The skill progression is atrocious

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I disagree. What mmo does combat better? FFXIV is clearly superior.

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Not sure what you mean, I didn't say the combat was bad or that other games does it better.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

It takes a few hours of game play to level to 50. If players don't want to invest a few hours into an mmo they should probably find a new genre.

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It just took me 4 days to get Dragoon to lvl 50 and that's with the bonuses from having a character at 80, company exp bonus, rested exp etc. That's more than a few hours to me. It takes vastly longer to get past 50 with your first character, especially since you will be stuck doing the post ARR MSQ. Not to mention most skills are locked to HW quests so even if you level up you don't get any new skills till you're done with ARR. And most jobs doesn't get most of their skill until after lvl 50.

Classes should have the core essentials at 30. Thinking about 10 to 15 abilities that form a 'complete, but very basic' class to use as a base.
A new ability every two to three levels should feel like enough, especially with the pace of early leveling.

Jobs should then work on getting their gauge set up and established by 50, with the 50 to 80 stretch adding neat side-abilities, upgrades and options.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Combat is the number one complaint I've seen from new players. They feel it's slow, clunky and boring and never get as far as 50+ to start unlocking oGcD's. First impressions matter a lot.

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Yet, somehow, someway, every new player has gone through this to get to the next tier, and the next, for the last 7 years. Many are still playing, many are new and still playing.

First impressions matter a lot, but there are other things about this game that appear to outweigh the leveling combat system, since it isn't the primary reason players continue to play Final Fantasy XIV.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yet, somehow, someway, every new player has gone through this to get to the next tier, and the next, for the last 7 years. Many are still playing, many are new and still playing.

First impressions matter a lot, but there are other things about this game that appear to outweigh the leveling combat system, since it isn't the primary reason players continue to play Final Fantasy XIV.

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Just because the leveling isn't the primary reason why people play (which it mostly isn't in mmorpgs, its almost always the endgame that determine player retention) and that many have persevered through it doesn't mean it cant or shouldn't be improved.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

It takes a few hours of game play to level to 50. If players don't want to invest a few hours into an mmo they should probably find a new genre.

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It might be a few hours for someone who already knows the game (especially what gives best exp) and is powerleveling a new job. But I can guarantee you a new player isn't going to do it that fast. I think it took me around two months of calendar time to get my first job to Lv50 back in 3.58 / 4.0, though I also had at least two others to Lv35 by that time (due to free-to-play restrictions and the delivery time of StB preorder). I had played almost 1.5 years by the time I caught up with the MSQ and had all endgame content unlocked. More recently it took about two weeks each to level GNB and DNC from Lv60 to Lv80, mostly by doing daily stuff like roulettes and beast tribes.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yet, somehow, someway, every new player has gone through this to get to the next tier, and the next, for the last 7 years. Many are still playing, many are new and still playing.

First impressions matter a lot, but there are other things about this game that appear to outweigh the leveling combat system, since it isn't the primary reason players continue to play Final Fantasy XIV.

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It's kinda like tolerating the noisy kid sitting next to you in a movie theater because the movie is still good. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a more enjoyable experience if the kid kept quiet.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So if you're out for a combat fix, play GW2. If you want a story fix, play FFXIV.

It's rather silly to expect any single game to be everything you want.

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Classic forum response. You dare offer criticism you get told to go play something else. lol You do realise what these forums are for, right?

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

Just because the leveling isn't the primary reason why people play (which it mostly isn't in mmorpgs, its almost always the endgame that determine player retention) and that many have persevered through it doesn't mean it cant or shouldn't be improved.

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You do realize ffxiv is at its highest sub #'s ever right? I think Yoshi P is doing a fine job of directing the game. You can go play without that burden.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You do realize ffxiv is at its highest sub #'s ever right? I think Yoshi P is doing a fine job of directing the game. You can go play without that burden.

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Yeah I wonder why that is, couldn't have anything to do with people being home because of a certain global event could it?

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

Yeah I wonder why that is, couldn't have anything to do with people being home because of a certain global event could it?

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Not really. Sub numbers have been increasing and the player base is growing significantly since xpac. I think that is a pretty well accepted fact. That's not to say that log in queues on many servers are due in part to people being home.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Not really. Sub numbers have been increasing and the player base is growing significantly since xpac. I think that is a pretty well accepted fact. That's not to say that log in queues on many servers are due in part to people being home.

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That may well be the case. But its also a fact that the gaming industry in general have been booming since this whole thing started. But whatever the case is, a big player base does not mean that the game is perfect and cant be improved.

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

That may well be the case. But its also a fact that the gaming industry in general have been booming since this whole thing started. But whatever the case is, a big player base does not mean that the game is perfect and cant be improved.

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No one says it's perfect but there is nothing wrong with the skill sets other than some miner tweeking of when skills become available given some roles have no aoe's at really low levels for example. if you think the development team is going to redo the skill sets and rebalance them to work for lower level content I would suggest you don't hold your breath.

That's not to say you can't ask for changes but it's pretty obvious the team has lots on their plate and this isn't something in my view that would be anywhere on their radar.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If you want access to your full toolkit, the simple solution is to do content your level instead of content that requires you to level sync. You're still going to get XP and tomestones as appropriate. You're also going to get a chance at gear for your level.

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i dont do roulettes. but new players do, and a very common complaint is that xiv takes forever for kits to become interesting. especially if youre overleveled but stuck doing arr msq. sometimes its good to put yourself in others' shoes you know? the skill progression IS atrocious and unintuitive. ill give an example: when black mage gets fire iii at lv 34, the skill is completely useless because you dont get astral fire iii till level 40, and firestarter till 42.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'm not particularly willing to let go of new dungeon, trial and raid instances for the next two years so that every single combat instance (including solo duties), from Sastasha onward, can be tuned for that 'more interesting kit when level synced'!

How about you?

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do you people seriously think that rearranging skills takes a whole weel of work from a team of devs? yall act like any change in this game is a monumental task. improving the early level experience is a feasible thing that can be done in 6.0

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

No one says it's perfect but there is nothing wrong with the skill sets other than some miner tweeking of when skills become available given some roles have no aoe's at really low levels for example. if you think the development team is going to redo the skill sets and rebalance them to work for lower level content I would suggest you don't hold your breath.

That's not to say you can't ask for changes but it's pretty obvious the team has lots on their plate and this isn't something in my view that would be anywhere on their radar.

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Oh I don't have any expectations. I'd be surprised if anyone even remotely close to the development team even glanced at this threads title. I am simply voicing my concerns and suggestions. As for how much work it would take, I have no idea. But since they are reworking the jobs from time to time, this could potentially be a part of that process.

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

Oh I don't have any expectations. I'd be surprised if anyone even remotely close to the development team even glanced at this threads title. I am simply voicing my concerns and suggestions. As for how much work it would take, I have no idea. But since they are reworking the jobs from time to time, this could potentially be a part of that process.

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Well for what it's worth they did adjust some lower level skills and how they are placed with the 5.0 xpac. That's not to say they won't further adjust them and some are in need of tweaking so specific suggestions might be worth mentioning.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Not really. Sub numbers have been increasing and the player base is growing significantly since xpac. I think that is a pretty well accepted fact. That's not to say that log in queues on many servers are due in part to people being home.

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Are we talking active sub numbers or account numbers? Because I've heard SE only ever mention account numbers. Mind you, not even active accounts, just total accounts which is the most useless measurement for success I've ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not outright doubting it, the sub numbers have been steadily growing since Stormblood but ShB does suffer from a bit of a content drought for a while now.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Are we talking active sub numbers or account numbers? Because I've heard SE only ever mention account numbers. Mind you, not even active accounts, just total accounts which is the most useless measurement for success I've ever seen.

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Not really. Number of active accounts is useless because, other than housing, there is nothing in the game that actively tries to keep you subbed, and housing is limited. Increasing total accounts means the interest for the game is still there. So as long as they keep making profit (preferably increasing profit) and interest is there (preferably high and/or rising), then that's what matters more for an ongoing service, regardless of the ups and downs of active accounts.

And I believe they don't count free trial accounts, so people have always had means to try FFXIV and see if it's a game for them, and even more so with the recent expanded trial feature.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Not really. Number of active accounts is useless because, other than housing, there is nothing in the game that actively tries to keep you subbed, and housing is limited. Increasing total accounts means the interest for the game is still there. So as long as they keep making profit (preferably increasing profit) and interest is there (preferably high and/or rising), then that's what matters more for an ongoing service, regardless of the ups and downs of active accounts.

And I believe they don't count free trial accounts, so people have always had means to try FFXIV and see if it's a game for them, and even more so with the recent expanded trial feature.

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You see it yourself, don't you? I'd argue player retention plays a not insignificant part in making profit. Interest doesn't mean anything if all they do is buy the game, make an account, play the 30 free days (at most) that probably came with the purchase and then quit.
They're not paying their monthly sub and they're not buying mogstation items, a.i. they're not making SE any more money.
And sure, SE might not do much to incentivize you to stay subbed and they might even tell you to take a break from the game but they still want you to keep paying monthly.

I think most classes at level 50 are ok, but they definitly need to give every dps class a spammable aoe skill at level 15, level 18 at the latest.
Ninja doesn't get one until level 38 and Dragoon until level 40. That is waaaaay to late.

And I really doubt, that the dev team has to sacrafice a dungeon/raid/whatever just to let us learn those few skills sooner.

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Originally Posted by NokTokPok

And I really doubt, that the dev team has to sacrafice a dungeon/raid/whatever just to let us learn those few skills sooner.

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If that was what was being asked, you'd be 100% correct. However, what was being asked was to either have your full kit (from level 80) to use in dungeon instances like Sastasha or at least have most of what you use at 80 handed to you on a plate leading up to level 50 (and then have access to it).

On the whole thing brought up about taking too long to progress in the game. Progression in this game to get to end game is faster than just about every MMO out there. Honestly I'm surprised SE even sells those skip items in the mogstation.

As for keeping most if not all your skills and traits when synced down to a lower level. As nice as it might be the inevitable social toxicity that would result from player behavior if they did this makes me not want this added.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

On the whole thing brought up about taking too long to progress in the game. Progression in this game to get to end game is faster than just about every MMO out there. Honestly I'm surprised SE even sells those skip items in the mogstation.

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I think the skip potions are mostly for skipping the quests. Gaining levels is just a secondary effect. This game has a lot of quests. SW:TOR, as I recall, had about one mandatory quest per level (possibly a bit more in the expansions). FFXIV has around 550 quests up to the start of Shadowbringers, or about 8 quests per level on average. Even if you don't care about the dialogue and cutscenes at all, it's still gonna take a while to finish them with all the traveling and combat involved. That's what the potion allows you to skip.

I suppose buying a skip potion for an alt job is a bit more odd, as there's only maybe 20 quest total per job. But some people are in a hurry.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

If that was what was being asked, you'd be 100% correct. However, what was being asked was to either have your full kit (from level 80) to use in dungeon instances like Sastasha or at least have most of what you use at 80 handed to you on a plate leading up to level 50 (and then have access to it).

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Read the first part.
I don't expect them do redo the classes in such a way, that we have more of our core abilitys at level 50. And imo that is not a problem. Like I said, most classes at level 50 are ok but the leveling to 50 is pretty bad.
They don't necessarily have to give us more skills, but we could use some skills sooner, most importantly aoe.
And I don't understand, why SE hasn't done it yet, since this isn't a difficult thing to do.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

If that was what was being asked, you'd be 100% correct. However, what was being asked was to either have your full kit (from level 80) to use in dungeon instances like Sastasha or at least have most of what you use at 80 handed to you on a plate leading up to level 50 (and then have access to it).

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i never said that but reading is hard. i said more interesting kits when synced down, not literally lv 80 rotations
i want them to address things like melee dps not getting aoe till lv 40, scholar not getting aetherflow till 45, black mage in general syncing horribly for the first 59 levels, etc. not make every class bluemage

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You see it yourself, don't you? I'd argue player retention plays a not insignificant part in making profit. Interest doesn't mean anything if all they do is buy the game, make an account, play the 30 free days (at most) that probably came with the purchase and then quit.
They're not paying their monthly sub and they're not buying mogstation items, a.i. they're not making SE any more money.

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That's why I said I don't think they count free trial accounts.

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And sure, SE might not do much to incentivize you to stay subbed and they might even tell you to take a break from the game but they still want you to keep paying monthly.

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Of course they want people to pay monthly, and there are people (like me) who do pay every month (or whatever subscription cycle people choose). If SE is not happy with FFXIV's financial performance, then they would need to do something about it. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter.

As to the topic of this thread:

I don't see it as an issue personally and actually appreciate when I can use less buttons in lower dungeons. So, while I'm not really against putting more buttons at lower level, I would prefer they space them more or less equally throughout the leveling experience (and adjust the duties accordingly).

That said, I do think different jobs in the same role should more or less gain similar types of abilities at around the same level range.

I would wager balance is also a worthy counterclaim. Example being on my alt going through HW instanced was embarrassing as I barley needed to heal and the tank busters were minor sneezes.

Also some jobs are more simple than others and inevitably will be shallow in the short end of the starter dungeons, which are tutorial dungeons after all not to be compared with 50/60/70/80 which are the more noteworthy ones worth a dam . But it wouldn’t hurt to adjust some skills here and there to make it so they have options going into certain instances. Like maybe Give Ninja Death Blossom and Dragoon Doom Pike earlier?

Probably the best well rounded job in the game is Samurai despite starting at 50 , which is overkill. If it started at 30 like any other job should it would’ve still been a smooth progression. Got your AOE before 30, Got your main mech at 30 aswell as a compete 1-2-3 rotation. 35 enhances said Aoe, 40 completes a second rotation and adds another ability to its mech, 45 essentially completed its basic Aoe, and 50 gives birth to its first form as a 50 job which despite 30 levels to go feels complete. 51+ adds Kenki regeneration and movement options, 61+ adds Offensive Kenki abilities, 71+ adds the final layers to the job. Sadly Not all jobs are layered like Samurai and some are just too simple to divide it to this extent. MCH for example gets most of its tools at 50 and besides 2 skills the other 7 or so skills are shallow animation upgrades or Token aoes.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Probably the best well rounded job in the game is Samurai despite starting at 50 , which is overkill. If it started at 30 like any other job should it would’ve still been a smooth progression. Got your AOE before 30, Got your main mech at 30 aswell as a compete 1-2-3 rotation. 35 enhances said Aoe, 40 completes a second rotation and adds another ability to its mech, 45 essentially completed its basic Aoe, and 50 gives birth to its first form as a 50 job which despite 30 levels to go feels complete. 51+ adds Kenki regeneration and movement options, 61+ adds Offensive Kenki abilities, 71+ adds the final layers to the job. Sadly Not all jobs are layered like Samurai and some are just too simple to divide it to this extent. MCH for example gets most of its tools at 50 and besides 2 skills the other 7 or so skills are shallow animation upgrades or Token aoes.

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The same goes for dancer and red mage who both have most of their AoE and single target attacks by lvl 30-35. Ironic that the jobs starting at a higher level are the most fleshed out at the lower.

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

The same goes for dancer and red mage who both have most of their AoE and single target attacks by lvl 30-35. Ironic that the jobs starting at a higher level are the most fleshed out at the lower.

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I completely disagree on DNC, the job regardless of how many Aoes it has it a bore in the beginning and it benefits a lot being a late as hell job starting at 60 due to the lack of skills and how the job takes forever to evolve from 30 if it was a starter job. Also DNC and RDM whole kit has more aoes either from the get go or in general. DNC having 9 skills doing Aoe damage and RDM having 4 before 50. While Dragoon has their main 1-2-3 Aoe stretched from 40 to 62 to 72 aswel as Dragonfire Dive at 50 with a long as hell CD and its 2 Blooddragon at 60 and 70 finishers. Technically has more Aoes than RDM but RDM is more condensed and not pulled so far

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I completely disagree on DNC, the job regardless of how many Aoes it has it a bore in the beginning and it benefits a lot being a late as hell job starting at 60 due to the lack of skills and how the job takes forever to evolve from 30 if it was a starter job. Also DNC and RDM whole kit has more aoes either from the get go or in general. DNC having 9 skills doing Aoe damage and RDM having 4 before 50. While Dragoon has their main 1-2-3 Aoe stretched from 40 to 62 to 72 aswel as Dragonfire Dive at 50 with a long as hell CD and its 2 Blooddragon at 60 and 70 finishers. Technically has more Aoes than RDM but RDM is more condensed and not pulled so far

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Yeah but even though DNC has a lack of skills it has more going for it at the beginning than pretty much any job that starts at lvl 1. I guess what I mean is that the skill progression of those jobs are more well rounded, that they may lack skills or complexity later is another thing.

Doesn't machinist get hypercharge at 30 but heat blast only at 35?
That's how bad the progression is

Hypercharge gives +20 potency to single target attacks though, so it's not useless by itself.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Hypercharge gives +20 potency to single target attacks though, so it's not useless by itself.

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It's not useless, it does however feel terrible if you ever played MCH at higher levels.

Yeah, it's certainly not as satisfying without Heat Blast. Fortunately there's not many dungeons in that level range.

Exactly, the game is such boring chore, it literally holds players back to not have fun till last levels

Not to mention most of the jobs do not functions properly without core skills

It's very archaic idea of progression with skills on levels up ( but what happens if you spreed the same amount of skills from first expansion till last one in upcoming years )

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I would wager balance is also a worthy counterclaim. Example being on my alt going through HW instanced was embarrassing as I barley needed to heal and the tank busters were minor sneezes.

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In the past, I may have agreed. However, the devs have routinely shown they don't give a flying hoot about balance at lower levels. Look no further than Dancer, which is hilariously OP at >50. Red Mage is comparably far stronger than Summoner and Black Mage until the 60ish mark. Meanwhile, Samurai is so comically weak at 70, it's actually out-dps'd by all three Range even in Ultimate. Once you factor in how significantly they've nerfed older content, it's more than apparent they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to balance below max level.

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Originally Posted by testname

Exactly, the game is such boring chore, it literally holds players back to not have fun till last levels

Not to mention most of the jobs do not functions properly without core skills

It's very archaic idea of progression with skills on levels up ( but what happens if you spreed the same amount of skills from first expansion till last one in upcoming years )

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If it's a boring chore, why are you still playing several years later when nothing about the game's skill progression design has changed in that time.

It's not an archaic idea of progression. It's a different one that core to RPGs, which tend to emphasis character development over time. You start knowing nothing. You gradually get stronger. There are plenty of other game genres to choose to play if you want to be all powerful from the start.

Quite honestly, this game would get boring fast if you started off all powerful then had nothing to look forward to in the way of character development.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If it's a boring chore, why are you still playing several years later when nothing about the game's skill progression design has changed in that time.

It's not an archaic idea of progression. It's a different one that core to RPGs, which tend to emphasis character development over time. You start knowing nothing. You gradually get stronger. There are plenty of other game genres to choose to play if you want to be all powerful from the start.

Quite honestly, this game would get boring fast if you started off all powerful then had nothing to look forward to in the way of character development.

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No one has said that you should be all powerful from the start and not receive any new abilities during your characters development. No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities. This game does not have a gradual character progression, its sporadic.

Edit: not to mention that the gameplay of most RPGs are not solely based or using skills, which this type of MMORPG is.

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Originally Posted by Lumberfoot

No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities.

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You have your first ability right from the start and one of the first quests you do gives you another ability: Return.

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This game does not have a gradual character progression, its sporadic.

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Nope, it's gradual progression through gears and abilities. Time between patches and expansions does not make it sporadic.

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Edit: not to mention that the gameplay of most RPGs are not solely based or using skills, which this type of MMORPG is.

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Well, it's a good thing this game does give you the skills to do the relevant content.

Although, there are other contents outside of combat and crafting/gathering. So it's wrong to say that the gameplay is "solely based on using skills."

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Originally Posted by linayar

You have your first ability right from the start and one of the first quests you do gives you another ability: Return."

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That's some seriously poor bait.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Nope, it's gradual progression through gears and abilities. Time between patches and expansions does not make it sporadic.

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I have not said anything about the time between patches and expansions.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Although, there are other contents outside of combat and crafting/gathering. So it's wrong to say that the gameplay is "solely based on using skills."

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I guess the game is not based on using skills because the gold saucer exists? Of course you can spend hours walking around cities, chatting and so on without using any skills, but that does not mean that the main part of the game is not based on using them.

I've subbed to this game for years now, and is my primary MMO. Absolutely adore the story. And for someone like me Gameplay tends to be tied with story for me as the major selling points.

But the thing is this...

OP is right. The pre-50 levels are horrendously boring for the vast majority of classes. The only reason i find a way to grind past it is because i want to see what the classes are like 70+. Most classes dont even resemble their end-game versions. pre 60 BLM doesnt even play remotely similar to post 60. Same with BRD and many others.

You can level up quickly yes, and for someone like me its not a huge deal. But i can not even respect someone of the opinion that its good enough and does not warrant change.

its 2020. The tech is there to have our cake and eat it too. We shouldn't have to sacrifice gameplay for story, or vice versa. And the people who believe that to be true are whats wrong with the gaming community.