Delete Clemency and Vercure

They could keep them, if blizzard II is still in the game then these two could be as well.

We dont have to delete anything.

Clemency is the only reason PLD is tolerable with a "what are buttons" healer in DF.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control.

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You get insulted way too easily.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

don't Blame the skills for a few scardy cats freaking out (although one ability that needs to be removed is rescue I sware I would have lived through so many fights if the damn healer didn't rescue me right into the range because they were freaking out lol

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It wouldn't be so bad if Rescue actually performed its desired function. It would be neat if it were nice and snappy like Aetherial Manipulation. But the delay is what kills people. There have been a lot of times where i thought to use it to save somebody but it wouldn't activate fast enough for it to matter.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Clemency is the only reason PLD is tolerable with a "what are buttons" healer in DF.

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I've been DPSing a lot in my roulettes lately to break up the monotony, but as a healer main i'm always watching the healer, judging them silently, as one does. It's alarming how how many i've had that just... don't seem to be all there. Like a lot of the time the group will come dangerously close to death and the healer will just be standing there... doing nothing... only to snap out of their torpor at the last moment and spam heals on everyone, and then a few extra as if to say "i'm here, i'm paying attention, notice that i am healing you now"

Requesting that certain skills be removed from the game just so they can't be used to annoy you anymore is a pretty selfish request. These skills exist for good reason.
If a player is annoying you, tell them to stop. If they continue to, leave and blacklist them.

Vercure is what allows me to throw out Swiftcast Verraise in an emergency, while also ensuring my HP remains up during any kind of shenanigans, so I'd rather not lose the skill.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Only if we can completely remove any and all dps skills from healers. They should be forced to heal only.

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Better be careful. Someone might think you're being serious. :D

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Rescue is a poorly thought out and implement skill, the easiest change would be to give the target a 2 second invulnerability and that would fix most problems with it. It's useful, but only barely so because of latency.

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I don't feel Rescue is poorly thought out. On paper, the spell is fantastic.

As you pointed out, the issue is latency. I like your idea for Rescue to grant invulnerability.

To expand on that thought, I think having Rescue instantly apply invulnerability to the target before the "pull" and having that invulnerability not drop off until the target has been at their new location for 2.5 secs (a global cooldown) would fix the spell.

NO.
Those moves have been absolute lifesavers. They can mean the difference between a clear and a wipe. If they're making you feel that insecure about healing then you're probably doing something wrong.

I am a healer first, WHM since the beta. But I also play a RDM and my husband is a PLD. For one, Clemency is not just a solo heal. If a PLD casts it on another person, then he/she gets a 50% heal in return. It works great if the healer is busy with raises or if the dungeon has gone south. He and I together have saved a lot of runs because he could use clemency to cure us both while I got others raised and health back to normal.

As far as RDM, I will use vercure in three instances generally, 1) if I happen to fall and need to be raised then the first thing I do after regen my MP is a double vercure on myself because I have found (especially in raids) that a lot of healers will raise and then leave you at minimal health. If you get hit by anything you will just die again. 2) if I have to verraise anyone, I will follow it up with vercure for similar reasons. Sometimes a healer might not have seen that a player was just raised and doesn’t know to cast a cure immediately on them. Regardless, I would rather use that vercure to make sure they have more than the bare minimum so that another raise isn’t needed. 3) I will cast vercure on a tank if I see them at 30% or so. While I totally agree with healers doing DPS, healing should be the primary job and I have seen too many cases where it was not. Too much Broil, Glare and whatever Ast do when many times players need healing and raising (yes, I know “waiting for swift cast to come back around”).

So no, clemency and vercure should stay just where they are even when healers are healing perfectly. They are an excellent backup in case crap happens and a nice assurance to have around. The world is not going to end because of a single wasted spell from either role. :)

M'kay, but we're also removing all healer damage spells(are you suggesting the DPS aren't doing enough?), as well as mitigation and shields(reducing damage is tanks' job, you're being hella rude stepping on their territory like that).

Seriously though - weird bait, but okay.

If people need to use Vercure and Clemency with you so much, you're probably not as much a good healer as you think you are. All the times I wanted to use Vercure but I thought: "na, the healer will heal me, right?" I was dead short after. And luckily the healers who take offense to someone helping them are very few, they're usually thankful and when I heal I couldn't care less, healers are not some sort of emperors who need to stay on their high throne. And I'll tell you more, I also use Second Wind and Bloodbath when playing melee!! And that Manaward? And while we're at it, why don't we lso remove mitigation from tanks, how dare they reduce the incoming damage, they should just trust the healer!
Seriously, this thread is a joke.

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Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control.

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To which I would say, get over it.

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I've had enough scary bad healers that if my health starts dipping under 30% consistently, you can freaking bet I'm gonna start casting vercure no matter how "in control" the healer thinks they are. No offense intended. It's just less of a dps loss than eating dirt on the floor.

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This.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control.

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Unless you're in voice chat with them, they won't know if you have everything under control. As a Red Mage, I've used Vercure to help heal the tank if I've just Verraised the healer. We can't all have everything under control all the time and it's helpful tool to the team.

I use my Vercure for when everything is not under control, and would like to keep the ability, thanks. Often healers do not top up people in time for an incoming aoe, so the options are
1. Not vercure and let someone die (great dps loss) or
2. Vercure and suffer small dps loss.

I know which one I am doing.
A lot of the time I use it on dps who have vul. stacks though, they need more healing and some healers just won’t give it to them.

I wouldn't care if they stayed or go
But Vercure does make PotD possible to solo with RDM and its decent for a dual cast proc when boss is away so it has its uses
Clemency is just more button bloat for Paladin yeah it can save a run on occasion and its nice when your healer just completely ignores divine veil so you proc it yourself but its not needed but if it went would like a sustain tool to replace it

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Vercure isn't essential to red mage's identity and clemency doesn't need to be spell or a heal.

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RDM's have always been about white and black magic and a healing spell (vercure) has always been a part of their skillset.

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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My guess? He's a good troll. The best ones are the ones that blur that line between cluelessness and incredulity.

I main PLD, my best friend mains RDM. We both get frequent use of Clemency and Vercure, both on ourselves and on others. I have personally benefited from my friend's ability to Vercure when an inexperienced/unattentive healer has gotten themselves killed - yes, I realize that as a RDM he could also have raised the dead healer, but Vercure costs less to cast.

I'm just gonna come right out and say it - like it or don't. If you are a healer and you are finding yourself insulted by someone else playing their class (because yes, a PLD using Clemency, and a RDM using Vercure IS playing their class) then you are very likely suffering from a fairly considerable emotional complex. Here's a secret, folks. Might want to keep this one to yourselves, but I feel I can trust y'all with it...

THIS IS JUST A GAME. GET OVER YOURSELF.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Healers have literally nothing to do when there's no healing needs, beside dps.

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There are almost no times, when healing isn't needed. A healer DPSing, is temporarily choosing to ignore the party's health concerns, in favor of contributing to the damage output, while hoping they have enough time to repair the damage taken while they were off focusing on DPS. DPS for a healer is a balancing act, not some side hobby to enjoy while no one is getting hurt.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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Thank you, i was wondering if it was the same person or I remembered wrong.
So either they're butthurt from the replies there or really good at trolling or both.

ive only seen rdm using vercure when nothing is under controll. also if you feel insulted by someone using vercure and clemency i think your the problem.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

RDM's have always been about white and black magic and a healing spell (vercure) has always been a part of their skillset.

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And? That doesn't mean they have to have now, and they have other spells to fill the white magic side. It doesn't even fill the white Mana side either so it's not critical to job to have but it is a major reason why it's so low on the dps for casters.

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Originally Posted by YatoShishi

ive only seen rdm using vercure when nothing is under controll. also if you feel insulted by someone using vercure and clemency i think your the problem.

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Thats pretty much all clemency and RDM are
Insurance

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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With the first thread I thought maybe he was just clueless. Combined with this thread I'm convinced he's an elaborate troll or just a narcissist who thinks everyone should stay in their lane. Except for himself of course--he can do whatever he wants in the name of "efficiency".

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

With the first thread I thought maybe he was just clueless. Combined with this thread I'm convinced he's an elaborate troll or just a narcissist who thinks everyone should stay in their lane. Except for himself of course--he can do whatever he wants in the name of "efficiency".

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Neither are great to be honest...might be time for me to start looking the other way then this person posts.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Something has occurred to me.

OP made this thread about wanting to prepull mobs as a healer. Most responses clapped back saying that wasn't his job, it's the tank's job. He has conceded that the community clearly dislike when healers do this but still does not understand why.

And now he makes a thread complaining when non-healers heal.

Honestly I can't figure out if OP is somehow clueless about some things, or very good at trolling.

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I honestly think he's trolling at this point and he knows exactly what he's doing. Like, how did he expect this thread to go when he's practically asking to remove a skill from both RDM and PLD that basically makes their class what they are? (i.e. RDM has always been about white and black magic, while PLD has always been about being a knight and healing) Not only that, they're great skills when you need them in a pinch.

It's one thing if healers are having a hard time healing for whatever reason and the RDM and the PLD are helping with healing. It's another when they're using their healing abilities repeatedly out of nowhere when it's clear no one needs healing.

Clemency could perhaps use a nerf; I've seen PLDs solo dungeon bosses for half their HP after the rest of the party dropped. And they have by far the best invulnerability too. That kinda makes me question my role as healer. On the other hand a PLD can't really keep others besides themselves up if the boss has frequent partywide damage, nor is Clemency enough for mass trash pulls.

I don't feel insulted if the PLD uses Clemency though. I play healers very aggressively and don't always keep everyone topped up if I know the boss and its abilities well, so it's understandable that a skittish PLD might prefer to heal themselves every once in a while. It just means I can use an extra GCD on damage. An RDM using Vercure is a bit more questionable since their damaging abilities are better than mine so the trade does not pay off. Still not insulted though.

I still need Clemency to compensate the no-heals from healers. Also it's useful to keep everyone alive when the healer dies.

You also need to understand that a RDM doesn't necessarily use Vercure to heal himself due to lack of heal.
If there is a down time and a boss is about to come back to the field, you can Vercure in advance so you have an instant cast ready for when the boss is back.

As RDM, it is not I don't trust the healers, but during raids, a tricky timing can result with a wipe. What is worst : a rez or a wasted heal?

As PU, we never know with whom we are playing. I prefer to be carefull twice, especially in the Factory.

We definitely need to remove more abilities and homogenize classes even more, that's the direction we should be asking SE to move in yeah?

Just no.
I needed clemency for every single lvl 71-79 dungeon because the random healer just died 10-20% before the endboss died.

I used clemency to keep myself and the other 2 DPS alive to avoid a wipe.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Delete Clemency and Vercure.

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This is one of the worst suggestions I've seen and you should feel bad for making it.

If you remove these abilities you can as well remove all the Solo achievements from both Palace of the Dead and Heaven on High as you need those to solo it. Face it, these skills were intended to be used as they are now.

It's weird. Healers are allowed (if not expected) to aid with their DPS, but tanks and DPS are not allowed to aid with healing.

I dunno. Healers DPS when they have downtime. If everybody has their health up fairly high and you have a choice between DPSing and standing there, then the logical answer is to DPS, right? Shouldn't the same apply to healing? What if there's no way in hell you'll lose aggro as a tank, but the healer messed up and died to an AoE? Shouldn't things like this depend entirely on the situation?

And that's to speak nothing of solo content, which, contrary to popular belief, does exist in this game.

I've salvaged boss fights, helped on raids, and my first time in Ala Mhigo I had to nearly solo the second boss when the healer and other DPS died (and the bard soon after). Hallowed, Clemency, Vercure, these abilities help get those clutch moments in for people.


Because you feel insulted you not only want to remove such a thing but deprive people of those "hero moments" over your healer pride. News flash, I've met morr crappy healers than good ones. I sometimes have watched not a single GCD, not even DPS. I've died to more raidwides after my Rez immunity wears off than there's raids in this game.


And you want me to trust my healer? No, I'll trust them when the dungeon is done and all my deaths are my fault (because I admit when I potato, especially in chat, so the healer knows it wasn't their fault) or lack there of of deaths.


And "how do you know they don't have Benediction ready?" How CAN I? WHY should I trust you to have Bene up? What if I saw you already use it earlier, should I pray it's already been the required time?


Don't you dare take my tools away. Those mitigate the people debuff. I like mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Those spells are essential to helping keep the identity of the jobs, which traditionally have the ability to heal people.

I do agree that it's annoying to waste a heal, but that happens with the other healer in full-party content sometimes anyway, and it's not a big enough problem to remove the things that make those jobs Final Fantasy jobs. Go too far in on MMO balance and efficiency and you get the homogeneous jobs across roles and bow mage BS that defined the 3.x era.

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5.x DRK says hi and wants to be noticed for how good TBN is for mitigation and how new player friendly they are this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

This is one of the worst suggestions I've seen and you should feel bad for making it.

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Well obviously that means you have seen more suggestions that are just as terrible, and I would not be surprised if some suggestions I made in the made were just as terrible as "delete Clemency and Vercure"

I am a healer main.

Do not remove Clemency or Vercure.

Removing skills based on other player's pride is what let healers to have such a terrible spammy dps rotation.

You wanted healers to heal more and now we are stuck with spamming Glare and Broil.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Edit: for those who don't know, Clemency and Vercure are PLD's and RDM's GCD (fairly strong) single target healing abilities.

I'm exaggerating with the title and am not convinced those abilities should be deleted yet, but hear me out:

Very insulting as healer if you see RDM or PLD use Clemency/Vercure when you have everything under control. You're maximizing your dps as healer and thus put in some effort to efficiently heal to extend party will survive only to see the dps gain get completely wasted by that Vercure/Clemency.

At first I kind of liked those abilities when leveling both PLD and RDM, but now have come to hate them when leveling healers to the point I'm wondering if those abilities should even exist. Sure they're really nice abilities if you're doing solo content, but they may suggest the wrong idea to some players by making them believe they should freely use them in group content.

The thing is that healers currently usually rely on their oGCD's for healing while they keep GCD's for dps. In many cases they will let HP decrease so they can make optimal use of their oGCD's. Some RDM and PLD may start thinking they or someone else are going to die with their decreasing health while healer has everything under control and is 1 tap away of getting their HP back up.

There are some exceptional cases, like when healer is dead, or massive overpulling in some specific lower level dungoens, but vast majority of cases I see those 2 abilities used is a complete waste.

The dps loss doesn't bother me that much, it's just not nice for a healer when they're already stuck with their monotone dps rotation and on top of that they deny you of enjoying your job with well timed oGCD's.

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Ummm how about no?

Or, only remove Clemency and vercure if they remove every ability for a healer to dps. No worries cause the dps and tank got it all under control.
you heal we dps...got it? <--- that is how crazy you sound.

What a bizarre request op.
Requests like this is why jobs become so screwed up.

lolno.