Could there be a relatively peaceful solution to the shard problem?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

As for history and cultures, those could still be preserved through historical records and such, just as lost cultures are (sometimes) preserved under ordinary circumstances.

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What historical records? If you're proposing to shut down the entire world, there'll be nobody left to keep records. Or read them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What historical records? If you're proposing to shut down the entire world, there'll be nobody left to keep records. Or read them.

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To play Devil's Advocate: Maybe the people of those worlds could summon a primal akin to the Superman villain Brainiac, a living machine whose modus operandi is typically to record all information a planet has to offer while also systematically destroying it. The end goal being to be the only thing left in existence, presumably with perfect knowledge of what the universe was like.


Final Fantasy even has a villain pair like that already in FFIV: The After Years' primary antagonists: The Creator and his cohorts, the Maenads.


FF4: TAY Spoilers, natch:

The former utilizes that game's crystals to keep records of the histories and evolution of entire worlds, then has those crystals retrieved and drops his planet-eating space station, the True Moon, onto them to wipe out worlds he deems unworthy of continued growth, out of an irrational fear that if left unchecked, the people living on those worlds will repeat the tragedy that wiped out his own race and consumed his own world.

The latter are, well, his minions. They are basically superhuman Rydia clones, right down to being able to summon Eidolons, albeit only by stealing their souls and brainwashing them, as the Eidolons would never obey her commands otherwise.

The After Years isn't exactly the best written game in the series, and a lot of its troubled writing comes down to copying whole events and plot elements as fanservice to the original FFIV. But conceptually, I like the idea of both villains and think something like them could work in FFXIV.

Though to be frank, the fact that all of the above are not just antagonists, but outright villains, says a lot about the lens through which "record history, then destroy the source" is viewed as a concept.


There's also a ton of issues involved with summoning a primal, such as the rampant consumption of aether, tempering and the sycophantic behavior of tempered thralls, and having a God complex by virtue of literally being Gods, man-made or otherwise. Oh, and we'd also have to find a way to get the information to the Source, 'cause if it's still on the relevant reflection to be rejoined, it'd like as not be wiped out along with that shard. And we'd also need some means of retrieving that information from whatever it's contained in—to say nothing of having a means of containing it in the first place. And we'd still have to find a way to make a rejoining happen without causing/amplifying a calamity on the Source, which is seemingly impossible and at the very least improbable.


So... probably not feasible in the slightest. And also still pretty horrifying in terms of how many people would have to die. There's really no such thing as a humane way to drive an entire world's population into extinction.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I think the original proposition involved a gradual tapering-off. No new life would be born on the worlds, and all existing life would live out their existence until natural death. No one would be asked to give up their life - just their potential for children. As for history and cultures, those could still be preserved through historical records and such, just as lost cultures are (sometimes) preserved under ordinary circumstances.

All this, of course, would STILL be a very hard sell. Which is why I remarked a while back that if we had the potential for this, we'd basically be living in a utopian society already.

Still, after seeing what the ancients used to have, I think it's quite likely that there would be more than a few pepole pushing for this if it could be done gently. (And a few, like Varis, who would push for it regardless...)

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The issue with a slow burnout of life is that it's absolutely horrible. It's even less humane than just blowing the place up. If you stop all new life from coming into existence, that will quickly kill off livestock, who if not slaughtered for meat have a shorter lifespan than people (spoken races) anyway. Plant life will gradually die out as well. Eventually people will have nothing to eat; this "gentle Rejoining" does nothing but doom people to death via starvation in a few years.

Without a logistical solution to transporting any record of the shard worlds, making them is pointless.

The only people who would push for Rejoinings, gradual or otherwise, are those who believe they would personally benefit from them - as Alisae suggests Varis only thinks Rejoinings are acceptable because he believes that he'll be the one at the top in the very end (and implicitly that Garlemald will make it out relatively unscathed). Unless there were a crisis of untold proportions necessitating the shards give up their existence and they were doomed beyond a shadow of a doubt anyway, absolutely nobody would agree to this.

Except for the literal end of the world nothing justifies genocide, much less omnicide. (inb4 "Hydaelyn genocided the Ancients!": yes, and it was wrong of her, but it's unclear whether that was deliberate on her part and it still doesn't justify the Ascians deliberately trying to omnicide / genocide the shard worlds and Source, respectively.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The only people who would push for Rejoinings, gradual or otherwise, are those who believe they would personally benefit from them - as Alisae suggests Varis only thinks Rejoinings are acceptable because he believes that he'll be the one at the top in the very end (and implicitly that Garlemald will make it out relatively unscathed).

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And considering what the original inhabitants would be like, I'd imagine that many if not all of those that would hawk for rejoinings would be megalomaniacs, the kind of people seeking godhood and ego-stroking. the Kefkas, the Sephiroths and the Valthreys alike.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What historical records? If you're proposing to shut down the entire world, there'll be nobody left to keep records. Or read them.

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If we're arranging this thing in a cooperative manner, then that means that we're in communication with the other worlds. Records can be kept on the Source.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The issue with a slow burnout of life is that it's absolutely horrible. It's even less humane than just blowing the place up. If you stop all new life from coming into existence, that will quickly kill off livestock, who if not slaughtered for meat have a shorter lifespan than people (spoken races) anyway. Plant life will gradually die out as well. Eventually people will have nothing to eat; this "gentle Rejoining" does nothing but doom people to death via starvation in a few years.

Without a logistical solution to transporting any record of the shard worlds, making them is pointless.

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These are all problems that are already solved if we even have the means to arrange anything we'd call a "gentle Rejoining" in the first place. For it to even be feasible, we already need to be able to communicate with the other worlds, and likely also have physical transportation to them, as well.

Remember, the goal here is GENTLE. If horrific starvation is part of the outcome - if horrific ANYTHING is part of the outcome - then we've already failed the "gentle" part. Remember, the whole point of this mental exercise is to find a way that's NOT HORRIBLE. If we just find a way that's as bad as what the Asicans would do, but a different sort of bad, then that entirely misses the point! That means no suffering, mass voluntary acceptance. Some melancholy is okay, I suppose. Do I think such a solution is realistic or possible? Probably not - as I said, for folks to be on board with this, they'd already need to be a utopia on par with that of the Ancients. And if we already have that, then what's the point of returning to that state?

Remember, too, that the goal is to find a way to make this work, and the "extinction by childlessness" plan was only the first idea put forth. If it's not acceptable, what would be? Any solution you like; the sky's the limit. How about mass relocation of every worlds' population to the Source? Let them live natural lives, and their souls return to the Source's Lifestream when they die. Not enough room on the Source for everyone all at once? Do one world at a time. And that's simply another potential idea - if it fails for whatever reason, find another.

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The only people who would push for Rejoinings, gradual or otherwise, are those who believe they would personally benefit from them - as Alisae suggests Varis only thinks Rejoinings are acceptable because he believes that he'll be the one at the top in the very end (and implicitly that Garlemald will make it out relatively unscathed). Unless there were a crisis of untold proportions necessitating the shards give up their existence and they were doomed beyond a shadow of a doubt anyway, absolutely nobody would agree to this.

Except for the literal end of the world nothing justifies genocide, much less omnicide. (inb4 "Hydaelyn genocided the Ancients!": yes, and it was wrong of her, but it's unclear whether that was deliberate on her part and it still doesn't justify the Ascians deliberately trying to omnicide / genocide the shard worlds and Source, respectively.)

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It's only genocide if you're doing it to someone else. If they're doing it voluntarily, it becomes more like mass self-sacrifice - much like the Ancients did. Of course, even THEY only agreed to it because they were looking at a literal end-of-the-world scenario anyway, just as you describe. The difference between them and the current peoples? If we were looking at the literal end of everything, doomed if you don't, doomed if you do (but maybe will save some other people you've never met) - you'd STILL have a lot of trouble getting the doomed people to agree to die.

That's why for the pitch to have any hope at all, it can't be asking for personal death. Asking someone to die for your cause? Hard no. Asking someone to not have children for your cause? There's room for negotiation, there. Heck, some people voluntarily go childless WITHOUT any such lofty cause motivating it. As for the demise of your civilization - your average man-on-the-street probably cares about where his next meal is coming a lot more than he does the proud tradition of the Royal Family or whatever other legacy his nation clings to. It would be the leaders and the intellectuals who would be concerned about that aspect, and they're a relatively low portion of the population. Keep the bread and circuses going, and your job is half done.

As for the leaders and intellectuals - you mentioned that the only folks who would push for this are the ones who believe they would personally benefit (e.g. Varis and his Empire). That's not really true; the whole reason we're having this discussion is the original poster thinks folks would be better off living in an immortal utopia than in the cycle of continuous suffering we currently call mortal life. That's one person, right off the bat, and you can bet there would be others. These kind of ideals are things that intellectuals can latch onto. They see suffering in the world, and look for solutions, both short-term and long-term. These are the kind of people who can rationalize that the future is more than just the continuation of their own society, that their future IS this idyllic melded world. Their "children" then become the people born into this new paradise.

You're either murdering an entire world's worth of people, helping / allowing them to commit suicide, or sterilizing them (willfully or otherwise). Trying to slice it any other way is mere sophistry.

If it were possible to send records across dimensions, the most humane way to deal with the "issue" is to find a way to Rejoin shards without causing Calamities on the Source. Find that and make it quick. Send the records over, then blow up the shard in an instant. Anything else is going to cause long-term problems and suffering. Sterilize the shard? Even if you limit it to the spoken races (thus allowing them to live out their natural lifespans), you're still forcing them to suffer in despair as they watch their people die out (and when they become geriatric, who's going to care for them?). Teleport them to the Source? Aside from the problem of being an entire world's worth of refugees (when even Eorzea's wealthiest city-state can't or won't support another's worth of refugees), knowing you can't go home again is going to take a severe psychological toll on many.

There is no real way to be humane about it and have consent. Realistically you are never going to get unanimous agreement to the extermination (one way or another) of an entire world's population and the annihilation of the world itself.

Could people be convinced to go along with this? Of course they could, but to sell it as anything less than extinction and annihilation is sophistry.

Now, on to the last bit - while Amaurotine civilization at least appears better than what exists now, it wasn't perfect; chiefly its people seemed given to indolence, given their inaction in saving the volcano island Azem impetuously went to help, as well as the fact they did nothing about the Final Days but research until the crisis personally affected them. A longer lifespan means you're more given to putting things off. Further, while the Ancients were longer lived, it's highly doubtful they were outright immortal; the unsundered Ascians simply extended their lifespans far beyond what would normally be permissible via the power of the Echo. The days of the "paradise" of Amaurot are gone, and will never return no matter what people do. (Key point: Amaurot was the capital of Utopia in Thomas More's eponymous book; "utopia" literally translates to "nowhere.")

Besides which, a case for mortality can be made - it's what pushes people to do great and terrible things, but it also drives people to accomplish the impossible. Case and point: Bad Future Ironworks, who accomplished in ~100 years what the Ascians could not in over 12,000. Living life to the fullest requires having your time be limited, and the "peaceful cooperation" touted by Emet-Selch's phantoms doesn't actually appeal to everyone (some people find satisfaction only in competition; is this morally incorrect, as Amaurotine society would paint it being?).

Mortality - knowing our time is limited - is what gives our lives meaning; and no matter how "perfect" a society may seem to be, how "perfect" a society's members may believe it to be, it's not.

But, you want a way to both humanely exterminate a world's worth of people and have them all consent to it? Not possible. (Or at least so implausible it may as well be impossible.)

Honestly if communication was possible between worlds, then it is very likely then travel would be as well. Under that premise then it might just be a matter of migrating everyone from one world to the Source and find a way to siphon off that aether from that shard.

But with that said there are still issues considering that it would entail displacing an entire world's population, a migrant crisis that might make RL ones look like child's play and then there's the possibly that any attempt at rejoining a land, depopulated or otherwise, would still be a disaster worthy of the title of calamity, and thus merely lowering the risk and means of dying form "guaranteed cessation of existence" to "snowball's chance in the seven hells that most of the now doubled population survives".

Oh and going with the disembodied soul form of travel like the Scions did has further complications (namely that their life still depends on their body on the Source still be alive) and is more a unexpected astral projection if anything. Ardbert and his group' takes on it required suicide so that falls under the issues inherent with the original proposed solution of the exercise and also the issue of Self-sacrifice that no one would agree too unless their world was doomed anyway (the exact scenario that is the reason Ardbert, Lamitt, Raena-Rae, Nylebert and Branden made their sacrifice and also the one that apparently necessitated Zodiark's conception).

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's only genocide if you're doing it to someone else. If they're doing it voluntarily, it becomes more like mass self-sacrifice - much like the Ancients did. Of course, even THEY only agreed to it because they were looking at a literal end-of-the-world scenario anyway, just as you describe. The difference between them and the current peoples? If we were looking at the literal end of everything, doomed if you don't, doomed if you do (but maybe will save some other people you've never met) - you'd STILL have a lot of trouble getting the doomed people to agree to die.

That's why for the pitch to have any hope at all, it can't be asking for personal death. Asking someone to die for your cause? Hard no. Asking someone to not have children for your cause? There's room for negotiation, there. Heck, some people voluntarily go childless WITHOUT any such lofty cause motivating it. As for the demise of your civilization - your average man-on-the-street probably cares about where his next meal is coming a lot more than he does the proud tradition of the Royal Family or whatever other legacy his nation clings to. It would be the leaders and the intellectuals who would be concerned about that aspect, and they're a relatively low portion of the population. Keep the bread and circuses going, and your job is half done.

As for the leaders and intellectuals - you mentioned that the only folks who would push for this are the ones who believe they would personally benefit (e.g. Varis and his Empire). That's not really true; the whole reason we're having this discussion is the original poster thinks folks would be better off living in an immortal utopia than in the cycle of continuous suffering we currently call mortal life. That's one person, right off the bat, and you can bet there would be others. These kind of ideals are things that intellectuals can latch onto. They see suffering in the world, and look for solutions, both short-term and long-term. These are the kind of people who can rationalize that the future is more than just the continuation of their own society, that their future IS this idyllic melded world. Their "children" then become the people born into this new paradise.

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I think it should be remembered that Rejoining all the shards into the Source is part of the Ascians' plans, but not the entire plan.

Let's say, through whatever means, the shards are "gently and peacefully" Rejoined to the Source. Everyone is Unsundered (let's also assume the Thirteenth is saved, since why not). Peace reigns over the entire world.

This will last exactly as long as it takes for the Ascians to sacrifice everyone not including them to Zodiark, so they can get their former Amaurotine friends back.

The Ascians don't want a simple return to something resembling the World That Was. They want a complete reset button, at the cost of everyone who lived after the point they want to reset to. So the historical records and civilizations of all the shards that are gently rejoined to the Source will end up as mere curiosities buried deep in an Akademia somewhere, completely irrelevant to anyone, since the only people around would be Amaurotines (and contemporary Ancients) who weren't even around for them, since they had been sacrificed to Zodiark before any of it came about.

There will be no children born into this new paradise from anyone currently on the Source or the shards. Only the previously sacrificed Ancients and presumably their children will benefit.

(I assume this works with the "everyone is a Sundered Ancient soul" lore in that being sacrificed to Zodiark doesn't consume your soul as such. Somehow.)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I think it should be remembered that Rejoining all the shards into the Source is part of the Ascians' plans, but not the entire plan.

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Let's be clear here, that it is NOT the goal here to fulfill the Ascians' plan. You're right, what we're talking about here is only part of THEIR plan. The rest of the plan was to get the actual, original Ancients back again. We don't care about that part. The goal is to elevate the races of the world to the former immortal, godlike state the Ancients enjoyed, and hopefully also form a society that is similarly peaceful (that peace most likely made possible because their godlike abilities allowed them to live in a post-scarcity capacity).

Resurrecting the lost Ancients is something the Ascians want, but is not part of the goal of this "gentle Rejoining". We can totally discount that as a reason this plan coudn't work. There are many other reasons this plan couldn't work, but that's not one of them!

As for Cilia's last post, pretty much every point made I've already addressed in a previous post, so any response would just be repetiiton of stuff I've already written. No point in going round and round!

No, no, it is a valid point.

Thing is, getting back to the "nigh-immortal, nigh-omnipotent" level of the Ancients would require more than just completing the Rejoining. All that would accomplish is getting soul densities back to the level they were pre-Sundering. It would not grant the power of the Ancients; that power is endemic to the Ancient race. All you'd do is get the races you have in the here and now with pre-Sundering soul density (with Echo users able to call upon the power of their Ancient incarnation, as now).

The people of the First aren't magnitudes weaker or shorter-lived than we Source dwellers. "Just" Rejoining the Shards would not be enough to return the world to the pre-Sundering "paradise" or give the peoples of that melded world the power and longevity of the Ancients.

Not unanimously, no, but I suspect that those that have the echo would be uplifted to that power and maybe that longevity as well. Which would still leave some mortals around but also means that rejoining would still have some newly minted gods...

And that is a problem because even if the Ascians just stopped at merging all the worlds and not feed everyone to Zodiark, that would mean there are some new gods of mortal origin that might seek to exploit their newfound powers to stand atop of the hierarchies...and create them themselves.

I still don't see any reason to assume that restoring humanity to an unsundered state would automatically be linked to a return to Amaurot's peaceful state - assuming that even existed "because Ancients are inherently like that" and not because they were a single cloistered society taught to conform, only expressing their private views when debating for the sake of debating and not calling for actual change...

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The goal is to elevate the races of the world to the former immortal, godlike state the Ancients enjoyed, and hopefully also form a society that is similarly peaceful (that peace most likely made possible because their godlike abilities allowed them to live in a post-scarcity capacity).

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We don't actually know if everyone will turn into near-immortal Ancients when Unsundered. (Ancients are definitely not immortal, but they certainly lived much longer than we do.) The Convocation wanted to sacrifice the "new life" that rose upon the planet after the apocalypse, so there are presumably "lesser" lives present that got Sundered as well. And judging from the short stories we've gotten, it's implied that some of the Amaurotines (certainly many on the Convocation) see other people as "lesser".

We're also told (via out-of-game dev interview answers) that everyone on every shard is a Sundered Ancient soul. So that means this "new life" counts as Ancient souls. And presumably Alpha's new soul as of the end of the Omega questline counts as a sundered Ancient soul as well? I don't even know.

So my point is that we have no guarantee all the souls will turn into full-powered godlike Ancient souls upon being Unsundered. There must be at least some "lesser" souls, which the Convocation was planning to sacrifice.

I always assumed the new life was the various races that exist today.

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that the ancients would sacrifice new ancients to bring back old ancients. A bunch of new races though? Races that were seeded by their god, and therefore by proxy by them. Races that can barely live to a hundred years and are worn out well before that. Well, they're barely alive in comparison, or so the argument would go at least.

"Hey, if we sacrifice this thing that'll be dead in a hundred years anyway, we can bring back your friend who had at least another couple millennia in him."

I hate to say it, but I suspect I'd be at least a little bit tempted.

"Hey, should we kill all these new members of our species to bring back the dead ones we killed to create them?"

Lot less tempting that, and kinda stupid, like slaughtering your way through a maternity ward to resurrect Grandpa. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

We don't actually know if everyone will turn into near-immortal Ancients when Unsundered. (Ancients are definitely not immortal, but they certainly lived much longer than we do.) The Convocation wanted to sacrifice the "new life" that rose upon the planet after the apocalypse, so there are presumably "lesser" lives present that got Sundered as well. And judging from the short stories we've gotten, it's implied that some of the Amaurotines (certainly many on the Convocation) see other people as "lesser".

We're also told (via out-of-game dev interview answers) that everyone on every shard is a Sundered Ancient soul. So that means this "new life" counts as Ancient souls. And presumably Alpha's new soul as of the end of the Omega questline counts as a sundered Ancient soul as well? I don't even know.

So my point is that we have no guarantee all the souls will turn into full-powered godlike Ancient souls upon being Unsundered. There must be at least some "lesser" souls, which the Convocation was planning to sacrifice.

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I think what you've misinterpreted here is the disdain Ascians have for people are the fact they have fragmented souls, not some misplaced xenophobia. The people that are "lesser" now are incomplete souls to them and that's what makes them undesirable. I think before the sundering everyone was an Ancient and the only lesser beings where their creations which have become today's monsters.

To take this one step further, I believe that 12 gods of Eorzea are the 12 followers of Venat who helped summon Hydaelyn (you can count the twelve Ancients in the room with Venat after the Anamnesis Andyer dungeon). And they are the ones responsible for repopulating the star after Hydaelyn sundered it--most likely the only ones left after sacrificing everyone else who would follow Hydaelyn--to specifically be stewards for the shard. Either they created the races that exist today or they are the actual Adam and Eves of the races that exist today. Thus giving them the history and reverence through out the history of the star. So imagine an Ascian looking at these fractured beings taking the legacy of their culture, living cluelessly of their history, even though they are only 1/14 of their potential.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I think what you've misinterpreted here is the disdain Ascians have for people are the fact they have fragmented souls, not some misplaced xenophobia. The people that are "lesser" now are incomplete souls to them and that's what makes them undesirable. I think before the sundering everyone was an Ancient and the only lesser beings where their creations which have become today's monsters.

To take this one step further, I believe that 12 gods of Eorzea are the 12 followers of Venat who helped summon Hydaelyn (you can count the twelve Ancients in the room with Venat after the Anamnesis Andyer dungeon). And they are the ones responsible for repopulating the star after Hydaelyn sundered it--most likely the only ones left after sacrificing everyone else who would follow Hydaelyn--to specifically be stewards for the shard. Either they created the races that exist today or they are the actual Adam and Eves of the races that exist today. Thus giving them the history and reverence through out the history of the star. So imagine an Ascian looking at these fractured beings taking the legacy of their culture, living cluelessly of their history, even though they are only 1/14 of their potential.

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I don't think this is necessarily true. Azem was unaffiliated with the convocation during the split, and had nothing to do with the summoning of Hydaelyn either, yet they have at least 2 gods of the Source named after them. Also, they wandered the world outside of Amaurot helping the natives, which means that there were more than just the classic Amaurotians existing back then, and they needed help from those more powerful. In one case, Azem helped a village of farmers. I find it very unlikely that the villagers were also powerful creation mages.

To add to what Mikko wrote the life Zodiark made after the Ancients sacrificed to him to get the planet popping out life again was atherically less dense than that of the Ancients. So, yes there's a suggestion that they might have been slightly racist. Going back to the whole volcano bit the other 14 had chosen not to save them until our past self was all hey I need to save the grapes is that everyone who had chosen to leave the island had already done so. And that those who still had chosen to stay must have made peace with their maker.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't think this is necessarily true. Azem was unaffiliated with the convocation during the split, and had nothing to do with the summoning of Hydaelyn either, yet they have at least 2 gods of the Source named after them. Also, they wandered the world outside of Amaurot helping the natives, which means that there were more than just the classic Amaurotians existing back then, and they needed help from those more powerful. In one case, Azem helped a village of farmers. I find it very unlikely that the villagers were also powerful creation mages.

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But the name Azem is a title in their society, not a specific name. We know that the past WOL (unless the coming patches have us meet with Venat who may provide more information) didn't align with the Hydaelyn faction. So we easily assume someone took over the role as "Azem" in the WOL's absence. I know its been stated the convocation didn't fill that seat (but those guys are now the Ascians) and I was specifically pointing out that the 12 with Venat are most likely are the 12 gods of Eoreza (you know the other fraction of Ancients). Since Azem is among them we can assume they had a position like this filled by someone else or the WOL eventualy joined their cause, or most likely is just a name associated with the sun and not the former position the WOL had.

Furthermore, the one case you use as an example clearly happens before the summoning of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, when the past WOL is still in the Convocation. The issue comes down to protecting grapes and their is no clear evidence these people did or did not have creation magic. I'd say yes, because they have summoned a primal, which at this point we need to call it what it is, creation magic.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't think this is necessarily true. Azem was unaffiliated with the convocation during the split, and had nothing to do with the summoning of Hydaelyn either, yet they have at least 2 gods of the Source named after them. Also, they wandered the world outside of Amaurot helping the natives, which means that there were more than just the classic Amaurotians existing back then, and they needed help from those more powerful. In one case, Azem helped a village of farmers. I find it very unlikely that the villagers were also powerful creation mages.

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I still don't understand why this Azem = Azeyma thing seems to be regarded as hard canon. It's explicitly stated to not be confirmed.
Azem was a wanderer.
Azeyma is warden of the sun. She is the sister of Menphina who represents the moon.

Yes the Convocation each represented a constellation, but so did the Twelve and they're not the same things, so do AST cards and also the Lucavi. Everything in this game is a damn constellation.

Most likely, it's simply a name that was linked to the motif of the sun. Azem = Sun, and so as sun gods arose in mythology they gravitated to Az- names.
This doesn't contradict the twelve who summoned Hydaelyn as being inspirations of The Twelve, or that Azem was or was not one of those twelve.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

To add to what Mikko wrote the life Zodiark made after the Ancients sacrificed to him to get the planet popping out life again was atherically less dense than that of the Ancients. So, yes there's a suggestion that they might have been slightly racist. Going back to the whole volcano bit the other 14 had chosen not to save them until our past self was all hey I need to save the grapes is that everyone who had chosen to leave the island had already done so. And that those who still had chosen to stay must have made peace with their maker.

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Aetherial density is only diminished after Hydaelyn splits all existence into 14 shards. This was NOT done by Zodiark. So once again there are no signs of racism in their society until their faction loses, Zodiark is sealed in the moon and everyone is only 1/14 what they used to be. And the story about the island is to show the WOL, even in the past, was always wiling to act even when others wouldn't have bothered.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

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They specifically said that the role of Azem was not replaced after they left. I'm not sure what you're getting at here since you mentioned it yourself. No one took that role over. And considering "Venat" is a name and not a role, I don't think Venat's supporters created their own shadow cabinet of people with the same titles as the convocation that summoned Zodiark.

As for the summoning, the story says that Azem went to get the template for that creation magic. There's nothing there that says they had the farmers summon Ifrita for them and it was well within their power to summon Ifrita without anyone else. I still don't believe farmers living in a village have access to creation magic. Why would they continue to be farming and living in an island village under a volcano if they could just create food with magic?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

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I'm not sure what your exact point is or why you italicized "she". If you're struggling over the gender of Azem vs Azeyma, the gender of Azem is based on the gender of your character. In out-of-game media, they get around that by calling them "our friend" or "Azem" and not using gendered pronouns. Also, it's already stated by someone in the game, maybe Uriganer?, that all the myths seem to have a single source. A story told a thousand different times by a thousand different people over the course of the ten thousand years between now and then are going to cause some differences and embellishments, but the fact that this is a game means that that there's probably not any coincidence that variations of the name exist in different cultures associated with a similar concept and that they're associated with constellations.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

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Because post after post we are specifically talking about two different groups of Ancients. One group is the Convocation which supports Zodiark and become today's Ascians. The second group follows Venat and summons Hydaelyn. You have consistently disregarded the distinction between the two groups to discount what we have said. So please go back and read where we talk about the groups as two separate entities. My colleague's reference "she" is a different "she" than the WOL. Please try to keep up.

I'm aware Venat is a title, but we have no other context for Venat other than by the title, so that is name I will reference for now. And it is very apparent they set up a mirror cabinet, because they came from the same culture as the Convocation. They came to Convocation with idea that summoning of Zodiark was a bad idea only because it delays the apocalypse and doesn't stop it. And for a society seeped in debate and discussion they get a hard "no" from the now tempered to Zodiark Convocation. Their entire society's tenants just went out the window so they formed their own cabinet to have the discussion about what to do. And you see their meeting about summoning Hydaelyn at the end of a dungeon.

I find it odd you also don't think the Ancients had farmers. Or that an Ancients with creation magic didn't summon Ifrita. It's pretty clear that summoning primals is creation magic. I don't think they were using Creation magic to make food everyday. They use creation magic to bring it into existence and like every other plant needs to be farmed to make more.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Aetherial density is only diminished after Hydaelyn splits all existence into 14 shards. This was NOT done by Zodiark. So once again there are no signs of racism in their society until their faction loses, Zodiark is sealed in the moon and everyone is only 1/14 what they used to be. And the story about the island is to show the WOL, even in the past, was always wiling to act even when others wouldn't have bothered.

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If the density is the same then why choose the newly minted life? Life that those opposed to the plan of killing it off to try and gain back those who sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark wanted to give the reigns to. Why not use the rest of the old population? Don't forget that we learn that they keep what are basically recipe books for those who have no skill or not a whole lot of skill to use to make anything from a black cloak to stuff like Ifrita and Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Please try to keep up.

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This condescending attitude is uncalled for. Please try to be civil.

That said, I agree that even in a post-scarcity society, there may still be farmers, simply because there's a joy in nurturing life. There's a reason why hobby farmers exist, even when they have easy access to groceries. Sure, some may do it to save a buck or two, but most, I think, do it because they love to grow things, and feel a sense of accomplishment in consuming food they've raised themselves.

An Ancient farmer may be able to conjure up a perfect apple on demand, but that doesn't diminish the achievement in growing a tree from a seed and harvesting the imperfect fruit. The difference between farmers in a post-scarcity society and those in a society like ours is that ours do it to make a living; to survive. Theirs do it for the joy of doing it.

Even if we assert that all of the Ancients were academic types like the ones in Amaurat, I'd imagine there were no shortage of Ancients who specifically study the living things of the world. Acting in the role of farmer would be a great way to study the growth of plants up close and personal.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

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I disregard the second group because we have absolutely nothing to go on that says that all of Venat's followers make their own convocation with the same titles, symbols, etc. At this point it just becomes wild mass guessing. Considering this is also a video game written by people, logic about people's cultures, coincidences, and what may make more sense gets thrown out the window when you have a specific character that is written to be more important.

This post may age like a banana, but I don't think Venat's followers are going to appear much in the narrative as much as Venat herself. I don't think they were as important or even as known to the general populace. It was described that the split souls hazily recalled some of the events of the Sundering and that's where we get the cave paintings in that one dungeon. Operating on that, plus video game logic, makes more sense to me that the Twelve are based on the convocation members and not the followers of Venat.

For example, Emet-Selch's real name is Hades, the Greek god of death, and his sign is Gemini, the twins, and Emet-Selch himself is associated with the netherworld in-universe. Compare that to the Twelve's god of death, Nald'thal, another being with a "double" name, who are also twins. There's too much "coincidence" here for this to be ignored. It makes more sense to me that a society of sundered ancients remembers their previous rulers as gods and over the eons, creates myths about them that change over time and even their genders become variable between cultures. If the Twelve were supposed to be Venat's supporters, then where are the myths about those who went against them? If the sundered ancients would be able to remember Venat's supporters as gods, they would be able to remember the convocation as well, but they're conspicuously absent.

Then we get to Azem. The Azem who was us, and also a member of the convocation was a wanderer who went around helping people. Most real life cultures throughout history have had a sun god devoted to goodness and light who is also a wanderer. Considering we're operating on video game logic that has already referenced real world myth and the game went out of it's way to mention the fact that A. We're Azem, B. Azem might be where Azim and Azeyma come from, and C. The constellation symbol for Azem is the sun, I think it makes more sense that we as our convocation self is the direct inspiration for that in all of the cultures rather than some nobody (according to the narrative at least).

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

For example, Emet-Selch's real name is Hades, the Greek god of death, and his sign is Gemini, the twins, and Emet-Selch himself is associated with the netherworld in-universe. Compare that to the Twelve's god of death, Nald'thal, another being with a "double" name, who are also twins. There's too much "coincidence" here for this to be ignored.

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"Nald'Thal" was named such because "Thal" was considered too short to be the name of a god. "Thal" was named because Koji Fox really liked the sound of the swear "Thal's balls".

Also Nald'Thal is the god of trade, which doesn't really sound like anything Emet-Selch has done. (He's been described as the "empire-builder" among the Ascians, and has himself mentioned a preference for violent conquest over mercantile assimilation.) Nald'Thal in much of Eorzea is considered a single god with two aspects, and the place that considers him two separate (if linked) gods is Ul'dah, who split them into Nald for trade and Thal for the afterlife.

My point is that for all the coincidences, there are also differences, and any hypothesis needs to explain why the differences should be minimized while the coincidences are emphasized. What makes each argument valid or invalid?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

"Nald'Thal" was named such because "Thal" was considered too short to be the name of a god. "Thal" was named because Koji Fox really liked the sound of the swear "Thal's balls".

Also Nald'Thal is the god of trade, which doesn't really sound like anything Emet-Selch has done. (He's been described as the "empire-builder" among the Ascians, and has himself mentioned a preference for violent conquest over mercantile assimilation.) Nald'Thal in much of Eorzea is considered a single god with two aspects, and the place that considers him two separate (if linked) gods is Ul'dah, who split them into Nald for trade and Thal for the afterlife.

My point is that for all the coincidences, there are also differences, and any hypothesis needs to explain why the differences should be minimized while the coincidences are emphasized. What makes each argument valid or invalid?

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I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

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And with this justification, its not a hard leap to assume that 12 followers of Venat are the source of the 12 gods of Eorzea. Realize the convocation are today's Ascians and is a hard sell to say this ancient being want to destroy your world(s) are also the source of all your faith and hopes for that world. Also Hydaelyn won the fight with Zodiark in the past, so those 12 with Venat, after sacrificing everything are the victors and can influence the history and cultures through time because of the knowledge they would have. And you've just justified my opinion with your statement above.

I know there is a possibility I'm wrong but you can't use a anecdotal evidence to discount one point (my point) because it doesn't agree with you and turn around and use the same logic to justify your point against someone else (YianKutku's point). The lore books also don't make great evidence because they are written from the point of view of a character in the world and, since they can't know everything, can be easily retconned.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I was focusing on the fact that Nald'thal is described in-game and listed in the lore book as "the overseer of the Underworld" which is exactly what Hades was. I had already mentioned that the differences can be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap. The coincidences can be explained by the fact that the world is being written by video game writers and not real events, and that the writers can pick and choose things in the game to allude to existing lore.

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Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

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Could be. Gods can and have had radical changes in how they were worshipped and portrayed. Look at Dionysus for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brAr51ip_k

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Originally Posted by Dragonexx

Could be. Gods can and have had radical changes in how they were worshipped and portrayed. Look at Dionysus for example.

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This is kind of a major point when looking at Azem in history context. 5.3 also heavily indicated that our Player Character is far from the first time Azem's shards have been reincarnated. As it seems to be suggest that the first WoL on the First based on the Echo's visions from Elibius was also the same Shard that would eventually become Arbert in the current point in the story. So it's definitely plausible that our shard of Azem also reincarnated on the Source given inspirations for other legends or stories that became. It seems like the Shards of Azem, despite being different people each time, do seem to share some very common characteristics with one another most in the realm of heroics and adventure which are ripe for stories and legnds.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't think this is necessarily true. Azem was unaffiliated with the convocation during the split, and had nothing to do with the summoning of Hydaelyn either, yet they have at least 2 gods of the Source named after them. Also, they wandered the world outside of Amaurot helping the natives, which means that there were more than just the classic Amaurotians existing back then, and they needed help from those more powerful. In one case, Azem helped a village of farmers. I find it very unlikely that the villagers were also powerful creation mages.

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I really wonder if those living that way (like the farmers Azem saved) were the other races and that they did not soley come from Zodiark. Since they could not help themselves and since Amaurot had things in place to help those less blessed with the creation magic (since they gave us those crystals after the side quest) I guess there must have been normal people too and Amaurot was only the place for all those that are truly gifted in magic. Seemingly there are two NPCs that got accepted into living there shortly before the end of the world. If that is true then it would make it even worse that the people of Amaurot would sit by and only discuss about possible plans to stop the sound...they sit by watching everything else being destroyed while they only do something when it reached them. No wonder that Azem who seemingly had a heart for the normal people and their problems did not agree with them anymore at the end.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

If the density is the same then why choose the newly minted life? Life that those opposed to the plan of killing it off to try and gain back those who sacrificed themselves to summon Zodiark wanted to give the reigns to. Why not use the rest of the old population? Don't forget that we learn that they keep what are basically recipe books for those who have no skill or not a whole lot of skill to use to make anything from a black cloak to stuff like Ifrita and Phoenix.

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Because with a high chance the only people still being alive were those living in Amaurot. They kinda waited until it reached the city and as we saw and heard in the dungoen the whole world was then collapsing under calamities. Why would they sacrifice those few remaining people of their city if they could just use new life which might either be of old souls or completely new ones. (But still not sundered) So yes they cared more about the people of their city than anyone else. I mean the Ascians plan bascially is that they want to rejoin everything which would make the survivors and anyone newborn on the source a being with a complete soul. (Including old ancient souls too) And yet they still planned to use those to bring the ones back that they had sacrificed first.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I really wonder if those living that way (like the farmers Azem saved) were the other races and that they did not soley come from Zodiark. Since they could not help themselves and since Amaurot had things in place to help those less blessed with the creation magic (since they gave us those crystals after the side quest) I guess there must have been normal people too and Amaurot was only the place for all those that are truly gifted in magic. Seemingly there are two NPCs that got accepted into living there shortly before the end of the world. If that is true then it would make it even worse that the people of Amaurot would sit by and only discuss about possible plans to stop the sound...they sit by watching everything else being destroyed while they only do something when it reached them. No wonder that Azem who seemingly had a heart for the normal people and their problems did not agree with them anymore at the end.

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I just want to highlight what you said here, as this is very similar to what Sharlayan is on the source. Idk if I've mention this in this thread, but I've theorized that Sharlayan is the legacy civilization of Ancients.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

And with this justification, its not a hard leap to assume that 12 followers of Venat are the source of the 12 gods of Eorzea. Realize the convocation are today's Ascians and is a hard sell to say this ancient being want to destroy your world(s) are also the source of all your faith and hopes for that world. Also Hydaelyn won the fight with Zodiark in the past, so those 12 with Venat, after sacrificing everything are the victors and can influence the history and cultures through time because of the knowledge they would have. And you've just justified my opinion with your statement above.

I know there is a possibility I'm wrong but you can't use a anecdotal evidence to discount one point (my point) because it doesn't agree with you and turn around and use the same logic to justify your point against someone else (YianKutku's point). The lore books also don't make great evidence because they are written from the point of view of a character in the world and, since they can't know everything, can be easily retconned.

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If the twelve who followed Venat were more important and became "The Twelve", then why does only Eorzea believe in them? They don't exist in Ilsabard, Othard, or the First. The only belief that transcends religions and geography is Azem. The same symbol that represented them in Amaurot shows up in Meracydia and Eorzea and the name shows up in both Eorzea and Othard. In an interview, it was mentioned that the fact that the same symbol in 2 different places that had no prior contact is significant, along with Azeyma and Azim both being sun gods with similar names being from the same source. Then we have Azem, the wandering Convocation member who made themselves known everywhere. All that, plus what I've said before about this being a video game where the main protagonist is Azem, makes it make more sense that we (the most important one), and by extension the Convocation, are responsible for some of the belief systems of the world that came after.

I'd believe that over Azeyma actually coming from a follower of Venat, and that Venat redid the whole convocation with new people with the same names as the other convocation.

And in regards to the lore books, there's a difference between the writer of the books in-universe getting something incorrect intricate details in Ilsabard versus getting the domain of one of your own gods wrong. On top of that, the fact that they oversee the underworld is mentioned in the character creator.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Would that mean Lahabrea is remembered as Llymlaen? Their names both start with "L", after all, which is certainly a coincidence. Lahabrea has very little to do with oceans and navigation, but that could also be explained in-universe by a ten-thousand year gap.

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Nah, more likely Byregot or Thaliak. But we're in Berserk territory with the ole, "Gaiseric's Empire was destroyed in a single night by 4 or 5 gods that were mad at him." Until we're explicitly shown/told exactly what happened, so much is up for conjecture and speculation that we could go around in circles with our theories.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If the twelve who followed Venat were more important and became "The Twelve", then why does only Eorzea believe in them? They don't exist in Ilsabard, Othard, or the First. The only belief that transcends religions and geography is Azem. The same symbol that represented them in Amaurot shows up in Meracydia and Eorzea and the name shows up in both Eorzea and Othard. In an interview, it was mentioned that the fact that the same symbol in 2 different places that had no prior contact is significant, along with Azeyma and Azim both being sun gods with similar names being from the same source. Then we have Azem, the wandering Convocation member who made themselves known everywhere. All that, plus what I've said before about this being a video game where the main protagonist is Azem, makes it make more sense that we (the most important one), and by extension the Convocation, are responsible for some of the belief systems of the world that came after.

I'd believe that over Azeyma actually coming from a follower of Venat, and that Venat redid the whole convocation with new people with the same names as the other convocation.

And in regards to the lore books, there's a difference between the writer of the books in-universe getting something incorrect intricate details in Ilsabard versus getting the domain of one of your own gods wrong. On top of that, the fact that they oversee the underworld is mentioned in the character creator.

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Before you make hero worship at thing, lets not forget the game hasn't squared the fact that Azem didn't join in the summoning of Hydaelyn and yet thousands of years in the future is Hydaelyn's choice of champion. The possibility exists that Azem joins them after the summoning, which can easily make both of our theories correct. And Azem as a wanderer who goes around the world fixing problems really kind of fits.

Furthermore, my argument with the lore books, in context of the 12, isn't over the domain but the origin. One historian in game's present age would have no way to know or confirm that 12 people from a defunct civilization are the cradle of the civilizations that have come after it. Their contribution to history would be so vast, but the materials to record them so few, they would only be remembered as gods.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Nah, more likely Byregot or Thaliak. But we're in Berserk territory with the ole, "Gaiseric's Empire was destroyed in a single night by 4 or 5 gods that were mad at him." Until we're explicitly shown/told exactly what happened, so much is up for conjecture and speculation that we could go around in circles with our theories.

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Byregot is kinda a stretch, since Lahabread's specialty seems to be Weapons IIRC. Rhalgr makes more sense under this assumption.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Byregot is kinda a stretch, since Lahabread's specialty seems to be Weapons IIRC. Rhalgr makes more sense under this assumption.

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Run Akademia Anyder again.

One thing to consider about the Twelve, is that there's actually thirteen of them. I suspect that this was because there were Thirteen legendary figures, but dividing a year (or anything else, for that matter) into thirteen segments was mighty inconvenient. So over time two of them got paired up and crammed together into "one" deity, the dual-god Nald'Thal.

As for whether the Twelve are based off of the Convocation of Thirteen or off of Venat and her followers, throwing a wrench into BOTH theories, though, is the fact that Azem didn't belong to EITHER group - and yet, Azeyma is one of the Twelve. If we go along with the strong indication that Azeyma = Azim = Azem, then which of the Convocation of Thirteen is being left out, here, to make room for Azem? Which of Venat's crew is being left out, and why (not that we know squat about any of them except Venat)?

I don't think any of the theories we've come up with to explain the Twelve really fit at this point. It's even possible that the Twelve are actual deities, worshiped even by the Ancients back before the End of Days, and that Azem was named after one!

(Also, while Azeyma DOES share sun-related stuff with Azim, I'm not sure that her role as the Warden really fits with the "wandering hero" theme of Azem.)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

One thing to consider about the Twelve, is that there's actually thirteen of them. I suspect that this was because there were Thirteen legendary figures, but dividing a year (or anything else, for that matter) into thirteen segments was mighty inconvenient. So over time two of them got paired up and crammed together into "one" deity, the dual-god Nald'Thal.

As for whether the Twelve are based off of the Convocation of Thirteen or off of Venat and her followers, throwing a wrench into BOTH theories, though, is the fact that Azem didn't belong to EITHER group - and yet, Azeyma is one of the Twelve. If we go along with the strong indication that Azeyma = Azim = Azem, then which of the Convocation of Thirteen is being left out, here, to make room for Azem? Which of Venat's crew is being left out, and why (not that we know squat about any of them except Venat)?

I don't think any of the theories we've come up with to explain the Twelve really fit at this point. It's even possible that the Twelve are actual deities, worshiped even by the Ancients back before the End of Days, and that Azem was named after one!

(Also, while Azeyma DOES share sun-related stuff with Azim, I'm not sure that her role as the Warden really fits with the "wandering hero" theme of Azem.)

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My point was that the Convocation had 14 members including Azem until the "Final Days of Amaurot", however long a period of time that was. We don't really know the period of time Venat and crew were doing their contrarian thing and how known to the general populace they were, since Emet-Selch didn't even mention them before. They also only had 13 including Venat and they tried to get Azem to join them and failed, so would they even have had a new Azem? If so, then what other seat was left out if they were recreating the same roles as the Convocation?

I mentioned Azem's wanderings because they're the one who spawned religions in multiple regions. If we go by what Emet-Selch said about the sundered people only half-remembering the time before, then it stands to reason that the one Convocation member who went around the world helping people and making themselves known would stand out more in their memories than the others who just sat around Amaurot, which conveniently happens to be off the coast of Eorzea, the only region that believes in the Twelve. I don't think the sundered would remember specifics about Azem leaving the Convocation at the very end if they don't even remember that Hydaelyn and Zodiark exist, with neither showing up in any records or religions until Hydaelyn as the Mothercrystal and a being with a will is theorized by the Sharlayans and proven by those with the Echo. And I doubt the Twelve are real gods, considering how we have no proof to suggest that and the Ascians even tried getting the Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr as a primal.