[dev1032] Stamina.Improvement or Step back?

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Stamina is the entire backbone of the FF14 battle system. Without it the whole thing falls to pieces, as it was the mechanic the whole system was built around. If they add auto attack and remove stamina its a 100% guarantee that all our skills and ws's will be on a much higher cooldown timer, and you'll all be whining about it down the road.

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not necessarily.i read your post on the other thread , and the only thin i agree on is on being able to do a burst attack (3-4hits back to back).The rest i dont think is necessarily true.

In FFXIV we wait on stamina/tp/cooldowns, in FFXI we wait on TP/cooldown,for me the choice is simple.
Rotations and cookie cutters builds are in fact, present right now in ffxiv,so im not sure what does it have to do with anythin bout stamina.

Anyways , my point was not auto attack vs stamina, although the thread it did went into that direction.My whole point is as it stands now. stamina does takes away a lot of fun from battle.Its needs to be reworked or removed.Like i said on OP , is a CONSTANT battle against stamina , and not with the enemy . that is something i can live without.

The battle system right now in ffxiv is boring and generic , for many reasons.if stamina is indeed the backbone of it, im pretty sure is the best place to start , to change this.
I know a lot of people enjoy it as it is now, the problem is a huge majority dont.Cant please them all.
Of course this is all my opinion .

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

not necessarily.i read your post on the other thread , and the only thin i agree on is on being able to do a burst attack (3-4hits back to back).The rest i dont think is necessarily true.

In FFXIV we wait on stamina/tp/cooldowns, in FFXI we wait on TP/cooldown,for me the choice is simple.
Rotations and cookie cutters builds are in fact, present right now in ffxiv,so im not sure what does it have to do with anythin bout stamina.

Anyways , my point was not auto attack vs stamina, although the thread it did went into that direction.My whole point is as it stands now. stamina does takes away a lot of fun from battle.Its needs to be reworked or removed.Like i said on OP , is a CONSTANT battle against stamina , and not with the enemy . that is something i can live without.

The battle system right now in ffxiv is boring and generic , for many reasons.if stamina is indeed the backbone of it, im pretty sure is the best place to start , to change this.
I know a lot of people enjoy it as it is now, the problem is a huge majority dont.Cant please them all.
Of course this is all my opinion .

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Good read.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

In FFXIV we wait on stamina/tp/cooldowns, in FFXI we wait on TP/cooldown,for me the choice is simple.
Rotations and cookie cutters builds are in fact, present right now in ffxiv,so im not sure what does it have to do with anythin bout stamina.

Anyways , my point was not auto attack vs stamina, although the thread it did went into that direction.My whole point is as it stands now. stamina does takes away a lot of fun from battle.Its needs to be reworked or removed.Like i said on OP , is a CONSTANT battle against stamina , and not with the enemy . that is something i can live without.

The battle system right now in ffxiv is boring and generic , for many reasons.if stamina is indeed the backbone of it, im pretty sure is the best place to start , to change this.
I know a lot of people enjoy it as it is now, the problem is a huge majority dont.Cant please them all.
Of course this is all my opinion .

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I agree, as it stands, stanima ruins communication in battle, not that i want auto-attack either, due to things like quick-nock being ruined... some balance would be nice, like a toggle system for certain actions.. or a "Semi-gambit" system for people that need to communicate in the (future) endgame lol...

Actually, I've never met anyone in-game who didn't like the stamina system. I never heard people moan about it til the official forums popped up.

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Originally Posted by Kam

Actually stanima does not regulate cure timers, or most abilities outside of a WS. no?
(Cus' they are on independant timers.. i.e. you can cure anytime..)

And WSing... doesnt rly matter because it is regulated by TP generation. lol?

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Yes Stamina effects cures. Cure and Sacrifice use a small amount of stamina, but they still use some. And no, most of the biggest stamina users are NOT weaponskills. Most weaponskills use the same amount of stamina, though the trend is the lower TP a WS uses, the more stamina it uses. A 1000 tp WS almost always uses half the stamina a 500 TP ws will use. Most job abilities use a high amount of stamina as they are instant, most dont use hp or mp, nor tp... Stamina is their only limiter.

Examples:
Provoke
taunt
Wardrum
Warmonger
Bloodrite
Emulate
Most defensive abilities (rampart, defensive shield skills, cover, etc etc)

All of these skills are governed in use by 2 things... Cooldowns, and stamina. You have to choose when and where to use each, because the stamina use could be used to attack, or defend. It's a matter of fulfilling your role in the party. You either have 5-10 minute cooldowns like you do in FF11, or you have stamina to control how often you can actually chain stuff.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

You're no good at being a dick. Leave it to the pros.

Stamina is the entire backbone of the FF14 battle system. Without it the whole thing falls to pieces, as it was the mechanic the whole system was built around. If they add auto attack and remove stamina its a 100% guarantee that all our skills and ws's will be on a much higher cooldown timer, and you'll all be whining about it down the road.

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he/She was simply quoting you on how you stated that implementing auto attack would increase cool down timers on weapon skills and abilities. Which it wouldnt.... cool down timers are already high and weapon skills would NOT have any cool down timers as they would be limited by TP (FF11 combat system)...

I see what you did, you twisted her words around. You naughty boy you

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Actually, I've never met anyone in-game who didn't like the stamina system. I never heard people moan about it til the official forums popped up.



Yes Stamina effects cures. Cure and Sacrifice use a small amount of stamina, but they still use some. And no, most of the biggest stamina users are NOT weaponskills. Most weaponskills use the same amount of stamina, though the trend is the lower TP a WS uses, the more stamina it uses. A 1000 tp WS almost always uses half the stamina a 500 TP ws will use. Most job abilities use a high amount of stamina as they are instant, most dont use hp or mp, nor tp... Stamina is their only limiter.

Examples:
Provoke
taunt
Wardrum
Warmonger
Bloodrite
Emulate
Most defensive abilities (rampart, defensive shield skills, cover, etc etc)

All of these skills are governed in use by 2 things... Cooldowns, and stamina. You have to choose when and where to use each, because the stamina use could be used to attack, or defend. It's a matter of fulfilling your role in the party. You either have 5-10 minute cooldowns like you do in FF11, or you have stamina to control how often you can actually chain stuff.

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And why would all of these abilities need a massive amount of stamina to exicute when they already have reasonable cool down timers?

Stamina is fine. It's the same reason people are asking for auto-attacks, they can't seem to keep themselves from spamming their attacks.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Actually, I've never met anyone in-game who didn't like the stamina system. I never heard people moan about it til the official forums popped up.



Yes Stamina effects cures. Cure and Sacrifice use a small amount of stamina, but they still use some. And no, most of the biggest stamina users are NOT weaponskills. Most weaponskills use the same amount of stamina, though the trend is the lower TP a WS uses, the more stamina it uses. A 1000 tp WS almost always uses half the stamina a 500 TP ws will use. Most job abilities use a high amount of stamina as they are instant, most dont use hp or mp, nor tp... Stamina is their only limiter.

Examples:
Provoke
taunt
Wardrum
Warmonger
Bloodrite
Emulate
Most defensive abilities (rampart, defensive shield skills, cover, etc etc)

All of these skills are governed in use by 2 things... Cooldowns, and stamina. You have to choose when and where to use each, because the stamina use could be used to attack, or defend. It's a matter of fulfilling your role in the party. You either have 5-10 minute cooldowns like you do in FF11, or you have stamina to control how often you can actually chain stuff.

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my life as a gladiator,
Heavy stab,
provoke,
Guard,
wait for stamina.
defensive move,
phalanx,
heavy stab,
wait for stamina,
no stamina moves for hate,
weapon skill,
guard again, wait for stamina,
phalanx.
defensive move or voke.
wait for stamina.
(more or less)
or ,
x.x..x.....x............x..........x........x...x...x.............x...........x..........x [...= moving my cursor(or waiting for stamina to go over half it to have enough to toss a voke on a surprise agro/link) over to the next skill while waiting for stamina]

Dont get me wrong i gotten used to it, but personally i think its not engaging enough.if you get surprised,hell how many times i have been left there watching the mob attack a mage and just stand there looking at it because i did not had stamina.I have to keep stamina above half to be able to react fast enough with surprises.In before you say you are a bad tank, surprises happens, surprises are fun.
Stamina limits what you can do when shit hits the fan.
Also no1 is moaning ,we are having a discussion as to what changes could improve the system .
The current system is terrible , if you have alternatives , ill be happy to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Spuffin

And why would all of these abilities need a massive amount of stamina to exicute when they already have reasonable cool down timers?

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You're a dense one aren't you? Since you can use any classes skills and there is such a huge variety, stamina is the only REAL limiter. TP and MP come so easily.. they dont limit ANYTHING, in all honesty. I've said this many times but let me break it down to a level even you should be able to understand, little one :)

Abilities are good!
They are so good that people want to spam the heck out of them!
Without Stamina, you have access to every single jobs abilities in an instant.
You can taunt, then provoke, then wardrum, then warmonger, then sling off aegis boon, throw in an emulate and a chainspell, launch off a random spell instantly, throw up rampart, still precision, cover, sentinel, punishing barbs, blood bath, disorient, and then chain off a couple of attacks and a weapon skill... and guess what... since theres no stamina to slow it down, you did all of this in 5 seconds.

Now you kids have fun, my shows about to come on.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

my life as a gladiator,
Heavy stab,
provoke,
Guard,
wait for stamina.
defensive move,
phalanx,
heavy stab,
wait for stamina,
no stamina moves for hate,
weapon skill,
guard again, wait for stamina,
phalanx.
defensive move or voke.
wait for stamina.
(more or less)
or ,
x.x..x.....x............x..........x........x...x...x.............x...........x..........x [...= moving my cursor(or waiting for stamina to go over half it to have enough to toss a voke on a surprise agro/link) over to the next skill while waiting for stamina]

Dont get me wrong i gotten used to it, but personally i think its not engaging enough.if you get surprised,hell how many times i have been left there watching the mob attack a mage and just stand there looking at it because i did not had stamina.I have to keep stamina above half to be able to react fast enough with surprises.In before you say you are a bad tank, no surprises happens, surprises are fun.
Also no1 is moaning ,we are having a discussion as to what changes could improve the system .
The current system is terrible , if you have alternatives , ill be happy to hear it.

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Lol I hear you...

Mage getting eatin: "QUICK GLADIATOR we need you to pull hate on that add with provoke!!!"

Gladiator: "I cant!!! My provoke is already cooled down but I have to wait for my stamina give me a couple seconds!"

well zkieve, the hate system is so poor at the moment there is no reason to call anyone on negative game-play... its just a under-developed system that everyone is learning. and as for NoMX, thanks for enlightening meh on the current stanima system, i've been totally underwhelmed by it so far, ive just payed attention to the simple things, and as ive only ranked archer to 45, ive not had to deal with any of those issues unlike mages and tanks it seems.. :/

if anything, it sounds like archer is the most balanced class for the current battle system as far as "timing" and "involvement" is concerned.

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Originally Posted by Kam

well zkieve, the hate system is so poor at the moment there is no reason to call anyone on negative game-play... its just a under-developed system that everyone is learning. and as for NoMX, thanks for enlightening meh on the current stanima system, i've been totally underwhelmed by it so far, ive just payed attention to the simple things, and ranker archer to 45, ive not had to deal with any of those issues unlike mages and tanks :/

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tanks have it really bad , everything but phalanx cost half the stamina bar.While i LOVE guard mechanics.it eats stamina to much.
edit , anyways , way past my bed time . thanks for the good read people.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

You're a dense one aren't you? Since you can use any classes skills and there is such a huge variety, stamina is the only REAL limiter. TP and MP come so easily.. they dont limit ANYTHING, in all honesty. I've said this many times but let me break it down to a level even you should be able to understand, little one :)

Abilities are good!
They are so good that people want to spam the heck out of them!
Without Stamina, you have access to every single jobs abilities in an instant.
You can taunt, then provoke, then wardrum, then warmonger, then sling off aegis boon, throw in an emulate and a chainspell, launch off a random spell instantly, throw up rampart, still precision, cover, sentinel, punishing barbs, blood bath, disorient, and then chain off a couple of attacks and a weapon skill... and guess what... since theres no stamina to slow it down, you did all of this in 5 seconds.

Now you kids have fun, my shows about to come on.

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Which is why they are revamping the battle system and armory system. There is a High chance that stamina will be no more and ability sharing as it is now is going to be EXTREMELY limited in terms of FF11's sub jobs. Especially when they said "We are thinking of adding auto attack" If they said that and only that in terms of auto attack then it's more than likely going to be there.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

tanks have it really bad , everything but phalanx cost half the stamina bar.While i LOVE guard mechanics.it eats stamina to much.
edit , anyways , way past my bed time . thanks for the good read people.

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Once again... Cumbersome and inconvenient. Stamina limits the players skill.

FF11's battle system is the same as WoW or Aion. The ability to use ANY ability at will with the limit of cooldowns. All FF14 did was add a stamina bar ontop of that to limit how many abilities a player can use per min.

Current MMOs have auto attacking + ability spamming working at the same time. This creates fast and player friendly game play.

FF14 decided to be different and add this excuse of a stamina system.

Removing the stamina system and adding auto attack and possibly keeping the armory system allowing us to spam any and all abilities would only resort in them increasing the mobs HP pool...

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Originally Posted by Spuffin

Lol I hear you...

Mage getting eatin: "QUICK GLADIATOR we need you to pull hate on that add with provoke!!!"

Gladiator: "I cant!!! My provoke is already cooled down but I have to wait for my stamina give me a couple seconds!"

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Wow, some fail glad! Shouldn't have lost hate in the first place... And if he did, he shoulda used raging strike, ferocity, and hawk's eye to get agro back without using stamina.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

You're a dense one aren't you? Since you can use any classes skills and there is such a huge variety, stamina is the only REAL limiter. TP and MP come so easily.. they dont limit ANYTHING, in all honesty. I've said this many times but let me break it down to a level even you should be able to understand, little one :)

Abilities are good!
They are so good that people want to spam the heck out of them!
Without Stamina, you have access to every single jobs abilities in an instant.
You can taunt, then provoke, then wardrum, then warmonger, then sling off aegis boon, throw in an emulate and a chainspell, launch off a random spell instantly, throw up rampart, still precision, cover, sentinel, punishing barbs, blood bath, disorient, and then chain off a couple of attacks and a weapon skill... and guess what... since theres no stamina to slow it down, you did all of this in 5 seconds.

Now you kids have fun, my shows about to come on.

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@ NoMX... like i mentioned earlier, in a post you ignored due to your little drama war... that takes time due to affinity with all the right classes... limitations.. eh?

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Originally Posted by Kam

@ NoMX... like i mentioned earlier, in a post you ignored due to your little drama war... that takes time due to affinity with all the right classes... limitations.. eh?

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Time? They're all instant casts... and most of them arent even affected by affinity strength wise, affinity only affects the duration and cooldown of most of those abilities, not the strength of them. They're also all pretty low-rank abilities. Any tank should have them all... Well, chainspell isnt necessary.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Wow, some fail glad! Shouldn't have lost hate in the first place... And if he did, he shoulda used raging strike, ferocity, and hawk's eye to get agro back without using stamina.

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Now your'e just being silly.

A. you cant pull hate on a mob that has been agroed.

B. you would have to use a taunt.

C. that is why I made the dialogge so it was easy to understand the issue at hand

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Originally Posted by Spuffin

Now your'e just being silly.

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If you seriously think that, then I sure hope you're not a Gladiator.

Raging Strike, Ferocity, and Hawk's Eye are three of the best hate holding tools in the whole game. Any good gladiator uses them. They use 0 stamina, pull a truckload of agro, and have relatively low cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Time? They're all instant casts... and most of them arent even affected by affinity strength wise, affinity only affects the duration and cooldown of most of those abilities, not the strength of them. They're also all pretty low-rank abilities. Any tank should have them all... Well, chainspell isnt necessary.

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DUde, youre still avoiding the fact that the post you made on the last page was utter nonsense and was completely misleading. That's what Kam is trying to tell you, buddy

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Time? They're all instant casts... and most of them arent even affected by affinity strength wise, affinity only affects the duration and cooldown of most of those abilities, not the strength of them. They're also all pretty low-rank abilities. Any tank should have them all... Well, chainspell isnt necessary.

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yes and now your getting techincal lol.

The limitations on this poorly implimented battle system are set in place and we all know them. Tell me what r50 in everything and affintiy with all classes achieves? This all ties into the games whole direction, and not just the simple removal or adjustment to the stanima bar lol :/

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Originally Posted by NoMX

If you seriously think that, then I sure hope you're not a Gladiator.

Raging Strike, Ferocity, and Hawk's Eye are three of the best hate holding tools in the whole game. Any good gladiator uses them. They use 0 stamina, pull a truckload of agro, and have relatively low cooldowns.

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Thats great dude... did you read what I had said?

we need you to pull hate on that ADD with provoke!!!

You cant pull hate on an add with buffs unless it has been touched. They pulled that concept from 11.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

If you seriously think that, then I sure hope you're not a Gladiator.

Raging Strike, Ferocity, and Hawk's Eye are three of the best hate holding tools in the whole game. Any good gladiator uses them. They use 0 stamina, pull a truckload of agro, and have relatively low cooldowns.

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Indeed, but you know they are fixing the hate mechanics, do you really think abilities such as this will stay with such a high enm generation , even over voke and such?As far as i know we are speaking about fixing the current system , not looking over flaws such as this for the sake of a stamina bar.

Right now any self buff give a huge increase to spyke enmity, ever seen a thm/con do all the buffs in succesion for1 huge nuke ? thats imposible to gauge agro right there(before the nuke lands,the nuke itself , adds a very small ammount of hate, as my mages buff before i engage for this reason, and nuke right after i engage ). the thin is raging strike give more hate than 1k damage.Now that is serious broken mechanics.So lets assume this extra "hate tools " wont be over powered(couse they are right now) once the hate mechanics is fixed.
ok now for real goodnight.

I'm not a big fan of stamina, especially when some attacks are basically worthless because of their high stamina cost and no redeeming features (I'M LOOKING AT YOU ONION CUT)

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Time? They're all instant casts...

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and you misunderstood. i meant, that it takes TIME to gain the affinties within each class, ie, it takes time to gather the guild marks for the affinity... to get the FULL ability and timer to kick-in... sorry, i thought it was implied.

not that im an expert on this lack-luster battle system lol.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

Indeed, but you know they are fixing the hate mechanics, do you really think abilities such as this will stay with such a high enm generation , even over voke and such?As far as i know we are speaking about fixing the current system , not looking over flaws such as this for the sake of a stamina bar.

Right now any self buff give a huge increase to spyke enmity, ever seen a thm/con do all the buffs in succesion for1 huge nuke ? thats imposible to gauge agro right there(before the nuke lands,the nuke itself , adds a very small ammount of hate, as my mages buff before i engage for this reason, and nuke right after i engage ). the thin is raging strike give more hate than 1k damage.Now that is serious broken mechanics.So lets assume this extra "hate tools " wont be over powered(couse they are right now) once the hate mechanics is fixed.
ok now for real goodnight.

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Hate to break it to you but all these buffs were huge agro spikes before the last enmity update, and they still are today.

And Spuffin, i assumed you meant NM adds. You can gain hate on any red mob regardless of whether or not you touched it by using a self buff skill like raging strike. I forgot that you hadn't killed any NM's yet, but you'll understand it better when the time comes. Besides... THM's are actually faster at killing random agro mobs than a glad is... All they gotta do is throw up barbs, take those 400-500 damage hits, cure them up, and the mob dies before barbs wear off. That's what we did to kill the diremites in copperbell minds when i used to grind the doblyns there... We just let the thm's tank them, since they killed them faster that way. Barbs only lasts 8 seconds on a DOW class w/o affinity.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Hate to break it to you but all these buffs were huge agro spikes before the last enmity update, and they still are today.

And Spuffin, i assumed you meant NM adds. You can gain hate on any red mob regardless of whether or not you touched it by using a self buff skill like raging strike. I forgot that you hadn't killed any NM's yet, but you'll understand it better when the time comes. Besides... THM's are actually faster at killing random agro mobs than a glad is... All they gotta do is throw up barbs, take those 400-500 damage hits, cure them up, and the mob dies before barbs wear off. That's what we did to kill the diremites in copperbell minds when i used to grind the doblyns there... We just let the thm's tank them, since they killed them faster that way. Barbs only lasts 8 seconds on a DOW class w/o affinity.

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hence the need for adjustment while you act proud of your acheivement in a broken system...err... yea...

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Originally Posted by Kam

hence the need for adjustment while you act proud of your acheivement in a broken system...err... yea...

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edit*
tbh you remind me of the issue in FPS atm lol. whats easy, and whats not. goddamn the WOW generation.

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Originally Posted by Spuffin

A. Remove the stamina bar.

B. We already have Cool Down limitations as well as TP/MP limitations.

C. If the stamina is removed, Impliment the Auto-Attack Feature.

D. Doing this will also allow Dual Wield and double/tripple attacking

E. If the Auto-Attack Feature is implemented then there will be a need for Weapon Delay and Haste equipment. This will further define and purpose weapons/classes within the game.

IE. A crafted bow offers 320 Delay but high damage with hard obtainable mats and a low success rate. A weapon dropped off a World Spawn NM that takes strategy and many minutes of combat offers 280 Delay and average damage.

Instead of just making each weapon that is higher Tier than the other has just a little bit more damage and nothing else/special to it.

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I disagree with pretty much everything in this post. If I want to play with WoW's combat system I'll go play WoW, not FF.

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Originally Posted by NoMX

Hate to break it to you but all these buffs were huge agro spikes before the last enmity update, and they still are today.

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I must have missed that update saying hate mechanics are fixed and working correctly.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

If I want to play with WoW's combat system I'll go play WoW, not FF.

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What does wow have to do with removing stamina ? i dont think removing /fixing how stamina currently works = WoW gameplay, or FFXI game play.

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Originally Posted by Zkieve

What does wow have to do with removing stamina ? i dont think removing /fixing how stamina currently works = WoW gameplay, or FFXI game play.

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WoW-equivalent combat is the result of applying all the quoted changes, not just one.

SE just needs to improve the mechanics they applied for the battle system, including the Enmity generation. the system is not flawed.. so to speak, just very poorly implemented.

As with the many threads relating to Stamina and Auto-attack, makes it very clear they can improve on the system they decided on.

The system is a great idea though, does bring one closer to the feeling of being part of the battle, now we need to assist SE in tweaking the system to allow what we as players feel is a good balance. With out dropping the current system in favor for an older system. we can build upon what we currently have in place.

I for one love the idea of countering attacks with timed actions. Instead of hitting one button, watching my character fight while waiting to throw in a WS or BR/SC (insert game mechanic of choice)

The stamina system can work with auto-attack, does not need to be scrapped. does need some work to appeal to the rest of the player base though. question on whether it is needed or not is ones opinion though. I take the attitude (this is what we have, now figure a way to make it work)

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

I disagree with pretty much everything in this post. If I want to play with WoW's combat system I'll go play WoW, not FF.

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It is Final Fantasy's combat system....

Stamina is fine for me, i just like auto-attack.
Maybe if they add auto attack system and increase the stamina cost and TP for abilities both systems will work fine (auto attack with stamina)