Dear Physical Ranged DPS and..

Hey, when you're done with that high horse, I need to make some meatballs.

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Originally Posted by Kraniel

So you opened this thread because you were playing an extremely complex DPS class, and while you were too busy with all the complex stuff, you didn't dodge an AoE, and died because the guy who was playing an extremely easy healer class wasn't on their toes to insta-Rescue you out of it ? :////

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Why is this so detailed? O:

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Originally Posted by Averax

DNC and BRD don't have to do anything extra. Their utility is mostly baked into their damage rotations. Bards have to sing no matter what, it's part of their rotation. Dancers have to dance no matter what, standard step and technical step are their hardest hitting abilities.

You suggest making MCH effectively a straight up loss to bring along, but the reason it needs to do more damage is because that's all it brings (and a damage reduction skill). It needs to bring enough of its own damage to make it appealing enough to take up a slot reserved for a dancer or bard.

DNC and BRD are competitive because they raise everybody else's damage instead of doing a bunch themselves. The extra damage they make people do is counted towards their personal damage.

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Originally Posted by Averax

The guy is implying that they need to do less personal damage than dancer and bard because those two have more responsibility.

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the post you originally quoted literally stated "

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Originally Posted by Miminming

even if MCH dont have any utility its still on top in pyshical ranged RDPS, yes RDPS ....BRD and DNC should be buffed to have more closer RDPS to MCH, ...if not more (because MCH can ignore other member to dish out their best rdps while DNC and BRD need a more strict teamplay for that)

saying damage buff utility blabla is pointless if you look at RDPS... the include that in the number already...

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while he did say "if not more because...." that is something one could argue, though its mostly a different discussion that is not specific to physical ranged but to every class and the general value of damage buffs, in no way however did his post say "dnc and brd should deal more personal dps than mch or that this had anything to do with extra responsibilitys on their part.

Shouldn't the machinist be the highest physical dps since it uses guns and launchers. To me the guns should be way more powerful than any close range melee classes weapon.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Shouldn't the machinist be the highest physical dps since it uses guns and launchers. To me the guns should be way more powerful than any close range melee classes weapon.

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They shoot pellets of aether rather than bullets, so who knows how the ballistics work.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Shouldn't the machinist be the highest physical dps since it uses guns and launchers. To me the guns should be way more powerful than any close range melee classes weapon.

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One word dispels (lol) this notion.

Magic.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Dear physical ranged DPS.

You are not going to get buffed.


....If Square-Enix learned anything from the last time you asked to have increased damage.

I understand some of you are new and arent quite familiar with the mechanics and design of FFXIV but, yes, your ability to be at long distance, plus have no cast times, means you absolutely must have lower damage from other roles who are faced with more mechanics to their role.

--FACT--

Square-Enix already boosted physical range dps damage once before....


and then reverted it.

This is because boosting physical ranged dps damage equates to adding cast times to their attacks.

People did not like this even more than having low damage as a ranged dps.

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Please be a troll. Please be a troll. Please be a troll.

But really, that's a load of bull. Everything about that is incorrect. You removed context of a huge part of stormblood where stormblood machinist was one of the highest DPS classes in the game, it's just people didn't like the way it played at the time. The whole reason they tend to have lower DPS is because of the whole buffing bs. Having them THIS low, especially MCH, is exorbitant and odd.

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Melee.

You will not have positionals removed from the role.
If positionals were to be removed, the damage of melee DPS would need to be lowered, as this is a mechanic that this role is specific to and is what gives it even the ever most slight complexity.

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I don't see how this would happen. Have you heard of Omnipositional bosses? You know, like bosses that don't have positionals? No? Then go fight some. These bosses have no positionalls to hit so I don't get the purpose of saying they'd need to be nerfed when these kinds of situations already exist and the difficulty in melee then is uptime.

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All DPS.

The game is already significantly simplified...

It is already extremely extremely out hand how simple this game has become.

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Just gonna ask you to stop. This argument means nothing unless you are a tank. Most classes are getting simpler to compensate for making fights more complex. If you've not raided in Heavensward then it might seem like things are getting simpler for the worst but 90% of the simpler changes were for the better from HW to STB. SHB is up for debate but I think certain jobs post launch when they got patched got to their best forms since their conception. If you think complex combat/rotatins is what makes this game good, then go someplace else. Play something else. While I do ask that people stop asking for simplifying things, it's not the players burden to stop asking it's the dev teams' burden to stop listening and blaming the playerbase for the few voices they can't control is toxic.

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Side note:

End game raiders.

Stop asking for buffs to your specific job or any specific job and compostion.

It has already been said by Square-Enix it is possible to clear content with any composition of varying roles (this means do not double up on BLM as an example.)

If you're failing to meet DPS requirements, consider changing your tactics and rotations.

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Fun fact, most of the raiders that do this are the ones that really like a job and want it in a better place or cleared as their job or another job and still want it in a better place. So you can either stop trolling or stop lumping in everyone as the same just because they have similar ideas for what they want to do. I say most because not all of them, of course, are the same.

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Originally Posted by Canada_bangs

Why is this so detailed? O:

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Because you and i both know all too well about these players who get mad when healers don't give them the "full babysit package" ;D

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Also while I'm here...

Healers...

So long as you fail to keep dps and tanks alive because you refuse to cast or use a "GCD" heal/shield to push more damage, Square-Enix should not, and I encourage them -to not- add complexity to the healer role.

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Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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Are the SCHs not healing damage that needs to be healed, or do you think every little scrape needs to be taken care of? Most WHMs I've run into can't stand to see someone missing 10 hp without dropping a cure II.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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But did you die? If so, was it from unavoidable damage or from undodged AoE and mechanics? I very rarely see a healer who lets the party die by unavoidable damage while they were just dpsing.

I've seen people get upset when their health is lacking and see the healer dps, even though they don't die (idk why you're complaining then). If the healer knows the fight, they can safely let your HP edge while they wait till you either took sufficient damage to justify the heal, or they wait on oGCD cooldown. Staying alive is all that matters, amount of HP is not.

Many 8 man healers overheal so you'll often find 1 healer mostly dps, especially when the other healer refuses to dps at all.

Someone has a chip on their shoulder

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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This comment is why good healers often don't get coms.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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Cause most Scholar healing comes from oGCD and are strong ?
This isn't because you don't see Scholar cast bar be a heal that he doesn't heal.
That's a misconception A LOT of player do. Thinking scholar doesn't heal at all while he does, but it's "invisible" and so it's better thinking that's the other who do all the work.
It's not.

65% of player complaining about scholar not healing don't understand how it's played.

OR...

The other healer is panicked everytime and overheal like crazy.
Succor/adlo spamming is absolutely not efficient from a healing/dps/mana perspective.

Healer role is already in a bad spot gameplay-wise to don't need people's whining while they don't understand a thing at it

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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I heal as much as neccessary for everyone to survive, given they play somewhat decently.
If I know for a fact you can't die (not even from stupidity) for the next 20s, I'm not going to heal right away. I'll wait until some strong oGCD comes off cd and let natural hp reg do its thing while I do something useful like using the time to dps. And if I have a co-healer who fights for every bit of hps and immediately heals everyone to full hp... why should I start a dick fight and do the same? In that case my time and resources are spent much better on dps.

It's not a healer's responsibility to heal every little bit of missing HP, it's only to make sure everyone survives. If you didn't die, you have no reason to complain. And just because you don't see a healer spamming GCD heals doesn't mean he isn't healing. Where do think the sparkly little Seraph or the fairy hot comes from? Or that blue circle on the ground? From a SCH actively healing.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Are the SCHs not healing damage that needs to be healed, or do you think every little scrape needs to be taken care of? Most WHMs I've run into can't stand to see someone missing 10 hp without dropping a cure II.

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not healing at all really. But more importantly, also not shielding people either....
Never rezzing if dps makes a mistake.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, this is about 65% of all SCH I've grouped with. Even in 8mans and alliance raids as the other healer, I swear SCH think the fairie is all they need to do for healing

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Did you know the game actively encourages healing at the last minute through extra lb generation, Sch is an ogcd powerhouse when used correctly and ogcds have no cast times you won't see it, then players also have a tool (that is most annoying for healer players) that allows them to turn off all effects, this includes stuff like sacred soil can't tell you how many tanks run out of this for no reason.

Usually if a sch is just standing there dpsing they have already planned ahead and deem it safe to do so, they also probably expected the party to not take any avoidable damage thus it is on the offending party member/s fault for taking that damage then it goes a priority healing system depending on situation.

The days of the octopus nope gif on page 1 of the gif thread are far far behind current sch.

It would be nice if MCH could be stronger as some melees w/ raid buffs and utility. Like at least, MCH could be at the same dmg output like them. (DRG? I think)
Technician has a long cooldown, works at 1 or 2 aoe's at most and doesnt increase any damage. Once dead, you'll have to recollect enough heat and battery gauge (if Barrel Stabilizer on CD, which should be always). Just my 2 cents though.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Did you know the game actively encourages healing at the last minute through extra lb generation, Sch is an ogcd powerhouse when used correctly and ogcds have no cast times you won't see it, then players also have a tool (that is most annoying for healer players) that allows them to turn off all effects, this includes stuff like sacred soil can't tell you how many tanks run out of this for no reason.

Usually if a sch is just standing there dpsing they have already planned ahead and deem it safe to do so, they also probably expected the party to not take any avoidable damage thus it is on the offending party member/s fault for taking that damage then it goes a priority healing system depending on situation.

The days of the octopus nope gif on page 1 of the gif thread are far far behind current sch.

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This, if you see a SCH hard casting a heal in any content above Lv. 52 then something is seriously wrong. Especially in +Lv.78 content because our Sacred Soil is legitimately one of the best heals in the entire game right now - between it's mitigation and strong regen tick. Also yes, it is a legitimate tactic to Art of War spam during mass pulls because by the time we're out of aetherflow options there's usually fewer mobs that we have to worry about which makes healing all the easier. Recitation + Excog + Aetherpact (and maybe an Adlo if I'm worried) is generally my healing strategy in higher level dungeons because unless the tank is eating damage like it's going out of style, that's generally all that's needed. Art of War down the mobs and by the time the tank might be in danger usually most of them are about to die, or enough of them are dead to let me use a Lustrate or Adlo to solve the matter.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

not healing at all really. But more importantly, also not shielding people either....
Never rezzing if dps makes a mistake.

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Preshielding is not necessary unless you cannnot survive a regular, unavoidable aoe without it.
If that's the case you are either grossly under geared for the content or collected stacks like Pokémon and both is on you.

I preshield pulls with my healers because it give me more time to dps. The more I can do on the run the less I have to do during the actual fight. But I'm not preshielding aoes or tankbusters because it's a waste of time.
Simply healing the damage taken with one of my more efficient ogcds is far better than hardcasting adlo to preshield for a tiny amount.

And if swift is on CD I don't hardcast ress unless shit hit the fan and we absolutely need that person alive asap. Otherwise I wait the few sec until it comes off CD and instant ress. Not to mention you don't always have the time to stand still for 7sec while dpsing is still possible because of the short casts.
You died from something avoidable? Wait till swift comes off CD and if someone more important (= healer, tank, someone generally playing mechanics well) is also dead, get in line. They're first.

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Originally Posted by Enla

This, if you see a SCH hard casting a heal in any content above Lv. 52 then something is seriously wrong.

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Alright let's not exaggerate. I'm sure there's plenty of situations you'd need to hardcast heal lvl 50-80 (especially considering you & tank won't always have best gear when leveling), unless your definition of "seriously wrong" is different.

In deadman's defense, while I think 65% is probably an exaggeration, I have seen plenty of healers just sitting around not healing lately. Mostly WHM, but yeah. Two really spring right to mind... one being a dude in e6 who was literally not healing at all for almost the entire pull. No hardcasts - including DPS. No instants that I could see. Literally just running around doing nothing. And yes, we all needed healing. People were getting pounded by mechanics and the other healer couldn't keep up. We wiped. It was bad. The dude eventually started healing, sort of, but it still took what... one or two more wipes? Before we actually cleared, between people standing in everything and the healers just not keeping up. I noped out of there real quick after the loot roll...

I dunno if I've just been getting bad queue groups or what, but this wasn't the first time that happened over the last month or so. Those kinds of healers are out there. Definitely not always a SCH managing their ogcd's well... sometimes they really are just bad. Or so distracted they probably shouldn't be queueing as a healer, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I dunno if I've just been getting bad queue groups or what, but this wasn't the first time that happened over the last month or so. Those kinds of healers are out there. Definitely not always a SCH managing their ogcd's well... sometimes they really are just bad. Or so distracted they probably shouldn't be queueing as a healer, I dunno.

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I mean, if SE make Healers into a braindead role, don't be suprised when braindead people are the only ones left playing them...

You can always tell a troll post when the OP posts a thread and then never returns to reply to arguments posted countering them.

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Originally Posted by Kraniel

Because you and i both know all too well about these players who get mad when healers don't give them the "full babysit package" ;D

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lol. When i level my tank I just hug cute healers. Then I pull as much as I can handle. I am scared of healing in this game so yeah. Thats why they get hugs. So does that mean I'm babysitting them?

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Originally Posted by ADarklore

You can always tell a troll post when the OP posts a thread and then never returns to reply to arguments posted countering them.

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The OP did reply a couple of times. He just ragequit when he realized he wasn't getting an echo chamber.

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Originally Posted by Canada_bangs

lol. When i level my tank I just hug cute healers. Then I pull as much as I can handle. I am scared of healing in this game so yeah. Thats why they get hugs. So does that mean I'm babysitting them?

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Nah you're just being nice. Hugs are cool :D

It's possible but it's also not easy. I think the question has always been: is it far easier to beat the DPS check with composition A than composition B rather than whether it's possible at all.

Hey can I get buffs to Samurai. I personally believe an additional 2.4k potency to all my abilities is reasonable because Our Damage Is Our Utility.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

physical ranged DPS.
Melee.
All DPS.
End game raiders.

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I do love how you know what Square will do or not do in the future. Also, you are being too generic with assumptions.

Range Physical DPS has 3 Jobs which play very differently, and have different group utility. The DPS of Machinist should be raised, the group buffs for Dancer and Bard should be buffed. As these are how the Jobs play, and how they interact with the group.

Melee, not all Melee has positional needs. Also, like Ranged each Job has unique group dynamics, these dynamics should be something Square focuses on.

All DPS, you mean Casters, only you are too afraid to call out Black Mages, the game is not too simple, Red Mage is the least complex caster and the complexity of the class is still more than someone coming fresh from that other MMORPG that is hemorrhaging subs, the lesson Square needs to learn, is making a game too simple will eventually kill the game. It's a lesson they seem to understand, as even Dancer which is stupidly easy to learn has an innate complexity greater than anything found in that Red vs Blue MMO that feels players can't deal with Level 130 so they oversimplified the game to level 50 max. No if you want a simple Job with easy mechanics, play a tank. Warrior is about the simplest thing in FFXIV. Because even Healing has a level of complexity beyond a W*W player.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Healers...

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Oh no, you didn't.

Healing might seem simple, but of all the classes, Healing requires the most thought and expertise. As a healer, you not only need to DPS, and keep the party alive, but a Healer really needs to learn all fights to be successful. If you are dying as a Tank odds are it's not the Healer but how you are playing, are you using your tank cooldowns correctly, are you pulling too much or too little, is your gear up to par with the content you are doing. Also, and this goes for Random Dungeons communicate with your healer to find out what kind of pull they prefer, don't assume ever, when I'm healing a dungeon, I will not heal a Tank who assumes how I play, especially if I tell them to pull more, or pull less. If the tank refuses to work with the healer, the healer is not obliged to heal the tank.

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Originally Posted by FF16Necromancer

It's possible but it's also not easy. I think the question has always been: is it far easier to beat the DPS check with composition A than composition B rather than whether it's possible at all.

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Slaps the Necromancer with a wet tuna. dam you and picking a post which fooled me, grrrrr.

I'm ok with Ranged being the lowest. Don't think the the gap should be as big as it is though, it makes it harder to take 2 in a party when 2 of them (MCH and BRD) are tied and at the highest level of play are still lagging that far behind the others jobs (Dnc doing more than those 2 because at top levels of play people actually boost the RDPS a lot and Dnc has a flashy bursty RDPS window and Sam partner).

My only real problem with Ranged DPS damage is that the reasoning for why they should do low damage makes no damn sense when you look at current Smn. Either they need to rework Smn to actually play like a caster and not a ranged (with a kit that solidifies it's identity and power fantasy) oooor they gut it to do Ranged DPS damage.

I've always found Ranged DPS support to be lacking ... it's mostly just DPS buffs, a damage reduction and like 1 Brd skill. I've seen runs saved by a caster rezing a healer for a clutch healer LB3 ... if you want to make Ranged support then IDK why you wouldn't go all in and give them a 2 charge rez.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

I've always found Ranged DPS support to be lacking ... it's mostly just DPS buffs, a damage reduction and like 1 Brd skill. I've seen runs saved by a caster rezing a healer for a clutch healer LB3 ... if you want to make Ranged support then IDK why you wouldn't go all in and give them a 2 charge rez.

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I still weep the loss of Bard Healing LB. Even when giving each job their own LB3, BRD could have gotten Requiem, MCH something like Life Boost with turrets rezzing people, and Dancer something like Dance of Resurrection. Outside of that, Ranged DPS offers little support outside of DPS buffs (And Peloton, but that's a movement boost that's really only used speedrunning), and one Damage reduction on a relatively long CD. In prog our healers are still lamenting the loss of Refresh.

That's a horrible thing to say, all men can get buff if they worked for it, even physical ranged catboys