Highly Notorious Monsters

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Originally Posted by ClearEnd

current mmorpgs are like bowling with the bumpers up

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Yeah, and XI is like bowling in an alley that's open randomly one hour a week and only let's one group of people in. Put if you're lucky enough to be that one group, the bumpers are still up when it comes to the actual bowling.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Yeah, and XI is like bowling in an alley that's open randomly one hour a week and only let's one group of people in. Put if you're lucky enough to be that one group, the bumpers are still up when it comes to the actual bowling.

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Any idiot pick-up group can defeat all content in XIV.... same must be true for XI... right? right?! I keep reading your posts in hopes that they'll make sense some day. lmao.

need timers less then 24 hrs(theres should be some though) and people would do it even the ones saying no thanks to HNM.

if people dont want theres another reason for them to say theres nothing to do @_@. i think they like having nothing to do.

I say yes to having really strong HNMs that take skill and effort to kill, want to make it timed? Ok make the time every hour and make the HNM pop ANYWHERE in that particular zone. That's right make the HNM a REAL hunt. The real competition will be finding the NM, getting your group together and then taking him down before another group can do the same. Make the HNM hard enough that someone wouldn't be able to hold the NM for longer then 1min with out dieing to prevent holding. Pulling the HNM to far beyond his claim point would cause rapid health regen to prevent kiting. Just spit balling but honestly if they are going to make HNMs that roam and spawn every hour they should make them spawn anywhere in that zone so that its a real hunt for the HNM and not just 3 groups standing in one spot spamming a macro.

Well here's a thought to the HNM idea, make something that encourages co-operation between linkshells. Say you have a HNM, a BIG HNM. In order to take it down however you have to apply damage at different points of the mob simultaneously or keep a mob from defending his weak spot.

For instance Group 1 (G1) has to apply enough hate from the front while Group 2 (G2) attacks the weak point to do damage. If G1 cannot keep the attention of the HNM from G2, the HNM can retaliate against those at his weak spot seriously damaging moves on top of heal himself through high-regen. I guess you could call this "Group Focus" where the mobs hate is not only based on the person with the highest hate, but the group with the highest collective hate to cement the mobs attention.

Once the HNM is finally defeated, a chest spawns for each player or group that actively participated in the battle that has a chance of dropping gear, similar to Campaign rewards in XI you only get something if you put enough effort into it.

Anyways that's just an example, and you can easily apply this kind of setting to more than two groups/alliances as long as the HNM was difficult enough to warrant shells trying to help each other out. And it would encourage more friendly linkshell communications with one another.

if the half the people bitching about stuff being too hard or want a ezmode instance only fast leveling solo game played classic everquest, they would of committed suicide

too many people used to iwin mode on consoles new age gamers are babies

the problem with HNM was not repop time 24H, was windows time 3 hours.

Just place a HNM with 20 Hours repop time and 30 min windows only and is not so hard, you have to go and wait for 5-30 mins, not for 3 hours.

Probably lots of people here hates HNM like fafnir/nidh but if you think about it, we have not events to see another LS playing, talking with them, etc. really i miss to see HNMLS community (and drama of course) but it feel more like an MMO. All content instanced is more similar to a single player game with cooperative option than a MMO.

classic games where we had downtime between fights, longer fights, waiting for boats and no instant travel unless it was via aplayer. you had time to socialize with the people around u. now its get into a LS no one talk in public say , its almost like a ghost town inside the game. people are there just everyone wants to rush rush rush solo solo iinstance instance repeat.

i enjoy takign my time reading quests and fighting single mobs not aoe pull cast fire wait for respawn crap. look at eq, you wanted to do a quest u talked to the npc urself and had to say specific phrases to further dialogue or recieve quest etc. sadly there are no longer games like that everything caters to the casual player young kid that wants fast fast fast everything easy i win. that is the fall of mmos

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Originally Posted by ClearEnd

now its get into a LS no one talk in public say , its almost like a ghost town inside the game.

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You can't blame people for grouping up together... Its a natural human social trait.
No matter how good the party search becomes, nothing beats having a set time that you and 7 already determined people will group up to attack new content

In LS's filled with 20-70 people.... there are still groups of 8-10 that do everything together. Ls's have no real community within them (for the most part) its several cliques of people that share a shell so they have a shield by their name. They don't actually do anything together as a whole, or mix people from clique to clique.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

In LS's filled with 20-70 people.... there are still groups of 8-10 that do everything together. Ls's have no real community within them (for the most part) its several cliques of people that share a shell so they have a shield by their name. They don't actually do anything together as a whole, or mix people from clique to clique.

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I definitely agree. I love my LS but I am not a part of any of the main groups, and I rarely get into anything. Albeit my play time is a little off sometimes. I have played since open beta, but still have not had 1 exp party.

Offered 1,500,000g for a PL, still nothing. If you aren't already connected, this game is on the brink of impossibility for new players.

But on hand of the HNM tank.. I love the ideas of shortened windows, and a wide pop radius. This would definitely stir things up, and make it very hard for botters. Plus, having a short wait time for pops, having to run and find where it popped at.. that just sounds like a blast.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

In LS's filled with 20-70 people.... there are still groups of 8-10 that do everything together. Ls's have no real community within them (for the most part) its several cliques of people that share a shell so they have a shield by their name. They don't actually do anything together as a whole, or mix people from clique to clique.

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This is true, but then if people turn up often to do events I feel they should have priority over those who can't be bothered.

Cliques are formed for a reason.

i completely agree and would love to see a dev post regarding this.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This is true, but then if people turn up often to do events I feel they should have priority over those who can't be bothered.

Cliques are formed for a reason.

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Cliques are anti-LS, or at least what LS's should be. That crap started in other games where the "elite" of the LS couldn't be bothered to help lowly members, and god forbid new members.... that is to say, the members who would benefit most from an experienced group to play with and learn from. It leads to things like (an XI example) people with level 10 mnks posseessing the items for black belts. Did they need them? No, but they'll be damned if anyone who could actually use them would get them before the tenured members.

This is all IF the LS will even accept new players. After accepting them, if they do, the new member is treated like a frat pledge, working their ass off to try to prove themselves to the old-bloods who just use them. Use them with intent to drop them from their shell during their "trial period", etc, etc, etc, mini-rant. Ls's should breed community, they don't in (i'd wager) the majority of cases. They simply breed/foster elitism and seperation from others.

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Originally Posted by Technyze

i completely agree and would love to see a dev post regarding this.

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Thank You good sir. I will fight the good fight and hopefully we shall see a Dev comment someday!

anyway, if SE plans to put some HNM to claim, we need these monsters to cant be hit by people outside your party.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Any idiot pick-up group can defeat all content in XIV.... same must be true for XI... right? right?! I keep reading your posts in hopes that they'll make sense some day. lmao.

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What doesn't make sense? The person I quoted used an analogy. I added to the same analogy to illustrate the difference between XI and XIV.

I went with plenty of shout groups to sky, sea and Dynamis and they all did quite well. Can't say anything about HNMs because of the exclusivity of the content.

I think the best way to put HNMs in the game is make huge beasts that can't be claimed. They take close to 100 or even more people to kill. It'll require the server to cooperate to kill it. Until it's killed, certain areas of the world are inaccessible.

Killing difficult monsters in an open world can be fun, but there are certain aspects -- like camping -- that people just don't want to do.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Cliques are anti-LS, or at least what LS's should be. That crap started in other games where the "elite" of the LS couldn't be bothered to help lowly members, and god forbid new members.... that is to say, the members who would benefit most from an experienced group to play with and learn from. It leads to things like (an XI example) people with level 10 mnks posseessing the items for black belts. Did they need them? No, but they'll be damned if anyone who could actually use them would get them before the tenured members.

This is all IF the LS will even accept new players. After accepting them, if they do, the new member is treated like a frat pledge, working their ass off to try to prove themselves to the old-bloods who just use them. Use them with intent to drop them from their shell during their "trial period", etc, etc, etc, mini-rant. Ls's should breed community, they don't in (i'd wager) the majority of cases. They simply breed/foster elitism and seperation from others.

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Oh I agree, but there isn't really a solution to this.

That being said I still believe that people that make the effort should be given the first opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Killing difficult monsters in an open world can be fun, but there are certain aspects -- like camping -- that people just don't want to do.

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It would seem that (according to the posts in this thread) people are interested.

Now the vast majority of us do not want the incredibly long respawn timers, but we do want the HNM scene back. Hopefully with no windows!

I appreciate your posts but please try to not be so closed minded, and be open to the fact that alot of us want this.

While I think that a mob that would take 100 people would be pretty cool. We all want our HNMs that can be taken down with our LS mates (alliance?).

^ He gave a good example of open world bosses though, 100 man content... I kind of like that idea.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

What doesn't make sense? The person I quoted used an analogy. I added to the same analogy to illustrate the difference between XI and XIV.

I went with plenty of shout groups to sky, sea and Dynamis and they all did quite well. Can't say anything about HNMs because of the exclusivity of the content.

I think the best way to put HNMs in the game is make huge beasts that can't be claimed. They take close to 100 or even more people to kill. It'll require the server to cooperate to kill it. Until it's killed, certain areas of the world are inaccessible.

Killing difficult monsters in an open world can be fun, but there are certain aspects -- like camping -- that people just don't want to do.

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Your post said XI was just as easy as XIV but the content was limited. Sorry, XI wasn't as easy as XIV, few games are. That is what i commented on. Shout groups for content (edit: in XI) didn't arise til 1 or more years after it was released and people could just follow a cookie-cutter strategy from a wiki. The exception being nyzul/assault which was nice. It was good to see content you could do with a shout. Everything in XIV can be done with a shout, from the day its released lol

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I apologize but the majority of your posts just aren't too good sir.

You claim that people don't want HNMs, but apparently (judging from this thread) they do.

Rather than try to broadcast your opinion on all of us, how about you try to come to the realization that people are very interested in working together to come up with a valid means of having HNMs in this game that can cater to more than just the hardcore class.

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Okay, two things.


1) I've suggested many ways to make both sides happy in other threads. Some very detailed such as this:

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Okay, here's my suggestion on how to make everyone happy:

Open world

The problem I've most witnessed people complain about in regard to having events focused in the open world, especially endgame, is situations of monopolization.

People don't want to be handed things, the just want a fair shake at them without other players stepping on their toes. Sky was great in theory, but it quickly turned into a voke macro showdown with RMT bots included.

Bounty System

I think a good way to keep any one mob from being a claim fest would be to remove the drops from the mobs themselves.

At this point it would be a two-fold endeavor. The Grand Companies have heard that there are schematics hidden in ruins around Eorzea for ancient and powerful equipment. However, recent events have awoken powerful monsters and they are terrorizing the land. Because of this, the Companies must focus their full attention on the beasts and ignore what could be a wild chocobo chase.

Expedition Forces

At a certain rank, the Grand Company has enough trust in you to divulge the location of known ruins. If you're so inclined, you can investigate. These are seperate zones, but not instances. Their only requirement for entrance is being of a certain rank. After all, even access to Sky was contingent on story progression.

These open world areas are full of dangerous foes and pitfalls. It's up to the player to explore and discover where the schematics are located. Ultimately, they're a drop from a boss like abjurations in Sky. The schematics are U/U.

Bounty Points

So you've found some schematics. Or you just want to help fight the good fight.

Either way, the Companies' master craftsmen can't be bothered with the schematics when they're so busy churning out equipment and supplies for soldiers to take on these new beasts roaming the land.

The Grand Companies are willing to make a deal, they'll get you the attention of their master craftsmen if you aid in the battle against the roaming NMs.

Each time a player participates in a kill on an NM, they get a certain amount of "Bounty Points." These can be accumulated for the big prize or, for those not interested in the schematics, for Company Seals.

Instances

Some people just want to schedule an LS event and play on their own schedule, this should be tailored to them.

The Base Item

The story is short and sweet: Grand Companies aren't the only citizens of Eorzea aware of the schematics. It is rumored that the Beast Tribes of Eorzea have been creating weaponry based on their own versions of the same schematics.

In each of the strongholds is an entrance to an instanced raid. The Amalj'aa Armory, the Kobold Foundry and the Ixali Floating Keep.

These raids eventually lead to a battle against a boss who drops a weaker version of the open world items.

The Upgrade

Garlean Magitek can do many wonderous things, including enhance weaponry of a specific design.

Players can partake in difficult instanced raids on Garlean outposts in search of a functioning one-time-use piece of Magitek that will upgrade their specific equipment to the Open World version.

Conclusion

There's a balance in all of this. In the open world, you're not guaranteed a chance at the fight, but when you get claim and win you at least make some form of personal progress. In the instances your guaranteed a chance at the battle on your own schedule, but drop rates are low and require getting two specific drops per item.

Ideally, both would be designed to take about the same amount of time. But both are influenced by luck. In the open world, a player may never get in on a kill or could just be around for all of them. The instances could go over like Dynamis -- I know people who head RDM hats hitting the ground whereas my LS saw three drop in as many years.

This all leaves it up to the player to chose. There's plenty in the open world to explore and even terrible beasties to bump into.

Everyone can choose their own path to the same items while still having to put in a significant amount of time.

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But people ignored it mostly replying only "HNMs should give better rewards." So much for balance and compromise, eh?

2) 79.3% of players do not want claim wars. Question 10.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

This data is somewhat representative of the response seen to Question 9 data. The people have spoken. As such, we'll be operating under the premise that new PvE content, such as dungeons containing sought-after loot, will be instanced. By instancing content in this way, we'll be able to reduce claim wars and counter-camping and all that. There's also the added merit of enabling the level design team to work with a clear theme in mind, and create much more engaging and challenging content.

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Sorry, but as Yoshida said, the people have spoken.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

^ He gave a good example of open world bosses though, 100 man content... I kind of like that idea.

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BRING BACK THE KILLER TREE EVENT!!!!

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Your post said XI was just as easy as XIV but the content was limited. Sorry, XI wasn't as easy as XIV, few games are. That is what i commented on. Shout groups for content (edit: in XI) didn't arise til 1 or more years after it was released and people could just follow a cookie-cutter strategy from a wiki. The exception being nyzul/assault which was nice. It was good to see content you could do with a shout. Everything in XIV can be done with a shout, from the day its released lol

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All the pugs I join are terrible, its part the reason why I only do stuff with my LS's these days.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Cliques are anti-LS, or at least what LS's should be. That crap started in other games where the "elite" of the LS couldn't be bothered to help lowly members, and god forbid new members.... that is to say, the members who would benefit most from an experienced group to play with and learn from. It leads to things like (an XI example) people with level 10 mnks posseessing the items for black belts. Did they need them? No, but they'll be damned if anyone who could actually use them would get them before the tenured members.

This is all IF the LS will even accept new players. After accepting them, if they do, the new member is treated like a frat pledge, working their ass off to try to prove themselves to the old-bloods who just use them. Use them with intent to drop them from their shell during their "trial period", etc, etc, etc, mini-rant. Ls's should breed community, they don't in (i'd wager) the majority of cases. They simply breed/foster elitism and seperation from others.

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While this is getting off topic, generally I have been lucky enough to have been in and or am still in, LS's that are fairly helpful. I do see the cliques and that is something we'll see everywhere. Although, while you can't eliminate the problem, a really good LS can help lessen the impact. Again, I am fortunate enough to be in a few LS's where everyone is pretty friendly and helpful even if they aren't apart of a specific in-LS clique... Jinko is one of those helpful people. Yay Jinko!

Something like Shadow of the Colossus in multiplayer, fighting Ruby and Emerald Weapons could be awesome :p (just dreaming)

Please add Behemoth King and his Dominion. That is all.

@Sephrick.

Your detailed Open-World layout you showed, I like it. So do many others.

But when you quote Yoshida with the comment of "the people have spoken"... Look at the game... It has failed miserably, and despite the recent hightened amount of players, is still failing. It needs more content catering to both crowd.

I personally love your idea of 100 man bosses. But at the same time I/many others would like KB/Faf/Tiamat type material. We have all mentioned the spawn time/area being revamped, etc etc.

Think of it less of everything being so "final" and/or "my opinion versus yours", and more of an open discusion inviting more opinions on how HNMs should be implemented

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Originally Posted by Abhayaa

I'm glad someone brought this up. This is one of the reasons I've had trouble getting into this game. Current open world NMs are just too easy. There's no surprise, adrenaline rush, contest-- no feeling of reward when you down them because you know they're going to pop back up in a few minutes. I'm okay with these kind of NMs staying in the game, but I think at least 25% of NMs should use something like ffxi's system. I enjoyed hunting things like charybdis and the sahagin NMs, or Stray Mary and Leaping Lizzy. There's a lot I can't remember about ffxi after a few years but I really enjoyed the NM system.

I'm not talking about the big game 24 hour spawns necessarily, although those were fun, too. Maybe those could be made to be a completely random spawn. I also liked having the occasional dragon around (like the big guy down in KRT or the one in the icelands. I can't remember place names anymore). Having these NMs added a certain quality to the world of ffxi-- more possibilities. Finding an NM actually gave you a jolt, because you didn't expect them to be sitting there 24/7. Finding a big ass dragon gave you one more reason to level up.

Hard to explain, but FFXI had a really rich NM world even outside of the spawns that were commonly botted.

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oh man Charybdis! I camped him for about 11 hours when I went for my joyeuse and it was amazing. One of my good memories of XI. Standing around soloing the placeholders on BLM all day, chatting with my LS and then having them all run down when it finally popped, racing against another shell. Good times.

On topic, do I want these systems back? I'm not sure. Perhaps a small handful of NMs on longish timers will do me.

Some of the ideas here are cool. I do want to caution against the tiamat/kb etc model for a few reasons.

First, all in all these events in XI really weren't that popular. Dynamis, sky, sea etc were much more popular. I say this having done years of HNM- the overall server was not present. Most people that played XI never saw kings till Nyzul.

I think spawn timers have been beat to death, but when I think about them I still cant believe i was that crazy to do that back in the day.

That detailed break down with the mix of openworld claim etc is actually a really good plan it could work with the right amount of things to not cause a bottle neck or crazy claim fest (looking at you early abyssea).

Beware the speed hackers!

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

@Sephrick.

Your detailed Open-World layout you showed, I like it. So do many others.

But when you quote Yoshida with the comment of "the people have spoken"... Look at the game... It has failed miserably, and despite the recent hightened amount of players, is still failing. It needs more content catering to both crowd.

I personally love your idea of 100 man bosses. But at the same time I/many others would like KB/Faf/Tiamat type material. We have all mentioned the spawn time/area being revamped, etc etc.

Think of it less of everything being so "final" and/or "my opinion versus yours", and more of an open discusion inviting more opinions on how HNMs should be implemented

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I am not sure what is the correlation between the game's failure and not having open world content. The original FFXIV failed on many different levels and the lack of contested NMs/HNMs is far from the top of the list.

I think the result of Question 10 spoke loud and clear that the majority of the players who participated in the survey would prefer "instanced" content. In FFXI, fighting over the claim and preventing another group of players from screwing with your encounter were far more challenging than the actual content itself. This is the problem with contested open world content. How successful you are in PvE content shouldn't be based on how well you can react to a Paladin of the opposing linkshell cure bombing and popping invincible on you to turn the boss hoping that will result in a wipe of your LS. This to me is fundamentally backwards, since Fafnir/KB/Tiamat were suppose to be PvE, but I worry about what other players are going to do to me more than the actual boss, doesn't that sound more like PvP to you?

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

I am not sure what is the correlation between the game's failure and not having open world content. The original FFXIV failed on many different levels and the lack of contested NMs/HNMs is far from the top of the list.

I think the result of Question 10 spoke loud and clear that the majority of the players who participated in the survey would prefer "instanced" content. In FFXI, fighting over the claim and preventing another group of players from screwing with your encounter were far more challenging than the actual content itself. This is the problem with contested open world content. How successful you are in PvE content shouldn't be based on how well you can react to a Paladin of the opposing linkshell cure bombing and popping invincible on you to turn the boss hoping that will result in a wipe of your LS. This to me is fundamentally backwards, since Fafnir/KB/Tiamat were suppose to be PvE, but I worry about what other players are going to do to me more than the actual boss, doesn't that sound more like PvP to you?

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The discussion pretty much boils down to nostalgic folks reminiscing on the "rush" they felt while camping HNMs. The poll data suggests that the vast majority of players either never felt that rush or have no desire to experience it again.

Is either side wrong? No. So it really comes down to an issue of quid pro quo.

In implementing HNMs, players who just want to play have to give up their chance to play so that a minority can have their rush.

In implementing mostly instances, players who want HNMs have to give up that "claim rush" so that everyone can play when they log on.

There's no reason they shouldn't do both, though. As long as rewards are even. MMOs are reward-drive experiences. We collect gear to make it easier on ourselves the next time we go out to collect gear. So it's only natural that the event with th best reward will be what we spend all of out time on.

But the problem for a lot of the folks in the anti-instance crowd is that they want a pedestal to stand on too. He rush of getting claim isn't enough if there isn't some elite item to rub in others' faces.

Isn't it "High Notorious Monster"? Kinda like a Priest or a High Priest kinda deal?

I've heard "Hyper" in regards to some of the rage ones, but never heard of "Highly".

threads like these are always funny.

people who want a greater challenge never say the entire game needs to be really hard. they never say the entire game needs to cater to them and only them. they're only asking for *something* that their demographic can actually find challenging, rewarding and enjoyable. they never try to pry away the more casual content.

so why do the people who want casual content and/or don't want more challenging content insist on ruining things for those who do?

if you don't want it, don't participate in it. simple. but don't try to block it from being implemented into the game just because you personally don't want it.

it just makes you come across like petulant, spoiled little flailing children.

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Originally Posted by fusional

threads like these are always funny.

people who want a greater challenge never say the entire game needs to be really hard. they never say the entire game needs to cater to them and only them. they're only asking for *something* that their demographic can actually find challenging, rewarding and enjoyable. they never try to pry away the more casual content.

so why do the people who want casual content and/or don't want more challenging content insist on ruining things for those who do?

if you don't want it, don't participate in it. simple. but don't try to block it from being implemented into the game just because you personally don't want it.

it just makes you come across like petulant, spoiled little flailing children.

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I believe there was a thread created a while ago about someone wanting an "Easy, Hard Mode" for the level 50 Ifrit because the actual level 50 Ifrit was too stressful and they couldn't be bothered to do it, but didn't consider the level 25 as an acceptable alternative. They wanted the exact same experience as the level 50 Ifrit, but they wanted a special version so it was easier.

You'll never stop running into those kind of people, and arguing with them is just a waste of time.

Im 1000% for this. IF you dont like it. DONT FREAKING CAMP THEM. TOO BAD. We want rare monsters. Lots of them. Im for quick spawns. long spawns. lottery spawns. Place holder spawns. timed spawns. 24 hours spawns. rare spawns. Add it all.
VARIETY PLEASE. These are the things that made me LOVE final fantasy 11 in the early years. And its what i HOPE for and look forward to 2.0 the most. (+New maps)

It was very fun to earn a chance to fight something not everyone can at any time. Made it mean something.

You can still add BCNM style stuff. Trigger pop stuff for those people who dont like competition or cry about potential bot use.
World NM are exciting and fun.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I'm not a fan of open world NM's because it encourages unfair play, abuse, MPK and botting.

BCNM or pop item bosses I'm good with though.

As I've said in other thread if they have huge open world NM's they should make it public content, similar to what GW2 is doing.

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As true as this is, NMs/HNMs were nonetheless one of my favorite FFXI activities.

I say have some poped HNM's that you farm pop items off, say level 60-70 mobs.

Also some Roaming HNM.
Have them pop every five minutes like any regular NM, but put a recast timer of like 15min on any member that participated in the kill (like the raids), that way you don't have people hogging the NM.

Though I don't see how any Roaming NM will be that challenging if you can have 40+ people attacking it.
IDK I'm sure they'll figure out a good way to please everyone.

[2] on Copy FFXI.
But no crazy 24h+ timers. That was ridiculous.
Maybe 2h? Or forced popped HNMs?