BLM Raise.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Neat.
So people have options and can decide for themselves what they want. That sounds like healthy game design.

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FF14 is overall tuned well.

Which is why this one facet sticks out like a nose wart.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

FF14 is overall tuned well.

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As long as you ignore the issues that already exist within the sphere of the entire Healing role, you mean? The ones that have been cited multiple times as the reason we haven't seen a new Healing job in five years, in part because the needs for healing and resurrection go down as gearing increases? The ones that make Vercure laughable in the discussion of RDM's party utility?

Rez access doesn't particularly stick out to me in that regard; the only job that really pays a penalty for it is RDM, considering that SMN is regularly neck-and-neck with BLM while providing rezzes, passive healing, party damage buffs, and high mobility. Discussion of the disparity between RDM and SMN is already overblown in being extended to BLM with this thread, much less every job as you propose.
There are ways to balance access to rezzes without homogenizing both utility and healing, the latter of which I believe your suggestion would exacerbate.

Man nobody likes us summoners :C

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

There are ways to balance access to rezzes without homogenizing both utility and healing, the latter of which I believe your suggestion would exacerbate.

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No, my suggestion is pretty fair overall.

You get rid of it, or you share it and compensate the jobs held back because of it. This is just a high level overview because I'm tired of having this conversation and don't feel like digging up all my old posts on it.

And yes - FF14 is fairly well tuned, though it has glaring design problems. The two are related but very different parts of the game.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No, my suggestion is pretty fair overall.

You get rid of it, or you share it and compensate the jobs held back because of it. This is just a high level overview because I'm tired of having this conversation and don't feel like digging up all my old posts on it.

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Okay one, fairly certain the devs have gone on record that they don't want to go the WoW route of removing unique utilities from jobs. Whether you remove all of the rez skills from DPS or give them to everyone, that would be removing the unique aspect of them. Good luck selling that argument to the devs.

Two, the flaws in your original argument:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There is the built in cost of using Raise, the built in penalty of needing it through Resurrection Sickness, and lastly the penalty for simply having the ability to raise.

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"Built in cost of using Raise": RDM's MP pool is frequently toted as the counter for how many Verraises it has stocked, since its main rotation consumes a fraction of that MP. If you were to extend this to Melee and Ranged jobs, the majority of whom don't use MP for anything, we'd see largely the same. Sure there's the cast time aspect and the consumption of GCDs, but if casting it at all is worth it in the first place, all that means is Raising will still largely be hoisted onto the jobs who can mitigate that with Swiftcast, Presence of Mind/Thin Air, or Lightspeed.
And BLM gets infinite MP and four Swiftcasts every minute, largely used for mobility - which given hypothetical access to Raise, would put it above RDM on rez potential (since it's 4 rezzes + 1/Lucid).
Tell me again how giving rezzes to every job will level the field? Because not all jobs are equal in that regard, and each would have to be individually balanced to have it, which then ruins your thesis.

"Resurrection Sickness": Any living player - even with 75% stat reduction from Brink of Death - will always do more damage than a dead one. In the rare cases where the resurrection penalty is harsh enough that players simply can't afford it, groups will just forgo raising entirely in favor of wiping and restarting the encounter (assuming one screw-up doesn't already wipe, hi Ramuh), so "give everyone raise" is moot there too.

"Raise Ability Penalty": Again, the only job being taxed for it is RDM. One job. SMN has never been hit as harshly for having Resurrect as RDM has for its chain-Verraises, so the problem is less "some DPS can Raise too" and more "RDM can Swift-Verraise consecutively."
There are ways to address that fundamental issue directly without bringing every other job into it or rebalancing the concept of raises. Off the top of my head, you could have Verraise be put on a CD, or have it share charges or resources with a potent damage skill (balanced to compensate for the "tax" in encounters when raising isn't necessary). You don't need to reinvent the wheel just to get the wagon moving.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

one

Two.

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One: Lol. They also said they don't factor in healer DPS into damage checks. Times change - so do their design philosophies, especially as the tank and healer roles have shown, but it's equally apparent with the DPS if you're paying attention.

Two: You're right, additional changes would be needed.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And BLM gets infinite MP and four Swiftcasts every minute, largely used for mobility - which given hypothetical access to Raise, would put it above RDM on rez potential (since it's 4 rezzes + 1/Lucid).

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Oh gooooood.
I just thought about Rez on BLM as a conceptual thing. I didn't even think about how it would work with it's kit. Umbral ice and triple cast alone show me how wonky putting Rez on BLM could be.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

One: Lol. They also said they don't factor in healer DPS into damage checks. Times change - so do their design philosophies, especially as the tank and healer roles have shown, but it's equally apparent with the DPS if you're paying attention.

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It was a good enough argument for them to keep Trick Attack and bring back Bard Songs, so on some level they still believe it into Shadowbringers.

Change is inevitable, but specific change is not guaranteed. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to be swayed on this particular philosophy.

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Two: You're right, additional changes would be needed.

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Exactly. So with regards to the "Raise Tax", there's the simple solution of addressing the two DPS that already have Raise directly, OR the complicated one you suggest of giving Raise to everyone, rebalancing all of them to compensate, and reworking high-end encounters to account for the increased access to the ability to cheese.
Triplecast? Yeet, which means a whole redesign to BLM as a job to adjust its mobility. Tank immunities? Can't have someone immuning through a wipe and rezzing a healer to LB3.

I told you, I cannot count the ways that would be broken. You'd have to smash the entire game with a hammer, and all you would get out of it is more work for the devs and a lot of jobs being homogenized, all to end up at the same stage of "balance" you could get from addressing those original two instead.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Exactly. So with regards to the "Raise Tax", there's the simple solution of addressing the two DPS that already have Raise directly, OR the complicated one you suggest of giving Raise to everyone, rebalancing all of them to compensate, and reworking high-end encounters to account for the increased access to the ability to cheese.
Triplecast? Yeet, which means a whole redesign to BLM as a job to adjust its mobility. Tank immunities? Can't have someone immuning through a wipe and rezzing a healer to LB3.

I told you, I cannot count the ways that would be broken. You'd have to smash the entire game with a hammer, and all you would get out of it is more work for the devs and a lot of jobs being homogenized, all to end up at the same stage of "balance" you could get from addressing those original two instead.

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Uh...why?

Most auto-wipe scenarios bypass immunity, so I'm not seeing the problem here. Non-auto wipes are no different than shield stacking the healer / covering them so they can achieve the same thing.

And you honestly wouldn't have to worry about how high you can count if you would stop assuming I would change nothing else. Instead I'll get another 20 potency and we'll table this until the next expansion when Green mage comes in with raising and black mage damage.

Rez on BLM could work like BLU's Angels Whisper res and have a 5+ min cd despite being a gcd. Having a high mana cost and costing a gcd on top of a 5 min cd wouldn't be too broken, but I still dont know why blm would need it other than devaluing "res tax"

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Rez on BLM could work like BLU's Angels Whisper res and have a 5+ min cd despite being a gcd. Having a high mana cost and costing a gcd on top of a 5 min cd wouldn't be too broken, but I still dont know why blm would need it other than devaluing "res tax"

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You need only look at the other roles, and throw a raise on a majority of them and see the problems that causes.

Bonus points if you inexplicably dump one of them to the lowest damage while keeping the other at second highest, if not highest.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You need only look at the other roles, and throw a raise on a majority of them and see the problems that causes.

Bonus points if you inexplicably dump one of them to the lowest damage while keeping the other at second highest, if not highest.

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Overall the issue right now is more about SMN having a raise without tax, rather than BLM not having a rez then. :D

Raise on BLM would also be a nightmare to use. You cannot hardcast it because you lose your AF or UI, and keeping an instant cast for a raise would be a huge loss as well. I don't see why peoples are still arguing about that.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And you honestly wouldn't have to worry about how high you can count if you would stop assuming I would change nothing else.

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When did I say I assumed nothing else would be changed with your proposal? The entire post I made was just specifying a notorious handful of the changes necessary just to facilitate it.

Quite the opposite, in fact - I'm assuming you would change everything else.

My concern was never "you're forgetting you'd have to change everything top-down to do that," it was specifically the fact that you want to change everything top-down to fix a much smaller problem.
Not "that would be hard to do," but "you're making it harder than it needs to be."
That the problem is an imbalance between two jobs with the same utility, which you're elevating unnecessarily to at least 12 others. That you're making a mountain out of an anthill.

Your words were "Historically speaking, it's much more valid to give everyone access. And then you don't have to suffer an arbitrary none-to-15% tax." But if you have to rebalance everyone anyway just to fit it in, then either some jobs are still going to face taxes from their unique interactions with Raise, or they're going to lose access to iconic abilities that would have interacted with Raise (likely including Dualcast-Verraise near the top of that list), inevitably resulting in more homogenization of gameplay and utility. All for the sake of either effectively elevating RDM by diffusing the tax amongst the masses, or effectively nerfing SMN by buffing everyone around it. It makes your thesis self-defeating, because it would shift the tax onto job mechanics and gameplay instead of numbers; you cannot argue "every job will need to be adjusted to compensate for utility" and "nobody will have a tax" at the same time.

If it was a widespread systemic issue like what we've seen with the Healing model, then sure, cut the whole game open and start gutting it. But I can't abide justifying using a hammer ("give everyone Raise") for a problem like DPS rez tax, that could be fixed with a scalpel (balancing SMN and RDM's own utility taxes).