Monk Role needs Changes

i think something should be said about optimal monk play necessitating the use of a 3rd party plugin/modification

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

Yeah, and BLMs have Blizzard II, Fire II, Blizzard I, Scathe (which while it has very niche uses, still isn't used 99.9% of the cases and when it is used it is diminishing returns), Sleep, and Lucid Dreaming as dead abilities. To even make the claim that MNK is getting the short end of the stick is like claiming that you are the most unlucky person on earth because your Kobe steak is medium well instead of medium rare while your neighbor has to go through trash bins to find food for themselves and their families. Same if I would unironically sit here and claim that BLMs are in a bad spot (which they ain't) because Blizzard I is a dead abilitiy.

---

Difference being is that through the expansions, the blm actually evolved. Monk has been the same sense ARR.

And besides i listed blm in the classes that needed t9 be fixed in one of my replys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

i think something should be said about optimal monk play necessitating the use of a 3rd party plugin/modification

---

I totally agree, you sgould never have to outsource to a 3rd party just to use an ingame skill effectively.

This goes for any class and any skill.

Id like to take a moment to ask any monks in the room if they find the current state of the monk class fun.

I wanna know if its fun to you. What about is fun. Does any of the changes thats happened to the monk throughout the expansions appeal to you...or put you off. Has your rotations been altered by the changes greatly.

Positive and negatives.

Lets have a discussion.

And if you read through the origional post, what do you think the changes i proposed would do to the class to expand on what the monk origionally was.

Would it be fun for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

snip

---

Heya, I've been a main Monk since Arr, and an experienced raider with this job since Arr as well (although I play all melees, I mostly prog as monk or samurai).

I agree with you mostly, Monk has very good numbers today, but since stormblood the job is a complete mess riddled with useless skills or skills that are so niche, they actually reduce our DPS.

- Tornado kick : very useless skill although it was good at the end of stormblood (this was probably the best rotation Monk ever had, while it lasted). As for now, it is even less useful because of Six Sided Star and the ability to keep GL forever. Be happy to even use it properly once during a fight. Also I see many beginners using it all the time, which is very bad. Its design itself is counter intuitive as Monks are encouraged to keep their staks and have many things to keep them up. The skill needs a complete redesign.
- Six sided star : kind of the new tornado kick in terms of usage, very underwhelming, DPS loss if used at the wrong time and the worst part is that it is still tied to GCD.
- Riddle of earth : formerly used to maintain stacks, it had a few use cases in Storblood. Now it is just an OP True North. This skill is competely overpowered as we speak now.
- Riddle of wind : was good at the end of stormblood as it allowed the tornado kick rotation (although it was really garbage at the start, like the most useless thing ever). Now it's just gone.
- One ilm punch : although it was removed in Shadowbringers, this skill was trash from the beginning and could just be removed from the hotbar. It took the devs 6 years to remove it and replace it with a proper AOE move.
- Riddle of fire : it was awful in Stormblood, being slowed down was horrible however I see why the devs did this so we could double weave. But still the feeling was bad.
- Brotherhood : random chackra proc, this is awful too. Monks was a steady job that needed skill only to perform good. Rng was not needed and it needs to be removed.
- Touch of death : RIP ... It actually was a nice skill for monk, that would allow us some control over the flow of our rotation, same for fracture. But you know, lower the skill ceiling ...
- Anatman : almost useless since we can keep stacks forever. The only use case is if we have enough downtime to TK and anatman after, which almost never happens again. Worst part of it : it is tied to server tick and we need it for the optimal opener. This makes me want to quit monk until fixed. I sincerly hope this is an oversight because if I imagine that someone approved this I can't help but facepalming.


And also they removed two offgcds, making the main rotation even more boring.

All of this leaves barely any doubt : no one in the Dev team knows the job and how to play it. They've let monks down since the first expansion.
We've got so far : almost no change in HW and were buffed many times then SB broke the job then fixed it and now broken again in ShB although the dps is great (actually competely OP).

I strongly believe that Monk, like Mch needs a complete rework from ground up. No amount of fixes would be anough at this point without taking the time to really think about the job itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

Id love to get your detailed opinion about my idea, sense u seem to still appreciate the monk as a class. What do you agree/disagree with. How could the idea be improved? What would you think would be a good idea to push the monks problem into the light and try to really push for a change?

---

It's kinda hard to tell but, for ages he had this one, two, three rotation that happens twice with different positionals, and then he has forbidden chakra and that's it, he has no cool flashy skills in his rotation, if we compare it to dragoon who has stardiver, Geirskogul, mirage dive and nastrond monk feels lacking, maybe they could rework riddle of fire not to be just a damage buff but instead, you would be able to cast tornado kick once without loosing any greased lightning stacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noctisnine

It's kinda hard to tell but, for ages he had this one, two, three rotation that happens twice with different positionals, and then he has forbidden chakra and that's it, he has no cool flashy skills in his rotation, if we compare it to dragoon who has stardiver, Geirskogul, mirage dive and nastrond monk feels lacking, maybe they could rework riddle of fire not to be just a damage buff but instead, you would be able to cast tornado kick once without loosing any greased lightning stacks.

---

That would be a nice QoL thought. Maybe instead of RoF bring RoW back as a skill to do this, maybe have it give a skill speed buff for a certain duration and give the free cast of tornado kick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deithwen

Heya, I've been a main Monk since Arr, and an experienced raider with this job since Arr as well (although I play all melees, I mostly prog as monk or samurai).

I agree with you mostly, Monk has very good numbers today, but since stormblood the job is a complete mess riddled with useless skills or skills that are so niche, they actually reduce our DPS.

- Tornado kick : very useless skill although it was good at the end of stormblood (this was probably the best rotation Monk ever had, while it lasted). As for now, it is even less useful because of Six Sided Star and the ability to keep GL forever. Be happy to even use it properly once during a fight. Also I see many beginners using it all the time, which is very bad. Its design itself is counter intuitive as Monks are encouraged to keep their staks and have many things to keep them up. The skill needs a complete redesign.
- Six sided star : kind of the new tornado kick in terms of usage, very underwhelming, DPS loss if used at the wrong time and the worst part is that it is still tied to GCD.
- Riddle of earth : formerly used to maintain stacks, it had a few use cases in Storblood. Now it is just an OP True North. This skill is competely overpowered as we speak now.
- Riddle of wind : was good at the end of stormblood as it allowed the tornado kick rotation (although it was really garbage at the start, like the most useless thing ever). Now it's just gone.
- One ilm punch : although it was removed in Shadowbringers, this skill was trash from the beginning and could just be removed from the hotbar. It took the devs 6 years to remove it and replace it with a proper AOE move.
- Riddle of fire : it was awful in Stormblood, being slowed down was horrible however I see why the devs did this so we could double weave. But still the feeling was bad.
- Brotherhood : random chackra proc, this is awful too. Monks was a steady job that needed skill only to perform good. Rng was not needed and it needs to be removed.
- Touch of death : RIP ... It actually was a nice skill for monk, that would allow us some control over the flow of our rotation, same for fracture. But you know, lower the skill ceiling ...
- Anatman : almost useless since we can keep stacks forever. The only use case is if we have enough downtime to TK and anatman after, which almost never happens again. Worst part of it : it is tied to server tick and we need it for the optimal opener. This makes me want to quit monk until fixed. I sincerly hope this is an oversight because if I imagine that someone approved this I can't help but facepalming.


And also they removed two offgcds, making the main rotation even more boring.

All of this leaves barely any doubt : no one in the Dev team knows the job and how to play it. They've let monks down since the first expansion.
We've got so far : almost no change in HW and were buffed many times then SB broke the job then fixed it and now broken again in ShB although the dps is great (actually competely OP).

I strongly believe that Monk, like Mch needs a complete rework from ground up. No amount of fixes would be anough at this point without taking the time to really think about the job itself.

---

Im so happy to see someone else that shares my view of the monks standings.

What points of my proposal did u agree/disagree with? Would you think it could fix and start to evolve the monk?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

Im so happy to see someone else that shares my view of the monks standings.

What points of my proposal did u agree/disagree with? Would you think it could fix and start to evolve the monk?

---

I like your idea of Dragon form, although I am not sure about the implementation (I'm sorry, It's a bit hard to read ^^' ). Dragon form could even be a buff that you obtain once you open all 14 chakras and would act like a burst form just like DRG Life of the dragon, the difference being that we can choose when to use it (while LotD is pretty well aligned to raid buffs as it is). Now how we would open those chakras, I don't know, I'm not a game designer.
I agree that they could expand on light and dark monk schools, because it is weird that we are supposed to have opened all 7 light chakras and all 7 dark ones, and yet nothing in our skillset reflects that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deithwen

I like your idea of Dragon form, although I am not sure about the implementation (I'm sorry, It's a bit hard to read ^^' ). Dragon form could even be a buff that you obtain once you open all 14 chakras and would act like a burst form just like DRG Life of the dragon, the difference being that we can choose when to use it (while LotD is pretty well aligned to raid buffs as it is). Now how we would open those chakras, I don't know, I'm not a game designer.
I agree that they could expand on light and dark monk schools, because it is weird that we are supposed to have opened all 7 light chakras and all 7 dark ones, and yet nothing in our skillset reflects that.

---

Its an interesting idea, the reason i tied the drak chakra to the dragon moves was cause they would be dark side orientated.

And sense the regular skills crits can generate light chakra, it would only be fair that the dark would generate dark chakra, and limit it to that. No dark skill for light chakra and vice vs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

Its an interesting idea, the reason i tied the drak chakra to the dragon moves was cause they would be dark side orientated.

And sense the regular skills crits can generate light chakra, it would only be fair that the dark would generate dark chakra, and limit it to that. No dark skill for light chakra and vice vs.

---

Or, to keep things single, let's say when we reach GL4, we get access to chakra opener. A skill that would have a 60s CD to align with other raid buffs and this would allow us to reach dragon form. This form would grant us access to our strongest skills, and we must use Light skills and Dark skills one after the other. Six sided start could be a light skill, to be chained with a dark one. A bit like how gunbreaker works.This is just an idea, but all in all Monk needs a total reworK, in my humble opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deithwen

Or, to keep things single, let's say when we reach GL4, we get access to chakra opener. A skill that would have a 60s CD to align with other raid buffs and this would allow us to reach dragon form. This form would grant us access to our strongest skills, and we must use Light skills and Dark skills one after the other. Six sided start could be a light skill, to be chained with a dark one. A bit like how gunbreaker works.This is just an idea, but all in all Monk needs a total reworK, in my humble opinion.

---

That would be an iteresting idea, it would give the monk a damage spike moment similar to perfect balance moments.

Ive made a QoL adjustment to my Op. For those of you that dont wish to skim through my ramblings.

I'm going to say my piece then leave.
1. Samurai is getting attention because right now it is far below where it should be and Monk is far above where it should be right now so things will likely stay the same.

2. Tornado Kick openers, from what I remember, always sucked to learn because they felt horrible since you lost all of your stacks, regardless of some Riddle of Wind buff.

3. Tackle Mastery was a joke in the community for creating one that was the same but just slightly more powerful tackle, one that was useless, and one that was situational. I also love how you keep saying "Bring back riddle of wind" but trashing abilities for being too situational.

4. you sound like someone who just figured out that Tornado Kick isn't useful in your opener and has been doing that for a while until someone pointed it out to you and you're upset about it now. Not saying that's what you are, just that you do.

5. Please spell check if you're going to type something long like this.

6. SSS is lauded by the community for being the most situational ability in this expansion. Almost as much as tackle mastery was the most useless trait.

7. I don't care if you say not to bring up downtime, I'm going to bring it up anyway. Anantman gives you chakras. Just use it during downtime. Form Shift doesn't give you chakras.

8. If you have downtime where you will lose sacks, and cannot maintain them like through Anantman or Form Shift, ditch them with Tornado Kick and save TK for that. It's not dead, just situational. EDIT: A good example might be E1 (Normal or Savage). That animation you will lose stacks and you can't do anything during it.

9. You don't get as many chakras with Brotherhood because of the crit change. It's nothing to do with anything else, afaik.

10. Overusing punctuation doesn't help emphasize points, it just pads your post making it harder to get through when you make a long one like this. One that's shorter I can forgive overuse of punctuation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

I'm going to say my piece then leave.
1. Samurai is getting attention because right now it is far below where it should be and Monk is far above where it should be right now so things will likely stay the same.

2. Tornado Kick openers, from what I remember, always sucked to learn because they felt horrible since you lost all of your stacks, regardless of some Riddle of Wind buff.

3. Tackle Mastery was a joke in the community for creating one that was the same but just slightly more powerful tackle, one that was useless, and one that was situational. I also love how you keep saying "Bring back riddle of wind" but trashing abilities for being too situational.

4. you sound like someone who just figured out that Tornado Kick isn't useful in your opener and has been doing that for a while until someone pointed it out to you and you're upset about it now. Not saying that's what you are, just that you do.

5. Please spell check if you're going to type something long like this.

6. SSS is lauded by the community for being the most situational ability in this expansion. Almost as much as tackle mastery was the most useless trait.

7. I don't care if you say not to bring up downtime, I'm going to bring it up anyway. Anantman gives you chakras. Just use it during downtime. Form Shift doesn't give you chakras.

8. If you have downtime where you will lose sacks, and cannot maintain them like through Anantman or Form Shift, ditch them with Tornado Kick and save TK for that. It's not dead, just situational. EDIT: A good example might be E1 (Normal or Savage). That animation you will lose stacks and you can't do anything during it.

9. You don't get as many chakras with Brotherhood because of the crit change. It's nothing to do with anything else, afaik.

10. Overusing punctuation doesn't help emphasize points, it just pads your post making it harder to get through when you make a long one like this. One that's shorter I can forgive overuse of punctuation.

---

Just judging off of your comment, i can tell u didnt actually read my proposal. RoW allowed the turbo charge of gl along with the wind tackle. Allowing a strong opener that used tornado kick. If u left the opener without 3 stacks of gl u did it wrong.

Sense we lost the turbo off the opener, tornado kick jas become very situational. The pount in time u discribed is the only time i would use sss-tornado kick... but those time points are rare at best and doesnt defend the existance of the skill situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

snip

---

It seems you are mistaken on a few points.

2. The tornado kick openers were very strong at the time, and a good use of perfect balance and riddle of wind helped us recover our stacks very quicly. Those openers were a ton better than having to rely on server tick.

3. Tackle mastery was indeed a joke at the beginning, then riddle of wind became useful and far from situational.

7. Anatman doesn't give you chakras either. It gives greased lightning stacks and freeze your current form.

9. Brotherhood does not rely on crit chances to generate chakras, it's a flat 30% chance when a party member uses a weapon skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deithwen

It seems you are mistaken on a few points.

2. The tornado kick openers were very strong at the time, and a good use of perfect balance and riddle of wind helped us recover our stacks very quicly. Those openers were a ton better than having to rely on server tick.

3. Tackle mastery was indeed a joke at the beginning, then riddle of wind became useful and far from situational.

7. Anatman doesn't give you chakras either. It gives greased lightning stacks and freeze your current form.

9. Brotherhood does not rely on crit chances to generate chakras, it's a flat 30% chance when a party member uses a weapon skill.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

I'm going to say my piece then leave.
1. Samurai is getting attention because right now it is far below where it should be and Monk is far above where it should be right now so things will likely stay the same.

2. Tornado Kick openers, from what I remember, always sucked to learn because they felt horrible since you lost all of your stacks, regardless of some Riddle of Wind buff.

3. Tackle Mastery was a joke in the community for creating one that was the same but just slightly more powerful tackle, one that was useless, and one that was situational. I also love how you keep saying "Bring back riddle of wind" but trashing abilities for being too situational.

4. you sound like someone who just figured out that Tornado Kick isn't useful in your opener and has been doing that for a while until someone pointed it out to you and you're upset about it now. Not saying that's what you are, just that you do.

5. Please spell check if you're going to type something long like this.

6. SSS is lauded by the community for being the most situational ability in this expansion. Almost as much as tackle mastery was the most useless trait.

7. I don't care if you say not to bring up downtime, I'm going to bring it up anyway. Anantman gives you chakras. Just use it during downtime. Form Shift doesn't give you chakras.

8. If you have downtime where you will lose sacks, and cannot maintain them like through Anantman or Form Shift, ditch them with Tornado Kick and save TK for that. It's not dead, just situational. EDIT: A good example might be E1 (Normal or Savage). That animation you will lose stacks and you can't do anything during it.

9. You don't get as many chakras with Brotherhood because of the crit change. It's nothing to do with anything else, afaik.

10. Overusing punctuation doesn't help emphasize points, it just pads your post making it harder to get through when you make a long one like this. One that's shorter I can forgive overuse of punctuation.

---

You should probably atleast researching the skills before commenting.

Honestly i think they might need to go down the same route as summoner and dragoon with tornado kick.
Remove the need for chakras for tornado kick.Bring in a seperate button for greased lightning 4.Have it become available after you've hit a certain amount of forbidden chakra or enlightenment.Give gl4 a 30 second duration.During gl 4 let it allow you to tornado kick.Put tornado kick on lets say a 15 second cd.Bring back howling fist.Have it share a cd with tornado kick and can only be used under same conditions.Give gl4 a 60 -90 sec cd too so it cant be constantly kept up.
Change anatman to a 120 sec to 180 second cd that instantly gives you 3 stacks of gl.
Remove the no positional bonus for earths reply,remove the gl refresh from from shift.
Change riddle of fire to a 10% crit buff instead of damage bonus.
Bring pb cd back down to 60 seconds.
Then adjust the potencies around that.Bring down the bootshines bonus from dragonkick if needed.
Just make six sided star a moderate ogcd that does damage and nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Honestly i think they might need to go down the same route as summoner and dragoon with tornado kick.
Remove the need for chakras for tornado kick.Bring in a seperate button for greased lightning 4.Have it become available after you've hit a certain amount of forbidden chakra or enlightenment.Give gl4 a 30 second duration.During gl 4 let it allow you to tornado kick.Put tornado kick on lets say a 15 second cd.Bring back howling fist.Have it share a cd with tornado kick and can only be used under same conditions.Give gl4 a 60 -90 sec cd too so it cant be constantly kept up.
Change anatman to a 120 sec to 180 second cd that instantly gives you 3 stacks of gl.
Remove the no positional bonus for earths reply,remove the gl refresh from from shift.
Change riddle of fire to a 10% crit buff instead of damage bonus.
Bring pb cd back down to 60 seconds.
Then adjust the potencies around that.Bring down the bootshines bonus from dragonkick if needed.
Just make six sided star a moderate ogcd that does damage and nothing else.

---

Well...if we go along with your idea here....firat as a correction tornado kick uses greased lightning, max stacked, as cost.

Next the idea of tagging gl4 in as a activatable buff under certain situations could work. If we go with the forbidden chakra skill... you could set it so that if u crit with forbidden chakra u could activate it. It would last.....say 30seconds and go on cd for 60.

An interesting idea, i think. Only thing i dont like about it is being another skill to weave in between glcd skills, but thats not such a bad thing really.

Another option being u could automaticly get it....but then that would mean u could get it every time fc crit unless u introduced a debuff that stops u from getting it until after 60sec. As well as, it not being optional...possibly going off at some point when u dont want it to, and be wasted.

Tieing tornado kick to this buff would allow u to theoretically use tornado kick twice during the gl4 buff, makeing the skill rather effective.

I would love to have howling fist back, but as it stands enlightenment is just howling fist, reskined.

I disagree with the anatman thought though. I dislike the idea of just getting all 3 stacks of gl for free... makes me think of the skill sch i think had. Aethercurrents i think....?

Im all for removing the no positionals buff for riddle of earth, it catters to lazyness and with true north, u dont have to do positionals like 75% of the time, making the class boring.

I do, however, disagree with the form shift loosing the gl refresher. To me it just feels like a natural step up, lore wise. Showing it as a form of progression to mastery. However i do feel like it should be an upgrade trait in the 70's level tree.

Totall disagreement with riddle of fire. If anything bring the potency down to 20%. Tops.

Agee to the pb walkback to 60s

And probably reduce leaded fist buff to 270 potency.

I would do sss as a ogcd instead of bring howling fist back for just damage too 30sec cooldown.

Either way none of suggested you'll likely see this expansion.They will probably just nerf monks potency and % on buff and leave it feeling like garbage to play.Hopefully they'll rework the job properly next expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Hopefully they'll rework the job properly next expansion.

---

I really hope, but I wouldn't count on it ... ^^'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Either way none of suggested you'll likely see this expansion.They will probably just nerf monks potency and % on buff and leave it feeling like garbage to play.Hopefully they'll rework the job properly next expansion.

---

Honestly, even if they rework it... just seeing the results of their "attempts" at expanding it... id probably just stop playing class cause they would more likely than not, destroy the monk as a whole and leave us with less than the og monk. Biggest fear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

Difference being is that through the expansions, the blm actually evolved. Monk has been the same sense ARR.

And besides i listed blm in the classes that needed t9 be fixed in one of my replys.

---

I don’t think BLM is in dire need of any fixes, just that we from an objective perspective is in more of a need of one and in a worse spot than MNKs, which you claim to have gotten the short end of the stick. I picked BLM as it is a class that is universally pleased this expansion and is pretty up there in terms of DPS to highlight just How good of a spot MNKs actually are in now.

Here is the thing though, there are jobs that literally could not meet the DPS requirement for Savage during those early weeks even if piloted relatively well, and you sit here saying that MNKs, the literally top DPS of the game right now, got the short end of the stick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

I don’t think BLM is in dire need of any fixes, just that we from an objective perspective is in more of a need of one and in a worse spot than MNKs, which you claim to have gotten the short end of the stick. I picked BLM as it is a class that is universally pleased this expansion and is pretty up there in terms of DPS to highlight just How good of a spot MNKs actually are in now.

Here is the thing though, there are jobs that literally could not meet the DPS requirement for Savage during those early weeks even if piloted relatively well, and you sit here saying that MNKs, the literally top DPS of the game right now, got the short end of the stick.

---

If you actually paid attention, i litterally said i know the have high dps but that doesnt mean their skills are good. They have the same core rotation sense arr everything after that, 3 expansions have been poorly executed. At least blm rotation was expanded and evolved and yall got a good number of usable attack skills. Monks got like another commenter said "maybe 1 good skill each expansion".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

If you actually paid attention, i litterally said i know the have high dps but that doesnt mean their skills are good. They have the same core rotation sense arr everything after that, 3 expansions have been poorly executed. At least blm rotation was expanded and evolved and yall got a good number of usable attack skills. Monks got like another commenter said "maybe 1 good skill each expansion".

---

And heres the thing, im all for fixing anything wrong with blm. The idea is to get the top classes corrected i.e. blm, monk, whm... and then bring the others up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

And heres the thing, im all for fixing anything wrong with blm. The idea is to get the top classes corrected i.e. blm, monk, whm... and then bring the others up.

---

Once you know where the top is, that makes it easier to line up everything else

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

And heres the thing, im all for fixing anything wrong with blm. The idea is to get the top classes corrected i.e. blm, monk, whm... and then bring the others up.

---

The thing is considering how fast and how easily people have cleared this expansions savage is an indicator that some dps classes are too strong.not just monk.So they need to be toned down before buffing the other jobs or current content will become too easy.
Also you need to realise that your other post about suggesting all the new skills etc and working on lore will never happen.
Any suggestions to fix monk need to be based off its current skills because its the easiest way for the devs to work from and likely the path that they will choose.
This will also likely involve copying parts of other jobs which they are already done as it takes less resources to fix jobs this way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

The thing is considering how fast and how easily people have cleared this expansions savage is an indicator that some dps classes are too strong.not just monk.So they need to be toned down before buffing the other jobs or current content will become too easy.
Also you need to realise that your other post about suggesting all the new skills etc and working on lore will never happen.
Any suggestions to fix monk need to be based off its current skills because its the easiest way for the devs to work from and likely the path that they will choose.
This will also likely involve copying parts of other jobs which they are already done as it takes less resources to fix jobs this way.

---

First off, what i discribed does use plenty of whats alread or had been available before.

Plus, any "fixes" thet would do will not work, all they do is slap a band aid on It and say there u go, be happy. Does that sound like something appealing to you?

Next, telling me that its unreasonable is completly contrary to this post. I dont care how difficult it is, its a post of what i believe will put the monk back on the right path. Not, omg how can i buff it to obsurd lvls for no reason. Its not a post about other classes. Its a discussion opener for the monk. A topic to centralize a discussion on ways to change the monk to better fit its lore and role. Anything against this is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with this post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

First off, what i discribed does use plenty of whats alread or had been available before.

Plus, any "fixes" thet would do will not work, all they do is slap a band aid on It and say there u go, be happy. Does that sound like something appealing to you?

Next, telling me that its unreasonable is completly contrary to this post. I dont care how difficult it is, its a post of what i believe will put the monk back on the right path. Not, omg how can i buff it to obsurd lvls for no reason. Its not a post about other classes. Its a discussion opener for the monk. A topic to centralize a discussion on ways to change the monk to better fit its lore and role. Anything against this is irrelevant, and has nothing to do with this post.

---

Forums are for discussion.If you cant take criticism you shoulnt post here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

If you actually paid attention, i litterally said i know the have high dps but that doesnt mean their skills are good. They have the same core rotation sense arr everything after that, 3 expansions have been poorly executed. At least blm rotation was expanded and evolved and yall got a good number of usable attack skills. Monks got like another commenter said "maybe 1 good skill each expansion".

---

Once again, I said we do NOT need any fixes, just that we need them more than MNKs, which DO NOT NEED ANY CHANGES EITHER in my opinion. At least not over classes such as Dancer that are in an extremely extremely poor spot right now. My problem is and remain that you think you as MNK get the short end of the stick when you are currently the best in the game. If your skills were bad you wouldn't be top DPS. It might just be that you do not ENJOY MNK right now, and I can't take that away from you, but from an objective standpoint, MNKs are in a fantastic place right now. The best place they might actually have ever been. But there is a difference between YOU enjoying MNK and MNK having received the short end of the stick and severely needs fixing over jobs that barely gets into end game content.

Here's what they do to MNK.

1) Change the CD of Riddle of Fire/Brotherhood to 120 seconds. Extend the duration of Brotherhood to 20 seconds and have it apply to all damage.
2) Remove the GL requirement of Tornado Kick and instead have it be something that can only be used every 3rd refreshing of GL (This also applies to refreshing caused by Riddle of Earth and Anatman)
3) Change Anatman to only grant GL stacks every 3 seconds, regardless of server ticks and lower the CD to 30 seconds.
4) Change SSS into an oGCD that can only be used after a successful Tornado Kick and grant 10 seconds of True North upon its execution with no slow effect.
5) Either remove the True North effect from Riddle of Earth entirely, or reduce it down to 10 seconds at the most.
6) Remove the Fist Stances and untie GL4 from them. They offer nothing to the class and are fluff that can be removed entirely. They can also make the fist stances into just weaker versions of Riddles that change to riddles later on, with Fist of Wind becoming a trait to increase movement speed and Riddle of Wind being the trait to unlock the 2nd Should Tackle.
7) Have Brotherhood naturally generate 1 Chakra every 3 seconds for its duration while also still maintaining the extra chance to earn them from allies.
8) Change Deep Meditation into a 100% guaranteed chakra on crit.

Just some of my own personal adjustments to MNK. Take from them what you will, I feel that they would be pretty balanced, all things considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

Once again, I said we do NOT need any fixes, just that we need them more than MNKs, which DO NOT NEED ANY CHANGES EITHER in my opinion. At least not over classes such as Dancer that are in an extremely extremely poor spot right now. My problem is and remain that you think you as MNK get the short end of the stick when you are currently the best in the game. If your skills were bad you wouldn't be top DPS. It might just be that you do not ENJOY MNK right now, and I can't take that away from you, but from an objective standpoint, MNKs are in a fantastic place right now. The best place they might actually have ever been. But there is a difference between YOU enjoying MNK and MNK having received the short end of the stick and severely needs fixing over jobs that barely gets into end game content.

---

Dancer needs potency fixes, Monk needs a complete rework because the job is filled with contradictory design. Just looking at DPS is narrow minded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Forums are for discussion.If you cant take criticism you shoulnt post here.

---

Criticism is constructive and can be debated, alot here is just toxic nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

Once again, I said we do NOT need any fixes, just that we need them more than MNKs, which DO NOT NEED ANY CHANGES EITHER in my opinion. At least not over classes such as Dancer that are in an extremely extremely poor spot right now. My problem is and remain that you think you as MNK get the short end of the stick when you are currently the best in the game. If your skills were bad you wouldn't be top DPS. It might just be that you do not ENJOY MNK right now, and I can't take that away from you, but from an objective standpoint, MNKs are in a fantastic place right now. The best place they might actually have ever been. But there is a difference between YOU enjoying MNK and MNK having received the short end of the stick and severely needs fixing over jobs that barely gets into end game content.

---

IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE POST, this is the EXACT topic. It is not enjoyable. Its boring to just stand still 75% of the time ignoring my mechanics, its boring to know that in 3 expansions ive basically got 3 or so skills that are actually usable and dont disrupt the origional design. Its humorously bad that 1 QoL buff completely x'ed my anatman and six sided star. It sucks that because of the removal of skills this expansion, i lost my opener, and made tornado kick obsolete and incredably situational. If u believe blm is in a worse situation, then u are completely closed to any kind of debate and are wasting the rest of the people's time here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

Once again, I said we do NOT need any fixes, just that we need them more than MNKs, which DO NOT NEED ANY CHANGES EITHER in my opinion. At least not over classes such as Dancer that are in an extremely extremely poor spot right now. My problem is and remain that you think you as MNK get the short end of the stick when you are currently the best in the game. If your skills were bad you wouldn't be top DPS. It might just be that you do not ENJOY MNK right now, and I can't take that away from you, but from an objective standpoint, MNKs are in a fantastic place right now. The best place they might actually have ever been. But there is a difference between YOU enjoying MNK and MNK having received the short end of the stick and severely needs fixing over jobs that barely gets into end game content.

---

Monk does need fixes though.The job is currently very broken.It does way too much dps.So while it may not need an immediate change to making it actually fun to play again it does need a heavy nerf.
Saying its in a good place is wrong.A good place would mean its strong but balanced.This is 100% not the case.The job is way too strong in the hands of competant players.It kept geting buffed to draw bad players to the job which has resulted in the job being way overtuned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Saying that one job should be at the bottom of the totem pole in terms of having its problems addressed is unnecessarily spiteful and but depending on how wide you set the window for "attention" Monk has basically seen the least, and by your other criteria Monk would be one of the jobs most in need of quality of life.

Monk may have seen a bit of attention in 5.05, but player complaints on how its skills worked and played were largely ignored since Heavensward in favor of complaints people had for Summoner/Ninja/other jobs. This was when Monk was the absolute worst job in the game mind you, with comparable damage to Ninja and less than Dragoon at the beginning of the expansion that only became marginally better than Dragoon by the end, on top of being the only job without any aggro control, the strictest job mechanic to work around for Mechanics, the worst TP burn (a problem Ninja had fixed immediately mind), and no means of buffing the party at all. Stormblood's complaints were similarly, acknowledged on streams at the beginning of the expansion, and then ignored. When they actually did change Monk at all, the devs accidentally created a new rotation that was divisive among the community and absolutely not what they intended to. And they went about fixing it in Shadowbringers by undoing the best quality of life the job had ever seen (PB at 60 seconds) instead of changing Tornado Kick to be something other than overly situational. If you set the window for "attention" wide enough, it becomes obvious that the condition Monk is in now, both in how its overperforming and the state of its kit is a direct result of developer inattention more than anything.

Situational skills? You're talking to the job that is the undisputed champ of them and has been since Heavensward. Forbidden Chakra was a situational disengage skill and because the design of it wasn't changed when it became a Gauge system, it's currently the only gauge that has absolutely no overhead between being useable and capping your resource. Our capstone skill in Heavensward Tornado Kick, was only ever useful in a rotation because of developer oversight. Riddle of Earth was so situational that making Form Shift work the way it always should have required it to gain an entirely new effect (and it's activation requirement is still stupid and gets blocked by shields). Anatman's janky secondary purpose is now it's only purpose, and Six Sided Star, another ultimate ability, while not quite as useless as Tornado Kick, is still something who's use we want to minimize during a fight.

And as for skills Monk has lost the job is a veritable graveyard of skills that we once used rotationally that we don't have anymore. Touch of Death, Howling Fist, Fracture, Internal Release, and Steel Peak are all gone and Monk hasn't seen anything to replace them because we've gotten nothing but situational nonsense.

What's "unique" about Monk's problems and flaws is that many of them have existed for multiple expansions, and they've never been addressed because the "attention" you say Monk has been lavished with is something that literally never happens with the job. Instead they've been allowed to fester and created a paradoxical interplay where the Jobs' currently managing to perform very highly despite having the single worst put together kit in the game, and funnily enough, because of its kit being so poorly put together, if the devs nerf it in the wrong manner then it'll be possible to pull off some other Jank to partially make up the damage elsewhere.

---

A player From my other post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE POST, this is the EXACT topic. It is not enjoyable. Its boring to just stand still 75% of the time ignoring my mechanics, its boring to know that in 3 expansions ive basically got 3 or so skills that are actually usable and dont disrupt the origional design. Its humorously bad that 1 QoL buff completely x'ed my anatman and six sided star. It sucks that because of the removal of skills this expansion, i lost my opener, and made tornado kick obsolete and incredably situational. If u believe blm is in a worse situation, then u are completely closed to any kind of debate and are wasting the rest of the people's time here.

---

And if you read anything I have said I have said that while MNK is from your subjective opinion boring, other jobs are from an objective standpoint so bad that many people do not even want to see them in endgame as during the early weeks they could not even reach the DPS checks, and despite that you still think MNK has gotten the short end of the stick despite being an actually working job, and being best in class, and yes, even better than BLM. Just take a look at FFLogs and you will quickly see that MNKs are in a VERY favored position right now, despite what your subjective opinion on how "fun" the job is to play is.

So what do you thing SE should focus their limited time and resources for balancing on, changing MNK to your subjective opinion of what fun is, or fix jobs that are objectively on the bottom of the barrel so that they can actually reach the DPS checks at the same period of time as other jobs? I know what I think they should spend their time on.

But yes, to add, when it comes to expansion time, I feel like they could indeed try to focus on giving MNKs some new interesting things like all other jobs, I will NOT be opposed to that, but right here, right now, in the middle of an expansion cycle, there are fare direr things to look after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Monk does need fixes though.The job is currently very broken.It does way too much dps.So while it may not need an immediate change to making it actually fun to play again it does need a heavy nerf.
Saying its in a good place is wrong.A good place would mean its strong but balanced.This is 100% not the case.The job is way too strong in the hands of competant players.It kept geting buffed to draw bad players to the job which has resulted in the job being way overtuned.

---

I actually mentioned this earlier in this thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

There are far graver things that needs to be fixed than MNK right now in terms of class rebalancing, unless said rebalance is a direct nerf of MNKs.

---

so I totally agree with this statement. However, some jobs are so bad they can not reach the DPS checks of endgame content upon release, that is where I personally feel attention foremost needs to be directed as those jobs are clearly very much undertuned for where they need to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunavi

And if you read anything I have said I have said that while MNK is from your subjective opinion boring, other jobs are from an objective standpoint so bad that many people do not even want to see them in endgame as during the early weeks they could not even reach the DPS checks, and despite that you still think MNK has gotten the short end of the stick despite being an actually working job, and being best in class, and yes, even better than BLM. Just take a look at FFLogs and you will quickly see that MNKs are in a VERY favored position right now, despite what your subjective opinion on how "fun" the job is to play is.

So what do you thing SE should focus their limited time and resources for balancing on, changing MNK to your subjective opinion of what fun is, or fix jobs that are objectively on the bottom of the barrel so that they can actually reach the DPS checks at the same period of time as other jobs? I know what I think they should spend their time on.

But yes, to add, when it comes to expansion time, I feel like they could indeed try to focus on giving MNKs some new interesting things like all other jobs, I will NOT be opposed to that, but right here, right now, in the middle of an expansion cycle, there are fare direr things to look after.

---

If what i say is an opinionated statement, than its shared by the entire monk community. Just because you disagree and submite your opinion counter to my own, does not mean you are right. After all it's just an opinion, rather short sighted, but still just. What you state as a "favorable position" is the same position the had and still hold aense the end of a realm reborn. Nothing spectacular has changes sense then until the hic up in stormsblood that gave us the opener that we enjoyed, but guess what....monks arnt allowed to be happy....so they took it away. So now we are back to the start, arr with a few extra janky skills taged on the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sonya_Nillefrant

If what i say is an opinionated statement, than its shared by the entire monk community. Just because you disagree and submite your opinion counter to my own, does not mean you are right. After all it's just an opinion, rather short sighted, but still just. What you state as a "favorable position" is the same position the had and still hold aense the end of a realm reborn. Nothing spectacular has changes sense then until the hic up in stormsblood that gave us the opener that we enjoyed, but guess what....monks arnt allowed to be happy....so they took it away. So now we are back to the start, arr with a few extra janky skills taged on the end.

---

So you are telling me that SE should focus their resources on fixing the top DPS in the game where there are DPS jobs that could not reach their part of the DPS check at launch of Savage? In a world of infinite manpower and resources being poured into this game, I would 100% agree that this is something they could and should pursue mid expansion, however, there are direr things to look after in my opinion due to what I mentioned above in this world, where resources and manpower is indeed limited.