We really need to talk about Living Dead

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

OK when 5.3 drop WAR can have LD and DRK will have Holmgang.

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Okay? Am I supposed to react negatively to this comment? I play every tank actively and regularly, so don't let the fact that my profile says "Warrior" make you think that I don't have plenty of experience on DRK and using LD.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Just say it, you want your main to be the best at everything, everyone does.

DRK already is the most OP MT atm, no need more buff.

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Yeah, Ignore what healer said 2 post above and what other people say shall we?

When I heal I hate LD.
When I tank LD often kills me when I try and use it to stay on top of a friggin huge pull in a dungeon.
When my FC heals they don't like it when I play DRK over the other tanks because of LD.

Honestly, if Walking Dead just buffed incoming heals I think it would all be groovy.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Okay? Am I supposed to react negatively to this comment? I play every tank actively and regularly, so don't let the fact that my profile says "Warrior" make you think that I don't have plenty of experience on DRK and using LD.

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Then you wouldn't have problem handling LD as WAR yeah? since it's
"the single best tank invuln" and "LD is extremely powerful" according to you. So if 5.3 drop and LD didn't change I would like to see you handling LD with another job.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Then you wouldn't have problem handling LD as WAR yeah? since it's
"the single best tank invuln" and "LD is extremely powerful" according to you. So if 5.3 drop and LD didn't change I would like to see you handling LD with another job.

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What does this even mean?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

What does this even mean?

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It's a strawman, so it doesn't really mean anything.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Then you wouldn't have problem handling LD as WAR yeah? since it's
"the single best tank invuln" and "LD is extremely powerful" according to you. So if 5.3 drop and LD didn't change I would like to see you handling LD with another job.

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Would I be pleased with it? Not necessarily, as arbitrarily swapping CD's between the tanks doesn't make a lot of sense. However, would I be bothered by having to use LD? Not really.

On another point, I said that can be the strongest invuln with proper play and coordination, and a WHM. In a general sense, Holmgang is the strongest invuln in a larger number of scenarios. That doesn't detract from LD's strength though. Try to come up with some legitimate points of contention next time.

Edit: WAR could even handle LD better than DRK can, since WAR has access to Thrill of Battle, Equilibrium, and Nascent Flash. So, sure, give me LD on WAR when I can heal a solid 50% of my own HP back minimum.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Then you wouldn't have problem handling LD as WAR yeah? since it's
"the single best tank invuln" and "LD is extremely powerful" according to you. So if 5.3 drop and LD didn't change I would like to see you handling LD with another job.

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WAR would honestly work much better with Living Dead than DRK.

Nascent Flash alone would be enough to help purge the debuff, but the also have Equilibrium, and Thrill of Battle(Along with the baked in convalescence trait at level 80).

Meanwhile DRK has a pitiful GCD combo finisher, and Abyssal Drain which would have been a great help but was sadly nerfed to the ground this expansion.

LD really isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Even in ad hoc situations where it's unplanned for some reason. AST can Synastry > B2 > ED and thanks to the ED snapshotting the 1 HP it'll be at full potency. A crit on either of those full heals the DRK out of LD, and even if you don't crit you can just throw an AB or another B2 if need be. WHM of course can Bene. SCH needs a few more CD's for maximum effect, ideally wanting to combine it's fairy healing buff with Dissipate, Recitation and Excog, but even just Rec+Excog and a Lustrate is enough if at least one crits. Given that almost all invuln cooldown is planned nowadays, there's no excuse. Yes AST and SCH have to blow a few more CD's than WHM, but they are quite capable of pulling a DRK out of LD when needed.

Living Dead, whilst having the weakest effect of all the invuln's, is balanced by having the longest duration. It's effectively 20 seconds. There are also some circumstances where LD can be the best invuln of the lot for a certain situation. Conflag strike in E6S for example. It's great for multiple tankbuster's, like Titania's, Ravensclaw, Panto 2 etc..

Outside of savage it's pretty poor, but if you find yourself needing to use it as a panic button then you have worse problems to deal with anyway.

The simplest way to augment it is to either give the DRK lifesteal for those 10 seconds, or add the old effect of convalescence to it.

Honestly, there's no problem with Living Dead. Healer mains are just whiny by nature. I play all tanks and all healers, and honestly I prefer Living Dead over Superbolide in a group setting, mainly because Superbolide makes you take damage and has a low duration. I remember so often in Ruby Weapon Ex, GNBs popping nothing other than Superbolide to catch that meteor with, meaning they dealt 150k damage to themselves to prevent 100k damage... lol.

What DRK should have, and did have somewhat at one point to make up for Living Dead being weaker in comparison to Holmgang/Hallowed is that it dealt high damage. As high as WAR's when WAR was king, depending on your luck with Low Blow procs, and if you had a Ninja to help you out with keeping hate while doing your DPS combos over Power Slash. Its DPS has only weakened since then, in relation to every other tank, and as awesome as The Blackest Night has been, that doesn't make up for it in my opinion. If it's going to have crappy situational tank cooldowns all around(Dark Mind, Living Dead), and then no self healing on the level of the other tanks(it matches GNB here, but GNB's got the highest damage), then it should have a leg up on dealing damage over PLD and WAR to be tied with GNB. It's not, and they just seem to not care about this poor design, as much as they pay lip service to saying that they do.

I thought it had a leg up with the AOE department, but Confiteor being at 1200 potency under Requiescat said otherwise.

Also, for commentary on about there being no ideas for them to make another invulnerability skill for tanks that would be unique. I say anyone who says that is unimaginative. It'd be quite easy or them to make an oGCD on a long cooldown that dealt damage at range, and then provided a heal with shield at 100x the amount healed for like 5 seconds. Or something that functioned like an all damage type version of Perfect Dodge that Rogue used to have. They could make one where you become invulnerable for the duration, but unable to deal damage for the duration as well. Lots of stuff they could do. They'll likely never get rid of invulns.

There are a lot of design problems with Living Dead.
1. There's no gauge that indicates how much healing is still required to remove the effect. You're almost certainly going to overheal it without benediction.
2. It's not intuitive. There is no obvious indication to your team outside of a single buff icon that the effect is active and still needs to be addressed. A new healer has no idea what to do with it unless they mouse over it, read the (incorrect) tooltip instructions, and cleanse the effect.
3. The tooltip is still wrong.
4. Benediction syncs up poorly with it. Benediction is a 180s recast, and Living Dead is 300s. If you use Benediction on the first Living Dead use and want to have it up for the second use of it, you waste a recast.
5. You would think that the cooldown with the greatest penalties would have the shortest recast. That isn't the case.

I think the core problem here is that the devs are trying to make all of these invulns "unique" relative to Hallowed. But here's the underlying problem. Invulns are broken, and they trivialise tankbusters when you have four uses per fight between your two tanks. Let's get rid of all of them, and actually learn how to ration cooldowns again. Then you'll have at least one way to differentiate tanks who needed the crutch and those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Living Dead opinion

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1. The DRK's HP bar is the gauge that denotes that. There's always overhealing if you're healing anyone to full. Healing potencies vs. HP totals haven't ever been mathed out in a way to prevent that. It doesn't need any special gauge denotation because you can rule of thumb it by just filling their HP bar once.
2. A good tank will communicate to a new healer that they need healing done, either with a macro text or prior to planned usage of the cooldown. If you have no experience with any of the other jobs as a newbie, no one else's needs are intuitive for any set of skills.
3. The tooltip is not wrong. It's worded poorly, in your opinion. What it conveys is clear as day. You are actually reduced to 0 HP, but you are gifted 1 HP by Walking Dead, and this plays into the second half of the tooltip.
4. The amount of tank invulns that align with healer CDs is exactly zero in this game. If you're planning on using Living Dead, then you should be letting your healers know they will have to heal you without Benediction if the timers are out of sync, if the tank busters are that close together, which is rare.
5. Given its duration, its recast is warranted.

Invulns aren't fun to you, but for a lot of people they are. They allow for solos that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Rare clutch moments, as well as the knowledge that each tank has one skill that will make them unable to die for a short time, making the player feel tough. All of them have tangible draw backs except Hallowed. The only thing that needs to change relative to this, is PLD needs a slap to its DPS potential.

My personal, simple suggestion to remedy LD is change it so that:

DRK loses 50% of their HP every tick for 3-4 ticks. During which time the DRK cannot be reduced passed 1HP.

I think making job adjustments based on comparing its "overall kit" to another tank is not always the best answer, nor is their performance. Certain abilities just shouldn't be the way they are, and the people who want LD to stay the way it is fall into two camps: 1. elitists and 2. people who want their tank of choice to have advantages of DRK.

Just because we fix LD doesn't mean DRK is the only tank that needs adjustments. If we only seek to look at "overall kits" and how their performance in raids is, then we end up with the situation we have, where dumb abilities that need addressing go unchanged.

No, even now DRK is the MT tank of choice,
People who want LD to change is just the DRK elitist that want more some probably just want a panic button which shouldn't be even a thing if played right... and less good healer or just want to get it easy healer... LD being a 20s invul has it uses and nich, it' perfectly fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No, even now DRK is the MT tank of choice,
People who want LD to change is just the DRK elitist that want more some probably just want a panic button which shouldn't be even a thing if played right... and less good healer or just want to get it easy healer... LD being a 20s invul has it uses and nich, it' perfectly fine as is.

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Yeah, this is a terrible way to look at it.

Again. Fixing a single job ability doesn't mean other jobs should stay the way they are. The other tanks need their own issues addressed as well.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

It's a strawman, so it doesn't really mean anything.



Would I be pleased with it? Not necessarily, as arbitrarily swapping CD's between the tanks doesn't make a lot of sense. However, would I be bothered by having to use LD? Not really.

On another point, I said that can be the strongest invuln with proper play and coordination, and a WHM. In a general sense, Holmgang is the strongest invuln in a larger number of scenarios. That doesn't detract from LD's strength though. Try to come up with some legitimate points of contention next time.

Edit: WAR could even handle LD better than DRK can, since WAR has access to Thrill of Battle, Equilibrium, and Nascent Flash. So, sure, give me LD on WAR when I can heal a solid 50% of my own HP back minimum.

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Yes, finally you open your eye to the truth that DRK lack the resource to to handle LD and that make it a burden not something strong and amazing like you claim it to be. Have fun in solo content tho because if NF and NG doesn't change you won't be able to remove the debuff with it.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No, even now DRK is the MT tank of choice,
People who want LD to change is just the DRK elitist that want more some probably just want a panic button which shouldn't be even a thing if played right... and less good healer or just want to get it easy healer... LD being a 20s invul has it uses and nich, it' perfectly fine as is.

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20s invul? pffff* Nice try.

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

WAR would honestly work much better with Living Dead than DRK.

Nascent Flash alone would be enough to help purge the debuff, but the also have Equilibrium, and Thrill of Battle(Along with the baked in convalescence trait at level 80).

Meanwhile DRK has a pitiful GCD combo finisher, and Abyssal Drain which would have been a great help but was sadly nerfed to the ground this expansion.

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Yeah you're right, but then we might hear WAR complain how they have to reserve and wasting resource on LD and that they can't remove debuff when doing solo content. It's funny when other tank say the current LD is not bad but they don't want it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

1. The DRK's HP bar is the gauge that denotes that. There's always overhealing if you're healing anyone to full. Healing potencies vs. HP totals haven't ever been mathed out in a way to prevent that. It doesn't need any special gauge denotation because you can rule of thumb it by just filling their HP bar once.

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DRK HP can still drop to 1 again after receive the heal during walking dead if there're still an incoming attack. Also the healing could Cri.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Yes, finally you open your eye to the truth that DRK lack the resource to to handle LD and that make it a burden not something strong and amazing like you claim it to be. Have fun in solo content tho because if NF and NG doesn't change you won't be able to remove the debuff with it.

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DRK isn't supposed to be able to remove Walking Dead on their own, are you daft? The entire design of all of the invulns (barring HG) is that they each require healer intervention to keep the tank from dying immediately afterwards. As I already said, WAR is the only tank that can sometimes do it solo.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

DRK isn't supposed to be able to remove Walking Dead on their own, are you daft? The entire design of all of the invulns (barring HG) is that they each require healer intervention to keep the tank from dying immediately afterwards. As I already said, WAR is the only tank that can sometimes do it solo.

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Sorry to shattering your delusion Lucy but :

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

WAR absolutely can restore themselves up. Maybe not to full, but after my WAR uses HG in E8s the healers never touch him, he just heals himself back up to like 70-80%.

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We have a proof right here that WAR doesn't really need healer intervention. GNB doesn't need either at least up to e7s.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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Your post itself demonstrates how poorly people understand Living Dead. It's not your fault, the tooltip is terrible. You don't need to be max HP to cleanse the effect. You only need to be healed a total amount equal to your HP total. You'll occasionally even find experienced tanks and healers who don't fully understand how it works, surprisingly.

As a tank, you're continuously taking damage. You'll be taking damage while Walking Dead is active, too. Let's say you get healed for 75% of your health during the first 5 seconds of Walking Dead, but drop back down to 10% from incoming damage. You then get healed to 35% of your HP by 8 seconds into the cooldown. The Walking Dead effect ends, with you at 35% HP after 8 seconds total. You're not at 100%, but the effect is cleansed. It's also cleansed early, which means that the duration is contingent on when you receive that final HP of healing.

The reason why a gauge is required is two-fold:
1) it makes it more obvious to your team that the effect is taking place (wasn't that the reason why they introduced those massive picture gauges back in Stormblood just to make extra sure that you don't forget about Huton?)
2) To allow your healer to control precisely how much healing they're giving you, so that they know how much further they have to go, and so that they can pop the effect when it's safe to do so.

I agree that the tooltip is poorly worded. Another way of saying this is that it's wrong. These are equivalent ways of saying the same thing. And it's not just the main tooltip that you can see. It's also the buff/debuff text that your healer can see if they try to hover over the icon. The whole set of text blocks are incorrect.

Superbollide syncs up exactly with Benediction. 360 seconds is a multiple of 180 seconds

The duration argument doesn't make any sense. The effective duration of the ability only takes place when Walking Dead is activated. That means that its effective duration is anywhere from 1-9 seconds. If you hit 10 seconds, you die. Meeting the healing requirements early means that the ability ends prematurely. So if you get Benediction with at 1 second, the effect duration is 1 second. On average, when cleansed appropriately (i.e. tank does not die from the effect), it is the shortest duration invulnerability in the game, with the harshest penalty attached. The recast makes no sense whatsoever.

But once again, all these problems can be solved much more simply. Remove invulns from the game. The development team is incapable of salvaging this action. Just burn them all to the ground, and call it even.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Invulns aren't fun to you, but for a lot of people they are. They allow for solos that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Rare clutch moments, as well as the knowledge that each tank has one skill that will make them unable to die for a short time, making the player feel tough. All of them have tangible draw backs except Hallowed. The only thing that needs to change relative to this, is PLD needs a slap to its DPS potential.

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Except using invulns for "clutch moments" isn't how they're utilized once you understand tanking. They're used to cheese mechanics. Look at E8S. Tanks use their invulns are Morn Afa, which is supposed to be a party shared AoE. It isn't even a tank mechanic but healers don't want to deal with the amount of damage. So we pretend it doesn't exist. As Lyth alluded to, there have several fights where tankbusters don't even exist because you invuln all of them. Even in dungeon pulls, you pop your invuln on the biggest wall pull so the White Mage can spam Holy. Not exactly something I would describe as "clutch" gameplay.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Sorry to shattering your delusion Lucy but :



We have a proof right here that WAR doesn't really need healer intervention. GNB doesn't need either at least up to e7s.

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The only delusional one here is you. Believe me when I say that the only possible way WAR is healing 80% of their HP on their own is via the use of ToB, Equilibrium, and Nascent Flash during either Inner Release or with 2 Nascent Chaos charges. If the tankbuster lines up with all of those things, fantastic. The reality is that, however, most of the time it doesn't. I've played WAR long enough to know *quite* well how much it's capable of managing its own health bar in most situations. Once again, if things line up that nicely with the WAR's rotation, it's all well and good. Things rarely do line up that nicely, though.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

The only delusional one here is you. Believe me when I say that the only possible way WAR is healing 80% of their HP on their own is via the use of ToB, Equilibrium, and Nascent Flash during either Inner Release or with 2 Nascent Chaos charges. If the tankbuster lines up with all of those things, fantastic. The reality is that, however, most of the time it doesn't. I've played WAR long enough to know *quite* well how much it's capable of managing its own health bar in most situations. Once again, if things line up that nicely with the WAR's rotation, it's all well and good. Things rarely do line up that nicely, though.

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Then how about you wake up from this delusion of your?>

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

The entire design of all of the invulns (barring HG) is that they each require healer intervention to keep the tank from dying immediately afterwards.

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Fury 14 duty action? WAR and GNB need healer intervention as an ST after that? Nope.

Flame Tornado during conflag? WAR and GNB need healer intervention to keep them alive after that? Nope. Because after that it's a stack mechanic which healer taking care of by aoe heal everyone.

E7S's double laser that last only like 5 secs? Nope. Unless the GNB is MT which only make 2/4 of all tanks.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Then how about you wake up from this delusion of your?>

Fury 14 duty action? WAR and GNB need healer intervention as an ST after that? Nope.

Flame Tornado during conflag? WAR and GNB need healer intervention to keep them alive after that? Nope. Because after that it's a stack mechanic which healer taking care of by aoe heal everyone.

E7S's double laser that last only like 5 secs? Nope. Unless the GNB is MT which only make 2/4 of all tanks.

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GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely, or did you conveniently forget about the fact that Superbolide cuts your HP to 1 upon activation? As for WAR, as I already said, it's entirely possible for them to bring their own HP back under control in some situations. However, the time during the WAR's rotation in which the need to use Holmgang happens isn't always so kind. When *that* happens, yes, WAR needs help from a healer too. Honestly I'm beginning to question if you're just a troll or not. I refuse to believe that you can be this tone deaf or disingenuous unintentionally. It's really not even worth the time to try to correct all the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.

some ppl need to take out of his head the "LD is a 20s invul" idea, it's not, first of all if we somehow manage to squeeze all the efective duration it will be 18s at best, if living dead reach 10s the buff disapear and get wasted, if walking dead reach 10s you die and your party contribution it's wasted, for no mention you have to know the extact moment on each fight and have no delay whatsoever to fit the last second of living dead with the TB and get the proc wich it's imposible unless you are using 3º part programs or something similar.

Now the walking dead efective duration can only be archive by WHM, it's imposible for AST and SCH to max your hp in less than 1 second and most if not all healers preffer to get rid of the buff as soon as posible except unless you get any real good benefic from extend it as much as posible like several TB at once but those cases are extremly rare and not worthy the effort most of the time. LD it's just incredible taxin for AST and SCH and need to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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Agreed. To add to your point, Living Dead cannot be used to 'solo' or 'clutch' your way through anything. PLD makes you invulnerable for the duration. GNB can use the period that they are invulnerable to heal back a health buffer with Aurora and their standard combo. WAR has a lot of burst healing options at their disposal once they hit 1 HP on Holmgang. Living Dead cannot be used without the support (and often dedicated focus) of your healers.

And if you want to look at 'solo' in the strictest sense, if you ever activate Walking Dead on a solo PotD or HoH run, it's the only invuln that guarantees the end of your run.

While I can appreciate the aesthetic behind invulns, I think that both invulns (and raises, for that matter) are much too accessible in raid content. It would be fine if there was a party-wide cap on these abilities. But I think tanking would be more interesting without invulns.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Yeah, this is a terrible way to look at it.

Again. Fixing a single job ability doesn't mean other jobs should stay the way they are. The other tanks need their own issues addressed as well.

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Fixing is a term you use to repair a broken piece, LD is not broken all people want is this topic is straight upgrade. Tank is in a good balance atm with some up and down here and there but they are definately not broken at all.

It's not a question of balance. It's a question of functionality. Fix the incorrect tooltip, and fix the poor design, from human factors, to gui, to execution. It's broken. If you can't figure out how to fix it, just get rid of invulns altogether. We're better off without them.

It's been what, five years? We deserve better.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely, or did you conveniently forget about the fact that Superbolide cuts your HP to 1 upon activation? As for WAR, as I already said, it's entirely possible for them to bring their own HP back under control in some situations. However, the time during the WAR's rotation in which the need to use Holmgang happens isn't always so kind. When *that* happens, yes, WAR needs help from a healer too. Honestly I'm beginning to question if you're just a troll or not. I refuse to believe that you can be this tone deaf or disingenuous unintentionally. It's really not even worth the time to try to correct all the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.

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I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

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e5s- e7s don't require you to use invul if played correctly, pointless argument.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

e5s- e7s don't require you to use invul if played correctly, pointless argument.

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This in a nutshell. I struggle to fathom why Fury Fourteen from E5S is being picked as an examle for invulning, Shadow Wall + TBN + Reprisal / Feint / any form of healer shield and you are safe without it. Same with Flame Tornados in E6S and Stygian Stake + Silver Stake laser combo. Particularly the last of those is the only thing in E7S that does some actual damage to tanks.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

snip

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The claim that WAR is *always* capable of dealing with their own health management during/after Holmgang is, simply put, a lie. As I have said prior, there are times where the need to use Holm and/or Nascent lines up kindly with WAR's rotation and their ability to put out burst damage, and thus healing, for NF. That isn't always the case, however. If we're going to make a baseline statement then that statement must be based around the average, not the absolute best possible outcome. Am I capable of healing upwards of 120k HP on my WAR in a pinch? Yes. But only if I have access to ToB, Equilibrium, and I use 2 Inner Chaos charges as well as a Fell Cleave and Upheaval under Inner Release during the Nascent Flash window. Needless to say this is a situation that is simply not always going to be possible. A more realistic average would be to assume 1 Inner Chaos and one non-IR Fell Cleave which can be used during this theoretical average use of NF, as well as either a Maim or Storm's Path. Assuming that FC doesn't crit it will only heal you for around 10k-ish, while SP will heal for around 7-8k on its normal heal and around 4.5k on its NF heal, with IC generating around 25k healing. This totals out to 47k health restored, and it gets removed down to a maximum of 40k or even less if Storm's Path isn't used with its bonus heal from the ability itself.

Now, I can't say with exact certainty how much bosses this savage tier auto for as I don't care for the fights this tier, but Titan savage last tier auto attacked for 33k so we'll just assume that around a 40k auto is what you'll be eating here. This means that, from this average NF usage (which I'm even being generous on which moves get used in it in the first place) that leaves the WAR with more or less the exact amount of health to die to an auto attack, with either living or dying being able to be shifted between based on the raw variance of both the auto attack damage and heal values. So in this situation, even the WAR needs some assistance from the healer to not immediately drop dead. Of course, one could simply save ToB and/or Equilibrium to use in conjunction with Nascent Flash during this usage of Holmgang, and if the fight allows for you to do that, then that's great. That does not, however, remove the fact that that is simply not always going to be possible. That is why WAR's ability to manage its own health bar after using Holmgang is a variable statement, but primarily due to the fact that Nascent Flash's healing is based upon the damage they deal. Sometimes WAR needs no help, sometimes it does. Sometimes the time where NF is needed to be used in a fight lines up with WAR's burst in its rotation and the healers can ignore you, sometimes it doesn't line up so kindly and you need more attention. That's just the nature of damage-based healing mitigation.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

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Except your examples for E5-7 are for the OT being AoE healed. That's a false equivalent since they aren't actively being attacked, thus they wouldn't need healing regardless of their invuln usage. Instead of Gunbreaker using Superbolide on Fourteen's Fury, they use it on Crippling Blow as the MT. You will inevitably to the next auto without a healer spot healing. Aurora alone won't cover remotely enough damage to offset that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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Even then those examples are legit. Hell, even in E7s with WAR as MT, and using Holmgang on the "shared tether" and even outside their burst window, they can heal themselves till betwixt if ToB and Equilibrium are timed well, the rest is handled by NF. You don't always necessary need healers intervention here.

DRK Living Dead on the other hand can not be handled without a healers help. You'll always need a healer, but not always for Holmgang or Superbolide. Yet, this was Lucy was writing "quote on quote":

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely

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This statement is plain wrong. If the GNB would remain MT, they will likely need the healers attention.
E.g. in E8s you can invul Double Slap which applies a debuff. You can time it perfectly with a 10s invul and no tank swap is needed, but Superbolide and Holmgang are not enough to keep the boss and a tank swap becames necessary. GNB does not need a heal because they don't recieve any damage at that point, and they can heal themselves a little with Aurora and single target combo. I can imagine in an optimized run, healers leave GNB alone until they heal the party for the Light Rampant aoe.
Same goes for E7s, too. GNB doesn't need any heal if it's the first tank buster that gets invul'ed. The next damage they recieve doesn't happen before the next ~2 min.

Edit: btw when I play WAR in my static I tell them it's an insult to heal a warrior. While I say that as a joke there is still some truth behind it. Even in TEA you can heal yourself from 30% to 100% with NF and Rampart during your opener.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

This statement is plain wrong

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No, not it entirely is not. Aurora heals for roughly the same amount of HP as a non-crit Equilibrium while Brutal Shell's heal isn't even 10k. That's not even 40k health that the GNB is healing on their own. OT, MT, it doesn't matter in the slightest. If the GNB has to use Superbolide they will *always* require aid from a healer either immediately or very nearly afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

No, not it entirely is not.

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Yes, it is. You said GNB "***ALWAYS***" needs a healer. That is simply not true. GNB does NOT "***ALWAYS***" need healers intervention.
Back to E7s example: Aurora heals for roughly 35k if no regen tick crits. Brutal Shell heals for ~4.4k non-crit on hit, ~7k crit. On average, Brutal Shell heals for ~40k from the first tank buster/Superbolide usage to Betwixt, and you get 2 Aurora squeezed in. That's roughly 110k healing in ~2 min from GNB alone, and that amount is more than enough for the tank/healer stack.
So, it does matter whether GNB is MT or OT. You can leave them alone if they are OT.

The thing is: it's not used in actual practice. But that is a problem with pugs/non-optimized parties, not with the theory. I see so many White Mages using Bene on GNB OT when they should actually save it for the 2nd buster ~2 min later. Because if that hits a WAR or even DRK who are holding aggro, and they invul, it will require way more ressources to heal them. (On the other hand, I can't even blame them for their distrust on pug tanks. I've seen tanks not using a single cd during add phases there, even tho they don't need them for 2/3 min.)
I could go in E7s as GNB OT with a some friends and tell them to NOT heal me after the first invul, and there would be no issue. The first actual heal would be AFTER the stack before empty wave hits *just like the rest of the party*.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Yes, it is. You said GNB "***ALWAYS***" needs a healer. That is simply not true.

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GNB cannot heal its own health bar after a buster back up to a safe level in a short period of time. GNB therefore always requires the aid of a healer when using Superbolide. You are mistaking long-term minor healing as serving the same purpose as WAR's burst healing. The two are very different things and cannot be equated to one another or used for the same purpose.