Dancer Flourish is badly designed and not actually enjoyable to use

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

Don't you mean SB MCH? As apparently DNC inherited their previous RNG problem.

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No. I meant SB BRD. SB BRD’s song mechanics were based entirely on RNG crits ticks from your DoTs—old Repertoire was not the flat 40% that it is now, but scaled with your crit (and could subsequently be manipulated favorably if one double-snapshot crit-enhancing buffs onto their DoTs, such as Battle Litany, Chain Stratagem, and Spear). BRD burst and damage could either be god-tier or crap depending on if RNGesus blessed you during Minuet+Raging Strikes.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

As for Esprit, whenever I got 90, I have to dump a Saber Dance, but that's ok because it's better than overcapping and that 30k+ dmg out of no where isn't a complaint of mine and I always seem to hit 50 again right in time for Technical Step. /whenallgoesaccordingtoplan

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The ideal dumping point for Esprit is 80—simply to avoid overcapping from a double tick of Esprit generation from your weaponskill and your partner’s weaponskill during a GCD window. But I also manipulate mine depending on when my odd-numbered Flourishes are coming up so that I don’t risk proccing Reverse Cascade or Fountainfall, and delaying Flourish’s use.

The only badly designed thing about Flourish is that it should be available earlier. It's not complex and no one is under the impression that it is; all it does is force procs. It's so much simpler than Reload because it doesn't require additional skill usage to proc, so unless you also thought reload was...too complex, or added the illusion of complexity, or whatever your bumbling argument against Flourish is, you're letting your subjectivity delude you into thinking it's objectivity.

Also, I take particular beef with this statement:

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

I could make Ninja more un-dull by introducing more chaos to its mudras. Give it a mudra-version of flourish too why not which oh wait, it already does! Two in fact, TCJ and Kassatsu. See how uninspired this kind of design is. It's a neutered down version for individual procs instead of procced combos. Much easier for newcomers to input.

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You have absolutely no idea how Kassatsu and TCJ work other than their barebones mechanics. They aren't and never were mudra refresh or proc forcers; they're damage steroids. Kassatsu becomes even more apparent that it's a steroid when you hit 76 and drop Raiton in favor of Hyosho Ranryu to have your hardest hitting ability. And TCJ was always strictly a damage steroid that sacrificed all movement so you could become a black mage for a few seconds. Your statement here is absolute nonsense.

Thats an odd way of spelling Curing Waltz. But seriously, Flourish is fine.

Now Curing Waltz, thats a pain to use outside of stacking mechanics...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

DNC’s burst is not inconsistent—it’s every 120s when Technical Finish and Devilment are up.

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Cut to reply.

DNC isnt inconsistent and your argument here is 3 long rotation cooldowns? Do you perhaps ever look at logs and do the math to work out where we\\'re averaging? If it wasnt for BRD we:d be dead last and the least consistent performer. 3 long cooldowns dont change that, its minor consistency and a see of inconsistency.

DNC can perform really well, if RNG is on your side and you feast

thats not the reality, you will have feast but you will also have famine, you will use sub optimial skills in the chase for Feathers, you will get Devilment up with 2 or less Feathers getting no Fan Dance 3 proc other than the one from Flourish and no further feathers. You\\'ll be down the bottom of the charts because unlike the RDM our bad luck streak protection isn\\'t as useful.

The RDM went from being on the verge of being discluded from Savage content to competing fiercely for the top spot along side SMR and BLM, all it took was making Acceleration stacks instead of one every 45 seconds.

Yes the class is RNG, however every class in FF that relies on random elements even the Gambler had/has some form of bad luck protection (forcing the reels to to avoid Joker Doom for example) in an MMO where a certain level of consistency is expected..

Bottom of the charts dps and famine streaks are unacceptable, we need Flourish to bad luck protect better than it does to offer us that consistency we currently lack.

Id also like to point out that you\\'re expecting perfect synergy all the time. In a game built around pick up groups (statics exist, but the main audience of the game is the JP market, who mostly party finder pick up group) you\\'re not going to get perfect raid synergy in 90% of your groups, so you\\'re going to look to synergize with the one person you can which is the person you\\'re pairing with.

Also just a side note on your last note, the Dancer was never RNG in any of its other incarnations in FF they were either a mobile ranged assassin with buffs/debuffs or a back line support that took time to build into a status affliction monster.

The Gambler was rolled into the DNC for this incarnation the problem.. Even the Gambler had loaded dice and the ability to force slots to stop on what they wanted, we get a buncha 50% chance for Feathers and a Fan Dance III as our protection.

Don\\'t get me wrong, nothing wrong with an RNG class, whats wrong is that RNG having poor protection so they have no expected consistency of performance in raid environments.

Feast or Famine never works in an mmo, the only reason we don\\'t get benched is because of people liking having us along to pad their own stats through Step buffs.

Trial 3 stacks and see where it goes from there, because right now we need something other than stat padding to ensure we\\'re not feeling like a charity case.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Cut to reply.

DNC isnt inconsistent and your argument here is 3 long rotation cooldowns? Do you perhaps ever look at logs and do the math to work out where we\\'re averaging? If it wasnt for BRD we:d be dead last and the least consistent performer. 3 long cooldowns dont change that, its minor consistency and a see of inconsistency.

DNC can perform really well, if RNG is on your side and you feast

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Uh, they said DNC burst is consistent. It's right there in the sentence you quoted. And it is. Every 120s and all of the necessary procs are preloaded during the build up for it so it always has its full damage potential. The chance to have no feathers or esprit built up by the next technical step is so small as to be non-existant. I.e. even if your proc RNG during technical step is bad, you still have all the procs you need. The only issue that comes up is that sometimes you have too many procs due to the RNG while in technical step being good and end up with leftovers. The regular rotation between bursts is variable and is reliant on good procs.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Uh, they said DNC burst is consistent. It's right there in the sentence you quoted. And it is. Every 120s and all of the necessary procs are preloaded during the build up for it so it always has its full damage potential. The chance to have no feathers or esprit built up by the next technical step is so small as to be non-existant. I.e. even if your proc RNG during technical step is bad, you still have all the procs you need. The only issue that comes up is that sometimes you have too many procs due to the RNG while in technical step being good and end up with leftovers. The regular rotation between bursts is variable and is reliant on good procs.

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It's actually very possible to get 0-2 Feathers or have 1 Feather turn into 6 and several FD III procs. That's the 50-50 we have to deal with and why I said it's feast or famine.

It's the old flip a coin ten times and get heads 7 times, you are automatically drawn into confirmation bias, as for everyone that gets 7 heads, there's someone that gets 7 tails.

I've had runs where I've gone full on feast, constantly proccing like it's going out of fashion and ones where the procs were so rare I'd be worried that the healers would be nipping at my heels (over exaggeration ofc, more stating I knew I was going to be bottom dps and there very little I could do to change that)

The true point is improbable vs impossible.

Is it improbable that you'll get bad RNG streaks? Yes

Is it impossible? No.

So in a mmo where consistent performance matters, while the odds say you won't have bad streaks, you can indeed have bad streaks and thus feel very unrewarded/bad about your contribution because the bad luck protection we have only makes for improbable, it doesn't remove impossible.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Cut to reply.

DNC isnt inconsistent and your argument here is 3 long rotation cooldowns? Do you perhaps ever look at logs and do the math to work out where we're averaging? If it wasnt for BRD we:d be dead last and the least consistent performer. 3 long cooldowns dont change that, its minor consistency and a see of inconsistency.

DNC can perform really well, if RNG is on your side and you feast

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DNC isn’t inconsistent. That’s exactly what I said, so no idea why you’re arguing otherwise. You quoted where I said DNC isn’t inconsistent.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying? Because your premise was that their burst was inconsistent, and then you brought up how they have to rearrange their burst windows with their Dance Partner. I was interpreting your comment as that their window shifted around inconsistently, which is false. Technical Finish/Devilment is always used on cooldown unless you have to delay it for a mechanic or grouping (E4S is a good example of tactical TF/Devilment delay). Hence my reply. Is that cleared up now?

You can argue that their damage during their burst is inconsistent, but that’s only really because of Esprit/Saber Dance and FD3. Flourish exists to stabilize some of the burst window damage as you always use it with TF. Opener burst may not have a stable amount of fourfold feathers, but I’ve never had any issues about starting a mid-fight burst window with 3 feathers. Stockpiling them for burst windows averages out your TF burst—but you stated that you’re already using them as they proc. That’s a rotational issue on your part.

I raid Savage on this job, and I parse fairly well, if I may be able to say so. So I think I do have a fair grasp on how my job plays and where it stands. I may not be a theorycrafter, but I never claimed to be. How about yourself? Because I can’t find evidence of you playing this job at a higher level, and you’ve already stated that you do two things incorrectly with regards to DNC’s rotation. Are you sure that you have an adequate understanding of the job?

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thats not the reality, you will have feast but you will also have famine, you will use sub optimial skills in the chase for Feathers, you will get Devilment up with 2 or less Feathers getting no Fan Dance 3 proc other than the one from Flourish and no further feathers. You\\'ll be down the bottom of the charts because unlike the RDM our bad luck streak protection isn\\'t as useful.

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“Use suboptimal skills to chase feathers”? What do you mean by that? Because your Flourished procs are equal to (Reverse Cascade/Rising Windmill) or stronger than (Fountainfall/Bloodshower) than your Cascade > Fountain combo; and those are the skills that proc feathers, not the combo. So...what are you even talking about here?

Speaking personally, I’ve never gone into a TF window with anything less than 3 feathers, and that was with having a NIN in my static where feathers are blown during TA windows in between TF windows. FD3 may be RNG, but it’s not nearly as terrible as you’re making it sound. Spending your feathers the minute you get them doesn’t really help your RNG complaints, because it seems a lot more egregious when you have empty gauges from not stocking your feathers. Which, again: you stated that you blow them immediately in a previous post.

DNC is lower in damage than RDM—but DNC dosen’t compete with RDM for a static spot. I can understand why DNC is so low, since if it ended up being stronger, it would be instantly meta and kill the other two physical ranged—and I think the developers don’t want to have a repeat of SB where BRD solely dominated the physical ranged and MCH was basically dead.

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The RDM went from being on the verge of being discluded from Savage content to competing fiercely for the top spot along side SMR and BLM, all it took was making Acceleration stacks instead of one every 45 seconds.

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Where are you seeing this?

For the last 2 weeks, the uploads have been as such:

E1S—
SMN: 6,167
BLM: 4,496
RDM: 3,982

E2S—
SMN: 6,609
BLM: 4,641
RDM: 3,812

ES3—
SMN: 5,571
BLM: 3,982
RDM: 3,304

E4S—
SMN: 5,170
BLM: 3,588
RDM: 2,936

This doesn’t look like RDM is competitive with SMN at all. There may be a slight argument for BLM versus RDM, but BLM is still ahead by several hundred uploads on each fight. Wherever you got your information that RDM was being competitive with SMN/BLM...well, it’s incorrect.

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Id also like to point out that you\\'re expecting perfect synergy all the time. In a game built around pick up groups (statics exist, but the main audience of the game is the JP market, who mostly party finder pick up group) you\\'re not going to get perfect raid synergy in 90% of your groups, so you\\'re going to look to synergize with the one person you can which is the person you\\'re pairing with.

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No synergy is perfect, and I never claimed that synergy would be perfect nor did I say that was my expectation—you’d likely only find that in super optimized speedkill statics. You are completely missing my point.

You do not synergize your buff windows based on your partner’s burst. That’s not how buffs work. Unless mechanics call for you to delay TF/Devilment, then you always use it on cooldown. If you are delaying TF to align with your partner’s burst, you’re using it incorrectly and hurting your raid—even without “perfect synergy”. +5% for 7 people is better than the +5% for one job that’s bursting.

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Also just a side note on your last note, the Dancer was never RNG in any of its other incarnations in FF they were either a mobile ranged assassin with buffs/debuffs or a back line support that took time to build into a status affliction monster.

The Gambler was rolled into the DNC for this incarnation the problem.. Even the Gambler had loaded dice and the ability to force slots to stop on what they wanted, we get a buncha 50% chance for Feathers and a Fan Dance III as our protection.

Don\\'t get me wrong, nothing wrong with an RNG class, whats wrong is that RNG having poor protection so they have no expected consistency of performance in raid environments.

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This isn’t FFXI, though. Or any other FF iteration—this is FFXIV, and it just kind of does its own thing when it comes to job design. DNC in this game is RNG, and if you don’t like that, I don’t see that as a reason to change how the job works. Just because DNC was X in XI or whatever FF game doesn’t mean it has to be X in FFXIV as well.

Personally, I have zero qualms about how the job plays outside of perhaps shifting some skills and traits down a few levels to make sub-70 rotations not boring as sin or feeling bad when one syncs down, like in UCoB and UwU (e.g., shifting Flourish down a few levels to have it pre-70 would be excellent, in my opinion). I think the job is really well designed in terms of how it flows and feels even with the RNG.

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Feast or Famine never works in an mmo, the only reason we don\\'t get benched is because of people liking having us along to pad their own stats through Step buffs.

Trial 3 stacks and see where it goes from there, because right now we need something other than stat padding to ensure we\\'re not feeling like a charity case.

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It is very possible to have RNG jobs work very well in this game. DNC RNG is not punishing enough to say that the job does not work in this game. But I think this ultimately boils down to a difference in opinion. After the buffs in 5.1, I don’t feel really as if I’m griefing my party by existing as a DNC, where as before I did. But the entire physical ranged role as a whole was basically on the cusp of total exclusion. I think there’s still a bit more room for buffing the role, but not by a lot. I’ve never expected us to be top of the DPS charts in terms of aDPS or rDPS—that would likely make us broken.

I think some tweaks could be made, but I don’t think that the job as a whole needs to be redesigned in any significant way. I quite like how it plays—RNG included.

RDM vs BLM, Sharps put it best on his stream. "a hundred dps is about right given how much pressure a RDM can take off the healers, SMN being as powerful as they are is concerning given that they have that same priceless utility, they could well push everyone else out and we end up with BLMs benched again"

Some in chat talked about the current state of BRD and DNC, I take Sharps as someone that is very knowledgeable, raids Savage several times a day and helps fresh progs learn and clear.

"They haven't weighted them properly at all, it's something that desperately needs addressing, when you've got the most in demand utility on the top dps class in Raise and BRD and DNC are both highly punished for pretty standard utility, they definitely need something maybe consistency, something"

Sharps knows his dps classes inside out, when he's pointing to consistency, I'm gonna take his word.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

RDM vs BLM, Sharps put it best on his stream. "a hundred dps is about right given how much pressure a RDM can take off the healers, SMN being as powerful as they are is concerning given that they have that same priceless utility, they could well push everyone else out and we end up with BLMs benched again"

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Your post never specified RDM vs. BLM. You said RDM versus both other casters. RDM isn’t touching SMN. SMN is currently broken, just as it was in 4.1 because the developers overbuffed it too much. Again.

Looking at the 95th percentile for the fights for the last 2 weeks, just between BLM and RDM (values are rDPS):

E1S—
BLM: 13,068.66
RDM: 12,828.75
Difference: 239.91

E2S—
BLM: 15,817.64
RDM: 14,973.96
Difference: 843.68

E3S—
BLM: 14,590.14
RDM: 14,101.72
Difference: 488.42

E4S—
BLM: 14,871.81
RDM: 14,130.99
Difference: 740.82

All Bosses Average:
BLM: 14,565.33
RDM: 14,008.85
Difference: 556.48

So while RDM isn’t nearly as far behind BLM as it was in 5.0 (anywhere from ~1,000 to ~1,500 rDPS was usually the average difference per fight), I wouldn’t call this “competing fiercely” with the job. “Competing fiercely” is something more like within ~100 rDPS of one another. Some of the melee “compete fiercely” with one another now. RDM is still a bit behind.

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Some in chat talked about the current state of BRD and DNC, I take Sharps as someone that is very knowledgeable, raids Savage several times a day and helps fresh progs learn and clear.

"They haven't weighted them properly at all, it's something that desperately needs addressing, when you've got the most in demand utility on the top dps class in Raise and BRD and DNC are both highly punished for pretty standard utility, they definitely need something maybe consistency, something"

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I will agree that BRD is in a bad spot right now. The developer did not take into account how much the DoT potency nerfs would affect the job—or about how minuscule the song buffs actually are. I wonder if they overcompensated for Army’s Paeon’s buff (+3% D.Hit) with regards to their nerfs: because BRDs usually always clip that song 10 seconds early, so it’s not rolling for the full duration thereby not giving the party the full duration effect (because going 30-30-30 in your song rotation delays your burst, and you don’t want to do that unless a mechanic or phase demands it). Though, +3% D.Hit is still fairly lackluster compared to critical hit or direct damage. BRD would have likely been fine if they hadn’t taken potency off of its DoTs, and would not be getting curb-stomped by DNC.

The physical ranged now are in a spot where they are not at risk of exclusion, unlike prior to 5.1 where taking double BLM was straight up better than bringing a physical ranged—LB generation and +1% party buff be damned. I think they could up them a little bit more, but they don’t need huge amounts of damage adjustments. Because you also do not want to get into a scenario like HW where people start considering taking double physical ranged again OR a scenario like SB where one physical ranged dominated the role completely (BRD). I think those are both fears of the developers, so they are moving very slowly with regards to how they tune the physical ranged right now.

You have to be really careful not to buff the physical ranged so much that they become more desirable than the casters—or even the melee. With DNC specifically, you have to make sure that it’s rDPS contributions are not so high as to completely kill the other two physical ranged; because then it’s just Stormblood all over again, except with a new job dominating.


All that said, just because a person raids every day doesn’t mean they know jobs inside and out. If you want opinions on each job, the best people to talk to would be the theorycrafters for each one. Those are the people I tend to listen to when it comes to knowing where the jobs stand—and I also take into considering the FFLogs uploads and numbers provided on the site. They uploads are substantial enough to be fairly representative.

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Sharps knows his dps classes inside out, when he's pointing to consistency, I'm gonna take his word.

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I didn’t even know who Sharps was until you mentioned him and had to ask around for who he was. Is this a “SharplyDressedMan” on Twitch? Because I looked up his Lodestone, and he doesn’t even have DNC unlocked, BRD is only level 65, and MCH is level 59; and his uploads and raiding experience seem to be primarily BLM. I would feel hesitant to take the word of someone who doesn’t even have a job unlocked as to how well it plays/functions.

I may not be a theorycrafter, but I’m listening to those who do know the jobs well. I’m not just spouting off crap because I feel like it; and I think I have a fairly decent enough understanding of DNC to challenge your perceptions.

Yet we're dead last on the parsers aren't we?

So what do you propose? More potency? That just means when they fix the issue of feast or famine we'll end up laughably overpowered like has happened with SMN now they simplified their rotation to not be so busy.

Lowered cooldowns on tech/Devilment? More busy/ups our burst still doesn't solve our feast/famine issue SE does not like too busy as shown by NIN and SMN changes as well.

That's why I'm proposing giving us an extra stack or two on Flourish to give us better bad luck protection

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Yet we're dead last on the parsers aren't we?

So what do you propose? More potency? That just means when they fix the issue of feast or famine we'll end up laughably overpowered like has happened with SMN now they simplified their rotation to not be so busy.

Lowered cooldowns on tech/Devilment? More busy/ups our burst still doesn't solve our feast/famine issue SE does not like too busy as shown by NIN and SMN changes as well.

That's why I'm proposing giving us an extra stack or two on Flourish to give us better bad luck protection

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Dancer and Bard should always be last on the parse. Bear in mind, all parse overlays still go by Personal DPS which FFlogs deviated from. Therefore, what you're seeing on the parse itself isn't your actual damage contribution since Dancer's numbers tie into their utility.

Proc based jobs are always going to fluctuate due to the nature of their job design. Nevertheless, it all evens out in the end. Maybe you don't get procs early in the fight but suddenly get several back to back. There is little need to buff Dancer unless the dev team finally moves off their excessive mobility and buffs all jobs accordingly.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Yet we're dead last on the parsers aren't we?

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Where were you expecting DNC to be? At the top? Because that would put us in the same boat as SMN: broken. We shouldn’t be at the top of a parse; we’re a pseudo-support job. When you start placing support jobs at the top of a parse, then you run into problems.

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So what do you propose? More potency? That just means when they fix the issue of feast or famine we'll end up laughably overpowered like has happened with SMN now they simplified their rotation to not be so busy.

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I would propose more potency. Perhaps just a smidge in Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall. They are force proc’d enough that it could make a difference—after all; 50 potency on Rising Windmill and Bloodshower also helped make a difference. The “feast and famine” is not that terrible at level cap. I’d improve it at lower levels by readjusting when we learn Flourish—primarily, I’d move Flourish pre-70 at the least, to train DNCs into using it earlier and helping with the RNG. Because your RNG improves once you’re able to force proc your feather-granting skills.

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Lowered cooldowns on tech/Devilment? More busy/ups our burst still doesn't solve our feast/famine issue SE does not like too busy as shown by NIN and SMN changes as well.

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No need to change the cooldowns for TF or Devilment. 2 minute between bursts is fine, and goes well with Flourish’s 1 minute cooldown.

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That's why I'm proposing giving us an extra stack or two on Flourish to give us better bad luck protection

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I’d like you to try not spending your feathers the minute you get them, and then tell me how you feel about RNG. I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Where were you expecting DNC to be? At the top? Because that would put us in the same boat as SMN: broken. We shouldn’t be at the top of a parse; we’re a pseudo-support job. When you start placing support jobs at the top of a parse, then you run into problems.



I would propose more potency. Perhaps just a smidge in Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall. They are force proc’d enough that it could make a difference—after all; 50 potency on Rising Windmill and Bloodshower also helped make a difference. The “feast and famine” is not that terrible at level cap. I’d improve it at lower levels by readjusting when we learn Flourish—primarily, I’d move Flourish pre-70 at the least, to train DNCs into using it earlier and helping with the RNG. Because your RNG improves once you’re able to force proc your feather-granting skills.



No need to change the cooldowns for TF or Devilment. 2 minute between bursts is fine, and goes well with Flourish’s 1 minute cooldown.



I’d like you to try not spending your feathers the minute you get them, and then tell me how you feel about RNG. I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

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Not asking for us to be top, I'm saying our support skills are overvalued just like the BRDs.

5% consistent bonus to partner and self 5% for 50 seconds to team critical and direct rate by 20% for 20 seconds and a 10% damage reduction for 15 sec that won't stack with BRD or MCH version. Coming in at 11k dps

Meanwhile the AST (my main class) offers a massive damage buff opener which they can cover all dps with offering a minimum of 10% to each they card/Destiny, can consistently keep buffing damage throughout while waiting for destiny, have burst in the form of Earth Star/Giant Star which also doubles as a delayed area heal, consistency through DoTs and are parsing in full gear 8-9k dps. All while being a strong healer with good OGCDs and instants they can use between focused heal windows to keep damage/draw buffs flowing.

Now, explain to me, how it's acceptable for a DNC to offer their buffs, no Rez and bottom tier dps when you can just take an AST in the healer spot, take a MCH for the extra mitigation or if you don't need it, take the best dps in the game with the priceless Rezz skill?

People called me stupid when I said SMN had been over buffed on patch day, do the math, you're a smart person. We are in danger of being discluded and you're in denial of it.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Not asking for us to be top, I'm saying our support skills are overvalued just like the BRDs.

5% consistent bonus to partner and self 5% for 50 seconds to team critical and direct rate by 20% for 20 seconds and a 10% damage reduction for 15 sec that won't stack with BRD or MCH version. Coming in at 11k dps

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Let me correct you on some things, because your information is incorrect once again:

+5% damage bonus to self and partner at 100% uptime (Standard Finish last 60 seconds—you use Standard Step on cooldown); +5% to party for 20 seconds (Technical Finish); +20% Critical Hit/D.Hit for self and partner, not the full party (Devilment). 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds (Shield Samba) that doesn’t need to stack with MCH’s Tactician or BRD’s Troubadour because there’s literally no reason for it to.

And DNC’s damage is coming in at the following DPS values (95th percentile)—

E1S—
rDPS: 12,682.73
aDPS: 11,611.28

E2S—
rDPS: 14,267.84
aDPS: 12,603.29

E3S—
rDPS: 13,157.16
aDPS: 12,002.44

E4S—
rDPS: 13,468.97
aDPS: 11,930.76

You are looking at your parser and thinking that the number you see there is all the damage you’re offering—but you need to consider what your rDPS actually is because DNC offers a lot of buffs to the raid. Unfortunately, parsers don’t show that—the only way for you to really see it is to upload to FFLogs—but DNC’s total contribution includes more than just personal DPS. In terms of rDPS (the metric that matters), DNC is doing well over 11,000 at the high levels of play. Perhaps check your numbers before you start quoting them, because quoting incorrect DPS values isn’t helping your argument here.

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Meanwhile the AST (my main class) offers a massive damage buff opener

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I’m going to cut this right here: because why are you comparing DNC to AST? A physical ranged DPS versus a healer? There will never be a situation where DNC ever competes with AST for a raid slot, so this comparison is, frankly, irrelevant to this entire conversation.

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Now, explain to me, how it's acceptable for a DNC to offer their buffs, no Rez and bottom tier dps when you can just take an AST in the healer spot, take a MCH for the extra mitigation or if you don't need it, take the best dps in the game with the priceless Rezz skill?

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Why are you still comparing DNC to AST? They are not comparable because they are entirely separate roles. AST competes against WHM and SCH (and is still losing to both by a significant margin in all fights), and DNC competes with BRD and MCH (and is actually relatively equal to them in terms of uploads). The three physical ranged are relatively close to one another to the point where it doesn’t matter who you chose as your physical ranged. The only one that really lags behind now is BRD—not DNC (although, BRD is pretty good in TEA right now because you can multi-DoT for two straight phases just about). In terms of TEA prog, the streams I’ve watched haven’t really favored any of the physical ranged over the other, because they are all viable for the content.

DNC not having a Raise is irrelevant—that’s why there’s a caster slot (if your party really wants the extra raise). So not sure why you’re even bringing that up, unless you’re still trying to compare the job to a healer class. Again, they aren’t comparable.

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People called me stupid when I said SMN had been over buffed on patch day, do the math, you're a smart person. We are in danger of being discluded and you're in denial of it.

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Why don’t you actually look at the data and stop making false comparisons between two jobs in two entirely separate roles to back up your argument?

The last I heard from the physical ranged theorycrafters, all 3 physical ranged are viable and are not at the risk of total exclusion for double caster as we were back in Patch 5.0. BRD is suffering a bit in Savage right now—but actually doing fairly well in TEA—so it may require tweaks. But we are not at risk of a double-caster or triple ranged+caster scenario like before.

I’m sorry, I’ll listen to them before I will listen to you.

Why would I bring up the AST in the conversation?

Because it's what makes the DNC and BRD replaceable.

Bring an AST plus WHM or SCH, then SMN and any combination of dps the BRD and DNC are replaced.

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

Now let's see, what class struggles in those kinds of situations since they have a 2 minute timer on their burst windows.... Hmmm

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

Not low dps to burst window.

I'm honestly past caring if you want to listen or not, 11k dps is low (your figures back that up for heavens sake adps in the 11k range) and you're clearly doubling down despite the evidence you're presenting running counter to your own arguments!

Our adps needs to go up by 1k to be considered "in a good spot" (does that sound like I want overbuffing? No, I want us to pull our weight not feel like others have to make up for us constantly)

And for heavens sake, learn what power budget is and why the DNC and BRD are pretty much in trouble if they don't get some help. They're underbudgeted

You know it

I know it

The forum knows it

Every top raider knows it

Reddit knows it

And I don't doubt the balancing team know it too.

One of the top rated threads in here is about how poorly rdps (MCH/DNC/BRD) are doing right now.

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Why would I bring up the AST in the conversation?

Because it's what makes the DNC and BRD replaceable.

Bring an AST plus WHM or SCH, then SMN and any combination of dps the BRD and DNC are replaced.

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No, it doesn’t. Because even with an Di AST/SCH comp or (heaven forbid) WHM/Noct AST comp, that doesn’t impact the DPS composition. There are 4 DPS slots in a full party: 2 are usually for melee, 1 for a physical ranged, and 1 for a caster. If triple melee+caster or double caster was a viable comp, we’d be seeing it. But are we? No. Those were rare to see even back before 5.1 when the physical ranged role as a whole was technically inferior to double BLM.

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You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

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I’m benchmarking Savage because EX barely takes any skill anymore. Hades EX is not harder than Titan or Leviathan—the odd-number primals usually fall between the second and third floors. If you want to benchmark a job’s true performance, you look at higher-end content. That’s not EX. It’s barely Savage at this point, but Savage is the best we have right now until TEA results come in.

As for TEA, I literally just said in my previous post that the physical ranged theorycrafters have listed all three physical ranged as being viable options for TEA. BRD pulls ahead of DNC in Living Liquid and Brute Justice+Cruise Chaser because it can double-DoT, but DNC is not a bad choice. Neither is MCH. All world prog groups are carrying any of the three right now. But I’m just assuming you skipped over the part where I mentioned this, since it’s clear you aren’t actually reading what I’m saying.

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Now let's see, what class struggles in those kinds of situations since they have a 2 minute timer on their burst windows.... Hmmm

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

Not low dps to burst window.

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It’s an EX primal. It doesn’t take much to clear those, and they are a poor benchmark to base any job around, really. If you are struggling in Hades EX on DNC, that’s purely a you problem. You’re doing something incredibly wrong with your damage if you find yourself feeling gimped in there.

DNC burst isn’t inconsistent either; I’ve already addressed this. You’re focusing too much on feather RNG and Saber Dance RNG, but Technical Finish windows are designed for you to already have as many resources as possible pre-loaded before your burst (feathers), and Flourish gives you 5 proc’d skills to work with during the window. It’s also very rare you won’t have at least one Saber Dance during a TF window with a full party of 8 granting you Esprit. There’s a bit of fluctuation in terms of total damage, but I think you’re way over-exaggerating it.

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I'm honestly past caring if you want to listen or not, 11k dps is low (your figures back that up for heavens sake adps in the 11k range) and you're clearly doubling down despite the evidence you're presenting running counter to your own arguments!

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The numbers I quoted are actually higher than your 11,000 you quoted: the lowest DNC came in at was 11,611.28 aDPS in E1S—but I see now that you’re trying to shift the goalposts by quoting “11k range” for aDPS. But you’re still ignoring the key point here: there’s more to DNC than just aDPS: DNC is a support job—you need to look at its rDPS to know what it’s actually giving a raid, and its rDPS contribution is not low. It’s certainly not 11,000 in any Savage fight at a high level. I don’t know how many times I can repeat that until you actually understand it. aDPS is not the important metric here.

My evidence doesn’t counter my arguments. It supports it. You said that DNC only came in at 11,000 DPS (I assumed personal DPS was your argument here). I provided numbers that proved it comes in much higher in aDPS at a high level of play; and even higher when you consider rDPS, which is the metric you want to look at for a job that buffs a party because that is its total contribution to the raid. DNC gives more than just personal damage—it gives buffs. So you have to factor in those as well. You seem to be stubbornly ignoring this, and only caring about the number you see on your parse. There’s much more to it than that.

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Our adps needs to go up by 1k to be considered "in a good spot" (does that sound like I want overbuffing? No, I want us to pull our weight not feel like others have to make up for us constantly)

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If our aDPS were to increase to ~12,000 at the low tier of a 95th percentile, then the developers will likely nerf our support to compensate for that. If you feel like others are making up for your short-comings, perhaps that is an issue with your personal performance.

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And for heavens sake, learn what power budget is and why the DNC and BRD are pretty much in trouble if they don't get some help. They're underbudgeted

You know it

I know it

The forum knows it

Every top raider knows it

Reddit knows it

And I don't doubt the balancing team know it too.

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Really? We all know it, do we?

Then why are mentors in the DNC Balance channels telling people that DNC is fine right now? Or that all three physical ranged are viable for TEA? Why are world prog groups rolling with a physical ranged when they could just take double caster for the Raise you keep raving about? Why are top raiders even participating in TEA on DNC?

Perhaps it’s because we’re not nearly as dead as you seem to think? Perhaps because they also enjoy the job; and perhaps, since it’s as viable as the other three physical ranged, it doesn’t matter to then if it has lower personal damage? It was literally said in the DNC Balance channel yesterday when someone asked which physical ranged should they take into TEA: “BRD pulls ahead because it can multi-DoT, but all three are equally viable.”

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One of the top rated threads in here is about how poorly rdps (MCH/DNC/BRD) are doing right now.

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Are you talking about this thread? Because that thread was made before Patch 5.1—when the physical ranged were actually less valuable to a raid than taking 2 casters and sacrificing the 1% main stat party bonus from bringing a ranged. Patch 5.1 gave us a roughly ~4% increase to our damage. Did you miss those buffs? It may seem small, but it was enough to push us away from technically being worse than double BLM or triple melee+BLM back in 5.0 and 5.05. Even back then, though, it was rare to see a physical ranged excluded from even speedkills. There were only 3 ranked pre-5.1 for E2S and E3S that did triple melee+BLM. All other speedkills had a physical ranged.

If you mean this thread, I don’t see anything in here about the physical ranged being dead weight or unviable. But it’s not exactly a “top rated thread”; the opening post has a grand total of 5 likes.

If you mean another thread, link it please. In fact, why don’t you link all your data? And your sources? Seems like I’m the only one providing any information here. Why not give something concrete to back up your arguments for a change? The only “source” you’ve mentioned (but never really confirmed) is a possible caster main on Twitch talking about physical ranged jobs that he doesn’t even have unlocked or leveled.

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To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

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The theorycrafters are literally saying the exact same things I’m saying. I’m parroting them at this point. I’ve even been in the Balance asking and re-confirming some of the points that I am making to you here.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.

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you really should start listening... and stop talking... : /

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I feel hesitant to listen to suggestions of a DNC who admits to rotational errors.

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can feel ya : /

Just FYI ranged are brought to ultimate because tactician is necessary, and the 1% raid damage for having a ranged is meaningful. If they were just a bit worse on dps, I'm fairly certain they'd bring another caster or melee. In fact, that is what happened prior to the buffs.

DNC are "fine" in the same way that all ranged are "fine", because they're OK.

But they (ranged) are the lowest dps.

On *every* fight. This should be considered an issue.

Yes ranged have "movement advantage". But if that advantage doesn't actually translate to higher damage, then the point is moot.

Put it another way, if the penalties for playing other roles (can't cast while moving, can't melee unless melee range) were actual penalties, then there should be real fights where ranged outdps caster/melee right? There should be -some- fight that plays to ranged strengths right?

But there isn't. That is the issue.

There is no point to having a movement advantage, because there aren't actually any fights where that means you do more damage than other classes.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

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You do realize several world prog groups are running Bard or Dancer, yes? In fact, they make up the majority in terms of range representation. The idea Astro and Summoner replaces either is absolute nonsense. In no scenario, ever, does a healer impact the DPS party composition.

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Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

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And yet despite the range uploads are as followed:

Machinst: 21,771
Dancer: 21,341
Bard: 19,049

They beat out Ninja, Monk, Red Mage and Black Mage by several thousand. In what universe does this suggest Dancer and Bard are endanger of being replaced? By that logic, Monk may as well be deleted from existence; Dancer has more than 10,000 uploads. Simply put, in numerous instances now... math has not supported your arguments.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Put it another way, if the penalties for playing other roles (can't cast while moving, can't melee unless melee range) were actual penalties, then there should be real fights where ranged outdps caster/melee right? There should be -some- fight that plays to ranged strengths right?

But there isn't. That is the issue.

There is no point to having a movement advantage, because there aren't actually any fights where that means you do more damage than other classes.

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No? The whole idea is they don't want the Range to out-dps melee jobs because it would make them inferior for certain fights. If there were zero mobility tax, you'd bring only one melee for the 1% and they'd suffer even more in PF because no one does uptime strats. There always needs to be some tax, just not by a 1,000.

You completely miss the point, and actually reinforce exactly what I'm saying.

The idea is this, lets say ranged is last for 3/4 fights in a tier. You would then expect one fight in the tier, a super movement fight, where ranged are #1. That would make sense, in that every role and class has strengths and weaknesses, and there should be content that plays to a given role's strengths. And let me reiterate, I'm not saying like, on this fight ranged is 2000 dps above the others. No, I just mean a fight where they are competitive for first. Lets say a fight where MCH beats out BLM by 500 dps.

But instead now, ranged is always last, no matter whether its a stand still fight or a heavy movement fight. This isn't right.

Imagine you had the choice between two cars, one that's better on roads and one better offroad. But every race you do is 99% on a road and 1% offroad, and the offroad car always loses. Why would you ever pick the offroad car?

This is the scenario we are in now. And the answer is "because 1% role bonus exists". That isn't a merit of ranged, that is just, well, I guess we have to have -one- ranged. Given the choice, a raid leader putting together a top tier speedrun group would never have more than one ranged.

And lets just all remember, that this is what the discussion on balance is about. Everyone knows every class is viable for all content. We've established that. What we're discussing now is balance, and how they arrive on such balance. My point is their philosophy for balancing (or at least, what this forum assumes is the philosophy) is flawed.

To put it in the analogy again, what I'm saying is, lets make races 50% on road and 50% off road. Or 70% on road and 30% off road. Or something so that you can say, yea, this is why we want to bring more ranged, because this fight they do the best.

tl;dr: there is no point for ranged to have a movement advantage if despite the advantage, they are still always last. It's not an advantage unless there is content in which they excel at.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No? The whole idea is they don't want the Range to out-dps melee jobs because it would make them inferior for certain fights. If there were zero mobility tax, you'd bring only one melee for the 1% and they'd suffer even more in PF because no one does uptime strats. There always needs to be some tax, just not by a 1,000.

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for one, just as you said, it would make melee inferior for certain fights, right now phys ranged are worse for all fights, also 1% right now is around 700-800 dps per fight, melee lb which is the most universally used not included, if you think a 1000 dps tax is overblown than getting 1300-1400 dps 700-800, for the role, 600~ extra for using melee lb instead of caster lb where theres but a single target should make taking a single melee more than ideal, and at the point you take one melee you are doing uptime strats either way, so theres no use attributing "using uptime strats" as a reason to exclude a second melee as perfectly viable, maybe not as "necessary" as it is now, but theres also no real reason 2 melee +1phys/1 ranged should be better than 1 melee/2phys(or caster)/1 of the other

Thank you Panda and Akiudo for wording it better/ more eloquently than I was on the whole power budget argument.

You nailed what I was trying to say about how physical rdps are underbudget and why their position is in danger far better than I have.

In an ideal world melee dps and ranged dps would come out with the same overall contribution through the course of a fight, ranged do lower damage but are constantly damaging, melee have moments where they move out and stop dps so they are tuned higher.

Except as you both pointed out, uptime strats which are always in use negate this and the dps tax ranged has as a result is too high and needs redressing.

Thank you both of you for doing a much better job of presenting the argument than I was.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You completely miss the point, and actually reinforce exactly what I'm saying.

The idea is this, lets say ranged is last for 3/4 fights in a tier. You would then expect one fight in the tier, a super movement fight, where ranged are #1. That would make sense, in that every role and class has strengths and weaknesses, and there should be content that plays to a given role's strengths. And let me reiterate, I'm not saying like, on this fight ranged is 2000 dps above the others. No, I just mean a fight where they are competitive for first. Lets say a fight where MCH beats out BLM by 500 dps.

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No, actually. You are.

Your hypothetical now forces a melee to learn and gear an entirely separate role in order to optimize a fight because they're 100% inferior. The Range had this issue in 5.0 but their subsequent buffs have moved them outside any danger of being replaced whatsoever. If Machinist could eclipse Samurai in one or two fights per tier, there would be zero reason to bring a second melee ever. People would also be far less inclined to do uptime strats. Tanks, in many cases, can either mitigate through mechanics unless it's a complete one shot. Or they simply don't lose enough for it to matter. Melee don't have this luxury. O12S is a prime example of this. Hello, World uptime was designed exclusively to benefit the two melee not the tanks. PF never even attempted it because it was harder. This would only further devalue melee because unless you're in a top tier group, people aren't going to want to cater strats around a single person.

Being competitive is one thing, which we both agree on. If Samurai did 16,000 on a non-melee friendly fight and Machinist was within striking distance of that, it's competitive. Doing 500 more... renders Samurai obsolete, especially if people aren't willing to cater strategies entirely around one person.

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Imagine you had the choice between two cars, one that's better on roads and one better offroad. But every race you do is 99% on a road and 1% offroad, and the offroad car always loses. Why would you ever pick the offroad car?

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This analogy falls apart when for 1-2 tiers out of four, you either need to put your team at a disadvantage or spend $60,000 on a second vehicle.

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tl;dr: there is no point for ranged to have a movement advantage if despite the advantage, they are still always last. It's not an advantage unless there is content in which they excel at.

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You're ignoring range mobility is still advantageous to the raid. Even if Machinist doesn't surpass Samurai in DPS individually, it's a bigger loss to have any melee disengage for mechanics. Examples of this are Godka, Omega, M/F, Final Omega, Leviathan and Titan. Just to name a few. None of this touches on Ultimate, where bringing the range up to match melee DPS would make the latter role worthless. TEA has so much forced downtime on melee, the 1% may not be enough to keep any of them.

Simply put, mobility may not be utilized as much as it should in encounter designs. But it's still an advantage melee players don't have. Poor boss positioning, certain mechanics and non-uptime strategies are all things Range don't have to consider whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

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... this wasn't even your initial argument. You started off claiming Red Mage was competing with Summoner and Black Mage, which was laughably off base. When HyoMin disproved that, you shifted it to Dancer and Bard being excluded over Machinist, which was again disproven as complete nonsense. You then changed it yet again to the ridiculous notion Astro somehow impacts Bard or Dancer. At this point, you're just piggybacking off an entirely different argument because yours were immensely flawed. And still doesn't work because the Range aren't in any danger of losing their position. You will never drop Bard, Dancer or Machinist for any other role as of 5.1. Now one can certainly argue they should still be buffed more, but that's different than suggesting they're endanger of losing their spot.

In that regard, you're just flat out wrong.

Only responding to the first half.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Just FYI ranged are brought to ultimate because tactician is necessary, and the 1% raid damage for having a ranged is meaningful. If they were just a bit worse on dps, I'm fairly certain they'd bring another caster or melee. In fact, that is what happened prior to the buffs.

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And, if you had read what I had written, you would see that I already acknowledged the state of the physical ranged prior to Patch 5.1 and how triple melee+BLM or double BLM was technically better than a physical ranged and their 1%. But even so, people still brought physical ranged in the majority of the top speedkills. There were only 3/10 of the Top 10 for E2S and E3S that completely dropped a physical ranged in favor of a triple melee+BLM comp. Most others still took them—either BRD or DNC. MCH, unfortunately, didn’t have much prescience in the Top 10.

The AOE mitigation from Tactician/Samba/Troubadour is meaningful in TEA, yes. But have you also been keeping up with how strong BRD in particular is in there? With the ability to double DoT Living Liquid + Living Hand in Phase 1, and the ability to double DoT Cruise Chaser and Brute Justice in Phase 2, the job isn’t anything to scoff at. DNC can AOE during Phase 1 at any point LL and the Hand are together. Same for BRD. MCH is the one that slips behind a little here but it’s still valuable to take.

If you’d paid attention to Jan’s argument in this thread, their entire premise is that DNC is struggling and is in the verge of being excluded. But that is simply untrue, and even though I cite where DNC theorycrafters and mentors disagree with the claim that DNC is borderline unviable, they continue to argue with their feelycraft. And they try to cite a very easy EX primal to back up their claims as the only shred of evidence they can offer. Nothing else they’ve said they have bothered to attempt to prove, and they even tried to say healer compositions affect the types of DPS one takes, which is flat out incorrect.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

With the ability to double DoT Living Liquid + Living Hand in Phase 1, and the ability to double DoT Cruise Chaser and Brute Justice in Phase 2, the job isn’t anything to scoff at. DNC can AOE during Phase 1 at any point LL and the Hand are together. Same for BRD. MCH is the one that slips behind a little here but it’s still valuable to take.

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while this may very well be true its still terrible balancing, bard, the current ultimate notwithstanding got buffed for basically nothing (this is not feelycrafting here, looking at normalized bard scores at 95% for savage shows bard dps actually dropped compared to all other classes) so if bard was in danger of being excluded before the patch it literally has to be in danger of being excluded now, especially with smn being as strong or stronger than blm you wouldn't even need some gimmick 3 melee or double blm setup. Now this problem is bard exclusive for being the weakest in a weak role, but the problem doesn't exist because mch is too strong, its still stemming from the role being too weak.

and if you do look at the current ultimate you still can easily see faults in how it was handled. Bard isn't just strong for multidotting, its also strong because its aoe is usefull for 2 enemies instead of the typical three, whenever you can tank both bosses together bards filler gets switched out from a 260~ potency attack (burst shot/refulgant if proccs) to a 380~ potency attack (quick nock hitting 2 enemies+30% chance for a rain of death reset), bard being literally useless on single target, yet really really strong on 2 is not balance, not when "having 2 enemies, both of them attackable and for an extendet period of time" hasn't happened in over a year, also you could easily buff bard single target while nerfing its 2 enemy aoe capabilitys.


for funs sake, don't pinpoint me on numbers, this is more a general "here, like this you can buff single target while keeping 2 targets as is or even down"

burst shot/refulgant arrow +30 potency each
reset dot nerf, so both dots +10, heck buff them, make it +20 on one of them /maybe give them a falloff rate like aoes, if the server cant handle which was the original dot then just let them fall of together until say 80%, so 1 target dotted+100% damage, 2 targets dotted/both deal 90% damage, 3 and up=80% damage

make it so each dot can only procc repertoire once, as dots are checked by server ticks it cant be too hard to make it so only 1 procc per used dot is possible even if you multidot.
change quick nock, -20 on potency but give it a proper aoe range instead of the shitty cone that misses half the enemies in a big pull, would be a nerf for small groups, but in a typical dungeon run i assure you you miss more enemies then you hit with quick knock
give apex arrow the typical potency fall of most other aoe skills have for hitting multiple targets

+maybe give bard some "bane" like ability so if you got like 6 enemies instead of breaking your fingers to multidot them just press a button, that should help (given a group of say 5 enemies) counteract any aoe nerf the proposed changes imposed on bard while it for sure wouldn't be used on 2 targets, just put it on the global cooldown and let reduce dot damage by 50%. (i said "bane like", not "literally give them bane")

congratulations, you now managed to give bard a much needed single target dps boost while keeping or more likely even nerfing its 2 mob capabilitys.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

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I’ve already acknowledged BRD in this thread. And acknowledged that it needs tweaks, since one Ultimate fight is hardly a good fight to balance the job around. I’ve also acknowledged that slight potency increases for physical ranged would not be a bad thing, provided that the buffs did not tip the role into broken territory. If you have been reading my replies in this thread, you would have seen that.

The conversation between myself and Jan was primarily about DNC (since this thread is about DNC), and me contesting their insistence that the job was risking exclusion; as well as correcting various bits of information that they were incorrect about. Bringing up BRD is an entirely different topic than what they and I were primarily discussing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

snip

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no but it was argued that "the physical ranged role" is "saved" after the patch, i disagree with that, cause yes bard is the extreme of the extremes its still part of that role and the reason why bard is hurting so bad indeed is the position of the role as a whole, not bards particular position in that role cause obviously no role will ever be absolutely perfectly balanced. Mind you i'm not saying you intendet to derail from problems by stating that "x situation is fine" but it is important to see the whole picture, and the whole picture right now is that people in this thread argue if ranged are/are not fine, into that discussion you brought bards performance in ultimate which intentionally or not makes it sound like its actually not too weak (and you can literally swap it out for any caster outside of ultimate for a dps gain/minimal dps loss+gaining chain rezz capabilitys in case of redmage). either way, don't want to derail this thread away from dancer so with that i will let this be, there are enough threads on the role as a whole or also bard in particular.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

no but it was argued that "the physical ranged role" is "saved" after the patch, i disagree with that, cause yes bard is the extreme of the extremes its still part of that role and the reason why bard is hurting so bad indeed is the position of the role as a whole, not bards particular position in that role cause obviously no role will ever be absolutely perfectly balanced. Mind you i'm not saying you intendet to derail from problems by stating that "x situation is fine" but it is important to see the whole picture, and the whole picture right now is that people in this thread argue if ranged are/are not fine, into that discussion you brought bards performance in ultimate which intentionally or not makes it sound like its actually not too weak (and you can literally swap it out for any caster outside of ultimate for a dps gain/minimal dps loss+gaining chain rezz capabilitys in case of redmage). either way, don't want to derail this thread away from dancer so with that i will let this be, there are enough threads on the role as a whole or also bard in particular.

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It was argued that the physical ranged are not going to be excluded for a triple melee+caster comp or a double caster comp after 5.1 adjustments were made. Even considering how BRD has fallen—which I have acknowledged in this thread and others—the role is not unviable. I only brought up BRD’s performance in TEA because Jan actually brought up how I was “flawed” in arguing Savage rankings and metrics for DNC’s current performance when we should consider Hades EX instead (which is a poor metric to look at considering EX is a step below Savage) and TEA once we have data for that.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.

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I was merely bringing up BRD and DNC performance in TEA to correct this misconception that the “initial results don’t look good”—BRD is actually kind of overpowered in TEA right now. Bringing them up in this fight had little to do with balance talk, and more to do with correcting misinformation.

I later repeated this to another poster because they seemed to be under the assumption that the physical ranged are only being brought due to Samba/Troubador/Tactician—but that’s also not the case.

You’re free to disagree if you like, but I have already spoken with DNC mentors and theorycrafters: they have all asserted what I have about DNC, and that the job is fine. I know that BRD was hit hard with 5.1, and I never denied that. It could use tweaks—be it potency boosts or return another utility to it (e.g., Foe Requiem) without hitting its personal damage again to bring it back up. But it’s not unviable.

It’s also not a gain to drop the physical ranged role and take two casters, which is what you seem to be implying here. If you don’t believe me, feel free to double check with the physical ranged mentors and theorycrafters.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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the problem with the kind of balancing where you keep the physical ranged inheritely weaker (as people have argued in this thread you would literally never take a second melee if the physical ranged pulled ahead by even a 100 dps in 2 out of 4 fights while falling behind in the others, which i highly doubt, theres more than enough reason to take 1 melee, the second while not necessarely usefull also is hardly a liability on the group at that point where you allready took the first one.) and why i say brd in fact being weaker than double caster comps (ultimate again notwithstanding, bard may very well even be overpowered there, but thats really on the fight design and could be fixed even while buffing bard single target) is a a role problem, not a bard problem is this:

no role will ever be perfectly balanced, even in itself, if you argue physical ranged need even just a 300 dps tax on the melees that would mean 300 dps on the weakest melee,(again dps buffs are just that, raid dps, so no real reason samurai has to be above say ninja and also no reason why mch should be measured against samurai while bard should measure against nin for example) which would in turn mean 800 on the strongest. also even if the physical ranged where in the range of 200 dps to each other that would still leave the weakest physical 1000 dps short, you literally can't balance them closer than that if you argue for a general ranged tax unless you get everyone even closer together, which obviously would allways be the goal, but at a certain point indeed not realistic anymore, thats why this approach doesn't work, and in fact bends over the role backwards right now, its not just "mch is dealing worse dps than ninja" its "mch is 'missing' 500 dps more on samurai than it is on ninja, and bard is lacking another 400",




you simply cant correctly balance a whole role as "weaker than another role",to do this you would either allready start at 2-3% from the top (what the weakest melee is missing on the strongest) on which you then add another 2-3% (anything less and people that aren't happy now will just cry "margin of error") so it is indeed weaker instead of just "equal to the weaker links in the role" while than having general role imbalances of 3-5% on top of that which basically leaves us where we are now

or

you balance the ranged role from the top (so samurai right now) and take say 3% from that. at this point the weakest class would still be 5-6% short of the top even if the role in itself gets closer together (so a good ~800 dps) which would end up in a situation where (lets just say the relative strength within the group stays as is) bard would be where mch is now, which generally is seen as the "strongest of the most definitely still pretty weak" group, so way better than now, but still not a position a class should be in, whereas mch would allready reach the point where the people that now argue no one would ever take a second melee if theres any chance would cry about mch making ninja obsolete because on one out of 4 fights mch actually deals 20 dps more than nin on the 95% percentile.

if you generally agree they need to be taxed on a level where even on a heavy movement fight they lose out to melees than at least part of that role will allways end up at a level that is in fact very much underpowered, yet this notion was bought forward more than once, and (again, taking the whole picture, i.e. this thread into account) as you not once disagreed with that side but only picked apart any tiniest detail of people saying the role is too weak in general even if you agreed they are too weak as is than this is something which i at least would say is something to argue about, after all the whole idea of a forum aside from collecting and sharing ideas is to actually exchange arguments. So yes, i very much argue that even if its just bard that falls short it indeed is a role issue that makes this happen.

. . .I don't know how you all don't go insane from all that stuff.

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Animadragon

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

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I wouldn't mind more forced procs except for feathers. Not a full 4 feathers, that would lead to a lot of overflow, but just like 2 at a time. Would make Dancer feels a lot faster paced with more feathers in its hat, pun intended.

#SDoGCDpls

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Originally Posted by Neela

#SDoGCDpls

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I stand by what I said regarding this. They take Saber Dance off the GCD and I'll have nothing else to ask for, forever.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

no role will ever be perfectly balanced

you balance the ranged role from the top (so samurai right now) and take say 3% from that. at this point the weakest class would still be 5-6% short of the top even if the role in itself gets closer together (so a good ~800 dps) which would end up in a situation where (lets just say the relative strength within the group stays as is) bard would be where mch is now, which generally is seen as the "strongest of the most definitely still pretty weak" group, so way better than now, but still not a position a class should be in, whereas mch would allready reach the point where the people that now argue no one would ever take a second melee if theres any chance would cry about mch making ninja obsolete because on one out of 4 fights mch actually deals 20 dps more than nin on the 95% percentile.

if you generally agree they need to be taxed on a level where even on a heavy movement fight they lose out to melees than at least part of that role will allways end up at a level that is in fact very much underpowered, yet this notion was bought forward more than once, and (again, taking the whole picture, i.e. this thread into account) as you not once disagreed with that side but only picked apart any tiniest detail of people saying the role is too weak in general even if you agreed they are too weak as is than this is something which i at least would say is something to argue about, after all the whole idea of a forum aside from collecting and sharing ideas is to actually exchange arguments. So yes, i very much argue that even if its just bard that falls short it indeed is a role issue that makes this happen.

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>Tax for movement being ranged

> Fights no longer have Windows of melee dps stopping and they have similar, decent mobility

>optimal strats are all uptime strats where movement is minimal

>claims were taxed for our kits, when classes with better support skills aren't taxed as highly

Are you absolutely sure youre a DNC player because the more I read from you the more Im like.... Nobody can be that blind to the performance gaps.. Nobody can be that deliberately ignorant about DNC damage being broken down into phases (Burst/Waiting/Building, you didn't want to hear me out, you just assumed I was doing it wrong so I let you go with it, I parsed 65 percentile at i453 so ya know.. )

Nobody can believe the power budget we have is remotely correct. I'm beginning to think you arent a DNC at all.

Tiny rant: I hate that DNC is such a bandwagon job. I get in raids with 3 dancers, it's like come on.. this gonna be slow -.-.

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Originally Posted by Animadragon

I have no idea how the thread degenerated beyond its scope of "Flourish's design is flawed", but personally it's not really Flourish's design that's flawed but rather the dead time in-between cooldowns whether it's because they're on cooldown or if you're not at a level that has Flourish available. I think Dancer right now is really well designed minus maybe the Steps being heavily cooldown reliant but SkS brings it down a fair bit. The proc system ties rather nicely into your GCD consideration to the point where I think there should be a timer visible for when your combo expires (e.g Fountain).

Given the focus on cooldowns I feel like the design follow-ups on Dancer should be related to its GCDs.

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Skill speed is bad for DNC though.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

Tiny rant: I hate that DNC is such a bandwagon job. I get in raids with 3 dancers, it's like come on.. this gonna be slow -.-.


Skill speed is bad for DNC though.

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I hear ya there, scales so poorly and messes with your rotation timings too much, far better w Crit > Det > D.Hit. Only using skill speed myself at the moment while I upgrade some pieces of armour and do some fine tuning.

I think DNC is bandwagon mainly because like GBR they're pretty new and new players pick them up since it's a dps that starts at 60, as people realise they're undertuned they drop them and buy a boost for the latest fotm (SMNs literally everywhere now) I like that they're semi popular as it gives more opportunity for feedback on tuning the class to a better state.

Truth be told, I honestly don't think they're in the gutter, need a full rework omfg bad, there's no a single class in that state any more, but with the mentality around Savage/Ultimate we do need some fine tuning as that 3k gap between DNC/BRD and the rest of the pack is very noticeable in the uptime strat meta. Why I wanted Flourish to get the RDM accelerate treatment as I do think that would really help bridge the gap, I also like the Sabre Dance coming off GCD suggestion as that would help immensely with our build up phase of our rotation.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

>Tax for movement being ranged

> Fights no longer have Windows of melee dps stopping and they have similar, decent mobility

>optimal strats are all uptime strats where movement is minimal

>claims were taxed for our kits, when classes with better support skills aren't taxed as highly

Are you absolutely sure youre a DNC player because the more I read from you the more Im like.... Nobody can be that blind to the performance gaps.. Nobody can be that deliberately ignorant about DNC damage being broken down into phases (Burst/Waiting/Building, you didn't want to hear me out, you just assumed I was doing it wrong so I let you go with it, I parsed 65 percentile at i453 so ya know.. )

Nobody can believe the power budget we have is remotely correct. I'm beginning to think you arent a DNC at all.

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while i in fact are no dancer what was argued here in my case was ranged dps as a whole, also i have to somewhat doubt your reading comprehension here.

I'll admit i tend to go around things somewhat convuluted but what i stated here was literally (taking my whole argument aswell as not ignoring who i quoted) IF you do what you quoted me on you cant tax them in the way currently done because no matter how you do it they will allways at the very best end up at the edge of "one small missstep and at least part of the role risks becoming obsolete, doesn't matter if its bard/dancer or machinist. , also i wasn't the one saying you did anything wrong ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

while i in fact are no dancer what was argued here in my case was ranged dps as a whole, also i have to somewhat doubt your reading comprehension here.

I'll admit i tend to go around things somewhat convuluted but what i stated here was literally (taking my whole argument aswell as not ignoring who i quoted) IF you do what you quoted me on you cant tax them in the way currently done because no matter how you do it they will allways at the very best end up at the edge of "one small missstep and at least part of the role risks becoming obsolete, doesn't matter if its bard/dancer or machinist. , also i wasn't the one saying you did anything wrong ?

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Caught the wrong quote there, apologies, was meant for the two that have spent half the thread sneering/acting like we should be 3k behind the rest of the pack with their half evidence (presenting the top ends dps numbers while ignoring the glaring obvious of how far the phys ranged dps numbers are behind)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

I hear ya there, scales so poorly and messes with your rotation timings too much, far better w Crit > Det > D.Hit. Only using skill speed myself at the moment while I upgrade some pieces of armour and do some fine tuning.

I think DNC is bandwagon mainly because like GBR they're pretty new and new players pick them up since it's a dps that starts at 60, as people realise they're undertuned they drop them and buy a boost for the latest fotm (SMNs literally everywhere now) I like that they're semi popular as it gives more opportunity for feedback on tuning the class to a better state.

Truth be told, I honestly don't think they're in the gutter, need a full rework omfg bad, there's no a single class in that state any more, but with the mentality around Savage/Ultimate we do need some fine tuning as that 3k gap between DNC/BRD and the rest of the pack is very noticeable in the uptime strat meta. Why I wanted Flourish to get the RDM accelerate treatment as I do think that would really help bridge the gap, I also like the Sabre Dance coming off GCD suggestion as that would help immensely with our build up phase of our rotation.

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Not to mention make the job feel a lot more fast paced between Fan Dance phases. Much as I love playing Dancer, when you're building up feathers, it can seem to be very dull with nothing filling those oGCD slots.

The only problem with moving Sabre Dance off the GCD is Flourish phases. By the time we get to that point, often we have 3 or 4 feathers waiting to be used, with additional procs happening as we use our Flourishing attacks; our plate becomes very full and it would be hard to fit SD in there. It becomes even more of a problem during Tech Dance when we get even more Esprit. Perhaps SD could fill in the gap if you don't get a FD3 proc, but even then, you would have to worry about clipping and rolling the dice anyways.

This isn't to say that moving SD off the GCD is a bad idea, but it's good to consider the cons as well as the pros. In this case, it would improve our sustained damage at the cost of our burst.