People. We need to talk about Limit Breaks.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Things i never heard in all the years i am playing the game:

"If you use it at 5% or lower it does more damage"

"If you kill the final boss with it, you get more EXP"


Sounds like someone had some few bad experiences and now thinks noone knows how to use limitbreaks...so nice thread bait...nice bait indeed.

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Been here since PS3 beta and 2.0 early access, and I assure you, those two aren't the only two things I've heard, just the most ridiculous.

Just because YOU haven't heard it, doesn't mean it ISN'T an issue.

I like mountains, so I use LB3 w/e its up. :)

Think an issue is how the game doesn't really give you any sort of tips on when there are good times to use it, and the lack of any agreement between the community. Have been berated a few times for doing caster lb on a big trash pool for "wasting it".

Lack of information about LB ingame has let the community create all sorts of weird, nonsensical rules about it. Which wouldn't be so bad except if people paid attention on how it builds up in a particular instance, then looked at the party composition, we'd have less "omg, now we're only gonna have 1 gauge worth of lb at boss" and more people smacking mob packs with it or using it first hand at a boss as melee dps.

Also, I can't agree enough with OP on the statement with healer lb3. That's an excellent safety net IF--(and a big IF there)--people in the alliance or party learned from their mistakes. Otherwise, get ready to have another 6-10 dead people within the next 3-5mins.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Also, I can't agree enough with OP on the statement with healer lb3. That's an excellent safety net IF--(and a big IF there)--people in the alliance or party learned from their mistakes. Otherwise, get ready to have another 6-10 dead people within the next 3-5mins.

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I mean, good use of a healer LB3 can feel truly epic when it works out.

Had a run of Rabanastre in roulette the other day which somehow went horribly, horribly wrong. There was a point during Hashmal where we had only three people up: myself (WHM), the tank in my alliance, and the DPS in one of the others. My alliance was not quite to LB3, but someone commented in Alliance that the alliance who still had one DPS up had LB3. Swiftcast was about 6 seconds from cooldown.

Kept the other two up while waiting for Swiftcast, then rezzed a healer in the other alliance. They popped LB3, and the other whole alliance was up. At this point, my alliance's LB3 finished filling, and I popped it to get my alliance up, while the just-rezzed alliance's healers worked to get the healers from the third one back up. Somehow, without discussion, we all worked together to get through it and in the space of about 4 seconds we went from 3 people up to having two full alliances; we recovered and managed to get through the fight without wiping. The fight had started as a disaster, but the sheer "we actually pulled that recovery off?!" of that moment stuck with me through the rest of the run.

(Rest of the run went perfectly smoothly; I genuinely have no idea what went so horrifically wrong during the Hashmal fight.)

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Things i never heard in all the years i am playing the game:

"If you use it at 5% or lower it does more damage"

"If you kill the final boss with it, you get more EXP"


Sounds like someone had some few bad experiences and now thinks noone knows how to use limitbreaks...so nice thread bait...nice bait indeed.

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LB... purists, yes, let's call them that, may be far and few inbetween but when do rear their ugly heads, never be surprised by the shit that comes out of their mouths.


btw, lb purists referring to misinformed, screech at your ears for using it players, not OP

All I know is 99% of NIN seem to have LB off their cast bar despite being the best suited to LB.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I mean, good use of a healer LB3 can feel truly epic when it works out.

Had a run of Rabanastre in roulette the other day which somehow went horribly, horribly wrong. There was a point during Hashmal where we had only three people up: myself (WHM), the tank in my alliance, and the DPS in one of the others. My alliance was not quite to LB3, but someone commented in Alliance that the alliance who still had one DPS up had LB3. Swiftcast was about 6 seconds from cooldown.

Kept the other two up while waiting for Swiftcast, then rezzed a healer in the other alliance. They popped LB3, and the other whole alliance was up. At this point, my alliance's LB3 finished filling, and I popped it to get my alliance up, while the just-rezzed alliance's healers worked to get the healers from the third one back up. Somehow, without discussion, we all worked together to get through it and in the space of about 4 seconds we went from 3 people up to having two full alliances; we recovered and managed to get through the fight without wiping. The fight had started as a disaster, but the sheer "we actually pulled that recovery off?!" of that moment stuck with me through the rest of the run.

(Rest of the run went perfectly smoothly; I genuinely have no idea what went so horrifically wrong during the Hashmal fight.)

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That's too much of an inspirational tale about never giving up and less about banana uses of the lb.

That kind of post should go to the bleak and despairing Tales of DF thread :p

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

The first half would require the player in question to not be the typical DF player we see today, many of whom barely know the basics let alone how to be effective.

With regards to the second half, by 600% I assume you meant the LB3 potency, which isn't something you would see in a DF dungeon. LB3s are typically reserved for raids and 8-man content, and I understand saving the LB til it hits 3 bars, but... then use it. Don't wait until the last few % when it is likely to not even connect because the boss dies before the animation finishes. Use it as soon as it pops.

I'm just tired of seeing LBs going unused, or getting shouted at because I used it at a part of a dungeon where it was more efficient than saving it.

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I have been playing on and off for a very long time, My preferred Class is Black Mage, and I have 3 mains. My Au Ra is geared for Eden Savage. My DPS is right along what the experts with the meters want. If I'm in a Random or a Static, I wait for the party leader to type LB, or say to use it on Discord. In a Random the Tank should be the one to let the DPS know when to use it. Since I'm usually on BLM, it would be a waste of my single target DPS for me to use one on a Single Target aka Boss. However for AOE fights, esp big ones, I can slip it in No problem, but I will only do it if I see in Party Chat: "BLM LB" (note Say & Yell are Muted thanks to Gil sellers spamming those channels. I kind of feel bad for the people who chat in say all the time, thinking I might see it. :( sorry nope.)

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Most importantly, why you're not using them correctly.

If you have:

• never used a melee LB on the first/second boss of a dungeon
• never used a caster/ranged LB on a large pack of mobs in the early parts of a dungeon
• saved a LB the whole way through a dungeon and then used it on the last 5% of the final boss

...then bad news, you're wasting time and damage.

In my seven years in this game, I've heard some incredible "reasons" for not using the Limit Break at a reasonable time during a dungeon.

"If you use it at 5% or lower it does more damage"

"If you kill the final boss with it, you get more EXP"

Those are genuine explanations I've been given for not using the Limit Break.

What's worse are the stories of people getting shouted at, belittled, and even kicked from the duty for using the Limit Break correctly - most likely because the rest of the party are the kind of idiots who I mentioned above. That is just disgusting behaviour, and if you've been involved in that kind of abuse of the kick system, you should be ashamed of yourself.

There is literally no reason at all to not use a Limit Break as soon as reasonably possible. It is a massive amount of damage that is beneficial to the party as a whole, as enemies die faster, which means less healing, which means everyone moves on faster. Unlike some AoEs, they don't have damage drop-off either.

Here is a table showing the potencies of all Limit Breaks. For example, the level 1 LB for a caster does 1650 potency to every enemy it hits in one go. Sure, the whole thing takes around 7 seconds from hitting it to regaining control of your character, but unless you can show me how you can match this ridiculous potency in the same 7 seconds, you should be using it. The fact the potency increases to absurd amounts after that, capping at 9000 potency for a level 3 melee LB, just further screams "USE ME!"

"But what if the healer needs to use it?" I hear you cry. My friend, if you need a healer LB to save you, you have MUCH bigger problems to take care of.

So please. Start using the Limit Break appropriately, to the benefit of your party.

If not, then I hope that the tanks and healers reading this will follow my suit and deliberately spaff the Limit Break up the wall at the start of the last boss, because people need to learn.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

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All negligible. Optimal use of LB, or lack of it won't make or break a dungeon.

If I taught a limit break 101 course, the most important thing I would teach is for the group to make sure to expend the gauge before getting to the boss. One of the most disheartening things to see is all that gauge that was acquired just get sapped away. This is the biggest mistake players make, and most don't even know they're making it.

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If there was a limit break 101 course, the most important thing it would teach is for the group to make sure to expend the gauge before getting to the boss. One of the most disheartening things to see is all that gauge that was acquired just get sapped away. This is the biggest mistake players make, and most don't even know they're making it.

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It's not helped by the fact that some boss encounters simply add a LB bar (primarily last bosses in 4-man dungeons), others add a LB bar while also emptying the gauge (any boss in 24-man dungeons), and others don't do anything to it at all (any other bosses in 4-man dungeons). The fact that the game can't stick to one particular behavior about it doesn't help with teaching.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

All negligible. Optimal use of LB, or lack of it won't make or break a dungeon.

If I taught a limit break 101 course, the most important thing I would teach is for the group to make sure to expend the gauge before getting to the boss. One of the most disheartening things to see is all that gauge that was acquired just get sapped away. This is the biggest mistake players make, and most don't even know they're making it.

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I am right on board with the second part of this, I think some consistency would be amazing here.

As to the first bit though... like almost nothing can break a dungeon. They're meant to be cleared. The whole point of the topic is to teach people to LB better. Just because it's not as big an issue as 0 dps healers or freestyle dps doesn't mean it wouldn't help if people were more educated.

Heck, those extra bad dps would actually benefit the most from understanding LB generation and the best times to spend it. Not like they're doing much else.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's not helped by the fact that some boss encounters simply add a LB bar (primarily last bosses in 4-man dungeons), others add a LB bar while also emptying the gauge (any boss in 24-man dungeons), and others don't do anything to it at all (any other bosses in 4-man dungeons). The fact that the game can't stick to one particular behavior about it doesn't help with teaching.

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Aye, that's why I said it is all kind of negligible. A limit break is a lot of potency, no doubt about that. However this damage is in a vacuum. When taking a bird's eye perspective and looking at the overall damage throughout an entire dungeon/encounter, this number is very small.

Fact remains that while the game does teach you about limit breaks, it does not teach players about all the intangibles like you pointed out. In a single-player console game, I can see designing such things in a way that leaves it for players to figure out for themselves. They will use it liberally trying to do so. In an mmo, a lot of players see that the gauge is shared between the party, and are hesitant about pulling the trigger, thinking it will negatively impact the group.

The other thing I can point out, and this is especially true playing a melee job, is that I can be in a zone with my rotation and using an LB will break that groove. In such cases, I know that a given time is a good one to use the LB, and I desperately hope that someone else will use it. This is where I can sympathize with the OP.

A good group won't even need/care about LB anyway.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

As to the first bit though... like almost nothing can break a dungeon. They're meant to be cleared. The whole point of the topic is to teach people to LB better. Just because it's not as big an issue as 0 dps healers or freestyle dps doesn't mean it wouldn't help if people were more educated.

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I totally understand where you are coming from, and I couldn't agree more about players being more educated. In this regard, I feel the game can do a better job informing players about LB so they are less reluctant to use it.

That takes me back to 'make or break' part. My statement was not to trivialize the use of LB during dungeons. In fact, quite the opposite. I know I can be verbose in my expressions, by the point I am eventually getting to is to actually encourage the use of LB by letting players know that they won't make or break the dungeon by doing so.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I totally understand where you are coming from, and I couldn't agree more about players being more educated. In this regard, I feel the game can do a better job informing players about LB so they are less reluctant to use it.

That takes me back to 'make or break' part. My statement was not to trivialize the use of LB during dungeons. In fact, quite the opposite. I know I can be verbose in my expressions, by the point I am getting at in the entirety of that post is to actually encourage the use of LB by letting players know that they won't make or break the dungeon by doing so.

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Ahhh, totally my bad, I took it in the opposite direction.

Damn text with its lack of inflection >.<

I should show this thread to Allisae...

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Originally Posted by kelevra13

I should show this thread to Allisae...

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I think Trusts always uses LB the moment it becomes available right?

LB only matters in Savage, Primal Extreme and 24-man first week.
In dungeon, it doesn’t matter much.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

"Why did you use LB? Let melee do it!"
"Wow, way to waste the LB"
"Gg [class]"
"Lb on trash lol"

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Yep my experience too.

After being raked over the coals more than a few times for wasting it in Satasha easy mode, I leave it the hell alone and let the melee do it when they want.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Like I said, if you need a healer LB3, you got much bigger problems.

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And if an lb1 or lb2 has any effect on your dungeon run, you got much bigger problems.

I mean, if it makes trash mobs die faster, that kinda makes the dungeon run go a little faster. It's minor, but it's something (plus why not use it? AoE rotations are usually a single button press for some ranged Jobs). Healers shouldn't need to use the LB at all, but if the party is having problems...

Dungeon:
a LB will make a tiny difference, prolly abut 5-10 secs per use on a boss or trashpull, sure it feels nice but its not as amazing as it seams.

8 Man:
Only Lv 3 Lbs really make a dent into the bosses, so even if you were to lv Lb3 the second you get a lv3 chances are you will get a lv 1 back at best which you wont feel.
So why do we save the LB's? because it doesnt matter, it just adds a security net. You saying "you have bigger problems if you need a heal lb" is just you sitting on a high horse. There is nothing wrong with using a LB3 heal to save a 5min fight rather then using a LB3 that will save 15 secs.

Also lets not forget back in 2.x days some normal Dungeon bosses were spicey (you were lucky to finish the dungeon at times) and the lower they got the worse they would get.
I remember countless Sastasha Hard fights losing to the 2nd boss, who pops more and more adds the lower he gets, a LB at 20% would push him into fleeing. Same goes for Longstop hardmode a full phase can be skipped.

Theres prolly more that i dont remember outta my head this moment, then again i dont think too many will remember these days.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

And if an lb1 or lb2 has any effect on your dungeon run, you got much bigger problems.

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Why would you deliberately choose to NOT do more damage, though? That's called "being a hindrance". Over time, it adds up.

You care too much about the LB and how it gets used. It literally doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

You care too much about the LB and how it gets used. It literally doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Why would you deliberately choose to NOT do more damage, though? That's called "being a hindrance". Over time, it adds up.

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You know an argument is tired when it can literally be replied to accurately from only quotes on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

I think Trusts always uses LB the moment it becomes available right?

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I'll get back to you on this one since I've never run trusts w/o Allisae (she just got to 80 today), and she always uses one bar on every boss. XD

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Also lets not forget back in 2.x days some normal Dungeon bosses were spicey (you were lucky to finish the dungeon at times) and the lower they got the worse they would get.
I remember countless Sastasha Hard fights losing to the 2nd boss, who pops more and more adds the lower he gets, a LB at 20% would push him into fleeing. Same goes for Longstop hardmode a full phase can be skipped.

Theres prolly more that i dont remember outta my head this moment, then again i dont think too many will remember these days.

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I started in 5.0 so i never saw many of the old things ,and what you describe sounds great. Challenging.



What made them remove it?

The number of times melee players need to be reminded in boss fights that LB even exists is baffling. And even after you scream "LB!" or "Melee LB!" in party chat, there's no guarantee the melee in your party will wake up and use it. Ranged and casters don't always have the reflex or presence of mind to use LB on big packs. Then there's the occasional healer/tank LB trolling (as in using LB when it's absolutely not necessary).

On another note, does the game mention anywhere that LB is per party? Because I've come across players who thought that LB was individual.

I don't use it... at all. Ever.

I've seen it used in spectacular ways, but those were rare. I've seen tanks use it to save the party from a huge wave of damage. I've seen healers use it to save the party when almost everyone was dead.

But you're just talking about using it for DPS. I don't like getting yelled at because someone had another idea of whether or not it should have been used now or later. So I just don't bother. Everyone has an opinion on how to use the damn thing. "Oh, you should have let the caster do it!" "That should have been melee!" "Why did you use it so early?!"

Look- either I spam it as soon as the LB1 fills up, or I just leave it the hell alone. Personally, if the dungeon is so hard that you can't beat it without LB, then you're doing it wrong.

Besides- I usually main a BLM. My ability to do AoE with Flare, Convert, Flare, Freeze to recover mana, and then Fire 3 to pop out another 2 Flares and even a Foul will out DPS any AoE LB1 or 2.
"Black Mage, use LB1 on the mob!" Why? I got this! LB1 is for babies.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Snip
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

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Which is why I LOVED the Ungarmax being usable on tanks / healers. It gave them some sort of DPS option (it increased party damage by X amount)

But barring that, I am an advocate for a personal limit break system, Trance. Everyone builds up their own limit breaks and uses it on their own.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

I don't use it... at all. Ever.

Besides- I usually main a BLM. My ability to do AoE with Flare, Convert, Flare, Freeze to recover mana, and then Fire 3 to pop out another 2 Flares and even a Foul will out DPS any AoE LB1 or 2.
"Black Mage, use LB1 on the mob!" Why? I got this! LB1 is for babies.

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A prime example of a bad player. Egotistical.

During that ice phase is the perfect time to use it.

As a newer player I leave it to someone else.. I got told off for using it once :/

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Which is why I LOVED the Ungarmax being usable on tanks / healers. It gave them some sort of DPS option (it increased party damage by X amount)

But barring that, I am an advocate for a personal limit break system, Trance. Everyone builds up their own limit breaks and uses it on their own.



A prime example of a bad player. Egotistical.

During that ice phase is the perfect time to use it.

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Ego maybe, but their not wrong unless its an LB3 the net loss of DPS doing an LB 1 & 2 during AOE fights is not worth it for a Black Mage. Also, the Ice phase is 1 maybe 2 casts, usually, 1 cast will fill your mana if everything goes right. Now on the daily roulettes, that's when I will use an LB 1 or 2, mostly because it doesn't matter, and I can't use flare yet. But level 80, not worth it for a Black Mage. Melee, other casters, even Aimed is better served with an LB 1 or 2 at 80. In the off chance, you're doing the level 79 dungeon on the random, if I'm feeling lazy, because we just did a wall to wall push with a tank, and the LB 1 is full I'll use it because I haven't started my rotation yet. And also we'll be running again soon, so no need to pop cooldowns for a big AOE fight.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

As a newer player I leave it to someone else.. I got told off for using it once :/

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See, this right here is another incredibly frustrating problem, which I touched on in the original post. The LB is there to be used, and it's silly to not use it if it's going to benefit everyone.

Unless the fight has specific mechanics that dictate other use (A13 and the new SoS trial for example), ignore the haters. Continue using it where it matters most.

Melee on single targets, ranged/caster on mobs.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Which is why I LOVED the Ungarmax being usable on tanks / healers. It gave them some sort of DPS option (it increased party damage by X amount)

But barring that, I am an advocate for a personal limit break system, Trance. Everyone builds up their own limit breaks and uses it on their own.

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I'd advocate for this on entirely selfish reasons. Right now, no melee player wants to touch LB in Savage because it hurts their parse. If you're ever in PF and you see LB3 being sat on, the melee are playing chicken.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Like I said, if you need a healer LB3, you got much bigger problems.

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And if you need a melee lb3 you have far, far worse problems...

Dying isn't a sign of a major "problem", it happens even in otherwise smooth runs with decent players. People aren't machines and it only takes one derp on a mechanic to accidentally kill you and 3 other dps. I use heal lb3 to save groups or optimize damage all the time. Even in a messy run with bigger problems, as you say, it still often saves a doomed run as long as you time it right. Do you really want to repeat that problem trial over and over because you "needed" that big number on your screen?

Like I said all you gain by blowing lb3 early instead of waiting for 10% is an extra lb1, which is so paltry it might as well not exist. In the same way you're correct people are very misinformed on optimal lb use in dungeons, you're misinformed on optimal lb usage in raids and trials.

I'll take a free safety net in pugs any day over a unnecessary 0.5% increase.

Strictly speaking of playing in Duty Finder, this is one of those areas that remind me of how, despite the fact DPS have the least responsibility, they somehow manage to most consistently underperform in that responsibility. Just use the bloody thing! Use it on a big pull. Use it on the mid boss. Just please use it. It will be back to full before you know it.

And I am not letting healers off the hook. Healer LB3, with its ability to skip the weakness state, res confirmation and loading screen, means it takes remarkably little for it to be worth using in a trial or raid. If there's a few bodies on the floor, unless the players are truly horrific, getting them back up will almost always mean you get more damage out of healer lb3 than melee lb3.

In most cases it doesn't change anything if a LB is used in any duty finder instance. Such a largerly unimportant ability. Just like sprint.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

In most cases it doesn't change anything if a LB is used in any duty finder instance. Such a largerly unimportant ability. Just like sprint.

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Hardly "unimportant". Sure, you may go a dungeon without using it, but I've been in plenty of instances throughout the years where it ended up saving the duty from a wipe.

The only problem I see with the LB is players' split decisions on how to optimize it.

1. Use it on the last boss
2. Use it on the mobs if ranged
3. Use it on the first boss if 1st bar
4. Use it on the first set of the final mobs if ranged
5. Wait for someone else to do it because you might screw it up
6. Forget about it completely and focus only on your rotation.

It's not unimportant. Just completely unguided with split expectations.






By the way: I love my sprint.

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Right now, no melee player wants to touch LB in Savage because it hurts their parse.

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So much for parses teaching/encouraging optimal play...

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If you're ever in PF and you see LB3 being sat on, the melee are playing chicken.

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A surprising number of people simply aren't aware of the LB. I can readily admit I am sometimes guilty myself of getting so drawn into handling both my rotation and the fight mechanics that I forget to LB.

Also I've lost count of the number of situations where a LB3 is ready, most of the party is dead but a healer is alive, and he just kind of stands there and lets himself drop too. I'd imagine a fair number of them don't even have the LB on their hotbars.