Add DPS roles to Warrior ?

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Originally Posted by SamRF

The proposal could be reinterpeted in a need for berserker DPS, regardless of being part of WAR or not. It could be a unique job too that, except for the energy, doesn't resemble current WAR at all. Example I gave is a one handed dual wielding berserker, which is quite unique for this game. Just something that's resembles that theme more than Monk does would already be great imo. I think GNB could potentially have fit it decently enough if it were a DPS.

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I think 'Risk Breaker' based on Vagrant Story and partially the basis for XIIs Foebreaker coukd work for this.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

The proposal could be reinterpeted in a need for berserker DPS, regardless of being part of WAR or not. It could be a unique job too that, except for the energy, doesn't resemble current WAR at all. Example I gave is a one handed dual wielding berserker, which is quite unique for this game. Just something that's resembles that theme more than Monk does would already be great imo. I think GNB could potentially have fit it decently enough if it were a DPS.

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It'd be cool to have a Dual Axe wielder that somehow got bonuses/buffs from critting/dhing/or DCing.

They could also make Berserker a tank if they wanted to. I could think of a few skills off hand, although a DPS Berserker would be way more fun, I think. Dual wield axes, full of adrenaline/rage, rampaging against mobs with quick and violent swings. It'd be fun! Likely not gonna happen, but I hope it does someday!

''Even though "Fury Berserker Warrior type" is the entire lore and aesthetic of the job. It's just about focusing it into a protective force rather than an indiscriminate destructive one''

This is the sentence or so, of the thread. Derplander™ from the get go, covered this well. In the thematic cgi, its all too evident what warrior is conceptually. Charge, self sustain and berserk - right until you catch the hit that stops you. And then you got friends. The other tanks used to have a distinct variance in % direction on this; and it was fun. Now, it would appear homogeneity has once again left many disillusioned or homeless and in that same vein, you see why older/long term mmo veterans fear the word 'simplification'. It scarcely is as good as people like to dress up.

As for your proposed changes, I can appreciate the 'theme' of what you are implying all too well. Anyone who played Aion and enjoyed Gladiator in PvP with an extendable polearm and pure rage, will know exactly what you mean. But as many have implied here in their own way; when you change a class/job, that doesn't happen in isolation. Change has a inevitable knock-on effect and because of that, the development tie down would be all too much. Especially for a dev team that killed stance dancing and any other form of tank complexity.

What you are asking for isn't just a affront to the trinity struggle in FFXIV as people claim; but one of pure engagement design. The power of a Tank, put form into a damage forward dps class is VERY powerful in the right hands. As any PvP player across the years will attest especially. With little support (assuming classic fantasy archetypes are observed) it can negate the need for the rest of the wider team entirely. Compounding the concerns others have raised here.

Other games in this dwindling genre, are far better equipped to deal with what you are asking for. Thats the real line that perhaps was unspoken and people don't want to admit, rather than simply telling you to go to them. But nonetheless, warrior SHOULD return to being the main aggressor of the 3 as per its original design direction that I feel is simply diversity. It just can't be a dps. Not without damaging the current health and balance (in terms of player %) of the wider whole as a result.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think 'Risk Breaker' based on Vagrant Story and partially the basis for XIIs Foebreaker coukd work for this.

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I would love a Riskbreaker job, but I think Gunbreaker steps on the "special forces soldier" type job fantasy, but I would relish to be wrong.

As for the subject of the thread, it's funny that WoW was cited for having multiple specs per class yet when they tried doing what the OP suggests, adding an option to play a tank as dps, they walked it back within an expansion. Protection-spec Warriors had the "Gladiator Stance" talent option in Warlords of Draenor that allowed players to finally have a sword and shield damage dealer (sounds familiar...) that they quickly yanked out when Legion was in development because it was too much to balance around.

Would I like to wield a big axe and deal damage? Yeah, but I'm comfortable enough with the game now that I respect that every job has its own fantasy of abilities, weapons, role, and gear. I was angry that Gunbreakers were revealed as tanks too for similar reasons, but I decided to bite the bullet and tank with a Dark Knight and now not only is Gunbreaker my new main, I really love to tank now in general.

Back in the days of ARR due to how they had SCH and SMN branch off the base Arcanist job as different roles I had hoped they would eventually make role branching via soulstone for the other base jobs as well. But because of SCH and SMN they scrapped any idea of doing so. So yeah you book worms ruined it for everyone else :P lol

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

Since basicly Warriors can go Tank or DPS mode (Offtank in 8 man dungeons) but Warrior class (Berserker subjob maybe) for people who want just dps for fun ?

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i think all tanks should have this option, lose some hp to games some dps, call it Reckless Stance.

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Originally Posted by Hank_Hotspur

Would I like to wield a big axe and deal damage? Yeah, but I'm comfortable enough with the game now that I respect that every job has its own fantasy of abilities, weapons, role, and gear. I was angry that Gunbreakers were revealed as tanks too for similar reasons, but I decided to bite the bullet and tank with a Dark Knight and now not only is Gunbreaker my new main, I really love to tank now in general.

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I do think all this aversion to tanking is usually baseless anxiety, that people would get over if they just tried tanking.
Want to play a Berserker class with a giant axe? Then just play Warrior!
Besides, surely the whole 'feel' of that archetype includes doing whatever you want, instead of following another players lead.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

The proposal could be reinterpeted in a need for berserker DPS, regardless of being part of WAR or not. It could be a unique job too that, except for the energy, doesn't resemble current WAR at all. Example I gave is a one handed dual wielding berserker, which is quite unique for this game. Just something that's resembles that theme more than Monk does would already be great imo. I think GNB could potentially have fit it decently enough if it were a DPS.

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The issue is that by the time Gunbreaker would even be on the table we had four melee physical DPS. As is the game should have around 20 jobs before another melee DPS is fair game. And even then who knows what job could be on the table. Beastmaster, Rune Knight, something original or more out there like Astrologian/Gunbreaker were for their respective categories? I'm definitely not saying there is anything wrong with requesting it, just pointing out they could go another way.

If you mean that SE should add something like specs in wow then sorry but they are never going to do it again, ever.
They had a ton of problems when they created summoner and schoolar, these were sharing a lot of skills with each other and were basically the same class, but that didnt worked out and they completely gone away from that idea.
Schoolar and summoner was basically like this, a healer and dps jobs tied to the same class just like in wow.

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Originally Posted by SkylineSenpai

i think all tanks should have this option, lose some hp to games some dps, call it Reckless Stance.

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We kind of had this in Stormblood. You had a tank stance with enmity, bulk and a damage penalty, as well as a separate DPS stance. Most of the DPS gain wasn't in the DPS stance itself, but rather the absence of the tank stance.

This doesn't really work, because how much damage is superior in every facet of FFXIV. Even if you are not a hardcore raider, if you can kill stuff faster, you generally have a higher chance of success and get to play more of the game in a shorter time, especially with how generous healing is. If we brought back some kind of DPS stance for tanks, unless they give us like a 75% HP penalty or something we are just going to be using it most of the time outside of dungeon trash pulls.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

We kind of had this in Stormblood. You had a tank stance with enmity, bulk and a damage penalty, as well as a separate DPS stance. Most of the DPS gain wasn't in the DPS stance itself, but rather the absence of the tank stance.

This doesn't really work, because how much damage is superior in every facet of FFXIV. Even if you are not a hardcore raider, if you can kill stuff faster, you generally have a higher chance of success and get to play more of the game in a shorter time, especially with how generous healing is. If we brought back some kind of DPS stance for tanks, unless they give us like a 75% HP penalty or something we are just going to be using it most of the time outside of dungeon trash pulls.

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Yep, we had the option and then due to the DPS meta mindset you were actively frowned upon if you used tank stance as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

We kind of had this in Stormblood. You had a tank stance with enmity, bulk and a damage penalty, as well as a separate DPS stance. Most of the DPS gain wasn't in the DPS stance itself, but rather the absence of the tank stance.

This doesn't really work, because how much damage is superior in every facet of FFXIV. Even if you are not a hardcore raider, if you can kill stuff faster, you generally have a higher chance of success and get to play more of the game in a shorter time, especially with how generous healing is. If we brought back some kind of DPS stance for tanks, unless they give us like a 75% HP penalty or something we are just going to be using it most of the time outside of dungeon trash pulls.

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If you used tank stance in Stormblood for more than the necessary grabbing of aggro, you were bad. Which is what you, yourself, stated. Also, people - namely WAR and DRK players - dumped tank stance during trash because they had unique AOE interactions. Dark Knights could essentially become beyblades, and Warriors? Well, decimate, in a word.

Please add dps roles to all tanks and healers. As an AST, my one button spam matters.
Also add healer role to RDM and add tank roles to ninja and monk. They deserve it.

I thought GNB was currently the highest dps tank so why should warriors get a dps role. And if they were given such why shouldn't other jobs get additional roles. Maybe give each 3 specs with a talent tree. Maybe one can have 4 and one can have 2... boy that sounds familiar. Wonder where I've seen that before???

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I thought GNB was currently the highest dps tank so why should warriors get a dps role. And if they were given such why shouldn't other jobs get additional roles. Maybe give each 3 specs with a talent tree. Maybe one can have 4 and one can have 2... boy that sounds familiar. Wonder where I've seen that before???

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Back before the great homogenization of Shadowbringers I always considered the jobs essentially specs.

You had:

Warrior, the DPS spec tank
Paladin, the phyical mitigation tank
Dark Knight, the magic mitigation tank

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Yep, we had the option and then due to the DPS meta mindset you were actively frowned upon if you used tank stance as a tank.

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I mean there was literally no benefit to it. Using a tank cooldown gave you more than enough wiggle room to eat every single tank buster in a fight, and auto damage was generally low enough you could just Eos+Regen it for the most part.

Meanwhile every single fight has a hard enrage that's always a threat.

It wasn't even useful as a progression tool because you want your healers to know the ebb and flow of damage so they can properly allocate their cooldowns.

So it provided no additional safety unless you were falling asleep at the keyboard, and it nerfed your damage by an absolutely absurd amount. Why would you ever turn it on?

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

WAR is about watching Curious Gorge mess up over and over again, I mean getting really mad and hitting people.

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WAR is about using the rage of the Inner Beast to bolster one's physical prowess in the defense of your allies. Go rewatch the 50-60 cutscenes for WAR. Curious Gorge only manages to truly control his Inner Beast when protecting others.

Honestly, I will be surprised if SE started to introduce a Role Shift system into each Job later and manage to make it work. SMN and SCH did greatly influence their idea of adding on classes for spliting into two different Jobs with different Roles but that was more due to not being prepared for the potential issues that would happen when you have to create gear and skills for two different Role paths.

A Role Shift system may work if they can make it work but will require some concepts added as well to readjust the job's gear, stats and skill functions such as new skills to replace the old skills to fit their new role, maybe a Passive skill to change the effects of specific stats and amount of armor their gear provides such as Tenacity is changed to provide boost to damage, crit chance, and other damage stuff instead to replace the reduce damage aspect of Tenacity and even sacrifice Armor defense and HP to compensate for their higher DPS as a DPS role, and consideration into what each Job can provide in their different roles such as a Monk can be turned into a Counter Tank and Red Mage can become more of a Double Cast Healer and even provide Double HP regen on allies.


Vanity alone is not enough to keep certain players into a certain Job because players are looking for more than just Vanity style but also the role function to go with it.

For example, there are some players looking for a more heavy hitting Weapon DPS Job with the common demand being a Sword type but all heavy weapons so far have gone into Tank Jobs. These players want to feel that their weapon is a Heavy hitter but as a Tank that will never happen because the Tank Role is to be the one taking the Heavy hits rather than cause the heavy hits themselves with their Giant weapon of choice. SAM is a sword user but they are high DPS damage through the Vanity of being a fast agile sword user and not a heavy weapon type export which is why SAM does not cut it for some players since by vanity design they are like sword user assassins than a large weapon melee attacker.

In honestly, I have concerns for this game if their only way of getting players to play Tank Jobs is to make majority of popular demanded Melee Jobs into Tank Jobs since that will also affect creativity of designing a Job as well on both Job's function side and vanity side.

I recently tried classic WoW and tanking as a fury warrior was so much fun, that I would not mind that sort of play style in FFXIV. Not sure if healers would like the shift, since healers would just spam heal to keep the tank alive.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

In honestly, I have concerns for this game if their only way of getting players to play Tank Jobs is to make majority of popular demanded Melee Jobs into Tank Jobs since that will also affect creativity of designing a Job as well on both Job's function side and vanity side.

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"majority"
There are 4 Tanks and the 4th only showed up this expansion, of those 4 only 2 of them use heavy weapons, one is Warrior that was a launch Tank, the other is Dark Knight, so they've added one heavy weapon job to Tanks in 6 years.
Most were also requesting things like SAM and RDM, now had they gone with SAM as the tank of HW there'd be merit to the argument they tried to make people tank with a popular job but Tanks deserve cool jobs too and I don't view DRK and GNB as that, simply Tanks getting cool things to play with too.

Would be cool to branch off like that or maybe the off tank turns into a DPS while in combat with a click of a skill.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

"majority"
There are 4 Tanks and the 4th only showed up this expansion, of those 4 only 2 of them use heavy weapons, one is Warrior that was a launch Tank, the other is Dark Knight, so they've added one heavy weapon job to Tanks in 6 years.
Most were also requesting things like SAM and RDM, now had they gone with SAM as the tank of HW there'd be merit to the argument they tried to make people tank with a popular job but Tanks deserve cool jobs too and I don't view DRK and GNB as that, simply Tanks getting cool things to play with too.

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I've said this before, but the heavy two handed or berserker like one handed is a very popular melee archetype but currently is only available for tanks (WAR, DRK, GNB). It's not a stretch to me to think that they refuse to add such job to melee with the sole purpose of getting people to play Tank. I think plenty of WAR/DRK/GNB players don't care about it being a tank and would rather have them being dps, they just don't want to play the alternative dps choices because none other fits that aesthetic.

One thing I've tried is glam Ninja into a wildling looking dual wielding berserker with long blades. It sort of works, treating the ninjitsus as barbarian rituals or something. Would be epic imo if we get some actual glam jobs (same job but different animations).

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I've said this before, but the heavy two handed or berserker like one handed is a very popular melee archetype but currently is only available for tanks (WAR, DRK, GNB).

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There is SAM. Also NIN has a lot of weapons which are glamourwise longer & broader than some PLD- or GNB-Weapons.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I've said this before, but the heavy two handed or berserker like one handed is a very popular melee archetype but currently is only available for tanks (WAR, DRK, GNB). It's not a stretch to me to think that they refuse to add such job to melee with the sole purpose of getting people to play Tank. I think plenty of WAR/DRK/GNB players don't care about it being a tank and would rather have them being dps, they just don't want to play the alternative dps choices because none other fits that aesthetic.

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Or maybe SEs vision is that heavy-weapons jobs are better suited to tanks, given their uh... tanky nature. Warrior as a tank is 100% suited to the berserker archetype. I'm honestly surprised that provoke was a PLD skill in ARR and not a WAR skill considering how well it fits WARs theming of being relentless and generating a lot of attention (enmity). Just because people want to play a tanky job but only want to play DPS doesn't change the fact that heavy weapon classes are way better suited at being tanks.

Job diversity is fine (I'd love a magic tank), but don't pretend like the decisions that SE has made in job classification aren't rational. DRK and GNB are far better arguments for DPS than WAR, and that's simply due to how they are in other games.

If you want to play DPS Warrior, you can always come to Baldesion Arsenal and enjoy all the Boost/Double Edge/Martialist shenanigans your heart desires.

Had the arcanist experiment worked out you’d have your wish and all base jobs would have two options. I really loved this concept. Sadly it was a nightmare for them to balance and thus is not going to happen. However, warrior fits the tank aspect just fine. They chose to make it a tank so it is a tank. Changing it won’t happen. Advocating for a new brute dps class is probably your best bet.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Or maybe SEs vision is that heavy-weapons jobs are better suited to tanks, given their uh... tanky nature. Warrior as a tank is 100% suited to the berserker archetype. I'm honestly surprised that provoke was a PLD skill in ARR and not a WAR skill considering how well it fits WARs theming of being relentless and generating a lot of attention (enmity). Just because people want to play a tanky job but only want to play DPS doesn't change the fact that heavy weapon classes are way better suited at being tanks.

Job diversity is fine (I'd love a magic tank), but don't pretend like the decisions that SE has made in job classification aren't rational. DRK and GNB are far better arguments for DPS than WAR, and that's simply due to how they are in other games.

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This is beside the point and not part of that particular discussion (thread within thread), it's the fact that there is not a single berserky type melee dps that is what could drive you to think SE does it on purpose to get people to play Tank. Note that I'm using "berserky" very broad, DRK and GNB also falling under that category. It's about being more of a smasher, swinging weapons, explosive, brute force .. you get the idea. DRG, SAM and NIN are more precise and refined. Monk can somewhat fit that but it's too shaolin kungfu-ish and mystical themed. If you like this "berserky" theme you're forced to play tank while ~all other MMOs have some equivalent of that as dps (as well as tank) and it's usually a very popular class.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

There is SAM. Also NIN has a lot of weapons which are glamourwise longer & broader than some PLD- or GNB-Weapons.

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Yeah I've talked about NIN glamour possibilities in that very post from which you quoted. If someone got more suggestions for attires and weapons that make NIN look like a berserker, I'd love to hear.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

There is SAM. Also NIN has a lot of weapons which are glamourwise longer & broader than some PLD- or GNB-Weapons.

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I already mentioned SAM in my last post and as I stated SAM is a Sword Assassin DPS Job thus plays more into the Vanity of being fast sword attacking Assassin. It is not about the heavy weight of the weapon performing brutal damage that rips and tear apart enemies but being fast and agile for quick kills. The Job storyline even emphasize on how SAM is a Sword Assassin as our Master is literally the Batman of Othard that used his Katana to quickly kill corrupt political member of society and other criminals during the night then vanish into the shadows before he "retired" to Eorzea for his reasons.

NIN is the fast attacking dagger/dual sword (based on weapon glamour) Job that focus on combining Ninjutsu and fast attacking dual weapon attacks. They are the classic rogue/assassin job for this game thus they play as that being focus on fast and agile attacks over brutal hard hits.

There is more than just about looking like a brutal heavy hitter through just glamouring your gear. The job needs to emphasize that the player is playing a heavy hitter job and even show it through their attack animations and job role.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

"majority"
There are 4 Tanks and the 4th only showed up this expansion, of those 4 only 2 of them use heavy weapons, one is Warrior that was a launch Tank, the other is Dark Knight, so they've added one heavy weapon job to Tanks in 6 years.
Most were also requesting things like SAM and RDM, now had they gone with SAM as the tank of HW there'd be merit to the argument they tried to make people tank with a popular job but Tanks deserve cool jobs too and I don't view DRK and GNB as that, simply Tanks getting cool things to play with too.

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I am speaking out of more concern that SE may go a route where the only thing keeping Tank Job interesting for players is the "cool" factor instead of actual interesting gameplay and design.

It will be like if they decide to release Beastmaster as a Tank job that focus on the Player taking damage to build Fury for the AI pet that is immune to damage so it can hit harder because it gets more "angry" the more the player takes damage.

That is a separate issue from the one you stated about Tanks having all the heavy hitting jobs, the Tanks could all be magic cyborgs and are they fun to play could still be an issue. Giving Tanks fun and interesting jobs has nothing to do with are they fun?

I'd see nothing wrong with making BeastMaster a Tank, or a DPS or hell a healer whatever they wanted to do with it so long as it was fun to play, all roles get "cool" jobs and that's subjective. There are people still sore SAM isn't a Tank and people still sore DRK isn't a DPS that's simply people having different views. To some all Tanks are boring archetypes they have no interest in player and perhaps that BeastMaster Tank has the game play and appeal they're waiting for, same for any role.

I personally find it a little absurd that Tanks of all roles is being called out for getting all the cool stuff when we have 4 flavors of "Knight in plate" and yes I'm counting GNB because outside of it's AF it's forced into the plate with the others and other then the "booms" swings a mostly one handed blade.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I personally find it a little absurd that Tanks of all roles is being called out for getting all the cool stuff when we have 4 flavors of "Knight in plate" and yes I'm counting GNB because outside of it's AF it's forced into the plate with the others and other then the "booms" swings a mostly one handed blade.

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I have plenty of issues with DPS and healer Jobs but I am focusing on Tank currently because of the talk about Tank getting a option to become a DPS.

As I mention in my other post, Role Shift system can be possible if SE put effort into making it work by providing certain adjustments to stats, job mechanic, and change/replace certain skills based on their Role Shift thus a successful Role Shift system can provide current jobs with other Role Options such as Red Mage can become a Double cast Healer, Monk can become a Counterattack Tank, SAM can become a Parry Tank, Astrologian can become a DPS Celestrial attacker, and even a Warrior can become a DPS Brute force hitter.

I already agree in the past in old posts we need more Tank jobs but I also want them to get creative with the Tank Jobs beyond them just being "cool" looking. Also, don't want the future of Tanks to be "only sword" jobs and this warrior with a Axe.

get more creative with weapon choices for Tanks such as Hammers that can act as a debuff tank that smash enemy armor and weapons to make them and allies cause more damage to the enemies and enemies cause less damage, the defensive Martial Arts styles that focus being attacked then countering that attack, maybe even unarmed Magic Tank user that focus on creating magical barriers and instant cast magic attacks, and maybe dive into Garlean theme jobs such as the Gun-Shield job for a heavy shield defender type Tank that focus on using the Gun-shield to attack and defend.

I'd play a warrior...

... if they could equip a sword.

Axes don't work for me. Especially 2h axes.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I have plenty of issues with DPS and healer Jobs but I am focusing on Tank currently because of the talk about Tank getting a option to become a DPS.

As I mention in my other post, Role Shift system can be possible if SE put effort into making it work by providing certain adjustments to stats, job mechanic, and change/replace certain skills based on their Role Shift thus a successful Role Shift system can provide current jobs with other Role Options such as Red Mage can become a Double cast Healer, Monk can become a Counterattack Tank, SAM can become a Parry Tank, Astrologian can become a DPS Celestrial attacker, and even a Warrior can become a DPS Brute force hitter.

I already agree in the past in old posts we need more Tank jobs but I also want them to get creative with the Tank Jobs beyond them just being "cool" looking. Also, don't want the future of Tanks to be "only sword" jobs and this warrior with a Axe.

get more creative with weapon choices for Tanks such as Hammers that can act as a debuff tank that smash enemy armor and weapons to make them and allies cause more damage to the enemies and enemies cause less damage, the defensive Martial Arts styles that focus being attacked then countering that attack, maybe even unarmed Magic Tank user that focus on creating magical barriers and instant cast magic attacks, and maybe dive into Garlean theme jobs such as the Gun-Shield job for a heavy shield defender type Tank that focus on using the Gun-shield to attack and defend.

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Ultimately they tried that road with Summoner and Scholar. It didn't work. If anything they would want to split them apart instead of tie them together the way they are currently. So it just doesn't seem like a road they'd like to do.

I would like a mage tank certainly, but I don't see it happening, much like a physical healer won't.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Ultimately they tried that road with Summoner and Scholar. It didn't work. If anything they would want to split them apart instead of tie them together the way they are currently. So it just doesn't seem like a road they'd like to do.

I would like a mage tank certainly, but I don't see it happening, much like a physical healer won't.

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Mage Tank is still possible due to Spellblade/Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight Job (depends on the FF game for its name) in FF series as it is a Job that has incarnated as Magic Tank or a Melee Magic sword DPS. However, it is most famous for being a Magic Tank due to Spells that provide Shell to increase Magic defense and spells that give them the ability to reduce elemental damage and natural magic damage from magic attacks.

Though being a Sword user Job that infuses Magic into their sword and create barriers on themselves to reduce damage it may be a bit too generic to have a 4th sword Tank job when we already have three Tanks that uses a type of sword.

I don't expect a magic tank partially because we are already at four tanks and likely to be slowing down, and partially because they've made it rather abundantly clear that tanks are going to be DoW. I'd sooner hope for a sixth DoM exclusive role to balance the slots than a DoM Tank, especially as it would likely come with a DoW Healer which doesn't balance the difference much.

Never going to happen. They have already stated they won't do another class that splints into 2 different roles. Smn/Sch has been a nightmare for the to balance and they don't want to have to do it again