Ishgard Restoration phase 3 feedback thread

I really don't get the issues. It's a competition. Some people win, others lose. You don't die if you lose. And it's not the end of the world if you don't get the fancy title. O wanted to get one too, but i didnt have the time for that so... I didnt get It. Simple

Sorry in advance for a longer post, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts on this after competing in the Ishgard rankings for the first time this season:

- Ishgard ranking really comes down to time more than skill. Of course, MMORPGs in general are largely about time commitment more than skill in many cases, but when we're talking about the highest-end content (e.g., the ultimate fights for DoM/DoW classes or Feast ranking seasons for PvP), they are usually skill based, although you obviously need time to hone those skills. In light of that, it is a bit disappointing that to get the "Saint of the Firmament" title, which is effectively the "end game" content for DoH/DoL classes, you really just need to have a ton of time to devote to this. If the quarantine wasn't still ongoing and work from home a thing, there's no way we would've been able to put in the hours we did. As others have said, it would be nice if there were a different way to conduct the rankings that doesn't (for the most part) result in "more time = higher rank" regardless of skill. I'm not sure how they could fix this, but perhaps having crafts with ridiculously high quality caps that are impossible to achieve would allow for players to rely more on skills; e.g., they would receive an exponentially greater number of Skyward points for higher-collectability crafts. Adding in new Conditions may also help with this by increasing the complexity of the crafts. For DoL, it would be nice if they also based points off of collectible turn-ins and had you use your collectability-increasing skills so that gathering in Diadem for rankings wouldn't be such a mindless task. Perhaps they could even add new mechanics (conditions, etc.) to the gathering process to make it more skill based. I did DoH because, even though it was extremely repetitive, it was at least more engaging than DoL.

- I wish they didn't tie the materials for the expert recipes to Diadem. Unless you had someone feeding you or had a lot of time to server hop and go check prices, it could be pretty expensive to get the materials you need. Of course, you may get some of that money back by selling the items you buy with Skybuilder Scrips or Kupo of Fortune prizes, but it is still a bit annoying. It would be nice if the expert recipe materials were sold by a vendor much like the items for the weekly collectible turn-ins are. That would make the competition much fairer for DoH classes because it would be more about how well can you craft instead of how well can you source items. If, as I suggested above, the gathering classes also were changed for the purposes of Ishgard ranking so that they too must turn in collectible stuff, that would resolve the issue of "what will the DoL classes do with the green materials they gather?" If DoL classes also get to turn in collectibles, perhaps even they could participate in Kupo of Fortune and get those rewards, which are currently exclusive to DoH classes.

Man posts are really limited in terms of post length here... some more thoughts:

- The length of the tournament (10 days) isn't the problem. The problem is that, to be guaranteed a top spot, you have to try to keep up with folks who are going ham. I did that this time and it was really stressful / deprived me of a lot of sleep during the past 10 days. Implementing some of the aforementioned measure would probably help remedy this by limiting the number of hours that someone can be accumulating points per day and would make it a more skill-based tournament (instead of a time-based tournament).

- I do not think that hoarding is a "problem." This is a competition - you wouldn't get upset at someone beating you in the Feast just because they were using a strategy that is to their advantage. The same thing goes here. The fact that SE doesn't show the amount of points increased at the end of the ranking season may indicate that they are tacitly approving of this strategy (and trying to protect the folks that stockpiled from having this announced at the end). Also, people hoarding does not affect you at all. It does not prevent you from crafting more crafts. You are also able to hoard too if you want. It may cause the Firmament FATEs to pop at weird times, but those often pop at weird times anyway. So long as SE allows hoarding, I don't think it's an issue. I do agree that if the collectibles had a "timer" or something so that they would expire after a day or so, or if the points were counted towards your score as soon as you completed the craft, that would be nice and would also largely prevent this sort of an issue.

- I do not think that it is an issue that folks who already have the title are able to compete for it again, or that people are able to try to rank on multiple classes during a given ranking season. Perhaps they could resolve this issue by limiting the number of turn-ins you can do a day or something like that (which would also help resolve the problem with "more time = higher rank" instead of skill issue). In any event, if you lose to someone who is ranking on multiple classes, it either means that they are putting in more hours than you or they are crafting more efficiently than you.

- I am personally very sad that they decided to go with "Saint of the Firmament" again instead of "Saint Ascendant."

- I think that the title should be unique per season, just like mounts in the Feast are unique per season.

I managed to place 4th on BSM.

So at first I didn't think there was anyway there could be a bot for expert crafts but I have seen some screenshots and stories indicating there likely was a bot which is pretty messed up. Honestly, I have no faith whatsoever that SE will start doing something about the botting at this point when they've maintained such a lackadaisical attitude about crafter/gatherer/fate type bots since even back in ARR.

For me the most forked up thing about rankings is that people can place in the top 12 in more than one job. You can only earn the title of Saint/Achieve once so every subsequent crafter some one places in is a rewardless spot that could have gone to some one else. If some one is placing in multiple jobs I think the 13th+ ranked person should aslo get the title and achievement. But mostly I think that you should have to choose which crafter you're going to try to place in up front and then you're locked in to that for the duration of the ranking season.

Overall this was a miserable experience and I don't think the title/achieve is reward enough for the time spent but I gave up during the first rankings and regretted it so I knew I'd regret it even more this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

I felt bad for you Tymora. Two snipes did you in, the largest was the 740K one out of nowhere. The other 310K one was "expected", having seen how they scored last season.

---

The 300k snipe fella did the same thing in 2 crafts...so 600k at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoH

-snip-

---

what freaking skill are you talking about? The skill of searching in Google the best Crafting rotation and the best melds? Unlike Extreme/Savage/Ultimate, you aren't avoiding AoEs, you aren't dealing with status effects and long ass descriptions, you aren't dealing with insta-kill mechanics, or any kind of mechanic at all. Crafting and Gathering are all about pressing buttons and putting materia in your gear. That's It.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lolicon09

I really don't get the issues. It's a competition. Some people win, others lose. You don't die if you lose. And it's not the end of the world if you don't get the fancy title. O wanted to get one too, but i didnt have the time for that so... I didnt get It. Simple

---

Nope. But you'll always live with the fact you missed the achievements you can never ever get again as long as you play the game.
It's a completionist thing.

Same deal when 1.0 ended. Achievements and titles that can't be gotten again. Not the end of the world but a sore point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tymora

Nope. But you'll always live with the fact you missed the achievements you can never ever get again as long as you play the game.
It's a completionist thing.

Same deal when 1.0 ended. Achievements and titles that can't be gotten again. Not the end of the world but a sore point.

---

How? Because you cannot brag about It? I mean, that's literally the only thing you can do with titles. Hardly something to get sad about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lolicon09

what freaking skill are you talking about? The skill of searching in Google the best Crafting rotation and the best melds? Unlike Extreme/Savage/Ultimate, you aren't avoiding AoEs, you aren't dealing with status effects and long ass descriptions, you aren't dealing with insta-kill mechanics, or any kind of mechanic at all. Crafting and Gathering are all about pressing buttons and putting materia in your gear. That's It.

---

I wouldn’t really call doing DoM/DoW content in this game skill for the most part, either (except perhaps PvP). It’s the same thing for most people - go find some guide and figure out how to do it. Execution for most battle content in this game is wrote memorization of knowing where to stand and which buttons to press.

Anyway, you missed the point of my post entirely. I literally said that it’s disappointing that the high-end crafter / gatherer stuff is more about time than it is skill. There is still *some* skill involved for crafters because, even after looking at recommended rotations, some folks can churn out only 5k points per hour, whereas others can do upwards of 30k. It requires some thinking / math, so I would consider that “skill.” As I mentioned, I just wish that there were more conditions so that it would require even more thinking. My issue with DoL is that it doesn’t require much thinking at all once you figure out the optimal routes, and so it’s not engaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tymora

The 300k snipe fella did the same thing in 2 crafts...so 600k at least.

---

That player was predictable. They ranked in BSM, ARM and fell just short of LTW and CUL last season. This season they got CRP, WVR, and fell just short of LTW and ALC. Not turning anything in on days 5 and 6 was a bit of a tell that hoarding was happening. Their scores have been just over 500 each time for their wins, I suspect they're going for the mount and the competition is an added bonus. That 740K one was entirely a blind side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lolicon09

I really don't get the issues. It's a competition. Some people win, others lose. You don't die if you lose. And it's not the end of the world if you don't get the fancy title. O wanted to get one too, but i didnt have the time for that so... I didnt get It. Simple

---

There is a difference between knowing you won't get the title/achievement and having your hopes completely crushed.

As someone who booted the former rank 12 on spriggan blacksmith by going ham the last day I can tell you it was so unfair for him and he probably went bed thinking about its rank 12 and title excited like it was christmas only to discover he was now rank 13 and will be rewarded the same as the guy who handed up 2 rank 1 non expert craft.

Now I did not hoarded or planned to use a strategy to get to the top and actually I wasn't expecting to be in even when spriggan entry was so low (77k for the rank 12 on blacksmith) but while the former rank 12 was crafting I was busy making gils so I could meld and optimize my score and also buy mats instead of farming them and in the end I kinda ended up crafting the last day but this is where it is a bit wrong...

So like I said I didn't expect to get a ranking but after crafting here and there I reached 50k point and at this point the last update was 54k for rank 12 saying he got 16k points more than last update. So when I reached the 50k I had now a chance for a ranking so I continued to craft but It's even worst because I could check if he was online and playing blacksmith and know I had to keep crafting but he couldn't do the same with me.

Now would I have been able to craft from the very beginning he would have still lose anyway however he probably would have pushed a little more and get rank 12. The poor guy is literally 2 k behind the rank 12 and the worst part is the rank 12 is already on the top 12 on an other crafter.

Honestly I feel bad for that guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

There is a difference between knowing you won't get the title/achievement and having your hopes completely crushed.

As someone who booted the former rank 12 on spriggan blacksmith by going ham the last day I can tell you it was so unfair for him and he probably went bed thinking about its rank 12 and title excited like it was christmas only to discover he was now rank 13 and will be rewarded the same as the guy who handed up 2 rank 1 non expert craft.

Now I did not hoarded or planned to use a strategy to get to the top and actually I wasn't expecting to be in even when spriggan entry was so low (77k for the rank 12 on blacksmith) but while the former rank 12 was crafting I was busy making gils so I could meld and optimize my score and also buy mats instead of farming them and in the end I kinda ended up crafting the last day but this is where it is a bit wrong...

So like I said I didn't expect to get a ranking but after crafting here and there I reached 50k point and at this point the last update was 54k for rank 12 saying he got 16k points more than last update. So when I reached the 50k I had now a chance for a ranking so I continued to craft but It's even worst because I could check if he was online and playing blacksmith and know I had to keep crafting but he couldn't do the same with me.

Now would I have been able to craft from the very beginning he would have still lose anyway however he probably would have pushed a little more and get rank 12. The poor guy is literally 2 k behind the rank 12 and the worst part is the rank 12 is already on the top 12 on an other crafter.

Honestly I feel bad for that guy.

---

Its all part of competitve play ones spot in the ranking is not secure until the competition is officially over. Does not matter if you are rank 1 or rank 130 your rank is on the line until the competition ends.

Ranked 2nd on GSM for my server. Will say upfront that this event was fun but the way it was handled was terrible. 10 days of having to craft non-stop for a title is a poor way to design content. I would recommend a few things for crafting at least:

- Split the seasons up into smaller periods of time such as 2-3 days in total at a time. Although this may still seem a long period of time to some it is nothing compared to spending over a week ignoring your relatives and friends and having to tell them you're busy.
- Have the items expire 24 hours after they are crafted. This limits the chance people will hoard and dump items last day. It is FAR better for players to know they didn't stand a chance early on than to have hope and get crushed on the last day.
- Limit the amount of items that can be turned in each day limited to a certain amount. E.g. maximum of 50, this would then require players to get higher quality average compared to being able to spam 100s of tier 1 expert crafts.
- Change the item that needs to be crafted for each class each day of the season. For both lore reasons and for practical reasons it makes sense. It would help with point number 2. What are Ishgardian's going to do with thousands of benches / doors etc when they only have a few dozen houses being built at best?
- Add more rewards in for the top 5. Currently rank 1-5 receive the same rewards as rank 6-12. I believe the additional effort should be rewarded with something on top of the title whether it be something like Craftman's Competence VIII X 25 or a new mount.
- Add more rewards for the top 50. Currently ranks 13-50 receive the same rewards as rank 51-100. Perhaps a reward on top of the Beatus of the Firmament title such as Craftman's Competence VII X 25 or replace the rewards from 1-12 here and make the reward for 1-12 more interesting.
- Supply the crafting materials for free. This might be an unpopular opinion but as someone who could afford to buy enough mats for the season and saw many who couldn't towards the end of the season I believe the mats should be given out for free to encourage competition between all who take up the challenge of expert crafting. This might make profits not possible for gatherers but then again its strange in the first place that they are able to sell the items that were gathered for Ishgard and still get skyward points for them.

In addition to some of the other suggestions already provided I am hopeful next season will be more interesting and healthy for us to take part in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

There is a difference between knowing you won't get the title/achievement and having your hopes completely crushed.

As someone who booted the former rank 12 on spriggan blacksmith by going ham the last day I can tell you it was so unfair for him and he probably went bed thinking about its rank 12 and title excited like it was christmas only to discover he was now rank 13 and will be rewarded the same as the guy who handed up 2 rank 1 non expert craft.

Now I did not hoarded or planned to use a strategy to get to the top and actually I wasn't expecting to be in even when spriggan entry was so low (77k for the rank 12 on blacksmith) but while the former rank 12 was crafting I was busy making gils so I could meld and optimize my score and also buy mats instead of farming them and in the end I kinda ended up crafting the last day but this is where it is a bit wrong...

So like I said I didn't expect to get a ranking but after crafting here and there I reached 50k point and at this point the last update was 54k for rank 12 saying he got 16k points more than last update. So when I reached the 50k I had now a chance for a ranking so I continued to craft but It's even worst because I could check if he was online and playing blacksmith and know I had to keep crafting but he couldn't do the same with me.

Now would I have been able to craft from the very beginning he would have still lose anyway however he probably would have pushed a little more and get rank 12. The poor guy is literally 2 k behind the rank 12 and the worst part is the rank 12 is already on the top 12 on an other crafter.

Honestly I feel bad for that guy.

---

Well not quite, he still gets the lesser title for those ranked 13-100, still I guess it must suck for him but if he was rank 12 he should know there was a pretty good chance he was going to get kicked out the top 12 on the last day.

Gathering's a bit of a mess.

There's no skill component in MIN/BOT - it comes down to having the stats to get all the node bonuses plus time to keep gathering without distractions.

FSH does have a bit of a skill component in knowing tug times and when to risk GP but it's still RNG-centric. It's hard to display a skill component when it really comes down to "did I get lucky?".

I don't have any effective suggestions for fixing either. It would be nice if something was down so gathering contributed directly to Restoration progress instead of just being a way to feed the crafters who are powering that progress.

For crafting, it's pretty sad to see someone miss out on a Saint title in one class with a score of 400,000 when someone in another class manages to get it with only 150,000.

It's likewise sad to see players able to get into the top 12 making nothing but normal level 80 recipes and never touching Expert just because they've got other players feeding them materials so they can sit and pump out the normal recipes 10-12 hours a day using a 12 step macro. There's no skill in doing that.

If this is supposed to be a competition for showing off one's skill, turn it into a skill based competition instead of a "who's got the most free time" competition.

1 - Eliminate the class categories. There are no longer actions unique to any crafting classes so keeping them separate makes no sense. Change rewards to top 100 for Saint and top 1000 for Beatus among all crafters.

2 - Create a single recipe (available in all classes) separate from the other Expert recipes with a very high maximum Collectable rating that should be unattainable (my suggestion would be 50,000 compared to the current 8,240) and using a single unique material similar to the materials we purchase to make collectables for Custom Deliveries.

Have players talk to Potkin or another NPC to sign up to compete. They receive 100 of the unique material when they sign up.

Players have until the end of the 10 day period to turn in their 100 attempts. They can use as much of the 10 day period as they want to practice using Trial Synthesis before starting their genuine attempts. This removes pressure for players to be constantly crafting and those who only have a few hours a day aren't placed at a severe disadvantage compared to those who can spend all their waking hours crafting (though there's still some with less time available to practice).

Score is the sum of the Collectability rating on the items turned in instead of some random score assignment based on that rating. That encourages crafters to push their CP usage and Durability to maximum effect instead of finishing the craft with CP and Durability to spare. It also discourages abandoning attempts where RNG was bad at the start because even a low rating will add to total score. The number of attempts should offset any very high RNG outliers.

******

Outside of the competition, increase scrip rewards and Ishgard Restoration contribution points for Expert so the amount earned per hour is at least comparable to if not better than what you'd get from turning in level 70 or 80 recipe collectables. The difference is so noticeable right now that if you're trying to earn scrip or help your world's progress, Expert is the worst option to pick.

Expert - can reliably craft 25-30 an hour dependent on RNG. At max rating, that's 2,400 scrip and 10,860 Restoration points.

Level 80 - can macro craft 100 an hour. At max rating, that's 6300 scrip and 12,400 Restoration points.

Level 70 - can 2 step (Trained Eye-Groundwork) 360 an hour. At max rating, that's 7920 scrip and 30,960 Restoration points.

That's a good example of why many crafters consider Expert dead. Unless the player wants the Pteranodon mount, the reward for the time investment is less than lower level crafting.

Also, promote the Phase achievements for Expert. It's bizarre seeing so many players coming into the forums saying the titles for the leaderboard rankings should be based on a reaching a threshold instead of ranking when we've already got separate achievements and titles available for passing thresholds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lolicon09

I really don't get the issues. It's a competition. Some people win, others lose. You don't die if you lose. And it's not the end of the world if you don't get the fancy title. O wanted to get one too, but i didnt have the time for that so... I didnt get It. Simple

---

It's about feedback. This is new content, the devs will be interested in hearing what we think about it. If many of us dislike it, it's good to explain why and what we feel would improve the experience for us. I have the title myself, so I "won" as you put it, but there's a lot I'd like to see changed with the system.

Jojoya's post above sums everything up perfectly. Gathering is simply a competition in surviving sleep deprivation. Crafting should indeed have been limited turn-in's of an item with an unattainable collectibility cap. The only small tweak I'd make there is giving players 105-110 of the mat for 100 turn-ins, to give a little leeway for unavoidable disconnects or extremely bad rng.

I'd like to see them do more with Expert Crafts, it's enjoyable in itself, it's just not presented in a particularly enjoyable or rewarding format so far.

All these people complaining about hoarding -- it's a valid tactic. There's no legitimate reason to have turn-ins expire, this works fine just the way it is. It's your own fault for letting your guard down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallis

All these people complaining about hoarding -- it's a valid tactic. There's no legitimate reason to have turn-ins expire, this works fine just the way it is. It's your own fault for letting your guard down.

---

As people have mentioned, it defeats the purpose of even displaying the scores before the end of the ranking period.

As far as ranking competitions go, this is probably the only instance I've seen where people are allowed to "store" points for the sake of deceiving others into thinking they don't have competition.

I think there are a lot of things about the event which are unhealthy or incentivize and encourage self-destructive behavior. Above all else I hope they can somehow address that so that some people don't spend all day on it or let their personal life or career suffer. Maybe a personal timer that limits activities to 8 hours a day.

I feel that preparation outside of the event plays a far bigger role than either time or skill. Most people don't start the event on equal footing so ranking is a little odd because it obscures those differences in situations. I think it's better to think of it as a personal challenge.

To keep interest in the restoration proper I think it would be nicer if they had repeat competitions from previous seasons separated by a few weeks. That way you can also get the old Firmament title and the new but cancelled Ascendant title.

Personally I prefer the Ascendant title more and I feel that it's a shame it was changed to the old one.

Most of all I hope everyone had fun and aren't too hard on themselves or on others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Level 80 - can macro craft 100 an hour. At max rating, that's 6300 scrip and 12,400 Restoration points.

Level 70 - can 2 step (Trained Eye-Groundwork) 360 an hour. At max rating, that's 7920 scrip and 30,960 Restoration points.

That's a good example of why many crafters consider Expert dead. Unless the player wants the Pteranodon mount, the reward for the time investment is less than lower level crafting.

Also, promote the Phase achievements for Expert. It's bizarre seeing so many players coming into the forums saying the titles for the leaderboard rankings should be based on a reaching a threshold instead of ranking when we've already got separate achievements and titles available for passing thresholds.

---

How do you get those value tho?
I just tried while max rank level 80 said 124 points I just received 30 points toward my score and the level 70 while said 85 points didn't give me any point.

My guess is a the 124 points/85 points counts towards the restoration gauge (the one unlocking the fate once it's full) and the skyward points is for your personal score.

Also for the ranking instead of reaching a threshold the issue is some people on some worlds won't get the title with 400k while I got it on Spriggan for like a bit more than 4 times less points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

As people have mentioned, it defeats the purpose of even displaying the scores before the end of the ranking period.

As far as ranking competitions go, this is probably the only instance I've seen where people are allowed to "store" points for the sake of deceiving others into thinking they don't have competition.

---

It's pretty rare to see competitions that last for 230+ consecutive hours with no limits on attempts.

Displaying the scores still serves the purpose of motivating people if they want to be on top. They know the minimum that will be required to pass the scores displayed but they'll still need to guess about what hasn't been turned in. It means people should be focused on putting in their best possible effort instead of the minimum effort they think will be needed to rank.

Sandbagging is a valid strategy in many competitions. It only becomes a problem here because of storage access. Some players only have access to 2 retainers for 350 additional storage slots. Other players have access to 10 retainers with 1750 storage slots because they pay additional real money every month. If everyone had the same access without paying more money, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Instead of adding some sort of decay system that could be difficult to program and potentially error prone, it would probably be easier to prevent players from storing collectables anywhere but in their immediate inventory (no retainers, no chocobo saddlebag, already unable to store in FC company chests). That way players are forced to turn items in before they can continue crafting. There could still be some sandbagging going on but other competitors could calculate the maximum potential, making it less valuable as a strategy especially since everyone would be able to have the same amount stored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Outside of the competition, increase scrip rewards and Ishgard Restoration contribution points for Expert so the amount earned per hour is at least comparable to if not better than what you'd get from turning in level 70 or 80 recipe collectables. The difference is so noticeable right now that if you're trying to earn scrip or help your world's progress, Expert is the worst option to pick.

Expert - can reliably craft 25-30 an hour dependent on RNG. At max rating, that's 2,400 scrip and 10,860 Restoration points.

Level 80 - can macro craft 100 an hour. At max rating, that's 6300 scrip and 12,400 Restoration points.

Level 70 - can 2 step (Trained Eye-Groundwork) 360 an hour. At max rating, that's 7920 scrip and 30,960 Restoration points.

That's a good example of why many crafters consider Experts dead. Unless the player wants the Pteranodon mount, the reward for the time investment is less than lower level crafting.

---

I agree on the having an unattainably high quality/collectability cap (that's was I also promoted on the previous page), but I think the part about crafters considering Expert Recipes dead is unfounded. I don't think that anyone thinks that. A max quality level 80 craft gives only 30 Skyward Points. You can craft these in 10 steps with ilvl 490 gear, but that's still 30 seconds per craft. Assuming 0 seconds going in and out of crafts, that's 2 level 80 crafts per minute, max. That would be 60 points per minute. Even if you did this for 24 hours a day during all 10 days of the competition (which would obviously not be possible unless someone was botting, but for the sake of an example I'm using these extreme numbers), that would still amount to only 864,000 points. That would not be enough to get even 13th place on Tonberry CUL or ALC. It may be enough points to rank on many of the servers, but it is not a difficult score to beat if you try with Expert Recipes, which give 1262 points if max quality; folks were getting upwards of 30,000 Skyward Points per hour with Expert Recipes this season. Also, as Kamome-chan mentioned, the level 70 crafts do not even give any Skyward Points, so it's either level 80 crafts or Expert Recipes. I was able to achieve the highest score on any class on my server (Gilgamesh) this time around and did so with Expert Recipes, and I'm positive that the folks who got higher scores on the other servers were also doing Expert Recipes instead of level 80 crafts (although we may craft a few level 80 crafts to fine-tune our scores to a nice, even number at the end of a day).

Edit: I think I misunderstood what you meant by Restoration Points (I'm not even sure where it tells you what those are). I guess if you really care about your server's progress then yeah, that may be the case, but I think most folks care more about their own achievements and are thus going for the 500k achievement for the "Hand of the Creator" title and, eventually, the 500k DoH+DoL mount. I knocked out most of my 500k DoH achievements between 5.21 and 5.31 and did so with Expert Recipes as it's much faster that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallis

All these people complaining about hoarding -- it's a valid tactic. There's no legitimate reason to have turn-ins expire, this works fine just the way it is. It's your own fault for letting your guard down.

---

No it's bad because people invest time and effort for the title and get the same title has the guy who got 100 points because people purposely deceive others.

Imagine it is the last day you're rank 12, you have a lot more points than rank 13 and you craft some expert to get even more points until the season ends.

You go to bed and then you wake up the next day, you can't wait to see the score and your name in the saint of the firmament top 12.

Then you are now rank 13 because someone literally came out of nowhere because he tried to deceive you by holding on his crafts.

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

How do you get those value tho?
I just tried while max rank level 80 said 124 points I just received 30 points toward my score and the level 70 while said 85 points didn't give me any point.

My guess is a the 124 points/85 points counts towards the restoration gauge (the one unlocking the fate once it's full) and the skyward points is for your personal score.

Also for the ranking instead of reaching a threshold the issue is some people on some worlds won't get the title with 400k while I got it on Spriggan for like a bit more than 4 times less points.

---

We're getting 3 different "rewards" when we turn in. There's scrip, there's Skyward Points (personal progress), and there are contribution points toward the Restoration (world progress).

The scrip and Skyward points are clearly displayed on Potkin and in our chat logs when we turn a collectable in. The contribution points toward the Restoration are flashed as separate text in the middle of our screen.

The number of items crafted per hour can be easily figured from experience. For the level 80 crafts, the better your gear the shorter the macro needed but someone with the gear to do Expert reliably should be able to create a macro for the level 80 recipes that has about a 30 second run time. Add in a couple seconds for the crafting log window reappear so Synthesis can be started again plus a couple more to turn in at Potkin.

As for being able to get Saint on some worlds easier than others, we're only competing against others on our own home worlds. World choice still comes with advantages and disadvantages depending on whether population is low or high. This is one of the situations where low population can be an advantage because the competitive bar isn't likely to be pushed as high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoH

I agree on the having an unattainably high quality/collectability cap (that's was I also promoted on the previous page), but I think the part about crafters considering Expert Recipes dead is unfounded. I don't think that anyone thinks that. A max quality level 80 craft gives only 30 Skyward Points. You can craft these in 10 steps with ilvl 490 gear, but that's still 30 seconds per craft. Assuming 0 seconds going in and out of crafts, that's 2 level 80 crafts per minute, max. That would be 60 points per minute. Even if you did this for 24 hours a day during all 10 days of the competition (which would obviously not be possible unless someone was botting, but for the sake of an example I'm using these extreme numbers), that would still amount to only 864,000 points. .

---

But your Skyward Points only matter if you care about being on top of the leaderboard rankings and/or you're trying to earn the Skyward Point achievements.

If you don't care about those things, or you've already earned the achievements as some players have, Expert may as well be dead. If you're trying to contribute to your world's Restoration progress, Expert is the worst choice. If you're trying to farm scrip to buy things for yourself, your friends, or to sell on the marketboard, Expert is the worst choice.

I'm not pushing for the more exclusive rewards that others have suggested for Expert in past threads, though certainly those would add to Expert's longevity. I just want it to be equally rewarding based on time investment as the other Ishgard recipes in the long term instead of limiting it to the short term when Skyward Points might have relevance depending on your personal goals. The Skyward Points should feel like the bonus reward for being skilled instead of a consolation prize making up for the lack of other rewards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

snip

---

Sorry for some reason I mistook world progress for the ranking in your world that makes sense now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

1 - Eliminate the class categories. There are no longer actions unique to any crafting classes so keeping them separate makes no sense. Change rewards to top 100 for Saint and top 1000 for Beatus among all crafters.

---

Not a bad idea, except for class-based titles, which to some are significant. I use mine, for example, to give firm backing to my roleplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

2 - Create a single recipe (available in all classes) separate from the other Expert recipes with a very high maximum Collectable rating that should be unattainable (my suggestion would be 50,000 compared to the current 8,240) and using a single unique material similar to the materials we purchase to make collectables for Custom Deliveries.

---

This turns in to a who has the most control, and in a perfect world averages out so that there are ties. Given a sample of 100, sadly it's a who was luckiest with the most control.

Would it surprise you to know that these crafts were much easier and consistent with higher than "The Balance" suggested craftsmanship? That type of understanding and resource usage wouldn't be an option if we're shooting for the highest possible quality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Score is the sum of the Collectability rating on the items turned in instead of some random score assignment based on that rating. That encourages crafters to push their CP usage and Durability to maximum effect instead of finishing the craft with CP and Durability to spare. It also discourages abandoning attempts where RNG was bad at the start because even a low rating will add to total score. The number of attempts should offset any very high RNG outliers.

---

100 simply isn't enough to even out RNG. The rate of getting the top level prize in "Kupo of Fortune", for example is 8%. I have a lifetime score of ~1,000,000 resulting in over 200 attempts at the game. Always picking the option giving the chance at the top tier prize, I've only won 12 times. I should have 16 or more if RNG leveled out. 25% is a pretty big delta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

---

Yep, I will be sore over it for a while...but I accept this as a valid strategy. Annoying but whatever. This is fairly minor compared to other shortcomings.

In general, I think the improvements can largely be split into 3 categories for DoH.

1. Balance out server unfairness
a) Achievements and/or titles by points only
b) Global ranking instead of by server

2. Fix the botting problem or at least make it such that humans can compete with the bots within reasonable limits
a) Limited crafting attempts
b) Daily quotas and caps
c) Proactive, strict policing (e.g. bans, lockouts, challenge questions on randomized UI...etc)


3) Miscellaneous (enhance sportsmanship?)
a) Limit to single competing category
b) Split title and achievements
c) Ranking rewards to not time-limited items/achievements (e.g. Materia, gil...etc)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

No it's bad because people invest time and effort for the title and get the same title has the guy who got 100 points because people purposely deceive others.

Imagine it is the last day you're rank 12, you have a lot more points than rank 13 and you craft some expert to get even more points until the season ends.

You go to bed and then you wake up the next day, you can't wait to see the score and your name in the saint of the firmament top 12.

Then you are now rank 13 because someone literally came out of nowhere because he tried to deceive you by holding on his crafts.

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

---

The competition ends at a specific time, not when you go to bed at the last day.

This reaches level of "everyone has to go to bed at the same time I do and stop turning in items, otherwise I'll throw a tantrum"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

Not a bad idea, except for class-based titles, which to some are significant. I use mine, for example, to give firm backing to my roleplay.

---

The Saint and Beatus titles aren't class specific. This change wouldn't impact the class specific achievements and titles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

This turns in to a who has the most control, and in a perfect world averages out so that there are ties. Given a sample of 100, sadly it's a who was luckiest with the most control.

---

SE stated that prior to the Restoration's release that Expert recipes and the leaderboards would be designed to favor those who chose to use BIS melds on the crafted gear. Ties would only be likely if players could hit max rating consistently. Increasing max rating from 8,240 to 50,000 should prevent that. It could always be increased to 100,000 instead to make it even less likely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

Would it surprise you to know that these crafts were much easier and consistent with higher than "The Balance" suggested craftsmanship? That type of understanding and resource usage wouldn't be an option if we're shooting for the highest possible quality.

---

I have no idea what The Balance recommended because I don't belong to their Discord. I played around in Teamcraft to see what progress results I would get as my Craftsmanship increased or decreased then adjusted my melds based on that.

Anything that would make it harder to rely on outside sources to tell a player what to do seems like a good thing in this case. It's supposed to be about personal skill, not following a publicly posted template.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

100 simply isn't enough to even out RNG. The rate of getting the top level prize in "Kupo of Fortune", for example is 8%. I have a lifetime score of ~1,000,000 resulting in over 200 attempts at the game. Always picking the option giving the chance at the top tier prize, I've only won 12 times. I should have 16 or more if RNG leveled out. 25% is a pretty big delta.

---

A perfect system that completely eliminates the impact of RNG will never be possible no matter how many attempts are allowed.

I would say using Kupo of Fortune as a comparison point doesn't work that well because the prize result is intended to have a great variance. As far as I can tell, the conditions for Expert all have an equal chance to proc. I might have a bad string of luck on one attempt but I'll get an extremely good string of luck on another.

The goal is to come up with ideas to improve the ranking competition. There's always room for improvement in any ideas. What would you suggest to improve how the ranking competition works or do you like it as is because time investment ends up being the deciding factor?

I see your point now. I don’t think that most folks really care about Restoration Points or the progress of their server as you don’t have much control over that, but I somewhat agree that it is unfortunate that Expert Recipes are not the most efficient way to farm Skybuilder Scrips or Kupo of Fortune attempts. This doesn’t bother me too much, though, because I already had more Skybuilder Scrips and Kupo of Fortune tickets than I knew what to do with by doing Expert Recipes between 5.21 and 5.31. After getting all the items for myself, I ended up buying random dyes, mounts, etc. and made probably around $100 million gil from selling such rewards and items gathered from Diadem before 5.31. By the end of the most recent ranking season, it was more of a bother to have to spend Skybuilder Scrips and Kupo of Fortune tickets than anything and I only did it because it was equally annoying to click the “yes I’m sure” confirmation button that pops up when you’re maxed out.

As for hoarding, it is honestly dumb not to do it if you’re serious about placing into the top 12. I turned in over 1.3 million Skybuilder Points on the last day that I had accumulated over the 10-day period (I went from 696,969 points to 2,000,001 points), but I tried to keep it “fair” for those who wanted a shot at top 12 by at least being middle of the top 12 on my class for several days before the last day (so that me suddenly jumping places wouldn’t displace someone who would otherwise be in the top 12). I have 10 retainers and spent a lot of time before the competition giving non-market-prohibited items to alts so that I would have enough room to stockpile on 8 of my 10 retainers. I don’t feel bad for the folks that I beat because they could’ve been crafting/turning in or stockpiling just as much stuff themselves. Some did stockpile and turned in a lot on the last day on my class/server, but I had just stockpiled more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

The goal is to come up with ideas to improve the ranking competition. There's always room for improvement in any ideas. What would you suggest to improve how the ranking competition works or do you like it as is because time investment ends up being the deciding factor?

---

I do think that time invested should be a factor, but not the sole determination. I don't see limiting the number of crafts as a valid solution, or at least entirely limiting them. Count the first 100 at full, perhaps, then reduce in tiered steps after that. The motivation to grind goes way down based off the diminished return, it also helps someone who may have had a bad RNG day.

What is the intended involvement? How many crafts are required to push Ishgard along, and what pace does SE want to set? That's where the real math is done, because the competition drives that effort.

Rewarding someone for hard work is equal to the assertion of skill. What you'll see with a hard limit is crafters going all day, stacking up as many as they can get, then going through and picking the best ones. Ishgard won't move through the day, and that's not the objective...is it? Even in the case above of counting the first 100 at full, hundreds will be crafted before any get turned in by the serious players.

For context, I did place in the top 12, and don't consider myself to be one of the ones who gave it an unreasonable amount of time. My personal investment was 3 to 3.5 hours over the course of each day. Spread in 40 minute blocks. That amount of effort, in fairness, seems right to me for "endgame". Folks attempting the Ultimate raids often give it much more time than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

I'm going to split it up into 4 sections, crafting, gathering, diadem and other.

Crafting:
Let's start with the section I didn't directly interact with this ranking period.

Leatherworker, whatever you did to Ltw crafts I don't think you should ever do it that awkward again, this is without a doubt most servers weakest crafter in terms of output, some servers you could be top 100 after a single craft, that is just bad. There will always be the hardest crafter to gets mats for but it seems Ltw ones were just so bad people avoided even trying right the way to the end.

Expert crafts are from my second-hand knowledge were high tuned but once got in the groove relatively easy to do, as I haven't actively tried if other people who are more dedicated crafters could enlighten me it would be much appreciated.

[

---

As far as expert mats they all come from the diadem and they're all just as easy to gather as the rest. The umbral mats being the most limiting factor but there are only 4 umbral mats and 8 crafting classes so 2 classes share mats. LTW shared their umbral mat with ARM. LTW didn't have it harder in terms of mats so not sure why there were lower outputs for LTW vs other classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

I do think that time invested should be a factor, but not the sole determination. I don't see limiting the number of crafts as a valid solution, or at least entirely limiting them. Count the first 100 at full, perhaps, then reduce in tiered steps after that. The motivation to grind goes way down based off the diminished return, it also helps someone who may have had a bad RNG day.

---

This seems to have the opposite effect in my mind. If only the first 100 turn ins count for full credit you're going to spend a ton more time getting the full 8240 collectability for the first 100 turn ins and then turn in the rest. RNG hurts you more with this suggestion since you need 100 perfect crafts to be competitive in a day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zenn

This seems to have the opposite effect in my mind. If only the first 100 turn ins count for full credit you're going to spend a ton more time getting the full 8240 collectability for the first 100 turn ins and then turn in the rest. RNG hurts you more with this suggestion since you need 100 perfect crafts to be competitive in a day.

---

That's the irony of it, isn't it? You're right, and I tilt my hat to it in the paragraph below. In reality, it's kind of moot. Only 500(ish) people in each class even turned in 100 over the course of the event. Myself, on the last day I turned in over 100, an event which happened no other day. I felt the need for extra work given how close the standing were in the middle. I think that size cap limits those who spam low quality work, but that limit, honestly, wouldn't have affected me. Maybe that's a better game there. Sure, count the raw score, but also publish how many were turned in. Perhaps have a quality component, ie. average quality over the event. A second way to win, with minimum turn-in requirements, such as hitting 100 over the event. How many at the top do you think would qualify for both?

I earned my "Weavers of a Feather", 100 expert turn-ins, on 9/13. My closing score on day 5 (the same day) was 117102. All subsequent days were 55K ish points, the last day was double. I likely turned in 110-120 that day. My "Skyward Needle III" came on 9/11, 500K points, 3 days into the event. I ended season 2 with a score of 459K, and was late to the game, not starting until late day 2 this time around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashemmi

I earned my "Weavers of a Feather", 100 expert turn-ins, on 9/13. My closing score on day 5 (the same day) was 117102. All subsequent days were 55K ish points, the last day was double. I likely turned in 110-120 that day. My "Skyward Needle III" came on 9/11, 500K points, 3 days into the event. I ended season 2 with a score of 459K, and was late to the game, not starting until late day 2 this time around.

---

https://i.imgur.com/htnVRwa.gif

Didn't participate in this round, but did rank before.

I do support everyone being given maybe a buff once a day for an hour or two that enables crafting of recipes that give rank score. I'd like expert to be a system outside of just the rankings though. I think people are hesitant to admit this because of how long crafting has just been "hit macro buttons", but it does take some level of skill akin to playing puzzle games or anything about trying to control your luck, & that's fun.

Expert itself: A skill level uptune from P2 would've been nice, but P3 kind of put it into the more rng & time > skill ranges. Some suggested unlimited caps, but given the competition is also an endurance race, I feel like the current crafts are genuinely so punishing that bots gain an advantage by simply not having to deal with the mental impact of it & not having human error. People will just find it less fun and more tiring to constantly lose out to a pass/fail binary (and to lose by even trying puzzle through a shitty craft because of the time inefficiency) rather than "how far can I take this craft with my poor luck". I support absurd caps only if the competition wasn't a 10-day, no limit ordeal. I'm sure it's not too bad with some refining, but when I asked others about their methods, it was still a lot of "know when to cut your losses", which, previous point.

Sandbagging: I don't personally have an issue with the base concept, & I lost 1st to letting my guard down to sandbagging before, even as I expected it. & Even without exact scores, you can still gain info from the daily leaderboard by watching people's rates/comparing their ingame activity vs. just taking the number at face value. However, it is true enough that people with more retainers- a paid feature- have a strategic advantage here, & in the end, I support a timer on turning stuff in for that reason alone.

Botting: Another highly discouraging thing. They've shown no acknowledgement or concern about it. Maybe they think the ranking system isn't worth the time, but it does cut into the fun for a lot of people. Was wrong about this bit.

Is it fun? Expert crafting is a really interesting system, and fun. It's given crafting so much experimenting within the short time of its relevancy. Friendly competition is fun. But for people playing on an online game, who don't see each other face to face, who can barely be certain that someone isn't just a bot, a lot of the sportsmanship that makes competing fun just isn't there; coupled with how punishing and draining the whole ranking system is...?? iunno man. P2 was fun because it was new, people were excited, everyone had to come up with new ideas, and rivals approached each other and motivated each other. That isn't a universal experience though, and the system doesn't support or promote that sort of thing in any way. There's way too much suspicion and fatigue for most people. I just don't think this system is sustainable as "fun" content as time goes on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gourdian

Botting: Another highly discouraging thing. They've shown no acknowledgement or concern about it. Maybe they think the ranking system isn't worth the time, but it does cut into the fun for a lot of people.

---

Botting is highly discouraging but not to name names or witchhunt there have been at least 2 people that I've heard about that were suspended and removed from the rankings. One was a player that responded and said they were playing and not botting and (I think) sent video proof but I don't remember the exact details.

I also agree that expert crafting could be used elsewhere (there are the 500k in each class achievements you can still get outside of rankings though). Would be cool if highest ilvl crafted gear was made with expert crafting rather than a day 1 macro.

Oh I see! Thank you for the correction, I'm honestly disconnected from the wider crafting community and was just watching a few friends go through it, & heard a lot of "we caught this person as red-handed as it gets and nothing happened". But that's good to hear.

Also-- not directed @ you Zenn-- I personally do think there are less bots than people generally think & that a lot of botting accusations fly without much ground. It's just kinda unfortunate that even a single one will cause this suspicion & the subsequent discouragement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zenn

Botting is highly discouraging but not to name names or witchhunt there have been at least 2 people that I've heard about that were suspended and removed from the rankings. One was a player that responded and said they were playing and not botting and (I think) sent video proof but I don't remember the exact details.

---

That implies that they actually do resort to the simple, but effective bot checking method of "send them a tell and see if they respond/ignore you".

Though that just makes me question why bans aren't more common even moreso.

I'd like to hope they're actually making adjustments in the long term and that their increased diligence isn't strictly due to the rankings.

Ranked last season; didn't attempt a great deal to rank this season, barring sating my own curiosity- Seeing if much changed to approach with durability, how I executed my finishers, and just overall playing around whilst I went for one of the achievements associated with finest featherfall.

That being said, as my thoughts were last season, they remain true this season. The idea of expert recipes are really good- But currently, I think they're very, very poorly designed and implemented. Let's see-

First of all the issues players seem to have with hoarding, and the general accusations people have with 'botting' just lead me to believe the whole do as many turn-ins as you like is a poor way of handling these recipes- Just have players allowed a finite # of attempts throughout the entire ranking season (Something like 20-30 per day, or 200-300 for the ranking period). Now RNG and all factors heavily into this but what I would suggest, is slightly buffing centered condition (Make it equivalent to the good ol' Steady Hand II at the least!!!)- Pliant should not be 50%, but rather I think a 30% reduction to CP cost is more than adequate, and then buff the overall probability of the 3 material conditions alongside implement more conditions- Let's say the opposite of these; something that decreases success rate; increases the CP cost, and doubles the durability cost- Make it so that strategic use of Careful Observation amounts to a lot more beyond the use of baiting for a good condition on Byregot's Blessing- And for heaven's sake make it so that it actually changes the material condition, and cannot be used consecutively on a single step. Alongside this make Normal conditions feel more like a rare blessing than anything else. - Currently, everything in these rankings contradicts the approach they've aimed for in many other areas of the game. I can at least say beyond the 'discovery' phase of actually learning these recipes back in last season I found them overall boring and nothing but a real, real chore. They weren't fun, especially so with there being no objective difference between someone who ranks 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, or the bare minimal 12th place.

Further, I would like the idea of stat syncing. Giving a debuff similar to that of what is found in the Ixali quests to set your stats for the recipe- That way everyone has an equal chance to rank irrespective of how hard their pockets are lined, or whether they went through the torture of grinding 100k yellow, and white scrips. - I would like to emphasize I do not do this out of feeling spoilt or lazy, but I do think players on smaller, and less competitive servers should have a lot more competition. I can probably count the number of people on my fingers that are melded sufficiently enough to reliably push out tier 3 (without requiring the blessing of pliant on Manipulation, or Patient Touch hitting on centered) on Spriggan.

Well after three phases Ishgard is still as boring as it started. I honestly hoped that they would change it up at least (like they did with Eureka even if I still dont like that) but no its the same just with different items. In the end its nothing but a rowena turn in with some fates if the phases are still active and some points for the short time that rankings are done.

Give me the personal progress like they did with Doma (they can put people in different instances depending on their progress since we had that with the stormblood MSQ) and personal fates after I have given them enough turn ins so I get the feeling that I do them. You could even include some NPCs that are helping to give the feeling like its something done in a group. (While being able to see it all instead of it being so crowded that not even the items pop up..) Everything that people do could still count towards the server wide points which are then the gateways to the next round. (So if you are faster than the server you will hit a stop until the server catches up. In that time you are able to give them more items which will then help to get the goal faster)

With this everyone is able to do it in their own time and see the changes. And you could always make the new player housing zone a different one so that even if someone had not done the quests they could still at least go to the housing zone..heck you could make it so that someone that did not do it can visit it but not buy from it because technically you dont have created it at that moment. This could be another incentive to do the content and hold up some people to just buy another round of houses.

But I guess we will not get that and so this remains another disappointing content.

(Also the new weather in Diadem can go die...who thought this was good for hours to look at?)