to make that the case. Mechanical identification, execution, and the creation of strats does. Stuff like getting your sleep schedule in place, knowing how to eat, etc. does. Having a good team dynamic with just the right number of cooks in the kitchen does. Job balance is just about the last thing that's relevant.

Asserting that Dancer is harder to get strong damage out of, compared to Bard, is fine. That's true, I agree with that generally and it's obvious if you've watched each tier play out over time.

Saying it's because Dancer's procs demand more attention than Bard's is laughable. I can only assume their Bard wasn't on the show, or maybe just didn't feel like saying it was personal comfort, or something was lost in translation when posted here.

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Why does it come off as you trying to find any reason to be upset that they used a bard? Whether or not a proc is easier to manage is a matter of opinion and preference anyway.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Why does it come off as you trying to find any reason to be upset that they used a bard? Whether or not a proc is easier to manage is a matter of opinion and preference anyway.

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Nobody is upset. But the claim that DNC is harder than BRD is indeed ridiculous.

Also, player's skill =/= job's difficulty awareness.

DNC has:

- A single OGCD (Fan Dance) with 4 charges, followed by possibly another OGCD (Fan Dance III) that always either lights up after the first one or not.
- GCD procs that don't necessarily need to be pressed on your next GCD and that can perfectly be delayed one GCD (which makes the rotation sleep inducing outside your Technical Step/Devilment windows). Also, 1 procs 3, 2 procs 4. Sesame Street much?
- 3 En Avant Charges that you don't even need at this point and that are QoL overkill.
- Not a single DoT to manage or refresh.
- Quite possibly the easiest AOE rotation that has ever existed.
- Not a single timer to keep track of, other than Standard Finish. But if you are letting SF fall off...big facepalm here.
- The Esprit Gauge, which is MCH's Battery's gauge levels of easy to manage due to allowing 2 Saber's Dance before you overcap the gauge and embarrass yourself (meaning you can perfectly delay your Saber's Dance for adds phase or burst windows without any trouble).
- Easy downtimes to manage due to Standard Step and Improvisation.

BRD doesn't benefit from the charge system on any of it's OGCDs, needs to keep track of dots and refresh them in very specific moments, needs to keep track of the song gauge and apex arrow which has a small window to be used, needs to keep track of song timers, needs to keep track of dots possibly triggering your procs roughly every 3 seconds and time your EA accordingly so that it wastes as few procs as possible. Has its biggest AOE potential attached to one of your songs for no reason other than to make everything even more annoying, needs careful attention with PPs ghosting all over the place when WM is about to finish. It's too a mile and a half harder to manage than DNC on downtimes due to DoT uptime and song alignments.

Could go on.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

-SNIP-.

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And yet...somehow...there are people out there, however rare or common you think they are, that prefer, or even do better, with that management then with what dancer does.

Brings back memories when people thought BRD was broken due to having no cast bars and free reign to attack and was accommodated in the following expansion with having cast bars. imo i need to see a massive rift within gameplay or DPS numbers if the job plays fine and the numbers are fair i dont see a need to ramble on about it. Mastery of your job and mechs is and will always will be supreme

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Originally Posted by Gallus

snip
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are you ignoring the fact that Tps did practice speed runs and prep for world first prog and won it are you saying that they are lying

Everyone saying 'lol Bard is fine because world first' need to be reminded that the very first UCOB clear was done with a Dark Knight, and I am pretty sure nobody here needs a refresher on the numerous problems that class had throughout Stormblood (nor do I expect anyone here to justify any of that today).

This thread is arguing about design, not what people who are comfortable with the class are capable of doing. Or was Samurai and Black Mage still being able to clear all content in Stormblood meant they were 'fine'? Though if one really wants to get into that specific argument, there was nothing really wrong with them last expansion, the real problem was the community's over-reliance on piercing meta rather than their own class design. But Bard's issues this expansion is more about the entire ranged role in general, on top of their own personal issues (mostly revolving around how random Apex Arrow is and that it doesn't add anything but an extra layer of frustration, for a skill that isn't even that strong to begin with).

(Come to think of it, Genshin Impact recently had a character that had random resource generation for his ultimate skill, and his overall design confused the community as to whether he was supposed to be a DPS or support character. He was advertised to be a DPS, but his entire kit was geared towards support that barely functioned at all. Not only that, but testers indicated that his kit kept changing constantly right up until he was officially released. The community over there rioted over the devs' non-answers regarding his design to the point where the devs are finally planning to buff him. Bard's current situation in FF14 is actually rather comparable to what happened to Zhongli from a mechanics standpoint, though I don't expect a riot here as Zhongli was a gacha character that some people spent upwards of a hundred dollars to obtain.)

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Everyone saying 'lol Bard is fine because world first' need to be reminded that the very first UCOB clear was done with a Dark Knight, and I am pretty sure nobody here needs a refresher on the numerous problems that class had throughout Stormblood (nor do I expect anyone here to justify any of that today).

This thread is arguing about design, not what people who are comfortable with the class are capable of doing. Or was Samurai and Black Mage still being able to clear all content in Stormblood meant they were 'fine'? Though if one really wants to get into that specific argument, there was nothing really wrong with them last expansion, the real problem was the community's over-reliance on piercing meta rather than their own class design. But Bard's issues this expansion is more about the entire ranged role in general, on top of their own personal issues (mostly revolving around how random Apex Arrow is and that it doesn't add anything but an extra layer of frustration, for a skill that isn't even that strong to begin with).

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Oh, finally something different. This topic has been going on about world first for no reason when the answer is obviously that people play what they want and what they are most comfortable with.
That's why there is many ranged players aswell despite the role having low rDPS.

SAM and BLM were underrated because we did not had access to rDPS calculations before and we all praised the buffs that applies to the whole party. And BLM wasn't as mobile as before.

Now that rDPS, pDPS and aDPS are well splitted we have a much better view about BLM and SAM weight in a group, how rDPS actually impact them. And it turns out they're good, even better than the other jobs in their group.

Funny enough, I remember when DNC buffs were much stronger, Devilment was at 30% crit/dh during the ShB playtest and most claimed it would be way too Overpowered.
For the 5.4 they buffed all jobs to close the gap between SMN, BLM and SAM, but forgot the ranged.

I think they either gave up for the 5.X or that's the way they intend ranged to be.
Buffing ranged for this expansion will be useless, we only have EX content and maybe one Ultimate to go through. I'm really hoping that they intend to rework the purpose of the role during the expansion. It's tiring to see that you have litterally little to no impact on the team utility, survival or DPS.

I echo the sentiment about reworking the purpose of the role. Ranged DPS are fine damage-wise, but they need a lot more to do. Casters have range and the non-selfish ones have resses, and melees have incredibly mobile (by necessity, not as an available option; there's an important distinction to be made) playstyles and the non-selfish ones have significant raid DPS boosts, many of which are unique in what they boost or how they interact with the job. Ranged DPS don't really have anything aside from generic raid DPS boosts that either feel negligible (bard) or come with a dull two-button rotation (dancer).

Honestly, I wouldn't care so much about ranged doing less damage if party support was at least more interesting.

Why can't we have party mp regen? Or a single target mitigation? Or a raidwide shield? At least then ranged would be more useful as a role because a good ranged can shield and buff to help the supports and tanks with mechanics. At the moment all we get is boring damage boost skills and a 120s cd raidwide mitigation skill, and if you're a dancer you get a small heal for stackup mechanics.

If they can't make ranged do more damage then the least they can do is make it more useful

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Ranged support in a nutshell

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Honestly, I'd go ham with support, there is so many ways to bring the "DPS support" on a decent level.

Peloton - Makes it a 180s CD that grants a small sprint and 3 charges of instant cast, not consumed if the cast is already instant.

Leg graze - Reduces single target damage dealt by the target. Also inflicts Heavy on target if it's not immune to it. (Like Arm's Length)


Tactician/Troubadour/Samba - If they have to be a 120s CD, at least increase the healing/shield received. Addle still exists and outshine rangeds, I don't have a mechanic in mind that deals both physical and magical damages and if it was the case, there's Feint for it.

I don't want SQEX to add defensives action, ranged rotations are currently lackluster and I'm already seeing SQEX adding 3 new traits and a new action barely changing the rotation overrall.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't want SQEX to add defensives action, ranged rotations are currently lackluster and I'm already seeing SQEX adding 3 new traits and a new action barely changing the rotation overrall.

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Honestly I think that defensive actions are the way to go if they're really so scared of adding skills that buff damage. At least that way a good ranged will also need the awareness of a tank/healer and plan out mitigation/shielding to make the most of it, and in turn make the healers have to waste less gcds healing. At least that way ranged will be valuable in prog groups where healers and tanks might have trouble keeping up with all the outgoing damage.

Though an aoe sprint on a charge is definitely an interesting concept, something like that or an aoe mana regen would be pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Honestly, I'd go ham with support, there is so many ways to bring the "DPS support" on a decent level.

Peloton - Makes it a 180s CD that grants a small sprint and 3 charges of instant cast, not consumed if the cast is already instant.

Leg graze - Reduces single target damage dealt by the target. Also inflicts Heavy on target if it's not immune to it. (Like Arm's Length)


Tactician/Troubadour/Samba - If they have to be a 120s CD, at least increase the healing/shield received. Addle still exists and outshine rangeds, I don't have a mechanic in mind that deals both physical and magical damages and if it was the case, there's Feint for it.

I don't want SQEX to add defensives action, ranged rotations are currently lackluster and I'm already seeing SQEX adding 3 new traits and a new action barely changing the rotation overrall.

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I really like the added effect for peloton. I myself think the way to go should be increasing the synergy between casters/healers and ranged dps by giving the latter more non-dps based utility. Also adding a refresh effect to tactician/troubadour/samba and making mp management (much) more challenging for healers would probably be a good idea. However I still think phys ranged should be at least 5% lower than other dps jobs in terms of rdps.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Oh, finally something different. This topic has been going on about world first for no reason when the answer is obviously that people play what they want and what they are most comfortable with.
That's why there is many ranged players aswell despite the role having low rDPS.

SAM and BLM were underrated because we did not had access to rDPS calculations before and we all praised the buffs that applies to the whole party. And BLM wasn't as mobile as before.

Now that rDPS, pDPS and aDPS are well splitted we have a much better view about BLM and SAM weight in a group, how rDPS actually impact them. And it turns out they're good, even better than the other jobs in their group.

Funny enough, I remember when DNC buffs were much stronger, Devilment was at 30% crit/dh during the ShB playtest and most claimed it would be way too Overpowered.
For the 5.4 they buffed all jobs to close the gap between SMN, BLM and SAM, but forgot the ranged.

I think they either gave up for the 5.X or that's the way they intend ranged to be.
Buffing ranged for this expansion will be useless, we only have EX content and maybe one Ultimate to go through. I'm really hoping that they intend to rework the purpose of the role during the expansion. It's tiring to see that you have litterally little to no impact on the team utility, survival or DPS.

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And on that note we do talk about the groups that are so good at the game that they figure e12s savage mechanics out in not even 3 days. Or specific thoughts per second do actually have people watching the stream and made call outs and they are actually God’s how optimal they play. Like they could play any job order and still would somehow clear

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Physical Ranged arent supposed to be top dps.

Again, I have said this to ranged dps players before, you have no position requirements, such as casting times (as with the other ranged classes) or melee positionals, as with the melee class.

This means you can be literally anywhere at any time, meaning your job is easier to play mechanically speaking.

With this in mind, the development team doesnt want the entire playerbase playing these classes. (Because if they could produce top dps numbers, and also have the mobility the draw to these classes would be extremely high.) If you want to play a top dps class and be a ranged, consider a caster.

If you enjoy the class you play, be the best at it. You arent going to be excluded for being an exemplary bard.

Most importantly, bards already asked for a damage increase, when they were given it in the form of cast times, they immediately regretted the changes and wanted their mobility back. Square-Enix at this point has made it very clear. You get cast times with more damage, or mobility with less damage. Pick your poison.

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I dont think thats what ranged is asking for they are asking for there to be less of a gap the gap is currently to wide. and they need to either

A. give ranged more party utility to make up for it

B. lessen the gap.........


Melee yes should hit harder then ranged because of less time on the boss however ranged should be able to keep up with melee damage wise by constantly hitting the boss so basically

Range pewpewpew should = melee pow dodge pow ( it currently does not!)

or worth taking utility needs to be added to all range jobs. ( whats currently there is not enough.)

taking a ranged class just because they give a 1% damage boost and only that reason while the other roles all have more reasons then this to be taken is the primary issue everyone is talking about!