Maybe RDM need....

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You do you. Don't drop lines like "If you wanna do damage go play BLM" and not expect responses like mine.

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I wasn't expecting anything lol

What if Red Mage had some debuff spells? It has melee, it offensive magic, healing magic, and (a) buff ability.

Maybe like, Verdia reduces damage dealt by the enemy or Verbio reduces their defense? They could be DoTs like the original or maybe just do direct damage with lower potency than the standard rotation spells?

Could be a nice way to break things up between the standard proc rotation. Maybe they could even proc their respective magics at a lower rate, or generate mana?

I like the theme of Red Mage being able to do ‘a bit of everything’, so maybe adding to what they ‘can do’ could make it feel more valuable? I’d be sad to see them remove things like Vercure and Verraise, because I don’t think their presence really justify its DPS being so low in the first place

It doesn't have to do the same damage as a black mage. It just needs to do respectable levels of damage. It doesn't need healing utilities because we already have two healers that are beyond good at their jobs. If three healers were ever needed, three would be taken because Red Mage can likewise never heal as well as a real healer.

You're right, btw, people are already dismissing RDM in parties. It's damage is bottom of the barrel, and devs have admitted it's because of verraise. Verraise which is better than raise in usefulness, so that already runs contrary to Red Mage's identity of never outclassing either White or Black Mage. But nobody talks about that. Red Mage already has more white than black magic (aero, stone, holy, cure and raise vs fire, thunder, flare). But that's not gonna get brought up either I bet.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Red mage is never going to do damage like Black mage. Never. And yes, if you want to do more damage as a caster, go play black mage becuase that's what you want to do right? Red mage is a red mage, a mixture of black and white, yes it is a DPS job but in it's core, it's identity; it's a hybrid. Look up what red mage is.

From what I'm reading from these forms lately, red mage is not even considered being played on high content and only practice parties so what am I missing?

People are asking to get rid of red mages utilities and don't know what the job identity is. If red mage does the same level of damage a Black mage does, people would be asking for a Balance and a Nerf to red mage. Whether you like it or not there will never be no perfect balance and Red mage is never going to be a massive damage dealer like black mage

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I agree that RDM should not be better than BLM at DPS but I do believe that they should supplement the bigger jobs with enhancements like a dancer does. Perhaps spells like temper(ATK+)/focus (ACC+) and even spells that mix Minor healing and DPS to keep to their roots of healing and damage but without being worthless utility since healers usually have healing covered.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

I agree that RDM should not be better than BLM at DPS but I do believe that they should supplement the bigger jobs with enhancements like a dancer does. Perhaps spells like temper(ATK+)/focus (ACC+) and even spells that mix Minor healing and DPS to keep to their roots of healing and damage but without being worthless utility since healers usually have healing covered.

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That could work, but they took out Focus (ACC+) because people was complaining about accuracy ( healers especially) so they removed it to make everything easier....like everything else in this game..

If they added (ATK+) people would call for Nerf and use red mages for attack bonus and people would be crying about Dancer buffs.

You can't win in this game

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Red mage is never going to do damage like Black mage. Never. And yes, if you want to do more damage as a caster, go play black mage becuase that's what you want to do right? Red mage is a red mage, a mixture of black and white, yes it is a DPS job but in it's core, it's identity; it's a hybrid. Look up what red mage is.

From what I'm reading from these forms lately, red mage is not even considered being played on high content and only practice parties so what am I missing?

People are asking to get rid of red mages utilities and don't know what the job identity is. If red mage does the same level of damage a Black mage does, people would be asking for a Balance and a Nerf to red mage. Whether you like it or not there will never be no perfect balance and Red mage is never going to be a massive damage dealer like black mage

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Nice strawman. Once again nobody is saying RDM damage needs to be on par with BLM. What we're saying is that there is too much of an imbalance and saying "HURRR RED MAGE IDENTITY" is not going to cut it as a justification for keeping it bad.

I know the job's identity. I'm a life-long RDM fan. I preordered stormblood despite not planning on playing it right away just for the RDM minion. And I want to continue playing RDM as my main in high end content. That shouldn't mean I have to be a detriment to my party or, god forbid, be excluded from parties entirely. Nor does it mean I should have to deal with people telling me to "just play black mage bro".

At the end of the day this is an MMO. RDM is a DPS and that means it needs to be balanced to compete effectively with other DPS especially casters. That is the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Nice strawman. Once again nobody is saying RDM damage needs to be on par with BLM. What we're saying is that there is too much of an imbalance and saying "HURRR RED MAGE IDENTITY" is not going to cut it as a justification for keeping it bad.

I know the job's identity. I'm a life-long RDM fan. I preordered stormblood despite not planning on playing it right away just for the RDM minion. And I want to continue playing RDM as my main in high end content. That shouldn't mean I have to be a detriment to my party or, god forbid, be excluded from parties entirely. Nor does it mean I should have to deal with people telling me to "just play black mage bro".

At the end of the day this is an MMO. RDM is a DPS and that means it needs to be balanced to compete effectively with other DPS especially casters. That is the bottom line.

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FFXI was also an MMO and red mage is still aceppted by parties and I'm not saying to not play red mage, I never did say that so you can stop putting words in my mouth.
But people are saying that they want to get rid of red mages utility, in favor of more damage. But red mage is, or never was about just doing pure DPS. You want to rack up those numbers, go be a black mage then

FFXIV will never reach pure balance and there is going to be favorite of other jobs. Just play the job you like. If people are not accepting you because you play red mage, maybe you need to find other groups.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Nice strawman. Once again nobody is saying RDM damage needs to be on par with BLM. What we're saying is that there is too much of an imbalance and saying "HURRR RED MAGE IDENTITY" is not going to cut it as a justification for keeping it bad.

I know the job's identity. I'm a life-long RDM fan.

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Red mage seems find to me, it doesn't seem bad to me, if you enjoy the job, keep playing it or go black mage

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]At the end of the day this is an MMO. RDM is a DPS and that means it needs to be balanced to compete effectively with other DPS especially casters. That is the bottom line.

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FFXI is an MMO as well and all jobs can do all content

Seems kind of disingenuous to insinuate that XIV and XI are the same kind of MMO. If Red Mage seems fine to you, cool. But it doesn't to me, and as a paying customer, I'm going to voice my opinion.

As is, Red Mage needs nerfed actually, its raise is stronger than White Mage's and that breaks the fantasy. Nerf verraise. It also needs more black magic spells to balance against it's white magic: as stated earlier, we're 5 white mage spells (aero, stone, holy, cure, raise) to 3 black mage spells (thunder, fire, flare).

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

FFXI was also an MMO and red mage is still aceppted by parties and I'm not saying to not play red mage, I never did say that so you can stop putting words in my mouth.
But people are saying that they want to get rid of red mages utility, in favor of more damage. But red mage is, or never was about just doing pure DPS. You want to rack up those numbers, go be a black mage then

FFXIV will never reach pure balance and there is going to be favorite of other jobs. Just play the job you like. If people are not accepting you because you play red mage, maybe you need to find other groups.

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Keep in mind when we talk about DPS balance we tall about RDPS which is more than just the amount of damage you put up on your own. RDM does not need to put up the same amount of personal DPS for it to contribute a comparable amount of rDPS, nor should it. What lots of people don't seem to understand is that rDPS is supposed to be damn near perfectly balanced because it represents the total amount of overall damage contribution by the class minus padding. If selfish jobs are blowing support jobs away so badly that their personal DPS alone makes their rDPS vastly vastly superior (keep in mind rDPS specifically excludes padding so in terms of actual performance the gap is even higher than rDPS suggests) then the gap is way way too high and balance is completely screwed. BLM's personal DPS alone should not put it 1500+ DPS above RDM in rDPS. Period.

What does Red Mage need? It needs more magical DPS spells, not a stance that nerfs Cure / Raise. I don't count Scorch as one, bc its just a cherry on top of the 1-2-3 combo 4-5. I don't count Reprise or Engagement as anything either, their so situational, they're just there...

I believe what RDM needs is to remove Acceleration, add two new magical DPS spells that do what Acceleration does that grants a DPS bump [415 Potency Spells that automatically trigger Fire / Stone Ready][In my post Verblizzard / Verwater: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rd-already%21] I mention this.

They need to Remove Reprise and add TWO new magical dps spells in its place that do the SAME THING, instant cast, on the go like Reprise, but use White or Black mana. That to me would be a more effective Mana dump, and would allow us to manipulate our Ver(Finisher).

• -Verbio: -5 Black Magic 280 Potency, Deals Dark Damage that inflicts Attack Down when stacked 4 times
• Duration 60s
• Once 4 Verbio is stacked, target receives a reduced Attack
• Duration: 14s

• -Verdia: -5 White Magic 280 Potency, Deals White Damage that inflicts Defense Down when stacked 4 times
• Duration 60s
• Once 4 Verdia's are stacked, target receives a reduced Defense
• Duration: 14s

Verraise? Eh, Leave it as is. I don't believe that's the main reason behind our DPS loss, I believe SE just half-arsed RDM in Shadowbringers by not giving it new DPS tools outside of Scorch.

Red Mage had (HAS) a lot of potential for growth in its overall kit, Water / Ice / Black / White, new Ancient AoE's, Quake / Freeze / Flood / Burst. I don't care much for more WS's, as we're a magical ranged DPS. I want to see more flare in our kit.

These are my two cents though. I am very passionate about RDM as it's the one job that brought me back to play FFXIV in the first place. SE give RDM some TLC and branch it out to remove this rezzmage (Remember Refresh from FFXI anyone?) stigma and make it something more!

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

What does Red Mage need? It needs more magical DPS spells, not a stance that nerfs Cure / Raise. I don't count Scorch as one, bc its just a cherry on top of the 1-2-3 combo 4-5. I don't count Reprise or Engagement as anything either, their so situational, they're just there...

I believe what RDM needs is to remove Acceleration, add two new magical DPS spells that do what Acceleration does that grants a DPS bump [415 Potency Spells that automatically trigger Fire / Stone Ready][In my post Verblizzard / Verwater: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rd-already%21] I mention this.

They need to Remove Reprise and add TWO new magical dps spells that do the SAME THING, instant cast, on the go, but with a little extra :p

• -Verbio: -5 Black Magic 280 Potency, Deals Dark Damage that inflicts Attack Down when stacked 4 times
• Duration 60s
• Once 4 Verbio's are stacked, target receives a reduced Attack
• Duration: 14s
  
  

• -Verdia: -5 White Magic 280 Potency, Deals White Damage that inflicts Defense Down when stacked 4 times
• Duration 60s
• Once 4 Verdia's are stacked, target receives a reduced Defense
• Duration: 14s

Verraise? Eh, Leave it as is. I don't believe that's the reason behind our DPS loss, I believe SE just half-arsed RDM in Shadowbringers.

Red Mage had (HAS) a lot of potential for growth in its overall kit, Water / Ice / Black / White, new Ancient AoE's, Quake / Freeze / Flood / Burst. I don't care much for more WS's, as we're a magical ranged DPS. I want to see more flare in our kit.

These are my two cents though. I am very passionate about RDM as it's the one job that brought me back to play FFXIV in the first place. SE give RDM some TLC and branch it out to remove this rezzmage (Remember Refresh from FFXI anyone?) stigma and make it something more!

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Obviously it'll never happen, but I think it would be pretty cool to keep RDM's damage where it is but give it some skills that would allow it to take the place of a healer or maybe even a tank as well in some circumstances. For example, cutting out the 2nd healer and rolling with 4 DPS + RDM + WHM or SCH or AST with the RDM having something like aspected helios that allows them to heal+shield/regen party members and maybe buffing vercure too. The other healer of course would do the majority of the actual healing but with the RDM filling in well enough while contributing its normal DPS.

Another idea would be a stance that reduces damage and increases defense and enmity generation + maybe an invuln so they could fill in the role of OT in some circumstances as well and go with 4 DPS + 2 healers + RDM + PLD or GNB or WAR or DRK. would probably need a taunt too. That would be pretty neat and I'd happy to be the worst DPS by a mile if they made it viable to do something like that.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You get to use it twice in E3S and thrice in E4S. If we want to talk Ultimates, you get to use it even more frequently during transitions. But you’re wanting to remove it based on the single, full-uptime fight in this entire tier? Why are you not considering the other three in your suggestion? There’s no reason to lock it out in general, but you’re trying to apply an exception as support for your proposition, rather than looking at the norm (which would be the other fights where you get usages from the skill).

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It's not a proper way to use healing spell. I don't get why you guy're so upset.
5.1 is coming and RDM's buff/change is expected so you can ask for alt way or suggest a better changes but instead of asking for a proper/alt way you're so mad at me for trying to take the way to exploit that rely on transition from you?.The battle stance I suggest could be a lv.72+ skill so you can kept using the expoilt in ultimate but why do you have to be so quick to judge me? You could even suggest that when enter the stance in the beginning it give RDM's insta cast + free blk+wht mana but all I hear is how people upset with me, what the?

If instead of stance you get 10 sec personal dps boost would you rather using healing in that window instead of the attack skill? unless you want to reduce your dps? I've said this before that the stance doesn't have to be perma but if you want to deal better damage all time+have emboden improvement and able to use verrise/heal all the time it could bring us to another problem down below.

[I hope I don't have to repeat it again but] if after the changes RDM is being mobile+doing good damage + bring good dps utility + able to use verrise/heal at whim then is there a reason to bring Bard/Mechanist/Summoner? If RDM getting a buff and turn to be that great class it would feel nice to me too but it wouldn't be me who you need to convince, It is the classes that loss their place to you, especially when 1 spot is likely get permenantly claimed by the BLM.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

It's not a proper way to use healing spell. I don't get why you guy're so upset.
5.1 is coming and RDM's buff/change is expected so you can ask for alt way or suggest a better changes but instead of asking for a proper/alt way you're so mad at me for trying to take the way to exploit that rely on transition from you.The battle stance I suggest could be a lv.72+ skill so you can kept using the expoilt in ultimate but why do you have to so quick to judge me? You could even suggest that when enter the stance in the beginning it give RDM's insta cast + free blk+wht mana but all I hear is how people upset with me, what the?

If instead of stance you get 10 sec personal dps boost would you rather using healing in that window instead of the attack skill? unless you want to reduce your dps? I've said this before that the stance doesn't have to be perma but if you want to deal better damage all time+have emboden improvement and able to use verrise/heal all the time it could bring us to another problem down below.

[I hope I don't have to repeat it again but] if after the changes RDM is being mobile+doing good damage + bring good dps utility + able to use verrise/heal at whim then is there a reason to bring Bard/Mechanist/Summoner? If RDM getting a buff and turn to be that great class it would feel nice to me too but it wasn't me who you need to convince, It is the classes that loss their place to you, especially when 1 spot is likely get permenantly claimed by the BLM.

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My dude. You need to calm down. The judgments you are getting are well-deserved because you don’t seem to consider how RDMs actively use Vercure, which implies you don’t know much about how the job plays at a high level. If this is true, you should not be suggesting changes. Get a decent understanding of how RDM playa before you start throwing ideas out there. Because, right now, I think you don’t understand how the job plays at all.

I’m not even upset. I’m just criticizing your suggestion because it seems to come from nowhere near a decent understanding of RDM gameplay.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

It's not a proper way to use healing spell. I don't get why you guy're so upset.

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Take away Manaward, Bloodbath, and Second Wind then. Emergencies aren't a thing, and Cure 1 is apparently OP.

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5.1 is coming and RDM's buff/change is expected

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There are RDM buffs / changes expected? Red Mage was one of the jobs that was hardly even mentioned in the Live Letter except to explain that Raise is why RDM and SMN suffer low DPS like they do. The devs never mentioned vercure.

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so you can ask for alt way or suggest a better changes but instead of asking for a proper/alt way you're so mad at me for trying to take the way to exploit that rely on transition from you.

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An exploit? Lmao is Umbral Soul an exploit now too? Is Form Shift an exploit now as well? I'm not mad, by the way, you posted your idea on a public forum, which means it's up to public scrutiny.

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The battle stance I suggest could be a lv.72+ skill so you can kept using the expoilt in ultimate but why do you have to so quick to judge me?

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I'm not judging you, I'm judging your ideas. Your ideas are not you. Also this would mean nothing for the next Ultimate.

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You could even suggest that when enter the stance in the beginning it give RDM's insta cast + free blk+wht mana but all I hear is how people upset with me, what the?

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"Look, you can't disagree with me that the moon is cheese, but what kind of cheese it is is up for debate."

The idea from the outset is almost wholesale Cleric Stance. Cleric Stance is something the developers removed from the game two expansions ago. I don't think Cleric Stance is a good way forward, full stop, so why would I make suggestions to improve your Cleric Stance? Why would giving RDM free instacast + free mana help the situation at all? That would mean having to time its use for transition phases, and one would probably already be timing them for group burst phases anyway?

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If instead of stance you get 10 sec personal dps boost would you rather using healing in that window instead of the attack skill? unless you want to reduce your dps? I've said this before that the stance doesn't have to be perma but if you want to deal better damage all time+have emboden improvement and able to use verrise/heal all the time it could bring us to another problem down below.

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If the stance isn't permanent, it changes nothing about the paradigm it has with Black Mage. The fact that Red Mage can raise at all puts it at odds with ever being near (read, not 1500+ behind) Black Mage's damage. Giving RDM a cleric stance would probably make it even tougher on Black Mages, unless they also get a stance that instead gives them access to a raise ability.

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[I hope I don't have to repeat it again but] if after the changes RDM is being mobile

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Hah, Red Mage, mobile. Good joke.

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+doing good damage + bring good dps utility

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With the current FFLogs paradigm these are one in the same.

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+ able to use verrise/heal at whim

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Verraise is the problem, not vercure.

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then is there a reason to bring Bard/Mechanist/Summoner?

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BRD/MCH/DNC would be brought for the 1% damage they offer the role, since Red Mage and Summoner should be fighting for the same slot as Black Mage. There's a problem when for the past two expansions, Casters and Rangers have both been fighting to hold both ranged slots in the party.

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If RDM getting a buff and turn to be that great class it would feel nice to me too but it wasn't me who you need to convince, It is the classes that loss their place to you, especially when 1 spot is likely get permenantly claimed by the BLM.

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If RDM gets all the buffs you outlined at once, it would be brokenly overpowered. But it won't; if anything, Summoner will rocket back up to the top while Bard and Machinist likewise go up. No data on DNC and how they treat it yet, but they seem to enjoy RDM and DNC being at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

Just add a passive to make Verflare or VerHoly AOE please, or add a secondary aoe move that can proc white or black mana exclusively off a proc.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Keep in mind when we talk about DPS balance we tall about RDPS which is more than just the amount of damage you put up on your own. RDM does not need to put up the same amount of personal DPS for it to contribute a comparable amount of rDPS, nor should it. What lots of people don't seem to understand is that rDPS is supposed to be damn near perfectly balanced because it represents the total amount of overall damage contribution by the class minus padding. If selfish jobs are blowing support jobs away so badly that their personal DPS alone makes their rDPS vastly vastly superior (keep in mind rDPS specifically excludes padding so in terms of actual performance the gap is even higher than rDPS suggests) then the gap is way way too high and balance is completely screwed. BLM's personal DPS alone should not put it 1500+ DPS above RDM in rDPS. Period.

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TLDR ; All I hear is DPS which is this game is built around on. Period this game will never achieve true balance.

These Support jobs you call it...should be able to clear any content as Yoshi P said.

Red mage will never reach top DPS with it's utility and Its too bad you don't like it. Oh well.

FFXIV is way to centered about DPS, I hope the next FF MMO is notthing like ffxiv

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

TLDR ; All I hear is DPS which is this game is built around on. Period this game will never achieve true balance.

These Support jobs you call it...should be able to clear any content as Yoshi P said.

Red mage will never reach top DPS with it's utility and Its too bad you don't like it. Oh well.

FFXIV is way to centered about DPS, I hope the next FF MMO is notthing like ffxiv

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No one is demanding RDM be the top DPS. They’re advocating for it to not be punished for utility that stops being utility in any farm or optimized setting (Verraise). They’re advocating for it to not be completely destroyed by BLM (which, it is being completely destroyed). Same for SMN. The imbalance between the casters is astounding, and worse than it was in Stormblood (where RDM also suffered for most of the expansion due to Verraise).

The “support” jobs are all viable—they can all clear the content. But there are some that are so weak that it’s becoming more and more likely that they are going to be excluded in favor of other jobs (e.g., the physical ranged are looking as if they will be excluded from speedkills and BLM take both ranged slots—Aether PFs for early Savage saw DNC being excluded in E3S and E4S parties due to its low personal damage, and the fact that its raid buffs do nothing to push it above any other DPS job). Jobs like SMN and RDM are completely flattened by the only other job in their role by no small margin (BLM); and jobs that have no utility (SAM) are being out-damaged by jobs that bring utility (MNK).

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

TLDR ; All I hear is DPS which is this game is built around on. Period this game will never achieve true balance.

These Support jobs you call it...should be able to clear any content as Yoshi P said.

Red mage will never reach top DPS with it's utility and Its too bad you don't like it. Oh well.

FFXIV is way to centered about DPS, I hope the next FF MMO is notthing like ffxiv

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It's almost as if you didn't even read my post. All you're doing here is just attacking the same strawman over and over again and completely ignoring any and all responses.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No one is demanding RDM be the top DPS. They’re advocating for it to not be punished for utility that stops being utility in any farm or optimized setting (Verraise). They’re advocating for it to not be completely destroyed by BLM (which, it is being completely destroyed). Same for SMN. The imbalance between the casters is astounding, and worse than it was in Stormblood (where RDM also suffered for most of the expansion due to Verraise).

The “support” jobs are all viable—they can all clear the content. But there are some that are so weak that it’s becoming more and more likely that they are going to be excluded in favor of other jobs (e.g., the physical ranged are looking as if they will be excluded from speedkills and BLM take both ranged slots—Aether PFs for early Savage saw DNC being excluded in E3S and E4S parties due to its low personal damage, and the fact that its raid buffs do nothing to push it above any other DPS job). Jobs like SMN and RDM are completely flattened by the only other job in their role by no small margin (BLM); and jobs that have no utility (SAM) are being out-damaged by jobs that bring utility (MNK).

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This seems like more of a personal problem , than a problem with red mage in general. Why don't you just find a party that will accept red mage then

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

It's almost as if you didn't even read my post. All you're doing here is just attacking the same strawman over and over again and completely ignoring any and all responses.

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I did but all I heard was "I want more DPS buffs"

It's too bad this game is all about DPS and not debuffing, or using enfeebling spells

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I did but all I heard was "I want more DPS buffs"

It's too bad this game is all about DPS and not debuffing, or using enfeebling spells

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Those would result in DPS gains as well and produce a higher rDPS number which is my point so I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for here. I'd be more than happy to accept abilities that debuff enemies so the party can do more damage to them, but that's not separate from DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I did but all I heard was "I want more DPS buffs"

It's too bad this game is all about DPS and not debuffing, or using enfeebling spells

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As much as I feel the job is in a bad place you seem to just dislike the game period. You don't *have* to play it, you know, FFXI is still online.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

This seems like more of a personal problem , than a problem with red mage in general. Why don't you just find a party that will accept red mage then

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Hmm. I don’t play RDM; I play DNC. So me “finding a party that will accept red mage” is irrelevant here. However, I don’t know how you can contest the numbers that show BLM ~1,500 rDPS above RDM. But, there are always those who try to argue with the numbers in favor of arguing with their feelings.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

TLDR ; All I hear is DPS which is this game is built around on. Period this game will never achieve true balance.

These Support jobs you call it...should be able to clear any content as Yoshi P said.

Red mage will never reach top DPS with it's utility and Its too bad you don't like it. Oh well.

FFXIV is way to centered about DPS, I hope the next FF MMO is notthing like ffxiv

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Red Mage can clear everything. Black Mage can outright die and still contribute more damage than Red Mage. But because Yoshida said Red Mage can clear, we'll just ignore how absurd that power difference is.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

No, RDM does not need to become a BLM and die to a single lizard in Ahm Aerang or one of the purple ochu's in the fringes during early progression every expansion...

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you're not serious are you?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Take away Manaward, Bloodbath, and Second Wind then. Emergencies aren't a thing, and Cure 1 is apparently OP.



There are RDM buffs / changes expected? Red Mage was one of the jobs that was hardly even mentioned in the Live Letter except to explain that Raise is why RDM and SMN suffer low DPS like they do. The devs never mentioned vercure.



An exploit? Lmao is Umbral Soul an exploit now too? Is Form Shift an exploit now as well? I'm not mad, by the way, you posted your idea on a public forum, which means it's up to public scrutiny.



I'm not judging you, I'm judging your ideas. Your ideas are not you. Also this would mean nothing for the next Ultimate.



"Look, you can't disagree with me that the moon is cheese, but what kind of cheese it is is up for debate."

The idea from the outset is almost wholesale Cleric Stance. Cleric Stance is something the developers removed from the game two expansions ago. I don't think Cleric Stance is a good way forward, full stop, so why would I make suggestions to improve your Cleric Stance? Why would giving RDM free instacast + free mana help the situation at all? That would mean having to time its use for transition phases, and one would probably already be timing them for group burst phases anyway?



If the stance isn't permanent, it changes nothing about the paradigm it has with Black Mage. The fact that Red Mage can raise at all puts it at odds with ever being near (read, not 1500+ behind) Black Mage's damage. Giving RDM a cleric stance would probably make it even tougher on Black Mages, unless they also get a stance that instead gives them access to a raise ability.



Hah, Red Mage, mobile. Good joke.



With the current FFLogs paradigm these are one in the same.



Verraise is the problem, not vercure.



BRD/MCH/DNC would be brought for the 1% damage they offer the role, since Red Mage and Summoner should be fighting for the same slot as Black Mage. There's a problem when for the past two expansions, Casters and Rangers have both been fighting to hold both ranged slots in the party.



If RDM gets all the buffs you outlined at once, it would be brokenly overpowered. But it won't; if anything, Summoner will rocket back up to the top while Bard and Machinist likewise go up. No data on DNC and how they treat it yet, but they seem to enjoy RDM and DNC being at the absolute bottom of the barrel.

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was going to chime in but you're doing gods work. i'll just watch on this one

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

This seems like more of a personal problem , than a problem with red mage in general. Why don't you just find a party that will accept red mage then

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Spending hours in party finder trying to find the one E4S clear party that won't consider you a nuisance to bring as RDM, while you could've instead spent 10 minutes doing so as BLM, is not, in fact, good gameplay.

Never understood people who argue instantly against DPS gains for RDM.

We can all see the huge disparity between the jobs, we all complain about this balancing v stormblood which the disparity was a lot less.

We ask for the top to be nerfed to reduce the problems. People say no buff lower jobs, no need to wreck someone else’s love in the game.

We Ask for buffs to bring us closer to the dps to restore the disparity to a more reasonable level and people say no dps gains aren’t needed :p

This huge disparity is effecting a lot of jobs atm And it’s benching quite a few jobs, there’s no need to uphold this level of dps difference between jobs and it’s not justified either.

We don’t need a 1700-2100 dps disparity between jobs. Just because one has a rezz or has 600 RDPS it doesn’t add up.

If the RDM is hving to cast Raise or Cure then he's destroying his DPS, that's punishment enough for using them. Also they cost a lot of mana and RDM only has lucid dreaming to get it back. They should be doing the same dps as Bard and summoner roughly.

I think there is also a problem with how the "skill gap" has been even more narrowed down in 5.X with the loss of the Impact gameplay. There were terrible RDMs that played Jolt / VerThunder/Aero / Jolt etc. with no real understanding of the benefit of Impact (or even procs in general). There's no real DPS gain now with Jolt and VerStone/Fire so close from each other.
Now the only "skill gap" I can see is players making benefits of Displacement boosted potency, and perhaps being comfortable playing around slidecast-dualcast for movement rather than using Reprise. During Stormblood, and excellent RDM could be not so far behind an average BLM / SMN.

This kind of "dumbs down" the job for me, and I have the impression that the devs lock the job out of better DPS score just because it's so easy compared to SMN or BRD, more than being that raise machine. So for me, RDM needs a bit more than raising its raid buff or overall potencies. I'd rather see new mechanics tied to its gameplay to make it a bit more complex at higher levels, which would be rewarded by better personal DPS for instance.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I think there is also a problem with how the "skill gap" has been even more narrowed down in 5.X with the loss of the Impact gameplay. There were terrible RDMs that played Jolt / VerThunder/Aero / Jolt etc. with no real understanding of the benefit of Impact (or even procs in general). There\\'s no real DPS gain now with Jolt and VerStone/Fire so close from each other.
Now the only "skill gap" I can see is players making benefits of Displacement boosted potency, and perhaps being comfortable playing around slidecast-dualcast for movement rather than using Reprise. During Stormblood, and excellent RDM could be not so far behind an average BLM / SMN.

This kind of "dumbs down" the job for me, and I have the impression that the devs lock the job out of better DPS score just because it\\'s so easy compared to SMN or BRD, more than being that raise machine. So for me, RDM needs a bit more than raising its raid buff or overall potencies. I\\'d rather see new mechanics tied to its gameplay to make it a bit more complex at higher levels, which would be rewarded by better personal DPS for instance.

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Gotta say I don't really see this at all tbh. For me the main takeaway from the loss of impact is how reliant it makes us on RNG not some idea of a "skill gap". Don't really see the point of feeling smug over the potential existence of people too dumb to utilize the job's procs. I mean those people are so far gone I can't even acknowledge them as red mage players so to me that's less skill gap and more just people not playing the job correctly at all.

The reason why RDM was stronger late in stormblood was because it did more damage comparatively not because it was more difficult or because it had more options for optimization. RDM today is almost exactly the same as RDM yesterday, just without the safety cushion of impact and with a lower amount of damage potential compared to other jobs especially BLM. I'd actually argue it's more the result of changes to other jobs more than changes to RDM.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Never understood people who argue instantly against DPS gains for RDM.

We can all see the huge disparity between the jobs, we all complain about this balancing v stormblood which the disparity was a lot less.

We ask for the top to be nerfed to reduce the problems. People say no buff lower jobs, no need to wreck someone else’s love in the game.

We Ask for buffs to bring us closer to the dps to restore the disparity to a more reasonable level and people say no dps gains aren’t needed :p

This huge disparity is effecting a lot of jobs atm And it’s benching quite a few jobs, there’s no need to uphold this level of dps difference between jobs and it’s not justified either.

We don’t need a 1700-2100 dps disparity between jobs. Just because one has a rezz or has 600 RDPS it doesn’t add up.

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For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

I play both classes and Bard isn't that harder. People think that but the songs are just buffs, not hard to keep track of really. Just end army 10 sec early. Keep your dots up every 30 sec. That's it. You never have to hard cast like rdm has to do. If you're talking about keybinds, both classes have the same for me. Bard has more OGD's but you can move whilst casting them which makes it easier.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

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That's what i've seen. People seem to hate on red mages and samuais also for whatever reason.

RDM doesn't need any of that, it just needs a flat DPS increase. I don't know if SE actually thinks that a crappy cure spell and a raise makes up for bringing practically no damage to a fight as a damage-dealer, but if so they are wrong. The cure *might* prevent a wipe in a dungeon run when the healer falls asleep and the raise is only moderately useful in anything outside of Savage/Extreme. Frankly, the difficulty of playing a job should have no bearing on what it actually brings to a fight, otherwise you're enforcing the idea of a "training wheels" job that is bad on purpose. Anybody who is familiar with tabletop gaming should be familiar with the idea of ivory tower game design and trap options, and why these were such phenomenally terrible ideas in execution.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

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"Red Mage is too easy to be allowed to be good" is a common talking point I see, which becomes silly when Red Mage needs to play at a higher skill level to achieve results comparable to those of a bad Black Mage, and few of the DPS jobs in Shadowbringers being actually hard.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

"Red Mage is too easy to be allowed to be good" is a common talking point I see, which becomes silly when Red Mage needs to play at a higher skill level to achieve results comparable to those of a bad Black Mage, and few of the DPS jobs in Shadowbringers being actually hard.

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I think the argument is that if a Red Mage and Black Mage had equal DPS at the most optimal level of play, that it would be unfair because Red Mage is way easier to play than BLM. Naturally, because RDM brings *some* DPS utility and is absurdly easy to play, it shouldn't be QUITE as strong as BLM, but being easy to play is no reason to leave a job in the dumpster.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Gotta say I don't really see this at all tbh. For me the main takeaway from the loss of impact is how reliant it makes us on RNG not some idea of a "skill gap". Don't really see the point of feeling smug over the potential existence of people too dumb to utilize the job's procs. I mean those people are so far gone I can't even acknowledge them as red mage players so to me that's less skill gap and more just people not playing the job correctly at all.

The reason why RDM was stronger late in stormblood was because it did more damage comparatively not because it was more difficult or because it had more options for optimization. RDM today is almost exactly the same as RDM yesterday, just without the safety cushion of impact and with a lower amount of damage potential compared to other jobs especially BLM. I'd actually argue it's more the result of changes to other jobs more than changes to RDM.

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I agree with this, it's absolutely true. Red Mage saw no significant changes besides AoE's that are weak and were called Veraero/Thunder II bc you know SE has a phobia of giving RDM Water or Blizzard, and Scorch, then two situational moves. Not saying that I want it's overall design to be changed, because I believe it is pretty perfect, BUT, they could have done so much MORE, I already posted something in this thread about it, and have even made my own Give Red Mage Blizzard and Water already thread; so I don't want to beat on a dead horse because quite frankly, SE isn't going to do anything significant until 6.0, but the shear disappointment to RDM's toolkit in 5.0 was just a weak attempt. Maybe when I return in 3 or so months my Red Mage will be in its prime again.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

I think the argument is that if a Red Mage and Black Mage had equal DPS at the most optimal level of play, that it would be unfair because Red Mage is way easier to play than BLM. Naturally, because RDM brings *some* DPS utility and is absurdly easy to play, it shouldn't be QUITE as strong as BLM, but being easy to play is no reason to leave a job in the dumpster.

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That's the hyperbolic strawman that's brought up all the time.

No one is ever asking for BLM level damage, but the gap between BLM and RDM should be smaller. An 11% Difference in damage at the highest skill level for two classes in the same role is absurd.

Relative to 100 Percentile*
Difference for Healers: ~2.5
Difference for Tanks: ~.5
Difference for Melee: ~5 [This score is still normalizing, so i'm using the last week instead of 2 weeks. Odds are most Ninjas aren't geared yet]
Difference for Ranged: ~2%
Difference for casters: ~11%

The caster role needs broken apart or reevaluated if this sort of damage gap is going to continue.