Ryne might be able to come back to the Source after all.

If 6.0 is a Garlemald expansion, and if the writers remember what kind of experiments they have been up to, then it would be of little consequence to clone a body and extract a soul. They have been manipulating and experimenting with the Echo and Soul extraction for quite awhile now, as Zenos (the by product of some of those experiments) isn't exactly a teenager, even if he acts like one. Emet used cloned bodies of Solus Zos Galvus to make his appearance in Shadowbringers. It was even mentioned/hinted by Emet Selch as to what would happen if Hydaelyn herself struck Ryne (who at the time already joined with Minfilia), resulting in her being split. We have even done a bit of experimenting ourselves lately. Having transferred memories and souls between worlds and bodies, to great effect. I'm not saying exactly that is what would happen, but as Cilia mentioned... Never say never.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's entirely possible that once the Eden Raid is finished, BFFs Ryne and Gaia will truck on over to the Thirteenth Shard with Eden to start work on repairing the damage there, essentially writing both of them out of the story (Minfillia-style) unless the writers decide to revisit them later.

It's only one possible outcome, but I see this as being totally in-character for something she'd like to do. Also, the Thirteenth is WAY more accessable than the Source is, given that Voidsent are constantly sneaking in and out, and she has the Emissary of Darkness at her side to help, as well.

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I honestly don't expect Gaia to "survive" the events of Eden. Sacrifice herself to speed up the recovery of the Empty? Yes, because it is hinted that her power is based on time manipulation and slows and speeds her spells. Have a happy ending of coffee cake and chats beneath the stars with Ryne? No, even though I myself wish it.

As was mentioned in the Tales from the Shadows.

"With what might be termed “wakeful eyes,” I reviewed the reports made by Ironworks members following their investigations into the Crystal Tower, the mechanical primal known as Alexander, and the interdimensional rift, the findings of which were instrumental in formulating the plan to alter the past. Thus did I discover that each of these missions had one common element: they ended with a key figure entering a form of self-imposed exile, not unlike a deep slumber. At times such as these, when one is to be separated from one’s companions, whether it be by sleep or by death, there is a phrase which I have found to be particularly fitting.

“Good night.”

One would hope given they're drawing awareness of that fact in game that they'll do something different.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

One would hope given they're drawing awareness of that fact in game that they'll do something different.

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One would hope they remember their own lore. Far to many times in game concepts have been forgotten by the main cast to drive a story. For instance, why wouldn't Urianger use white auracite to transfer some of the light from the WoL/WoD to ease the burden? Or for that matter, trap the Light wardens? Because drama. Stupid, stupid drama.

I really hate being a mute character sometimes, if for nothing else than to express my disapproval of how we go about our missions in game.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Call me hopeful, but I believe those limitations will be worked through at some point in the future. Extraordinary feats have a habit of being rendered mundane with time, both in real life and in fiction.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

It's pretty clear that the limitations will be worked through if the writers see a need for it. Consider G'raha himself, who was not expected to be awakened until the technology of today surpassed that of the Allagans and so they had no more need of the power of the Crystal Tower... except he's now running around as a Scion of the Seventh Dawn not even a year from when he sealed himself inside. (Subjectively, it was a few hundred years, due to time and dimension travel shenanigans.)

So honestly Ryne arriving on the Source would be the sort of thing that is impossible now, but maybe in 7.0 or something suddenly it's entirely possible, and due to time bubble also within the same year.

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Of course it's not impossible; we've already proved it's possible, it's just not probable with the resources currently available to us. If the writers want to put Ryne into a story on the Source they can just... write a way for it to happen... but as it stands now there are too many issues with that. A lot of effort went in dragging us over to the First and by Emet-Selch's admission we're the first ever to cross body and soul; the Ascians couldn't figure it out. It's not a problem that's going to get solved in a day. G'raha and Beq Lugg only got half the equation between the two of them, and even if the former bound himself to the Crystal Tower again it might still be impossible because not only does it not exist on the Source, we kind of broke the Tycoon.

If they want to write Ryne into a future storyline, you bet your ass they'll come up with a way to put her on the Source; but it doesn't look like that's the case at the moment, so it's not likely to happen any time soon (if at all).

(And I still don't know what her soul's density has to do with it.)

I agree that Gaia probably won't survive the Eden raids. Or more accurately I don't think her chances are good; some storyline exclusive character(s) die / are put into indefinite slumber during these deals and there are no other characters besides Ryne to fill that quota (and while they may have probably written her out of the story for the indefinite future, I don't think they'd be so cruel as to kill off smol once-Minfilia).

(Apropos of nothing, the Yo-Kai Watch event is up again until 5.4, now replete with post-Heavensward Job weapons, Yo-Kai minions you'll need to get them, and a giant flying Jibanyan plush as a mount for getting all 17. Seems like the drop rate's up too; I got the GNB weapon in about an hour. Good thing I finished Ghost of Tsushima yesterday!)

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

One would hope they remember their own lore. Far to many times in game concepts have been forgotten by the main cast to drive a story. For instance, why wouldn't Urianger use white auracite to transfer some of the light from the WoL/WoD to ease the burden? Or for that matter, trap the Light wardens? Because drama. Stupid, stupid drama.

I really hate being a mute character sometimes, if for nothing else than to express my disapproval of how we go about our missions in game.

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The saturation of umbral, static aether in the world at the time might have made its manufacture impossible? Or perhaps not enough auricite could have been made to hold the light? Or its umbral nature would have made it not work? Cus otherwise, yeah. The Crystal Tower itself could have just sucked up all the light wardens since its apparently the same as a giant piece of auricite. I choose to believe there was a reason this was not done. And that that reason is locked behind one of Urianger's lectures that we tend to sleep through.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

The saturation of umbral, static aether in the world at the time might have made its manufacture impossible? Or perhaps not enough auricite could have been made to hold the light? Or its umbral nature would have made it not work? Cus otherwise, yeah. The Crystal Tower itself could have just sucked up all the light wardens since its apparent;y the same as a giant piece of auricite. I choose to believe there was a reason this was not done. and that that reason is locked behind one of Urianger's lectures that we tend to sleep through.

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We need to take a look at what we know about the auracite Urinager made in the First

Urianger made one just for Emet while we were full to the brim of light aether. The skies had even returned to being light aspected. We also know that a fully fledged Ascian such as Emet or Elidibus could contain all the aether of all Lightwardens due to us only needing to have been 9/14 rejoined to contain it. Also, considering the only obstacle was time, as mentioned by Urianger, 3 years seems like a fair amount considering he put one together in about a week (only a few days really. 4 days max) of us needing one. I just don't buy it as anything other than a plot hole. A glaring one at that. Just draw a bit of Light aether after every warden and use the Tower to drain it dry. Nothing could have been simpler. It's what frustrates me about the Scions, they should be smarter than this. They just all kind of stopped working together for a few years without us.


Sorry, I get what you guys are saying. I just don't enjoy seeing intelligent writing being potentially undone with a few in game logic leaps that our heroes should know about.

There's a catch to using the tower to drain the Light-aspected aether, though, and we see it in-game: the physical toll it takes on the Exarch.

Maybe he has no way of telling just how much "payback" he'll receive for using it to drain even one Warden's aether, and it's a gamble he can't afford to take while the others still remain.

There's also the risk that by simply transferring the aether to the tower, if it's still Light-aspected then it solves nothing in terms of what happens if the world gets rejoined and all its aether flows back to the Source.

Arguably transferring the aether is exactly what he does try to do after we defeat Innocence, using his own body as a proxy for the tower and with a plan to remove it from the First once he's absorbed it, but of course Emet interrupted that.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

One would hope they remember their own lore. Far to many times in game concepts have been forgotten by the main cast to drive a story. For instance, why wouldn't Urianger use white auracite to transfer some of the light from the WoL/WoD to ease the burden? Or for that matter, trap the Light wardens? Because drama. Stupid, stupid drama.

I really hate being a mute character sometimes, if for nothing else than to express my disapproval of how we go about our missions in game.

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Because the Lightwardens aren't aetherial beings. Because white auracite can't hold aether for a long enough time. Because white auracite itself can't strike down the Ligthwarden in order for such a transfer to occur.

I'm not sure we've ever seen White Auracite used in any event except as an all or nothing kind of thing. I'm also not sure it can accurately split off the characters aether that way. At least nothing so far has indicated it really works in any way except "suck everything into it", which... isn't really a solution to the problem. And as pointed out the Lightwardens aether has to go to the entity that killed it. Perhaps if you had like, a really strong Talos it would just go to the nearest living entity instead, which isn't really a solution either. We could ask about why it has to go to a living being, but it seems to have something to do with the overly aspected nature of it.

Another thing I forgot about earlier re. white auracite: it's repeatedly emphasised that it's very unstable as an energy storage device. We can use it to absorb and trap an Ascian, but we need to do that immediately and we can't use it to store the aetherial energy we'd need to blast it with.

Trying to drain the Light with it would be just asking for it to leach out and take over a new host.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Because the Lightwardens aren't aetherial beings. Because white auracite can't hold aether for a long enough time. Because white auracite itself can't strike down the Ligthwarden in order for such a transfer to occur.

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Lightwardens are aether, hence the cs of the aether flowing into you. White auracite could be contained long enough to teleport to the Crystal Tower, especially after Ryne was able to stabilize our aether after taking in the light. Don't need it to kill the Warden, Thancred could have done that with Ryne and the others due to Innocence being the only 8 man Lightwarden and only after Vauthry suffused himself with light after gorging himself on meol. Hell, Ryne was also capable of containing the light, but was only to be used as a last ditch effort if we couldn't be summoned on time.

Sorry man.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I'm not sure we've ever seen White Auracite used in any event except as an all or nothing kind of thing. I'm also not sure it can accurately split off the characters aether that way. At least nothing so far has indicated it really works in any way except "suck everything into it", which... isn't really a solution to the problem. And as pointed out the Lightwardens aether has to go to the entity that killed it. Perhaps if you had like, a really strong Talos it would just go to the nearest living entity instead, which isn't really a solution either. We could ask about why it has to go to a living being, but it seems to have something to do with the overly aspected nature of it.

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It's a vacuum, right? So the entity that kills the Warden HAS to be the host? I thought it only had to be the close enough person/creature, because that is what is said by the Exarch after Philia. So it wouldn't necessarily seek out the archer a quarter mile away that landed the lucky shot, but the warrior out in front next to the thing, right? So if the auracite is closer to the warden, the aether vacuum would take it first before it went anywhere else?

Titania was also an eight man Lightwarden. But yeah, none of that really seems workable. The light aether from killing a Lightwarden has to go into someone living. Once your aether is mixed with the Lightwardens there doesn't seem to be any current way to split it out (at least with White Auracite). So you'd just be sucking the entirety of whoever killed it into the White Auracite, which... isn't a solution.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Titania was also an eight man Lightwarden. But yeah, none of that really seems workable. The light aether from killing a Lightwarden has to go into someone living. Once your aether is mixed with the Lightwardens there doesn't seem to be any current way to split it out (at least with White Auracite). So you'd just be sucking the entirety of whoever killed it into the White Auracite, which... isn't a solution.

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Ah, true Titania was the other 8 man. Odd that it retained some semblance of self after its corruption.

Does it have to be a living entity? I must have missed that part. Because i'm not sure I ever heard that. If that's the case, I would hate to be whatever Storge was cause it didn't look human or animal. Like a coin with wings...

As for auricite not able to be used to separate aether, it doesn't need to. It only needs to work as you said, a vacuum. Hold the damn thing in front of you and done.


Edit after an edit.

Wait wait wait. Time out. It's already been established that it is possible to transfer particular threads of aether. The Exarch tried it before and was just about done before Emet stopped him. Come on....

Another edit.

This pandemic needs to go away because I have way too much time to think about this stuff...


I've derailed this thread enough. However my final thought on whether Ryne will be back is 100% yes. I have zero doubt.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Lightwardens are aether

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No, Lightwardens contain aether. They have physical bodies that must be killed before the aether goes out of them. You don't know how long white auracite can contain the aether, and there's also the question of whether or not we could still teleport in a stable manner with an unstable aetherial vessel in possession. If you're going by the specially designed soul vessels that work off of a similar principal to white auracite, those weren't made yet, and then run into still more issues of whether or not they'd even imbibe the aether of a Lightwarden, since they aren't living entities.


There's also the issue of, white auracite is supposedly rare.

As for Storge, it's sort of like a take on a biblical description of an angel, and Storge is some old greek word for familial love. The original forms of Lightwardens are Ascian designed monsters, some of which were killed by something else, hence how we know what happens when one dies, prior to us killing any. Titania and possibly the Cerberus from Qitana Ravel killed original form Lightwardens and were contaminated(though only Titania is really confirmed 100% on that note).

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No, Lightwardens contain aether. They have physical bodies that must be killed before the aether goes out of them. You don't know how long white auracite can contain the aether, and there's also the question of whether or not we could still teleport in a stable manner with an unstable aetherial vessel in possession. If you're going by the specially designed soul vessels that work off of a similar principal to white auracite, those weren't made yet, and then run into still more issues of whether or not they'd even imbibe the aether of a Lightwarden, since they aren't living entities.


There's also the issue of, white auracite is supposedly rare.

As for Storge, it's sort of like a take on a biblical description of an angel, and Storge is some old greek word for familial love. The original forms of Lightwardens are Ascian designed monsters, some of which were killed by something else, hence how we know what happens when one dies, prior to us killing any. Titania and possibly the Cerberus from Qitana Ravel killed original form Lightwardens and were contaminated(though only Titania is really confirmed 100% on that note).

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Semantics. All living beings in the universe of XIV are aether. The ARR quest "What little Gods are made of" already explains the cycle of death and rebirth as aether given new shape once a being has passed on. You also don't know if auracite can't be teleported and even if it can't the aether itself could still be drawn into multiple vessels at any given time, because as I mentioned before, Urianger created one in such short notice only after we failed to properly contain the light, as a way of dealing with Emet. You also don't know it couldn't contain the aether even though that is the purpose of the auracite to begin with. Killing an Ascian's body and draining their aether into it.

Again, if it could briefly contain a fully joined Ascian (14/14) as it was supposed to with Emet, then i'm all but certain it could contain a single warden for much longer. As we did (9/14) with five, however briefly it was that we did.



I know some of the wardens are named after words for Love. I'm saying all the others kept something of the form that was taken over. I just feel pity for who or what it was before. An elemental maybe as others appear as Sin Eaters in the area (Forgiven Bribery and Forgiven Vainglory). Which begs the question if you believe elementals are able to be wardens since they are pure aetherial spirits and don't really have a body as they are just beings that form themselves when they wish. If it was an elemental, was it possible for it to become a warden without a vessel to fill? Theoretically, some of the Fae are just spirits of the deceased as well.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Urianger created one in such short notice only after we failed to properly contain the light

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Incorrect. He created the auracite before we had even arrived, predicting that Ascians would come to stop anyone preventing the Rejoining. It's part of the reason he was in Il Mheg, since it is apparently the most aether rich region in Norvrandt thanks to the Fae and aether rich regions are necessary to make white auracite. He shows us the auracite when we first reunite with him in the quest "Unto the Truth" and it is the same one that is later splintered by Thancred to stake Emet in place.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Incorrect. He created the auracite before we had even arrived, predicting that Ascians would come to stop anyone preventing the Rejoining. It's part of the reason he was in Il Mheg, since it is apparently the most aether rich region in Norvrandt thanks to the Fae and aether rich regions are necessary to make white auracite. He shows us the auracite when we first reunite with him in the quest "Unto the Truth" and it is the same one that is later splintered by Thancred to stake Emet in place.

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Well ya got me there, good eye. Here's a like.

Except he sure made a decent amount when we needed to find a way to get the Scions back to the Source, which only happens after we recruit Beq Lugg. Granted at the time he had help, but then again he always should have had help. And boy did they crank them out. It still stands to reason he could have made more than one in the interim while all the Scions went their separate ways for years. Remember Moenbryda? She made the concept and delivered one in a few days along with the means to draw aether in to create a blade of light. What was his excuse?


EDIT
Truly I apologize to the OP for derailing this thread. If I had known that mentioning auracite would spawn two pages of off topic discourse, I would have just not.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Again, if it could briefly contain a fully joined Ascian (14/14) as it was supposed to with Emet, then i'm all but certain it could contain a single warden for much longer. As we did (9/14) with five, however briefly it was that we did.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

Remember Moenbryda? She made the concept and delivered one in a few days along with the means to draw aether in to create a blade of light. What was his excuse?

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Remember Moenbryda indeed - but you seem to have forgotten the details of her explanation.

See cutscene 2 of "A Simple Plan". She didn't make it in a few days; she was already researching white auracite, brought a sample with her and is ready to conduct "final tests".

She is also clear that the auracite cannot retain aether for long. This is demonstrated when they later use it to reactivate the beacon at Snowcloak with the Scions' combined power - all have to be present in the cave and infuse the auracite with their aether immediately before it is used. That is, it can't hold a few humans' easily-given infusion of aether for more than a few seconds. To try to store a Lightwarden's entire essence in it would be pure foolishness.

White auracite is simply not a storage device. It stuns and traps Ascians for just long enough that we can defeat them before they break out again.

I will have to review exactly what was said about the soul vessels but they are clearly a modified concept, and designed to carry a willing soul rather than trap one that wishes to escape.

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On your side note regarding the Wardens' names, three are named after the concept of the Four Loves: Philia (friendship), Eros (romance/desire) and Storge (empathy/affection); by deduction Titania - being the prior name of the host rather than the Warden itself - should be Agape (unconditional love).

My theory: Minfillia could travel between worlds. Minfillia gave her aetheric energy to Ryne in the MSQ; Ryne is able to travel between worlds because of this. Minfillia will reveal this to Ryne in due time.

Regarding all this back and forth about "obvious" solutions to the Light containment problem:

Bear in mind that the Internet is a big place, and FFXIV fandom has a lot of members. Collectively, we undoubtedly have a LOT more imagination than the writers do, and collectively we remember a ton of details that the writers may not. It is inevitable that fans are going to come up with alternatives, explanations, and plans for almost any situation. Additionally, OTHER fans can speculate reasons why those plans may not work - just as is happening in this thread.

EVEN IF the writers could anticipate every possible solution the players could possibly come up with, would you enjoy playing a game where they broke down each and every one, and provided an explanation why it wouldn't work? I suppose some might, but others would find such a wall of text to be a major drag. There comes a point where you simply have to accept that there's reasons why your great idea never came up. Perhaps the characters just didn't think of it. Perhaps they did, and discussed it off-screen. Perhaps there's more to the Lightwardens' Aether than has been explained to the audience, but is well-understood enough by the characters involved that they know proposing the idea is futile.

The WoL is overcharged with Light and on her way to insanity/oblivion/transformation/whatever - that was the drama they wanted to put forward in the final act. (It maybe fell a bit flat with me, since I know there's no way they're actually gonna kill off the player character, but that's beside the point. :P) I was comfortable with the notion that there were no simple solutions; while I might be able to think of a few that seem so, there must be reasons in-game why they don't work, stated or unstated.

Fridge logic is all well and good, and there's certainly examples in fiction where the obvious solution REALLY IS obvious, to the point where the characters seem like morons for missing it - but I dont' think this is such a case. A single individual containing the essances of multiple Lightwardens is literally unprecedented. ANY solution is theoretical at best, and the situation is extraordinarily dangerous to the point that any solution should be approached with the utmost caution.

On a side note, I, myself, was a bit perplexed back when the WoL defeated the FIRST Lightwarden. The Exarch was CLEARLY of supreme confidence that we would be be able to contain the Lightwarden's essence. I never really thought it was adequately explained why he was so confident in this - but he clearly seems to know SOMETHING, since he was also clearly aware that we might one day reach our Lightwarden limit, and had set self-sacrificey plans in motion for that eventuality. Chances are pretty good that he knows enough about what's going on to be able to explain why the suggestions in this thread wouldn't work.

I think that answer of how was made obvious in 5.3. The crystal tower would have channeled the energy required in the tower. This feature was kept secret by the writers for 5.3, but looking back on the early parts of the story it fits.

From there, as he originally planned, the Exarch would move the tower to 13th and release it. (As he revealed in 5.0) Although this process would kill him he would save the source another calamity and rebalance light and dark aether in the 1st and 13th.

But, things didn't go as planned.

I personally believe we'll see Ryne in 6.0 as the talking representation of Hydaelyn. Much like how she did with Minfillia.

I know we haven't heard from her in a while, but if we need to put down Zodiark because Zenos is successful in waking him, I'm sure she'll have to have something to say about it and/or impart an last bit of missing information.

I think she'll appear in 6.0 just because of how closely connected she is to Hydaelyn. It just seems bizarre to me to have the whole culmination of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, and yet not to feature the character who's most associated with her.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

I think she'll appear in 6.0 just because of how closely connected she is to Hydaelyn. It just seems bizarre to me to have the whole culmination of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, and yet not to feature the character who's most associated with her.

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My thoughts exactly.

What is not clear is if 6.0 will put us in opposition to Ryne representing Hydaelyn and Hydaelyn herself. Since both she and Zodiark are elder primals, this story could very much end (thematically fitting in with many other final fantasy titles) with us putting them both down in defense of humanity and free will.

Also opening the power vacuum for the new villain to fill for 7.0 and beyond.

Eh, FF doesn’t typically have a “kill all gods” thing. There are only two times that stance has really been brought up, XII and LR. XII it’s the stance of the villain so not exactly a ringing endorsement. LR does it, but even then it wasn’t about killing Etro, the closest Hydaelyn equivalent, that was actually a really bad thing. To say nothing of other FFs like XI or WoFF where there are just consistently good deities. So far Hydaelyn is good, and being a primal isn’t inherently an issue, so it seems like a jump when they could have hinted much more heavily as they usually do at it being evil. If anything they’ve even pushed Zodiark into a more positive position.

I am just finishing the fourth page of this thread... But getting Ryne to the source is actually super easy. In fact the only limitation on getting anyone anywhere at all is that the WOL/D has to be there first. All that needs to happen is for them to hold Azem's crystal and wish with all their heart for their friends to come to them.

Come to think of it I wonder if that solo duty for the resistance weapon was foreshadowing for that kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

That description fits everyone though. We aren't a sundered Ascian, we are a sundered Ancient, like everyone else. The Ascians are what became of the Ancients after the sundering.

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Yeah, Ascians are specifically all the Ancients who participated in the summoning of Zodiark. Even if the wiki page made that confusing by having “Ascian” as the page name. They should probably split the articles, but I am not involved with the wiki.

That said though, we ARE a former member of the Convocation of Fourteen whose signature spell is the power to summon allies from anywhere, including most notably the Rift.

Personally, I actually wonder if that spell and our former identity as Azem will come into play again and allow us to actually summon Ryne to the Source and the Scions back to the First (with their meat sacks this time, of course). I’m curious if there will be further exploration of our past self so we may come to understand the situation better. After all, we did promise Emet-Selch to remember. Remember that the Ancients once lived and keep their stories alive.

Off-hand, I find it interesting that we don’t seem to have told anyone of our meeting Hythlodaeus and the revelation that we and Ardbert are fragments of the same soul because everyone is still puzzling over how that works (or at least G’raha was anyway). He straight up just assumed we are separate entities from Ardbert (which isn’t WRONG, per se) but he definitely doesn’t know about our souls being of the same person’s.

Yeah. One of the most confusing things about Ascians is that the writers did a poor job explaining what they are and what the word represents. "Ascian" describes an organization, not a race or a power set.

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Originally Posted by kujoestars

Off-hand, I find it interesting that we don’t seem to have told anyone of our meeting Hythlodaeus and the revelation that we and Ardbert are fragments of the same soul because everyone is still puzzling over how that works (or at least G’raha was anyway). He straight up just assumed we are separate entities from Ardbert (which isn’t WRONG, per se) but he definitely doesn’t know about our souls being of the same person’s.

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That seemed more like a matter of phrasing. He said we and Ardbert are different people, but I think that's within the fact that we're fragments of the same soul, because he's contrasting it against his own circumstance. That is, [WoL fragment] + [Ardbert fragment] is a different type of soul merger to [G'raha fragment A] + [G'raha fragment B].

Of course, as he realises, that's not actually the maths because he's actually A + (B + [rejoined First fragment]) so there's still some additional soul in there; we just have no idea who that person was.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That seemed more like a matter of phrasing. He said we and Ardbert are different people, but I think that's within the fact that we're fragments of the same soul, because he's contrasting it against his own circumstance. That is, [WoL fragment] + [Ardbert fragment] is a different type of soul merger to [G'raha fragment A] + [G'raha fragment B].

Of course, as he realises, that's not actually the maths because he's actually A + (B + [rejoined First fragment]) so there's still some additional soul in there; we just have no idea who that person was.

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Obviously, he’s G’raha^2. XPPPP

I highly doubt there’s anyone else in G’raha besides an alt timeline of himself and his current self, which means he’s some kind of paradox rejoining on top of the rejoining he already had from surviving the 8th Umbral Calamity in his doomed timeline. But then that leaves the question of how his soul isn’t denser than ours (it’s about the same as ours according to Y’shtola) since that would mean his soul has mingled 9 times now. Maybe being from a doomed timeline affects things.

EDIT: I should clarify that I didn’t really bother factor in who the heck his counterpart from the First is, but they presumably died during the Rejoining and melded with him, which makes him just a more “complete” G’raha.

Still, I find it a bit odd that G’raha didn’t factor the fact Ardbert being our soul reflection since his dialogue basically went “I know my souls merged because I’m me and all, but you and Ardbert were separate persons. Maybe it’s because you guys had a wholehearted understanding to common cause?”

I still need to track down Urianger to find his dialogue on Azem (inb4 he was in Mor Dhona all along and I was just stupid to teleport straight out of Rising stones....) but I’m dead curious if anyone besides Seto and Hythlodaeus (and Emet and Elidibus) knows about our past life as Azem.

Boy, the only downside to being caught up is having to wonder if we’ll have more content expanding on Azem and the Ancients next patch, but I am so ready to suffer for the next few months or so.

Edit2: Okay, I think I catch what you mean now. G’raha is more questioning how the merger between us and Ardbert could happen in the absence of a Rejoining basically wiping him completely to make him just another part of us. Which makes more sense everyone knows about the sundered nature of souls.

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Originally Posted by kujoestars

I still need to track down Urianger to find his dialogue on Azem (inb4 he was in Mor Dhona all along and I was just stupid to teleport straight out of Rising stones....) but I’m dead curious if anyone besides Seto and Hythlodaeus (and Emet and Elidibus) knows about our past life as Azem.

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If you are still unable to find Urianger; He, Thancred and Y'shtola are present in the Dawn's Respite that is now accessible from the main Rising Stones room.

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Originally Posted by kujoestars

Still, I find it a bit odd that G’raha didn’t factor the fact Ardbert being our soul reflection since his dialogue basically went “I know my souls merged because I’m me and all, but you and Ardbert were separate persons. Maybe it’s because you guys had a wholehearted understanding to common cause?”

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What I mean is - on the assumption that he's aware that we and Ardbert are the same soul, what he's saying is that we had different pieces of the soul (pieces 1-8 vs piece 9) where he just had a duplicate copy of the same pieces 1-8, which apparently stack without counting as extra pieces. But again, that was overlooking that the Exarch did have piece 9 from the rejoining he lived through.

This may be making more sense in my head. I need to draw diagrams sometime.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What I mean is - on the assumption that he's aware that we and Ardbert are the same soul, what he's saying is that we had different pieces of the soul (pieces 1-8 vs piece 9) where he just had a duplicate copy of the same pieces 1-8, which apparently stack without counting as extra pieces. But again, that was overlooking that the Exarch did have piece 9 from the rejoining he lived through.

This may be making more sense in my head. I need to draw diagrams sometime.

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No, it makes sense.

G'raha was also likely just acknowledging that Ardbert, despite being of the same soul as us, was a separate person who had lived a separate life. Meanwhile Source G'raha was identical to Exarch G'raha up till the point they merged. Or up until the point when the 8th Umbral calamity was avoided, technically.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Yeah. One of the most confusing things about Ascians is that the writers did a poor job explaining what they are and what the word represents. "Ascian" describes an organization, not a race or a power set.

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Yeah. If I recall, originally "Ascian" as a term was supposed to describe a characteristic, namely that of not having a shadow. (Like, that's literally what the word means, from Latin "ascius".) This is also the etymology in-universe, as mentioned in the first lorebook, and also why the latest dungeon has the "Shadowless" gear.

So the initial intent was to have certain NPCs (eg Travanchet) be noticed as Ascians because of their lack of shadow, but this quickly got thrown out because the game engine (definitely the one from 2.0 onwards, although I think 1.0 was already struggling with it) couldn't handle such complexity. So now Ascians, whether red masks or black masks or whatever, all have shadows. So we have no idea why they're called Ascians in-universe in the first place, since the devs have carefully not mentioned whether we're supposed to edit out the shadows for the sake of verisimilitude.

Now we don't know if any person from the time of Amaurot, whether Amaurotine or otherwise, is similarly shadowless, or if it's just the Convocation of Fourteen Minus One and their assistants.

I always took the meaning of "shadowless" to be metaphorical.

The Ascians have shown time and again they are willing to manipulate things from behind the scenes and not be known as the true puppetmasters of Eoreza's fate.

So they are dark/evil represented by the "shadow" and "less" because they are never seen doing or causing the bad things.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I always took the meaning of "shadowless" to be metaphorical.

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While that may be the case now—it definitely wasn't always intended to be.
https://gamerescape.com/2018/12/01/f...with-koji-fox/

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GE: All of the Ascian overlords received names from the Final Fantasy XII “Scions of Light.” However, there were only twelve Scions and we’ve got fourteen overlords. Have you come up with two new names?

Koji: I actually can’t say anything about Ascians either…other than they’re not supposed to have shadows! Ascians are not supposed to have shadows…and they…are not supposed to have shadows! That’s all I’m going to say… (brief silence) …That’s what Ascian means! They’re supposed to be shadowless! That’s why I choose that word twelve years ago!

GE: (laughing) Do you think they would ever go back and fix this in the old scenes if they found a way to make it work?

Koji: I don’t think so, not at this point. I think the development team wants to pretend it’s a made up word that has no meaning and they want me to forget it, but I always remind them that Ascians aren’t supposed to have shadows. What you see is not a shadow it’s… the shadow of their clothes! If you saw a naked Elidibus walking around, he would not have a shadow. There you go, official answer! So… Travanchet was naked? Those aren’t clothes, that’s body paint!

Also, I don’t know about the names.

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That this interview was given mere hours before (or perhaps after?) Shadowbringers was revealed is particularly humorous, lol

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

If you are still unable to find Urianger; He, Thancred and Y'shtola are present in the Dawn's Respite that is now accessible from the main Rising Stones room.

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Yeah, I finally noticed that door was still lit when I ran back to check. XD

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What I mean is - on the assumption that he's aware that we and Ardbert are the same soul, what he's saying is that we had different pieces of the soul (pieces 1-8 vs piece 9) where he just had a duplicate copy of the same pieces 1-8, which apparently stack without counting as extra pieces. But again, that was overlooking that the Exarch did have piece 9 from the rejoining he lived through.

This may be making more sense in my head. I need to draw diagrams sometime.

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Yeah, I eventually realized it and made some edits, but not sure if in time. :P

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

No, it makes sense.

G'raha was also likely just acknowledging that Ardbert, despite being of the same soul as us, was a separate person who had lived a separate life. Meanwhile Source G'raha was identical to Exarch G'raha up till the point they merged. Or up until the point when the 8th Umbral calamity was avoided, technically.

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Yep, about what I think, but even still, it’s VERY weird wording on his part. What also throws me off is that this is more the psychological part of merging as opposed to purely souls, and without a more explicit mention, it came off like he didn’t know we were literally fragments of the same soul.