a question for healers.

I don't expect anything of anyone on any role.. experiences have taught me that when you do all you get is anger. It's much easier to just expect nothing. - Cause really.. that's what you're getting most of the time.-

Mainly because small pulls are dull AF. There's very little for me to do. When a tank asks me "Big or small," my answer is, "Make me sweat.""

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Thank you for at least not throwing a snide response in there. But a serious question.
If you're so unsure of your tanking abilities that you feel the need to perform as such, why not spend some time in lower level dungeons and work your way up? That's what I did when I was uncertain of my tanking abilities to ensure I wasn't a drag on others. Perhaps I just have a hyperactive need to not be any sort of a burden on others, but if I felt I wasn't up to snuff of certain expectations I won't touch content until I felt that I was.

I will admit that maybe such a hyperactive need does perhaps give me higher expectations of others than what you all consider reasonable. I wouldn't try to wrest control of a dungeon from someone as that tends to lean towards lessened group cohesion, but after a certain point shouldn't some increased standards be expected to be met? I don't think it's that unreasonable in the slightest to expect a tank in the third expansion of this game, at level 71, to at least be considered experienced.

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I think a fair answer to this would be because of the lack of abilities at lower levels.

What good is practicing tanking if all you have is a 1-2-3 combo and that's it? What good is practicing if you're lower leveled and everything in the dungeon gets destroyed on sight? What good is practicing in a lower dungeon on, say, DRK? Once you get TBN it's a completely different beast.

And so on.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

I think a fair answer to this would be because of the lack of abilities at lower levels.

What good is practicing tanking if all you have is a 1-2-3 combo and that's it? What good is practicing if you're lower leveled and everything in the dungeon gets destroyed on sight? What good is practicing in a lower dungeon on, say, DRK? Once you get TBN it's a completely different beast.

And so on.

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I wasn't speaking to the tanks weaponskills/class abilities as much as tanking ability in terms of pull mechanics, CD cycling, grouping (etc.) given that's what we were discussing.
Progressively going through dungeons to pick up said skills is far better and more courteous to those around you than jumping into late game content blindly.

You build confidence through doing, and if you aren't confident as a tank in late game content, you should work your way up to it in earlier content till you are. I do the same thing on all my classes regardless of roles after a long time of not playing them or if I speed leveled them in PotD or some such thing.

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Originally Posted by Suzuka196

i apologize if my question confused anyone. i was asking more about brand-new tanks, in brand-new gear, fresh sastasha, etc. not late game inexperienced tanks... sorry about the misunderstanding

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I think you will find a diversity in the game, even in healing, if you look enough. I'm strictly a mage healer, and I hate it when tanks pull wall to wall. DPSing trash in between heals is far more interesting than spamming heal over and over. My opinion of course, but this has always been my style since early MMO gaming, so it's not changing :D In addition, my current internet is not all that great. I live in the sticks now, and this is the best available, so there's nothing I can do about that. Wall to wall trash makes me lag, and while it hasn't caused a huge problem often, it could and it has led to wipes sometimes.

For these reasons, I actually tend to prefer healing for new tanks. Sometimes they are a little TOO cautious, lol. But I'm a patient person, I don't mind.

So, we're out there. It's a big game, with different temperaments. You just have to look for the ones who's pace matches yours and if possible, get them on your friendlist. As for the dungeon finder, well it's a public service. You just have to be prepared that you could get any combination, lol. One time in a PUG in Halatali, our tank didn't have his stance on and couldn't hold aggro. He didn't seem to understand english and didn't reply to us in party chat. I think he was a kid, personally. Anyway, the archer took over tanking, more or less, lol, and I just kept my eye on all three of them, still DPSing but not as much, and had a blast. ^^ Since it's an early dungeon, it wasn't that big of deal, and I had a lot of fun. ^^

Anyway, if people are rude, don't let it get to you. Let them be the unhappy one. Cheers :)

As a leveling WHM, if you know the dungeon and have an idea of what's coming and how much damage there will be dealt, there's no point in not rushing ahead and pulling more mobs as healer when tank keeps pulls small, especially when tank is geared to the point you barely need to heal. I don't mind if you don't want to do big pulls, I'll just go ahead and pull them and bring them to you, all you've got to do is your aoe to get enmity. Sometimes even that isn't necessary since the holy stun keeps mobs from damaging at all if they die fast enough. Me and likely other healers/players are constantly calculating which move will lead to most dps while keeping everybody alive, and rushing/pulling ahead is sometimes the best move in that regard, even if it leads to some chaos.

Imo let healers do their thing and don't worry about it too much I'd say if it makes you uncomfortable, as long as you do bare minimimum (aoe to keep enmity) you'll likely be fine with the rushing healer (obviously you should try to use damage mitigation etc optimally and perhaps try to do bigger pulls when healer clearly gives sign that you're able to, but if you aren't skilled enough yet, don't worry the healer probably know what they are doing).

I like when the tank pulls wall to wall. I love the challenge of doing allot of dps and healing at the same time. I personally don’t like when the tank pulls small groups. Makes the dungeon feel like it’s taking longer. Again, if the tank isn’t comfortable I don’t leave or anything. I go at the tanks pace.

There are some people that absolutely hate dungeons and want to spend as little time as possible in them. Really they should try to earn their tomes or level their characters other ways because they often clash with other players over things like a few extra minutes on a dungeon run. Usually instances where there is an actual confrontation in chat though are rare, and shouldn't be taken as an indication over how a normal run goes.

Once you have done a dungeon 500 time and you know you out-level everything gear-wise by a large margin, you feel like getting more adventurous... to have even the tiniest of challenges

TBH, the only challenge in dungeons is seeing how quickly you can finish them.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

TBH, the only challenge in dungeons is seeing how quickly you can finish them.

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How about recruiting and organizing newbies and teach them how to do mechanics? I suppose that's a lot of work (for a game), but it's certainly a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

How about recruiting and organizing newbies and teach them how to do mechanics? I suppose that's a lot of work (for a game), but it's certainly a challenge.

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Teaching mechanics is often as easy as a sentence before the boss fight, maybe even less. The devs have done a good job of telegraphing mechanics and weaning them in slowly, so very few need actually explaining.

The outliers are most commonly players unwilling to learn, or those who have bought level skips for their first job.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

How about recruiting and organizing newbies and teach them how to do mechanics? I suppose that's a lot of work (for a game), but it's certainly a challenge.

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There is the mentor roulette which would serve that purpose, but from what I hear people only do those for tomes and don't really have an interest in helping new players.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

There is the mentor roulette which would serve that purpose, but from what I hear people only do those for tomes and don't really have an interest in helping new players.

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TBH, I try to help new players on occasion, but more often than not any help is met with them yelling at me no matter how softly I try to phrase things.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Teaching mechanics is often as easy as a sentence before the boss fight, maybe even less. The devs have done a good job of telegraphing mechanics and weaning them in slowly, so very few need actually explaining.

The outliers are most commonly players unwilling to learn, or those who have bought level skips for their first job.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

There is the mentor roulette which would serve that purpose, but from what I hear people only do those for tomes and don't really have an interest in helping new players.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

TBH, I try to help new players on occasion, but more often than not any help is met with them yelling at me no matter how softly I try to phrase things.

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No, people. Listen to what I am saying. Corbeau said there was no challenge, so only thing to do was see how fast they can be done.

In other words, these bored players aren't actually playing the game; they're doing introductory-level unsyced fights, so (surprise, surprise) there's no challenge. Sorry, can't help you there. You're playing in a boring way, and apparently teaching people how to be boring.

However, by setting up a sync'd Ex fight with minimum iLvl, you can recruit people that are interested in learning mechanics. You say people aren't interested in mechanics? Nonsense. When recruiting players (in order to learn mechanics), you are going to encounter (and need to screen) those that can't be bothered learning (i.e., playing the game). But once you've recruited a team, then you'll have regular people that are interested in a challenge.

It probably stems from boredom. Healers don't really have much to do inside of 4 man dungeons other then heal the tank/ dps. Bigger pulls give excitement to the healers, well; for me at least. I'm not condoning attacking your tank for small pulling but its just something to keep in mind. Everyone want to have fun, so if the healer tells you big pulls are ok that usually just means that they would like to have a fun and exciting challenge. Whats the worst that can happen? You die, just respawn back and pull a little less. No normal person is going to make a big fuss about that.

Simply because small pulls are extremely boring.

Since Healer dps kit was gutted dungeons are really only fun when you are healing and dpsing during big pulls.

Alot of my friends stopped being healer mains due to the kits being gutted and where basic casual content is boring now due to no real dps kit.

This is probably off-topic but I just want to vent.

If your newbie healer is struggling, and someone starts offering advice, don't shut them down on behalf of your healer.

Case in point, we wipe on a trash pull, and second time around I notice the WHM spamming Cure 3, Medica 2, and holy with the only person taking any damage being the tank.

I try to offer advice on not using AOE heals for a single target taking massive damage, and the tank responds with a curt "she knows how to heal".

As a WHM main, it's very clear she doesn't.

End venting.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

No, people. Listen to what I am saying. Corbeau said there was no challenge, so only thing to do was see how fast they can be done.

In other words, these bored players aren't actually playing the game; they're doing introductory-level unsyced fights, so (surprise, surprise) there's no challenge. Sorry, can't help you there. You're playing in a boring way, and apparently teaching people how to be boring.

However, by setting up a sync'd Ex fight with minimum iLvl, you can recruit people that are interested in learning mechanics. You say people aren't interested in mechanics? Nonsense. When recruiting players (in order to learn mechanics), you are going to encounter (and need to screen) those that can't be bothered learning (i.e., playing the game). But once you've recruited a team, then you'll have regular people that are interested in a challenge.

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Do you realize that Corbeau said there was no challenge in dungeons and you're bringing Ex fights with minimun ilv? Do you realize that nothing you're saying contradicts Corbeau because dungeons are still something that have no real challenge?

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Do you realize that Corbeau said there was no challenge in dungeons and you're bringing Ex fights with minimun ilv? Do you realize that nothing you're saying contradicts Corbeau because dungeons are still something that have no real challenge?

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I said synced fights with min iLvl. In other words, not being able to brute force your way through the dungeon, whilst making sure everyone has strong enough gear to participate.

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Originally Posted by Suzuka196

... and i am just wondering, why?

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To answer your question : At low level (you mentioned Sastasha for instance), just tank the way you're most comfortable with. Anyone who insults/belittles you for taking it too slow needs to chill. Honestly, any time i get a dungeon under lvl 60 with the roulette, i don't even care how it goes. I don't expect anything, i just do it, get my rewards, and get out. I don't expect people to be comfortable with their class, i don't expect everything to be optimized and at the highest level of fun.
So when you're starting, just take it easy and don't mind the trolls, because unfortunately they will always exist.

Now that this is out of the way, i would like to share my opinion on the "I expect you to do your job if you're experienced" debate that some other players have been having here.

First of all, i have to agree with most of what Shalan has said in this thread.
And to make it clear, just like him/her, i never complain during the run, because i myself have very little experience tanking, and i don't consider it a good think to just say "You suck at your job", without any actual constructive advice.
That being said, i don't see why healers don't have the right to be upset at bad tanks.

As an example, a couple days ago i got one of the earlier dungeons of ShB on the roulette.

However this time, on the first big pull, with all the Holy spam going on, somehow i let the tank die and felt quite bad about it. I thought to myself "Welp, this dude died way faster than usual, but it's my fault as a healer, so i'll focus more on the healing this time". I then proceeded to simply apologize in chat.
Except that after that, i realized that the reason the dude was losing HP so quickly, was because he wasn't even trying to get out of the AoE telegraphs. He was literally taking all the damage possible.
I even had to completely stop DPSing at some point because i could see my MP getting too low when i had to heal him all the time.

So sure, maybe that person got to 70 with a potion, and maybe that was their first dungeon. But why should i care ? Why am i forbidden to think to myself that they suck, when they take big pulls and then proceed to die because they don't dodge AoEs ? It's not like i'm insulting them in chat or anything.

But then again, i'm one of those players who watches guides before they get into content, because i know that if the heal dies, it basically means auto-wipe (unless you have RDM/SMN in your team as well), and i don't like to be a burden to others.
I don't care as much when i'm playing any DPS class, but when i play WHM i do feel responsible when the party wipes.

So with that in mind, i don't pressure other people to be as prepared as i am when they get into content, but if they're over 70, i sure as hell do expect them know their kit and dodge AoEs.