do you think this Wall to Wall pulling (in roulettes)is hurting the healer population

It hurts as an astro >.<

It's a problem when tanks are doing it when they

1) Do it without knowing what their body can handle.
2) Do it without any CD usage.
2a) Do it when CDs are down.
3) Do it when the healer can't handle it.

I imagine a lot of healers as of late are running into tanks that fall under 1-2a. I will welcome any pull size, but I am thinking to myself as they continue going for more and more mobs "Can your body handle all of that?". Once they stop, it's clear for sure what my answer is, if it I cannot get not even 1 holy off before I need to chuck Cure II at them, followed by tetra.

Wall to wall pulls only hurt at the newbie level as it overwhelms people who are learning the game. By 80, they should be settled in and used to it.

I don't like the mass pulls at 80 either, but I still do it in order to challenge myself as a healer. As long as people don't bitch that I'm not DPSing because I have to chain heal, mass pull away.

What I object to are the ones that do it mindlessly, even if the group can't keep up with the pace. Those guys piss me off.

Healers in a Square Enix game know what they are getting in to

https://i.imgur.com/ODrswR8.jpg

I highly doubt that pulling at a humane pace is hurting the healer population. It's the only way any of them can have fun in this game outside of trials and raiding.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Actually, they outright said they catered to the people who complained about getting "useless" cards. While some might assume that meant everything but Balance, I suspect a lot of people on the casual side found Spire, Ewer and even Arrow "useless" because they didn't know how to use them. It wasn't catered at all towards Savage raiders. No one in Savage was asking for Astro changes whatsoever. It's my belief these changes occurred because the devs overreacted to "meta" and basically destroyed most utility in this game.

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I say this as a casual player but I feel like it had everything to do with balance. Since people kept hollering "If you don't fish balance, you were bad."
They had to strip every single thing that made AST what it was into a boring balance bot with no variety whatsoever.
Now people aren't fishing for balance it's fish for seals where I can barely be asked to do that.

When I played AST, I dealt with the cards I got and changed if I really needed to.
Spire has it's TP in need moments, but I usually fodder up for AoE. I loved AoEing cards, loved potency + cards and extending cards.
I liked old Crown/Lady cards. I can add a bit of DPS to the boss or I can use a mini ED on someone.
Don't forget about the old C/O and the most loved Time Dia. I had fun, which what should matter in this game.
I didn't try and get balance, but was happy when I did get it. I don't care for big numbers. I just wanna have fun.
The old card system is what definitely made AST what it was.

This was as close as Time Mage as we were going to get as well. The identity is gone now.
I'm just irritated that I mean...you stripped us down to nothing, give us no new healers to play with.
Use a sorry excuse to balance us, listened to the few guys screaming in the back and now even he ain't happy lol.
Healers have always been a dime a dozen but now look.

I think there’s a lack of healers in this game because as a healer, it’s killing me to be paired with bad DPS. And there are A TON of bad DPS in DF. They don’t aoe, pulls take forever to die, it makes me spam holy for hours, which is boring, and it drains ressources/ tank cds for absolutely nothing. I queue more and more as BLM solely for this reason, and it has nothing to do with w2w or healers rework.

Honestly, sometime in heavensward I came to just accept that tanks pull big whether I like it or not, and taught myself how to handle it. Sometimes the tanks to squishy and sometimes it's perfect. No use crying over spilt milk.

Also say what you want about ast and its cards, from my experience proper use of them makes mobs melt, so no complaints here. While holy has the stun, I prefer gravity's range to keep me out of the aoe spam in melee.

I'll echo that wall to walls pulls are pretty standard starting @50. As a matter of fact, several of those 50 dungeons allow some of the most ridiculous wall to wall pulls seen in the game and they've been around for ages.

Perhaps it really is spite that is causing this apparent shortage of healers. Is it due to their simplified kits though? That I am not to sure about. It's very easy to assign the culprit to that, but I believe it goes much deeper, and say it is more like 'the straw that broke the camel's back' kind of situation.

I don't feel the current healer DPS kits are the true issue. WHM was always the dungeon mower. It was the most enjoyable during dungeons because you were getting the best bang for your buck. What several fail to see is that pre ShB, SCH and AST toolkits were underutilized because you basically go in there and do what we are doing right now: Spam your AoE on trash, your filler on single target, and toss an ogcd heal when required. You didn't need to spread shields, place a fairy; hell, even AoE balance was overkill and just gave AST something to fish for. In order for SCH and AST to truly shine, they needed to be in difficult 8-man content.

SCH suffered the most when it came to DPS buttons to push. Having those buttons gave them some sort of satisfaction when running dungeons. Their toolkit in dungeons is now more underutilized than ever. I can't say I blame them for bowing out. AST is actually improved for running dungeons. The constant damage buffs are satisfying to me, and keeps me busy between the nuking and any actual healing that is required. However, unlike other ASTs out there; I support the change to the system. WHM is just better at what it was already good at, so they don't have much reason to be griping right now.

If we look at the problem with healers being with just SCH and AST; I can get behind the SCH woes, but AST I feel is improved because I always saw through the illusion of choice that was its predecessor. However, regardless of how I or anyone feels about the SCH and AST changes, I can still understand that such a drastic change to both jobs will cause some disarray for sure. Just not enough because of healer diversity.

As far back as I go, there has always been diversity within the healer community between those who prefer to spend their time healing, and those who enjoy weaving offensive abilities between situations that require healing. However, the former really never had much of a defense against the latter because DPSing when heals are not needed is basically common sense. Over time, their arguments began to shift more towards the side of faulty encounter and job design in order to establish validity in their arguments. This is when the amount of healer downtime and how powerful ogcd heals are started coming to the surface.

One would think, that one healer demographic would simply replace the other, which would have been the case if SE didn't try to fix the healer issues from two totally different angles. They simplified the kits, but did not change encounter design to give them more to do and now both camps are dissatisfied. Healers that DPS during downtime not because they enjoy it, but because it is required of them along with the new recruits make up the majority those in the queues. A very similar situation to tanks when it's late in an expansion.

All of this is without mention of healer neglect during all expansions, no new healer for two expansions, and the leap frogging AST and WHM have been doing since late HW.

tl;dr healers from all camps are fed up with the devs choices in regards to healing.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

Healers in a Square Enix game know what they are getting in to

https://i.imgur.com/ODrswR8.jpg

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Sometimes, I think that is why I am still doing it. Over the last several years, I haven't been surprised by any decisions SE has made when it comes to healing. I'm basically shooting the rubberband in my soup back at the chef, and then just keep right on eating it.

Personally, I got all my healers to 80 and then pretty much quit healing because of bad tanks, not wall pulls necessarily. I get more bad tanks than good ones, but that might be because of my Data Center, idk. This is also the first MMO I've played where healing is annoying and unrewarding. & I never even got to play a healer before ShB and I don't even like the changes, I can't imagine how vet healers must feel about the ShB healers lmao between that & bad tanks/dps I don't blame anyone for not wanting to heal

Healer don’t play healer now because of people taking 2 years to pull the trash and the new tanks ain’t great either, wall to wall pulls are more engaging then me slapping that sick art of war key 50 times and smashing an excog on the tank and having the pull end. We haven’t gone anywhere tbh. A lot of healer mains now are sleepers, they only play with people they know they like to play with.

I would just like to take the time to say that - to anyone who wants to pick up GNB as their first tank, and not gear for level 60 content.
Don't. Don't ever tank.

AST population probably halved with the ShB changes, so there's that.

I don't do dungeon roulettes as healer or tank anymore because I despise big pulls... and I prefer healing or tanking to any other role, which has been the case in every MMO I've played. Yes, I've pulled them off fine, no, I don't enjoy them, so there you go. I'm hardly the only one either - keep in mind most of the player population never goes to the forums.

I've stuck to healing/tanking trials/raids only now since a few months before Shb hit (did ONE dungeon roulette as SCH after ShB launched), and I'll keep doing so until something fundamentally changes.

Actually, big pulls have been normal since 3.0, and has more to do with the WHM-ification of HLRs and the removal of mitigation abilities like protect and Bole that seems to be designed to limit pull sizes, which is futile, or incentivize healing gcd use, in which we have so many redundant healing abilities that only Squishy-pug-tanks will ever justify their existence (Non-Thancred-GNBs) or pulls to boss rooms

The changes they made to healers made big pulls less fun, I assume the scholar mains who liked to bane have all left to play a different game.

For a lot of leveling dungeons, big pulls seem to result in needing to spam heals more than before. Not sure if mobs hit more or heals do less or leveling tanks never know how to cooldown, but the healer probably gets blamed regardless. I know the meme is "healers are supposed to be healing, if you want to DPS then play a DPS", but that's kinda what happened and now there's less healers.

Been trying to help as WHM alt at 80 with queue times. I think I'm doing an average job at it. But experienced my first dismissal from party because I was having trouble keeping tank alive on lvl 74 content, with most their gear in 60-70 range. Just how much undergearing should a "good" healer be able to handle?

I tend to let the healer choose on whether on not they want big pulls. I prefer using WHM to heal tanks because they're much more OP than other healers in both damage and healing, they also have a crowd stun. And I feel more comfortable tanking with a WHM.

Other than the first pull of Anyder, all wall pulls are just two packs in expert roulette. If you cant handle double pulls at max level (without applying the strawman of a poorly geared or non cooldown using tank) it may be time to admit you're not a very good healer.

Right, as an alt I don't even at 80 have much experience at gauging my effectiveness as WHM. I know to keep both HoTs up on tank, shield them on buster, and keep them focused for cures, and have 2 ogcd instants usually. So it was almost enough to cause me to just go back to my main. I'm just asking because I don't know where to draw the line between I need to do the job better, and they need to Gear up. What is a reasonable min gear range for content? For lvl X content, X -??

What confuses me personally what do people want when they ask for more healing intensive fights? More wack-a-mole style of play with health bars? More AoE damage? Our AoE healing would make that a none issue. More buffs and debuffs would be a balance nightmare, as for more mitigation tools, unless they make them all the same.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

Healers in a Square Enix game know what they are getting in to

https://i.imgur.com/ODrswR8.jpg

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You know, when I first began to play FFXIV, I secretly hoped I could, one day, dropkick my enemies and Cure my allies.
Now, with the direction Squeen has chosen to go, that will never be..

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Originally Posted by Thi

I'd say the changes to healers kits in ShB is what lowered the healer population. Wall to wall pulls have been normal since HW.

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Actually they've been normal since the release of wanderers palace back in ARR before CT content was even released.
Some of us were doing it even before wanderers palace to be honest.

I personally don't really like wall to wall pulls as a healer. I like a mix of dps and healing. When it's wall to wall it's just become a game of spam healing (worst when the tank isn't handling the pull so well). For me, I came from MMOs that allowed healers to dps and heal. It was way more fun that way and it WAS fun here too... But then they butchered SCH to the seventh hell and for some reason made WHM the op healer...I just cannot... If they are trying to follow the lore of making WHM a force to be feared then that's fine but the other healers should also be sticking more to their lore too. AST use to be able to read cards but...SCH used to be a tactician at battle but...it's all become so frustrating...MCH is now becoming my main...

Thing is if you like a mix of DPS and healing, a single pull isn't gonna give you that, single pulls can be healed without ever using a gcd heal.

I'll be honest. I actually hate when tanks don't wall to wall pull when I'm playing a healer...

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Originally Posted by Thmas

Right, as an alt I don't even at 80 have much experience at gauging my effectiveness as WHM. I know to keep both HoTs up on tank, shield them on buster, and keep them focused for cures, and have 2 ogcd instants usually. So it was almost enough to cause me to just go back to my main. I'm just asking because I don't know where to draw the line between I need to do the job better, and they need to Gear up. What is a reasonable min gear range for content? For lvl X content, X -??

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By both hots do you mean regen and asylum? Cos if you mean regen and medica 2 please do not do this just for the tank, medica 2 is insanely inefficient at regening single target and youre just throwing your mp down the toilet

No more than it has since ARR, which is to say... not at all.

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Originally Posted by Kobalos

It hurts as an astro >.<

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To be fair, most things hurt as an AST now.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Also say what you want about ast and its cards, from my experience proper use of them makes mobs melt, so no complaints here.

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In HW and SB, they made mobs melt even faster because single-target Balances were 10% for 30 seconds instead of 6% on a melee for 15 seconds (and 3% if you get stuck with double ranged)—more potent and they lasted longer; and they didn’t have arbitrary melee/ranged requirements on them. Not to mention, they could be enhanced for 150% potency, extended for double duration, or Time Dilated for an extra 15 seconds. They were also a lot more smoother to manage.

Good point on the médica ii, was getting a little desperate I suppose. Never ran out of mp, just kept running out of tank hp. Did a lvl79 today and things went smoothly. Still wonder at what tank gear lvl undergear I should stop feeling guilty?

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Originally Posted by Jybril

I say this as a casual player but I feel like it had everything to do with balance. Since people kept hollering "If you don't fish balance, you were bad."
They had to strip every single thing that made AST what it was into a boring balance bot with no variety whatsoever.
Now people aren't fishing for balance it's fish for seals where I can barely be asked to do that.

When I played AST, I dealt with the cards I got and changed if I really needed to.
Spire has it's TP in need moments, but I usually fodder up for AoE. I loved AoEing cards, loved potency + cards and extending cards.
I liked old Crown/Lady cards. I can add a bit of DPS to the boss or I can use a mini ED on someone.
Don't forget about the old C/O and the most loved Time Dia. I had fun, which what should matter in this game.
I didn't try and get balance, but was happy when I did get it. I don't care for big numbers. I just wanna have fun.
The old card system is what definitely made AST what it was.

This was as close as Time Mage as we were going to get as well. The identity is gone now.
I'm just irritated that I mean...you stripped us down to nothing, give us no new healers to play with.
Use a sorry excuse to balance us, listened to the few guys screaming in the back and now even he ain't happy lol.
Healers have always been a dime a dozen but now look.

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Oh, I most certainly agree. Unfortunately, the dev team has a horrible habit of listening to the wrong players. Case in point. look at how many people complained about Monk not having a means of maintaining Greased Lightning and how the slow on Riddle of Fire felt awful. What did they do? Keep both problems and slap more situational GL skills you'll ignore 99% of any given fight. Astro falls into a similar boat where they listened to only a small portion of people whining about Balance; probably those looking at speed kill metas and thinking it applies to everything. This is why I cited the devs overreacted. Shadowbringer job balance and design has honestly been a hot mess between too much homogenization, oversimplification and downright overpowered jobs. It's actually quite remarkable how badly they flubbed up.

Boring healing downtime is what is killing healer population.

It doesn't help that AST, the healer with the most busy gameplay (Due to filling downtime with card management), was simplified and had its potencies nerfed at the beginning of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Thmas

Good point on the médica ii, was getting a little desperate I suppose. Never ran out of mp, just kept running out of tank hp. Did a lvl79 today and things went smoothly. Still wonder at what tank gear lvl undergear I should stop feeling guilty?

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It depends on which dungeon you’re in. If you’re in Mt. Gulg, for example, and the tank is in i390 Scaevan gear, any difficulties are because they were too lazy to get proper gear for the dungeon. There’s no exact formula for what gear should a tank have at which level, especially since older content has been nerfed to the point where gear that may not have been good when the content was relevant is now passable (e.g., i130 Poetics gear used to be a struggle in the Vault—but now, the Vault has been nerfed, so it’s not as huge of a struggle as it was during HW).

Lvl 74 Shb faerie dungeon mobs with lvl 70 weapons and 60s gear?

I have been main healer for years (now not anymore because SE decide to take the fun out of healing) but I refuse to do roulettes as a healer because I can never know in which situation I will find myself considering, like DDs not aoeing, tanks not using Cd or undergeared etc.
The fact is that tanking is much a harder role than many may think.
Inexperienced tanks thinks that run fast and hold aggro are their ONLY job . Being a GOOD tank require responsibility and ability to adapt to all circumstances and lead the team throughout the instance.
The tank had to adapt the size of pull to the situation not just run ahead mindlessly. I am seeing while levelling toward 80 all classes atrocious things and I am glad to be a dps xD
Many factors are to be kept in consideration by tank: his/her/they own item level, healer item level and ability to
Ogcd heal and dps, if DDs can aoe efficiently, also item level (if you do Expert with Sam+ Blm with savage gear it much different than if you have other dps with 430/440 gear) if there is someone new that had never been there before, type of mobs and their abilities.
The best way is to always do a small 3/4 monster at the begin to test the group performance.
I am seeing really often tanks and healer with ilvl 390 in the lvl 77 dungeon and that’s absurd on both sides. But feels bad and that’s unsettling as a healer if your heavily undergeared tank pull 12 monster without a cooldown and if they die it’s the healer fault. Sad but true.

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Originally Posted by Thmas

Lvl 74 Shb faerie dungeon mobs with lvl 70 weapons and 60s gear?

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People in Don Mheg should have at least i390/i400 gear, since the dungeon drops i400. No any level 60 pieces.

EDIT: Note that “level 70 weapons” can include Augmented Scaevan and Omega raid weapons—the latter are i400 and on-par with the weapons that drop from Don Mheg; the former are i405 and better than the Don Mehg weapons. Level 70 in a level 73 dungeon is not bad. Level 60 is, though.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

I bring this up as a healer and a tank. I will never say I am the best player and for a matter of fact i do not do savage content because i don't need the additional stress and I do not enjoy raiding anymore (i raided in EQ1, EQ2, WoW and other games for 10+ years).

My healer i refuse to play anymore after getting to 80 (scholar) i have also seen my wife who plays a white mage refuse to heal high level dungeons and extreme roulette (she would rather play her dps)

i have had people in my former FC say they hate healing now because of tanks that just rush through dungeon, die, blame the healer and then repeat. i have seen friends say they only bring out their healers if its a friends group.

and last but not least I as a tank refuse to wall to wall pull so i usually try to pick up 2 packs at a time and that's it. And I have had a few (mind very few) where the healer would actually thank me for not pulling big.

So while i know this is a very limited spectrum and anecdotal evidence, i figured i can't be the only one that has had this experience.

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I agree with this. Ever since I finished leveling my heals to 80 I have never used those jobs again. I won't go into duty finder and watch the tank run forward pulling everything (while usually missing 2 mobs). The tank that runs forward and pulls everything and uses no cd's whatsoever etc etc etc. It just simply isn't worth the aggravation. Pulling wall to wall may have happened before but the new influx of players brought in more players that have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Thmas

Lvl 74 Shb faerie dungeon mobs with lvl 70 weapons and 60s gear?

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Well, it's better than some of the duty finder tanks out there. I really wish it wasn't though...

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

As many have stated, it's because SE decided that healers shouldn't have anything to do is why people don't want to play healer. If anything wall to walls are one of the very few saving graces of being a healer, because then you can actually do something.

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This is the crap I don't get.

WHY ROLL A GD HEALER IF YOU WANT TO DPS. It can be said for any job. Why the hell would you main a healer if you didn't have the intentions to be a healer? Play a different job if you don't want to heal.