Dps meters

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

Same lol dps meters encourage cheating and you can't use dps meters without hacking in this game

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Not a hack, the program just reads the combat log the game saves. Square could eliminate it easily by not saving the log file.

I wish they had a personal performance meter. Perhaps one that runs on the dummies, showing your results along with anyone else nearby, or in a special instance, and show your results against average values for other players of the same item level (without names).

Another way would be a score sheet that appears after you exit an instance, showing your average performance relative to the others (no names), so you'd know that improvement is needed. This couldn't be used to beat others over the head with, but then, it could result in someone not being invited next time if they could be identified.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

Not a hack, the program just reads the combat log the game saves. Square could eliminate it easily by not saving the log file.

I wish they had a personal performance meter. Perhaps one that runs on the dummies, showing your results along with anyone else nearby, or in a special instance, and show your results against average values for other players of the same item level (without names).

Another way would be a score sheet that appears after you exit an instance, showing your average performance relative to the others (no names), so you'd know that improvement is needed. This couldn't be used to beat others over the head with, but then, it could result in someone not being invited next time if they could be identified.

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That's not correct, the tool actually reads network packets and system memory. There's a reason why it breaks every update.

Not really gonna add much to the debate, I don't that enough in the past already.


Though, what I want to say is (maybe for the new players that weren't around during SB), when they released the very first Ultimate, SE actually linked livestreams of the groups going for worlds first and the majority of those streamers had visible DPS meters in their gamescreen (and thus on the stream).


So, why are those streamers not banned?


Let that sink in for a moment. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

lol, it's not like Dancers wouldn't get ANYTHING out of analyzing their own DPS; and they can just use threat to pick a Dance partner.

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That's so ridiculous. Why should people have to resort to using the threat list when a perfectly reasonable option already exists? Nobody should be playing a job like dancer or even AST without running a damage meter. Like it or not, cry about it or not, that's a fact. If you play a job that is based around buffing other players, then you'd best know who is doing what damage. Sticking your head in the sand and saying "just use threat hurrr" doesn't change that.

Over/under how many pages this gets?

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

That's so ridiculous. Why should people have to resort to using the threat list when a perfectly reasonable option already exists? Nobody should be playing a job like dancer or even AST without running a damage meter. Like it or not, cry about it or not, that's a fact. If you play a job that is based around buffing other players, then you'd best know who is doing what damage. Sticking your head in the sand and saying "just use threat hurrr" doesn't change that.

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I don't have any problem with people using their "don't ask don't tell" meters, but plenty of people don't have access to them. If SE included a personal parser that doesn't show you anyone else's DPS for console players, or PC players who don't want to use illegal third party software, then classes like Dancer can still EASILY just use threat to pick a Dance partner. You don't need a parser for that at all.

Try actually reading what I'd been saying/responding to and getting some context before throwing out weird, antagonistic responses.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't have any problem with people using their "don't ask don't tell" meters, but plenty of people don't have access to them. If SE included a personal parser that doesn't show you anyone else's DPS for console players, or PC players who don't want to use illegal third party software, then classes like Dancer can still EASILY just use threat to pick a Dance partner. You don't need a parser for that at all.

Try actually reading what I'd been saying/responding to and getting some context before throwing out weird, antagonistic responses.

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omg chill lol

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Originally Posted by MPK

That's not correct, the tool actually reads network packets and system memory. There's a reason why it breaks every update.

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So why did I have to point it to the log location when I first set it up?

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

So why did I have to point it to the log location when I first set it up?

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I think it's because the program was originally designed to parse on-disk logfiles for EQ2 which actively logs to disk, and the setup wizard still reflects that. The plugin for 14 itself just reads and decodes network data directly using a network capture library called Machina.

The idea of a personal DPS meter or a scoring system at the end of a dungeon is all fine and dandy but it's missing the most crucial party about fflogs which is vital to improvement, being able to analyze a detailed report on a fight per fight basis. Seeing a high or low numbers does nothing if you can't figure out why it's high or low. You'll have no way of seeing where you dropped a GCD, accidently broke your own combo, messed up your rotation or where you might've gotten more damage in if you adjusted your rotation/cooldowns a bit.

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

omg chill lol

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Didn't mean to upset you, bro. I forgot where I was and accidentally spoke like an adult. It won't happen again. ;)

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The idea of a personal DPS meter or a scoring system at the end of a dungeon is all fine and dandy but it's missing the most crucial party about fflogs which is vital to improvement, being able to analyze a detailed report on a fight per fight basis. Seeing a high or low numbers does nothing if you can't figure out why it's high or low. You'll have no way of seeing where you dropped a GCD, accidently broke your own combo, messed up your rotation or where you might've gotten more damage in if you adjusted your rotation/cooldowns a bit.

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Exactly! I think a lot of people may not fully understand why we use the tool. Seeing the numbers during the fight is fine and everything, it gives you a very general idea on how you fair in the fight and who is struggling. But you can't really do much in the moment with that information. The tool doesn't really shine till after the fight, when the logs have been uploaded. Then you can break the fight down, and see where you can improve and what you can change in your rotation.

You can study your job guide, watch a fight guide and think you are doing good/great. That is what most people I know, myself included, say when starting down the road of improving. "I thought I was doing good." We all do things in our rotation, that we are unaware of. It is not till you look at the logs that everything is laid out in black and white. "Ohhh i clip here in my rotation to much, oh man I tripled weaved there. Hmm when this mechanic happens, I seem to be forgetting to keep my god rolling." The tool is so much more than looking at your numbers during a fight, and way more useful.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I agree that Savage/Ultimate should be an entirely different scene in terms of what's allowed in party interaction. If you want to do progression content you HAVE to be willing to improve, and that involves taking criticism. Protecting people from criticism in Savage makes no sense.

I would assume SE's desire to protect casual players from criticism is mostly focused on the other 99% of the games content, where things are easy and criticism is mostly contentious and pointless. I mean, on these forums I see a lot of people who seem to enjoy nagging and nitpicking casual players in easy content. I can only imagine how insufferable these people would be with parsers they could reference confidently.

I've suggested before SE including a parser, but making it only functional in Savage/Ultimate and on training dummies. It seems like a fair compromise.

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I actually disagree casual content would be insufferable. Initially, yes, you'd have a crop of morons screaming x DPS isn't doing enough damage despite their numbers be decent enough. But here's the thing, those players would inevitably get themselves banned. Within a month or two, people who act this way either will have calmed down due to multiple suspensions or be kicked out entirely.

A win/win if you ask me.

The reason they don't is SE holds a very different standard than the community. A dungeon taking 90 mins is perfectly acceptable whereas any reasonable player would think that absurd. A Samurai being out-DPS by a White Mage in Savage is fine because "more experienced players can pick up the slack for them." While the dev team point to harassment as the main catalyst, it isn't. They don't want players feeling bad about underperforming. A perfect example of this mindset is our Friend List. Yoshida acknowledged its a one way deletion specifically so if you remove someone said person won't feel bad suddenly discovering they lost a friend. Ironically, this has actually led to stalking issues because once you friend someone. They'll always be able to find your location in-game even if you change names. It's a horribly shortsighted system but they won't change it to avoid hurt feelings.

How about a compromise? A built in meter which at the end of a run shows what percentage damage and healing were done by each player - rather than raw numbers?

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

How about a compromise? A built in meter which at the end of a run shows what percentage damage and healing were done by each player - rather than raw numbers?

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My earlier point still stands, seeing a number or a % damage done does nothing to help a player improve. Unless there is detailed data on what you did during the run it literally serves no purpose than to stroke your own ego or see that someone was performing sub-par, but not WHY they were doing so.

Well I am happier without it because I have seen what it's like with it. In another game even people levelling got kicked for low dps.. and scaling was so broken.

I like that we don’t have to deal with people getting kicked from low level dungeons over dps meters like happens in WoW.

Surely there’s a way to add an official dps meter for static raiding groups though. Can’t see where the harm would be in a toggle on/off tool that you can only find if you’re looking for it and group consents to it.

Also when you finish a pvp game it tells you how much healing and damage you did, how many you killed and how many you assisted.

Since I started pvp I’ve seen my numbers gradually rise and rise. Sure I would be getting better anyway but it’s nice to look at and think ‘oh I had a bad game or oh I broke x amount of healing’. I think i was the top healer once.

And here’s the thing I wasn’t looking to see who was the worst healer or to find excuse why we lost. I’m sure some people do that but me and I assume most people are only really interested in themselves and improving.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Surely there’s a way to add an official dps meter for static raiding groups though. Can’t see where the harm would be in a toggle on/off tool that you can only find if you’re looking for it and group consents to it.

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It would need great care in the implementation or there will be pressuring in PF groups along the lines of "consent to dps metering or be kicked".

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Originally Posted by tdb

It would need great care in the implementation or there will be pressuring in PF groups along the lines of "consent to dps metering or be kicked".

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I mean, why is that a bad thing? You aren't entitled to a clear because you want one. You're joining someone else's PF and they can put whatever restrictions they fancy. You, in turn, can make your own PF. If people aren't willing to join it because you won't allow a DPS meter, then the community as a whole has spoken. They prefer DPS meters. Saying there needs to be "great care" is essentially saying, "we need to make sure people can still mostly join whatever PFs they want."

I guess it largely depends on what the overall attitude of groups is. It makes sense to ask for understanding the mechanics and enough dps to beat the enrage. But everyone has bad days, and lag an other issues happen. So I fear groups would start asking for significantly more dps than is necessary to provide themselves with a cushion against those random factors. If you only want to play with other elite players, you should make a static, not put up a PF.

Of course, if someone is having a bad day, or is too drunk to play, or whatever, the polite thing to do is to leave the group and not drag the others down. Or not join in the first place, but you don't always know these things beforehand.

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Originally Posted by tdb

I guess it largely depends on what the overall attitude of groups is. It makes sense to ask for understanding the mechanics and enough dps to beat the enrage. But everyone has bad days, and lag an other issues happen. So I fear groups would start asking for significantly more dps than is necessary to provide themselves with a cushion against those random factors. If you only want to play with other elite players, you should make a static, not put up a PF.

Of course, if someone is having a bad day, or is too drunk to play, or whatever, the polite thing to do is to leave the group and not drag the others down. Or not join in the first place, but you don't always know these things beforehand.

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Once again. Why is this a bad thing? Asking for "significantly higher DPS" isn't elitism. It's wanting faster kills and a potential to skip mechanics. You're still asking players to tolerate others who—in your own words—may be drunk. That's absurd. It's their PF. If they want to restrict it to only half-naked catgirl, not only is that their prerogative. They can kick whomever doesn't meet such a criteria. You're still essentially arguing a person is entitled to clearing content no matter what. They aren't.

Everyone has a bad day. But that isn't anyone else's concern nor are they obligated to carry you through because of it. Or rather, they shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I am glad they aren't in the game.. coming from WoW I have seen the trouble they bring.

I am confused though.. if dps meters aren't allowed in the game why do I see youtubers from this game showing themselves playing while using one?:confused:

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Ill bite cause why not.

The general position devs have given regarding the ToS is to use it as they need to. Meaning, yes it is against the ToS to use a parser however as long as you arent harassing anyone or 'doxxing' someone (and I use that term incredibly loosely here) to name and shame, they dont care. The second you start trash talking someone about their damage, the GMs can come in and ban hammer your butt for using one. But as long as you remain friendly and neutral about partying and dont explicitly go after people for the damage they do, they wont do anything.

The general reasoning given, btw, is what parsing is. Parsers that are in use pretty much just read your combat log and organize that data into a format you can read. You could technically do the exact same thing a parser does manually but god the effort in doing so would be ridiculous. Parsers just organize that data for you. Keep in mind, however, that some other addons will get you a ban right away. Any addon or background program that allows you to 'cheat' the fight by showing telegraphs that normally wouldnt be there or other mechanics that give you an edge to completing the fight are bannable. Since parsing is just reading your combat logs, it doesnt give you any kind of edge on beating the content.

Whether you use one or not is your own choice, but the official stance is "Dont be using it and you will get punished if we catch you using it while harassing other players."

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Once again. Why is this a bad thing? Asking for "significantly higher DPS" isn't elitism. It's wanting faster kills and a potential to skip mechanics. You're still asking players to tolerate others who—in your own words—may be drunk. That's absurd. It's their PF. If they want to restrict it to only half-naked catgirl, not only is that their prerogative. They can kick whomever doesn't meet such a criteria.

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It's pretty much the textbook definition of elitism. The elite raiders feel that because they are elite raiders, they are more deserving to get the loot than someone who is a merely okay raider. It's a bad thing because it will lead to segregation of the player base and discrimination. If the elites huddle with themselves, that leaves the okay players to deal with the bad ones.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You're still essentially arguing a person is entitled to clearing content no matter what. They aren't.

Everyone has a bad day. But that isn't anyone else's concern nor are they obligated to carry you through because of it. Or rather, they shouldn't be.

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You're misreading me. I'm not saying that anyone should be entitled to a clear regardless of skill. I'm saying that if you can pull your weight, you should be allowed to join a party. You shouldn't be required to show 18k dps for a fight which only needs 14k to clear. If you're having a bad day, your ISP is having the lags or you're too drunk to play properly, then you should try again another time.

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Originally Posted by tdb

It's a bad thing because it will lead to segregation of the player base and discrimination. If the elites huddle with themselves, that leaves the okay players to deal with the bad ones.

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That's rather hypocritical, don't you think? "It's okay if I don't wanna deal with bad players, but you are not allowed to do the same!"

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

That's rather hypocritical, don't you think? "It's okay if I don't wanna deal with bad players, but you are not allowed to do the same!"

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But I'm not asking you to deal with the bad players. If you can clear the fight, I'm only asking you to deal with other players who can also clear the fight. Sounds fair, no?

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I am glad they aren't in the game.. coming from WoW I have seen the trouble they bring.

I am confused though.. if dps meters aren't allowed in the game why do I see youtubers from this game showing themselves playing while using one?:confused:

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Dps meters are definitely allowed. Many players use them for self improvement. You just can't use it to harass others.

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Originally Posted by tdb

But I'm not asking you to deal with the bad players. If you can clear the fight, I'm only asking you to deal with other players who can also clear the fight. Sounds fair, no?

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It's not fair at all. Players have the right to choose who they want to team with. There's nothing wrong with a competent players preferring to team up with other players that are the same level as far as dps and/or mechanics. It's the same as casual players preferring to play with other casual players, and not wanting to team up with min/max hardcore level players. Every person has the right to choose, and that is not elitism or toxicity.

tldr: you can't use a dps meter to harass me, but you can use it to determine if you want to play with someone of my level

It's a good tool for improvement. Just too many people end up calling, belittling and what no on people who do not perform well.

Honestly just don't talk about it in game unless you're with ppl you absolute trust. Use it til your hearts content but keep out of in game chat and be mindful of what you say while streaming the game.

Dont be an ass when using it otherwise. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I am glad they aren't in the game.. coming from WoW I have seen the trouble they bring.

I am confused though.. if dps meters aren't allowed in the game why do I see youtubers from this game showing themselves playing while using one?:confused:

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Because the are breaking the TOS and using ACT which is a tool to do that and other things, to include integration with a website that monitors performance. So yes there are DPS meters, yes there is website tracking for elitists. No, they are not allowed to do this but get away with it because SE can only ban what they can prove. So if you are playing with someone and they report that they use ACT and act toxically in chat, report them. That is super easy to do.

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

Same lol dps meters encourage cheating and you can't use dps meters without hacking in this game

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That is false, the use is banned, but to use them all they do is monitor combat chat logs, which the game autogenerates already.

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Originally Posted by tdb

It's pretty much the textbook definition of elitism. The elite raiders feel that because they are elite raiders, they are more deserving to get the loot than someone who is a merely okay raider. It's a bad thing because it will lead to segregation of the player base and discrimination. If the elites huddle with themselves, that leaves the okay players to deal with the bad ones.

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You should reread that definition then because literally the first sentence disproves your argument.

"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."

None of this applies to party finder. If you put up a party finder and list restriction, you aren't influencing other people because they're still capable of making their own party finder. By your logic, putting an ilvl or job restriction (i.e., no dupes) would also fall under "elitism" per your definition of the term. Which means Square Enix themselves supports elitism. Which I think we can both agree they absolutely do not. Setting a DPS restriction of say, 75% is no different than putting an ilvl restriction of 490. Except the latter is more effective.

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Originally Posted by tdb

You're misreading me. I'm not saying that anyone should be entitled to a clear regardless of skill. I'm saying that if you can pull your weight, you should be allowed to join a party. You shouldn't be required to show 18k dps for a fight which only needs 14k to clear. If you're having a bad day, your ISP is having the lags or you're too drunk to play properly, then you should try again another time.

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Except that's exactly what you are doing. Why does someone have to allow people who only meet the bear minimum? What if they want to skip mechanics or clear at a specific point? For example, Conflag is arguably the most annoying mechanic. If you aim to skip it entirely, you need people with very high DPS. That 14K Samurai isn't going to cut it. Regardless, that 14k Samurai is relying on seven other players to compensate for their lack of damage. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to set their own minimum requirement in their own party? Saying they should just form/join a static is saying people in party finder should be forced to oblige whomever joins their party provided they can do the bearest of minimums. That's entitlement. You're joining their party.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I'm not baiting anyone.. I preordered Shadowbringers but haven't really played much because I went back to an old game. Been back for one month so far so have been watching a lot of tanking videos as I really enjoy Gunbreaker... this is how I noticed.

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It's because no one really seems to care lol

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Originally Posted by MPK

Very good bait thread. I am ready for 500 responses.

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Getting people to openly admit to using them in game and here, is so funny.

Good ol' RagingStallion resurrecting dead threads

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

*Snip*

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Don't feed the troll, kids.

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Originally Posted by tdb

You're misreading me. I'm not saying that anyone should be entitled to a clear regardless of skill. I'm saying that if you can pull your weight, you should be allowed to join a party. You shouldn't be required to show 18k dps for a fight which only needs 14k to clear. If you're having a bad day, your ISP is having the lags or you're too drunk to play properly, then you should try again another time.

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There's a fact that nobody really likes to hear but is quite important - beating a Savage fight doesn't actually prove you're immensely skilled. The vast majority of fights, particularly now with easy access to i500 gear, can be scraped through by subpar players who are either barely capable of doing the mechanics or inconsistent at best. Sure, the fight itself may only demand 14k from each DPS, but if the average for a Samurai in anything above i490 is around 18k and you're not hitting that then you're simply not putting in the same amount of effort as these groups you're mentioning. You're allowed to join a party, but higher end players are under no obligation to accept somebody who isn't pushing themselves to learn in higher end content where damage objectively matters. A bad player can quite handily clear almost any fight in the game, but somebody who barely knows their class and can't keep the barest semblance of a rotation going through Dark Light Portals is very much not the same as somebody who put in the effort to learn their rotation in and out and thought deeply about how to optimise that rotation in the context of a difficult fight.

Excuse you, I'm an RP black mage who believes elemental magic is inferior. I only cast Scathe and meld tenacity because my roleplay states that it's my best stat.

Now if you don't let me into your savage static you're an EVIL TOXIC ELITIST using illegal tools to shame my roleplay and should be banned from the game with no mercy. Pay no attention to the fact that I'm butting into content tailored to your playstyle, not mine. You're what's wrong with video games, not me.

I have a strong suspicion that people who consistently and competently raid in higher end content are quarreling with people who are almost entirely casual.