PLD Raise Spell in 6.0?

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

How so? Because last I checked RDM isn't brought to all raids and if you raise enough your DPS is so low that you will wipe. I also added drawbacks for using it. This spell is mostly for small parties like for stuff like deep dungeons and leveling dungeons. And of course for progression parties but all raids have enrages and two healers that can already raise.

I honestly love how people say this is a terrible idea without describing situations where it would be OP. If a PLD ends up raising in a full party the chances of success are still like 1% since my version would consume all your MP.

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You're kidding right?

RDM isnt brought because it has less personal damage, and similar utility to SMN. Raises on DPS is fine because even missing a single GCD to raid someone is a HUGE loss in terms of overall group damage, they are, afterall, one of the 4 "damage dealers" - Tanks meanwhile, do less damage and them missing a GCD isnt going to necessarily mean you wipe to enrage even if gear is tight.

So lets have a look at PLD.

Amazing group utility? Check.
High damage? Check.
A TEN SECOND FULL INVULNERABILITY.

So...They already have some of the highest damage, some of the best group utility, and arguably the best invlun skill on paper (ignoring the cooldown timer for a moment)....And you want to give them a RAISE!?
PLD would become always the one to raise because it would be the most optimal - That'd make PLD not only required to be brought in prog, but also make it terrible to play. We need to encourage people to start playing tank, not alienate those already playing it.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

[Combat raise] would make it unique tank, summoner and redmage could so whats the problem with pld?

The highest dps job has a raise, this argument is invalid.

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What if I told you that neither Summoner or Red Mage should have a combat raise?

Food for thought.

Meanwhile in 6.0:
GNB have weaponskill that ranged big single target damage.
WAR have ability that make weaponskill cd reduce 20%
DRK have long charge up but huge nukem magic AOE.

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No? no raise for PLD then.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Probably why I would expect it to never happen. Imagine, by the time this situation arises, you've likely got some LB gauge built up. If you're at LB3, suddenly PLD being able to revive a healer can result in the entire party back on their feet. That's a bit ridiculous for a tank role. Even if it's just healer LB1 or 2, those come with an MP boost, allowing more raises.

On a DPS, the tradeoff is that the DPS is still squishy. In situations where RDM/SMN are the last ones standing, they won't be standing for long. PLD can have enough to keep themselves going by comparison. Completely broken.

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Imagine PLD using protect and saving healer from big stacked aoe damage, making healer alive being able to lb3 everyone.
Protect is even more OP.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

"Because something has to be" what kinda logic is that, RDM doesn't do as much damage out of casters because it can chain raise.
BLM was top dps in Alphascape and in Sigmascape BLM was also top, except for phantom train, which is due to mobility. So over half of SB BLM was top DPS. SMN was taken over BLM for the utility it brought, which helped it edge ahead of BLM.
As people have clearly pointed out it does affect balance, if paladin was the only tank with a raise, there would be no checks against it within the tank role, thus a dps penalty would be imposed. And the balance would be PLD versus the other tanks, not against other roles. PLD sacrificing all of its MP is a pathetic attempt at a trade off.
PLD isn't dreadful in casual content at least as far as I'm concerned but that's strictly a subjective argument.

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Summoner was at the top.
No one was discriminating summoner in SB over the DPS because it was one of the top best ones.
Summoner was not "taxed" for having a raise, end of story. Redmage is lower because developer decided so, they never said that RDM has to be lowest dps because he has a raise.

If PLD was the only tank with a raise that would cost him 100% of MP, then no one would give a damn about it, because using it would put him at rock bottom in the dps chart hurting the party overall dps performance, they would be prohibited from using it in statics.

Why are you ignoring the cost of the raise, i would agree with you if OP asked for 20-25% mp cost but 100% will make it a really heavy tax for PLD already, basically taking away his magic requietcast combo, which is playing a big role in pld dps.
Having a raise with this cost would change absolutely nothing in terms of tanks balance.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

You're kidding right?
RDM isnt brought because it has less personal damage, and similar utility to SMN. Raises on DPS is fine because even missing a single GCD to raid someone is a HUGE loss in terms of overall group damage, they are, afterall, one of the 4 "damage dealers" - Tanks meanwhile, do less damage and them missing a GCD isnt going to necessarily mean you wipe to enrage even if gear is tight.
So lets have a look at PLD.
Amazing group utility? Check.
High damage? Check.
A TEN SECOND FULL INVULNERABILITY.
So...They already have some of the highest damage, some of the best group utility, and arguably the best invlun skill on paper (ignoring the cooldown timer for a moment)....And you want to give them a RAISE!?
PLD would become always the one to raise because it would be the most optimal - That'd make PLD not only required to be brought in prog, but also make it terrible to play. We need to encourage people to start playing tank, not alienate those already playing it.

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Raise would not make PLD apparently better if it was gated behind heavy mp cost.
100% mp cost on PLD is a colosal dps lost, mainly because his MP generators are not as good to sustain it in rotation.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What if I told you that neither Summoner or Red Mage should have a combat raise?

Food for thought.

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And black mage should throw flowers at the enemies because that would make sense from FF lore perspective.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Summoner was at the top.
No one was discriminating summoner in SB over the DPS because it was one of the top best ones.
Summoner was not "taxed" for having a raise, end of story. Redmage is lower because developer decided so, they never said that RDM has to be lowest dps because he has a raise.

If PLD was the only tank with a raise that would cost him 100% of MP, then no one would give a damn about it, because using it would put him at rock bottom in the dps chart hurting the party overall dps performance, they would be prohibited from using it in statics.

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Black Mage was top in DPS of all the DPS jobs, for over half of SB savage fight, information courtesy of FFlogs, feel free to check yourself if you still disagree with that fact.

If you talk with any Red Mage or Summoner, they will acknowledge there is a Raise Tax, just as there is a Mobility Tax on physical ranged DPS, there wouldn't be threads on the topic in the DPS forums about it otherwise asking for the removal of raise from Summoner and Red Mage. The huge disparity prior to 5.1 between casters alone was due to the Raise availability on Summoner and Red Mage.

"Redmage is lower because developer decided so" can you at least have the courtesy of trying to give a decent counter argument please other than this, because it's making me hard to take you serious in this discussion.

So you've pretty much given the main reason why Paladin simply does not need a raise, literally he will never use because of a heavy handed penalty attached to it outside the scope of the jobs current design. So then begs the question, why waste time and hotbar space giving Paladin a raise in the first place? (here's a hint, there isn't any point in giving Paladin one.)

Even the OP acknowledge there would be a hit to Paladin's DPS by having this raise, and as a tank player that likes to focus on DPS, because lets face it this game offers little else for tanks to optimise in current fights, I do not want to be cucked right from the start coming out of the starting gate.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Raise would not make PLD apparently better if it was gated behind heavy mp cost.
100% mp cost on PLD is a colosal dps lost, mainly because his MP generators are not as good to sustain it in rotation.

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You haven't really thought this through, have you? You, much like everyone it seems when it comes to matters of balance, seem to look at things in a vacuum.

Lets see what a raise on PLD would do, and when it could be used.

#1: Due to the very EXISTENCE of a raise on PLD, and one that costs all MP at that, would promote bad play. Players would either hog all their MP 24/7 for the raise that may never happen, loosing them DPS. On the other hand, Players may never be at max MP, and in which case the raise would be a waste of a button on your hotbar where a better ability could of been placed.

#2: When, might i ask, exactly does the PLD currently have full MP? For about...Maybe 2-3 seconds, 5 at the most maybe, before they go in to their Requiescat combo? PLD doesn't spend all that long sitting on MP and so once again a raise would be useless if its only available for 5~ seconds every minute or so, what if someone dies outside of that window?

#3: It would make PLD clunky af - As i mentioned before. If, for example, the stars aligned and you have to raise someone in that 5~ second window i talked about before....Now what? You're sitting with Requiescat off cooldown with no MP. This would honestly destroy the flow of the job so much. Disciples of war have set-in-stone rotations - Interrupting that designed flow for the small percent chance is neither something the developers can account for in terms of design, and neither is it something the players can account for. The right answer here is that PLD raise would be not only OP, but would also cause nobody to want to play it. There is a reason only Disciples of Magic have raises - Because they have less "rotations" and more "priority systems" ie what to cast next based on how much black/white mana, what to cast next based on MP and umbral hearts etc

#4: In the event it didn't cost the full 10,000MP, but instead it costed "All" Like Flare or despair does on BLM....Then it would be borderline OP AND destroy the flow of the job.


You're just looking at it in a vacuum - "Oh well it'd be a huge DPS loss!"....Yes, but they're a tank, dps loss on them is nowhere near as bad as dps loss on an actual DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And black mage should throw flowers at the enemies because that would make sense from FF lore perspective.

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Well yeah, obviously, but what about anything I said or implied?

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

You're just looking at it in a vacuum - "Oh well it'd be a huge DPS loss!"....Yes, but they're a tank, dps loss on them is nowhere near as bad as dps loss on an actual DPS.

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I'd like to add another case here.

#5: The paladin just does sword combos and Req-Confiteors otherwise.

Doing this is about a 1.5-2% damage loss. Unacceptable in farming/speed kills, but from a prog standpoint, that's a range of 180-240 DPS, and effectively pushes a raise scenario from 5 seconds to around 20-25 seconds in any given minute window. Delaying a Req/Confiteor hurts a bit more, but frankly, when your 96-97% state puts you at just about even with the lower tanks, while getting the safety net of a raise?

Yeah.

Good luck convincing a Paladin to cast Raise, thus ruining their Requiescat window.

"What if we wipe?!"

I think they'd prefer that.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

With healers having higher dps than PLD

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Okay, try again, this time, with a fact.

Paladin's median raid damage is 1k higher than the top healer right now in most brackets, and so if you're doing less damage than your healer, either they're really good, or your problem exists between your chair and your screen.

I got a feeling that giving PLD a raise will further cement its OT role and be used as a raise bot whenever swiftcast is down. Especially for situations where 1 healer is down and the other healer still has to topupthe party, then the PLD will be the rezzer everytime guaranteeing a spot in prog and farm content. Prog cus of the raise and farm cus PLD is already good at farm.

Raises are fine, but I'd like to see a hard cap on the number of times that your team can use highly powerful skills like raises and tank invulns per fight. If that were the case, you could bring as many jobs as you like which have "raises", but it's still fair because you only have say 4 uses total spread amongst those players.

No. This is a terrible idea. Do not do it. It would just make PLD a permanent, guaranteed raid-slot like Warrior in HW and SB.

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Originally Posted by Videra

No. This is a terrible idea. Do not do it. It would just make PLD a permanent, guaranteed raid-slot like Warrior in HW and SB.

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What if it was like Confiteor, requiring Requiescat and costing 10k MP?

Considering that Clemency, the strongest non-aoe healing spell in the entire game (1200+600 total potency if used on an ally, 1800+900 during Requiescat) is very rarely used during raids, I fail to see how a basically inferior version of Raise would make it a meta pick.

I mean, Verraise is the fastest raise in the west, and yet RDM is the least played caster in raids. By a small margin, sure, but it's nowhere near the best pick.

It would at best be an extremely niche spell people will debate about for years and claim that it should be removed in favor of an actually useful skill, and at worst a spell virtually nobody uses and just wastes a slot in the PLD skillset.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

What if it was like Confiteor, requiring Requiescat and costing 10k MP?

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Then it would become very niche. You sacrifice an entire Requiescat window (and the Confiteor) for a raise. If it was a full heal, then maybe. But that's shooting the PLD's DPS in the foot. Not even clemency can do that much gimp.

This will not only destroy the tank balance, but the balance of the whole game. Putting a raise on a tank is a bad idea because tanks tend to survive a lot of stuff wich kills DDs and healers. When the whole raid dies except the tanks and the tank can simply raise the healers then we will not wipe anymore except there is a tight enrage timer in place.

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Originally Posted by Tint

This will not only destroy the tank balance, but the balance of the whole game. Putting a raise on a tank is a bad idea because tanks tend to survive a lot of stuff wich kills DDs and healers. When the whole raid dies except the tanks and the tank can simply raise the healers then we will not wipe anymore except there is a tight enrage timer in place.

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When tank is forced to raise healer, then no matter how hard he will try it is wipe anyway.

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sure they might have the lowest DPS of all the tanks but Paladin is already considered one of the best support tanks and has alot of utility compared to the other tanks.

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Stopped reading after this.

If pld got a rez why would rdm need to exist ? what about samurai or drk, lets just give a rez to everyone so that if anyone dies it won't matter anymore. Why move from aoes? if you die you can just get a rez. Raise is not meant to be some easy to come by thing that every job has access to.

Also if 1 tank gets a rez then why bring the other tanks, people love to die so make sure to bring plenty of rezzers, bodybag that content instead of moving for mechanics, care bear fantasy 14 where if you die, the tank will rez you.

PLD already has the generally best support of all the Tanks, and pretty good DPS to go along with it (less defensive cooldowns but HG is still busted). Giving them Raise back just seems like overkill.

I miss actual cross class actions, cross role skills were such a step down. I liked it when PLD had raise, it wasn't all that practical since they couldn't use it in combat, but it was still nice for flavor.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

You haven't really thought this through, have you? You, much like everyone it seems when it comes to matters of balance, seem to look at things in a vacuum.

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The irony of this statement when you look at what you wrote after it...

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Lets see what a raise on PLD would do, and when it could be used.

#1: Due to the very EXISTENCE of a raise on PLD, and one that costs all MP at that, would promote bad play. Players would either hog all their MP 24/7 for the raise that may never happen, loosing them DPS. On the other hand, Players may never be at max MP, and in which case the raise would be a waste of a button on your hotbar where a better ability could of been placed.

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Do RDM, WHM, SCH, AST SMN horde all their MP 24/7 for a raise that may never be needed? No, no they do not. So why would a PLD do that?

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

#2: When, might i ask, exactly does the PLD currently have full MP? For about...Maybe 2-3 seconds, 5 at the most maybe, before they go in to their Requiescat combo? PLD doesn't spend all that long sitting on MP and so once again a raise would be useless if its only available for 5~ seconds every minute or so, what if someone dies outside of that window?

#3: It would make PLD clunky af - As i mentioned before. If, for example, the stars aligned and you have to raise someone in that 5~ second window i talked about before....Now what? You're sitting with Requiescat off cooldown with no MP. This would honestly destroy the flow of the job so much. Disciples of war have set-in-stone rotations - Interrupting that designed flow for the small percent chance is neither something the developers can account for in terms of design, and neither is it something the players can account for. The right answer here is that PLD raise would be not only OP, but would also cause nobody to want to play it. There is a reason only Disciples of Magic have raises - Because they have less "rotations" and more "priority systems" ie what to cast next based on how much black/white mana, what to cast next based on MP and umbral hearts etc

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You just gave two extremely good examples of how the OP's suggested balance would, indeed, be balanced well. You're actually making a good case FOR PLD to have Raise.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

#4: In the event it didn't cost the full 10,000MP, but instead it costed "All" Like Flare or despair does on BLM....Then it would be borderline OP AND destroy the flow of the job.

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It wouldn't "destroy the flow of the job". What's with all this hyperbolic freaking out? I agree it would be OP if it was "ALL" instead of 10k. But you're just being absurdly hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

You're just looking at it in a vacuum - "Oh well it'd be a huge DPS loss!"....Yes, but they're a tank, dps loss on them is nowhere near as bad as dps loss on an actual DPS.

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There's that amusing projection of vacuum again.

If you give pld a raise spell, then you'd have to give some kind of raise spell to the other 3 tanks as well.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

I'm really glad some of you aren't responsible for developing this game. You always shoot down ideas and either don't state a reason or give a really poor one. It almost feels like you thrive on negativity. But OP, I'm in full support of giving PLD raise back (because we already used to have it).

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It was never a combat raise though. People have given reasons, just because you don't agree with those reasons doesn't make them bad.

If they give PLD a combat raise it needs to cost all their mana and be on a long cooldown. Their dps should probably take a hit, too.

PLD raise, despite being non-combat, was still useful in some incredibly niche circumstances. Saved a PotD run with it once.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

If pld got a rez why would rdm need to exist ? what about samurai or drk, lets just give a rez to everyone so that if anyone dies it won't matter anymore. Why move from aoes? if you die you can just get a rez. Raise is not meant to be some easy to come by thing that every job has access to.

Also if 1 tank gets a rez then why bring the other tanks, people love to die so make sure to bring plenty of rezzers, bodybag that content instead of moving for mechanics, care bear fantasy 14 where if you die, the tank will rez you.

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No one is advocating to put raise on all tanks, but one tank which would be lore friendly and differentiate it from rest of the pack.
A raise that would cost a big chunk of his dps would not be a balance problem even in the slightest. Pld already has clemency, but its heavy taxing on dps do you see paladins being played everywhere because they could do the healers job? Not really lol.

Please no...