So...DRK kinda sucks now.

Delirium = Spin to win

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Originally Posted by Satarn

I was happy with DRK in SB and this isn't "in hindsight" - I've already been saying back then that the job didn't need a big revamp, just some tweaks and improvements in the direction it was already going, you know, what expansion updates are supposed to do.
Same with WAR btw, only started complaining about it once the 4.2 "fix" happened.

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If said direction included the spam of DA still, then it was a direction I'm glad they stopped. That was not fun, it was never fun to spam one button over and over again between multiple attacks. DA in HW was better because of how much of a risk it was to use it due to your MP degen, and it was used with defensive cooldowns as well as attacks. SB cut out the defensive cooldown usage of it for the most part, and it turned into a spammy mess that was a disgrace to its original HW state. DRK needed to lose DA at that point due to all the complaints about how unfun the spam was, combined with them having dropped the pool of defensive cooldowns we can use for ShB. It was a pipe dream to think they'd keep DA usage amidst the complaints.

From an outside viewpoint, I actually really like healing DRKs now. They used to be my absolute least favorite as they seemed to take huge hits far too often and required a lot of babysitting. I'm not sure if this is just how the class was, or perhaps it required more skill to play properly, but my DF experiences made me strongly dislike DRK tanks.


Since ShB, I've actually been quite happy with the DRKs I run across. I'm not sure what all has changed, but I'll take it. PLDs, which used to be #1, have dropped to my least favorite. :X

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

snip

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DA never was a problem in terms of desing, they could easily keep the skill if they removed the DA effect of syphon and bloodspiller and add a new combo like in HW making DRK still being unique, combined with edge/flood as dinamic use of you MP or many other ways to manage it, remove it was unjustified.

SE remove DA bcs they are lazy with DRK form some reason, they has been always lazy with DRK, 1 year to buff a job that has been screaming buffs since 4.0 and now removing all his gameplay and the sustained nature of the job to make it a WAR burst clone instead of keep it unique and more fun without all the problems of SB as we ask

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

From an outside viewpoint, I actually really like healing DRKs now. They used to be my absolute least favorite as they seemed to take huge hits far too often and required a lot of babysitting. I'm not sure if this is just how the class was, or perhaps it required more skill to play properly, but my DF experiences made me strongly dislike DRK tanks.


Since ShB, I've actually been quite happy with the DRKs I run across. I'm not sure what all has changed, but I'll take it. PLDs, which used to be #1, have dropped to my least favorite. :X

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I'll explain you what has changed:

TBN was buffed from a 20% to a 25% shield.

DRK lost AoE blind
DRK lost his spamable AoE selfheal
DRK lost mana regenration, wich means he can use TBN a bit less often now
DRK lost his selfheal from Sole Survivor
DRK lost 10% damage reduction from Dark Mind (wich doesn't matter most of the time since it's magic only)

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

From an outside viewpoint, I actually really like healing DRKs now. They used to be my absolute least favorite as they seemed to take huge hits far too often and required a lot of babysitting. I'm not sure if this is just how the class was, or perhaps it required more skill to play properly, but my DF experiences made me strongly dislike DRK tanks.


Since ShB, I've actually been quite happy with the DRKs I run across. I'm not sure what all has changed, but I'll take it. PLDs, which used to be #1, have dropped to my least favorite. :X

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My cousin likes paladin he calls it the god tank, he didn't like that they took flash away but he worked it out with other skills, he says as long as it works he will always be paladin he hasn't tried gunbreaker yet but he wants to.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I'll explain you what has changed:

TBN was buffed from a 20% to a 25% shield.

DRK lost AoE blind
DRK lost his spamable AoE selfheal
DRK lost mana regenration, wich means he can use TBN a bit less often now
DRK lost his selfheal from Sole Survivor
DRK lost 10% damage reduction from Dark Mind (wich doesn't matter most of the time since it's magic only)

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We didnt lose some of these things so much as they got displaced by reworks due to TP and tank homogenization. We dont have the blind, per se, but we got arms legth with a slow (so less RNG in that regards). There are nice changes that happened that were good for DRK, but those changes were a matter of addressing tank role changes generally. Overall, yes, DRK does feel heavily peared down. TBN with 25% mitigation is amazing. Not gonna deny that. But if thats it really, well, It just doestn feel super worth it, especially since this change was a bigger benefit to other targets before us (we got what...5% increase, where another target got 15%). All they did with Dark Mind is split it into two CDs now, and make one an AoE. So its like having a second reprisal for magic specific damage (nice length admittedly). AoE combo is cool but SBs aoe management was much more fun and interesting. Doing it just right meant you were pushing out good damage and getting great mitigation. This is now just spam the 2 CD AoE combo, fill it with FoS between GCDs, and use Quietus when you can on 3 or more targets.

It's just kinda...meh. There's nothing that makes it feel like it's own class anymore. Its a mish mash of War and PLD dumbed down to a very low skill ceiling. Im not saying it should be super hard to play DRK, but it doesnt feel like I ahve to do much thinking at all to do well with it. Nothing in its kit stands out as unique. Its all filler or reskins. It really is a killjoy for me.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

but we got arms legth with a slow (so less RNG in that regards)

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That's a role skill wich every tank has, so it doesn't matter for comparing tanks against each other.

But when we dip into role skills we also lost Anticipation, Convalescence and Awarness.


However, all what I wanted was to make some fun about the fact that Skivvy thinks SB DRK was squishier than ShB DRK >.>

They should just bring back the Heavenward of Dark Knight. Current version of DRK is trash.

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Originally Posted by Nithralder

They should just bring back the Heavenward of Dark Knight. Current version of DRK is trash.

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Sorry. Cant consider the opinion of someone who hasn't even tried the job valid. Level it past 32 then comment on it

Lets be honest. People complaining about DA spam are actually saying this.

"I had to hit DA between every attack because if I didn't I wouldn't get max dps and be at the top of the parse"

Again it's another example of how SE sacrificing everything to the all powerful DPS > all meta got us Balance bot AST, NIN still being kicked from savage content despite Yoshi's statement on wanting every role to be viable, and this utility free garbage version of DRK that plays like a shallow uninspired warrior wannabe. Minus the things that made it fun and feel like a real unique tank in the form of blood price, sole survivor, AD spam, and passenger among others.

Now if you didn't give a damn about your dps and did oh i don't know this crazy thing called be a tank, DA "spam" was only needed two places.

Dark passenger for the blind
Abyssal drain for the HP

Optional being

Carve and spit if you didn't need the extra mp boost
syphon strike, soul eater, and blood spiller for the extra potency

Saying you had to press it between every attack is frankly ridiculous. And regardless of that at least that DA had what felt like a real impact on my skills instead of this new and not improved DA spam that's an equally visually uninspired sword poke or slash to keep a paltry dps boost up for our watered down IR. Which you'll never bother to use quietus on anyway, and don't even get me started on the nerfs to it's MP gain.

Now DRK is a one trick pony, and that tricks name is TBN. Which even then has gone from a meaningful impact in terms of impact and lore (taking pain to get blood) to just a neutral at best to dps loss at worst power that's not even needed when you can just pop rampart or arms length on a trash pull, pop flood for the dps gain and extra hit off the bat and let the healers do this crazy thing called heal [sarcasm] unless that dips into their precious dps uptime too? [/sarcasm]

The class works, but it's not fun. The problem isn't even homogenization though, it's the shallowness and utter lack of identity that kills it for me. you could have named it big sword guy for all the similarity it has to any previous incarnations of dark knights anymore.

In an attempt to be constructive though I will offer this.

*Give us back old quietus, make that risk vs reward mean something on big pulls
*At the same time give us back a spamable AD at 3000 MP, make us have meaningful choices to bring back the resource management feel old DRK had.
*Give back Blood price for an extra mp regen tool that again can be a risk v reward / or at least make MP regen with delirium consistent, 200 mp for a BS is insulting.
*Take a page from BLM and extend the TBN duration by 3 secs to make it viable to pop on trash pulls when you're overgeared for the content (seriously the fact it works better when you aren't keeping up is idiotic, aug scaven gear couldn't break it until i was fighting 4+ mobs in holminster switch at 71)

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat

Lets be honest. People complaining about DA spam are actually saying this.

"I had to hit DA between every attack because if I didn't I wouldn't get max dps and be at the top of the parse"

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Yes, indeed, the people complaining about DA spam are actually saying that playing Dark Knight correctly, instead of throwing out single target abyssal drains and fully resisted blinds at raid bosses, required you, indeed, to use Dark Arts at a rate of around 10+ casts a minute. Inventing freestyle rotations against raid bosses to compensate for the correct rotation not being fun is not many people's idea of how to make tanking entertaining in this game. If we're going to be talking in the realm of just pressing random buttons at the boss I don't even see why people would complain about the new Delirium, since you can choose to not press the same button 5 times in a row during it, if that is your desire, you could, indeed, mix Quietus and Bloodspillers in randomly since DPS doesn't matter and only tanking does, I guess?

I like DRK, It just feels like it has a bunch of leftover artifacts from what it used to be making it kind of weird and clunky
It could use a good amount of streamlining

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Sorry. Cant consider the opinion of someone who hasn't even tried the job valid. Level it past 32 then comment on it

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Yeah because alts are not a thing

Preferences aside, main disapointment I have is in the false advertising of a 'DRK rework.'

90% of the DRK rework was the consequence of MP normalization and tank homogenization. They had to make those changes. The only unique rework I feel was in converting DA potency delivery to Edge/Flood (the spam removal). Everything else was residual. Yet the residual of SB : the no DA-Dark Mind : somehow remained as is.. Essentially doubled down on with Dark Missionary.. When they said rework I think of the transformation PLD has gone through since 3.0. And the two are really not comparable, imo.

--And I agree that WAR, though maybe not be as bad shape as DRK imo, is also on the wrong path.

If SE wants/needs a simple job to entice new or less engaged players, dont sabotage an existing, introduce an Onion Knight or something.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

DRK is way more fun now.
No more Dark Arts spam, effective and interesting mitigation technique in TBN that feels great to pull off.
No other tank has anything as satisfying as TBN right now.

Living Dead is still a problem, but it always has been.
Personally I think the penalty for not getting healed in Living Dead should just be weakness, as if you died and were raised, but without actually dying and losing aggro.

Maybe tweak Abyssal Drain. Reduce it's cooldown, and change it's HP regen calculation to give more for the first target and have it drop off from there.

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I disagree...especially with what you said about DRK being more fun now. Now mind you, a class's fun factor varies depending on the person so this is going to be a rather subjective debate, but I still would like to share my thoughts with you.

Firstly, I agree that Dark Arts needed a tweak but I don't think the correct answer was to outright remove it (let's be real here, the new "Dark Arts" that grants you the free Flood or Edge is only similar to the old Dark Arts in name, they are completely different mechanics). You got to admit that Dark Arts was a rather interesting concept (situational skill augmentation), it was just handled poorly. The spam and constant MP drain that accompanied it was definitely annoying, but imo, it was much more tolerable than only having one single target combo, snail-like mp regen, an almost scripted playstyle, and overall just less choices/less freedom. Also, I disagree with the new TBN being more satisfying or more interesting. It feels way too scripted now, there's no choice and no options to weigh, which results in less engaging gameplay (imo). In SB, TBN breaking would you 50 meter instantly, and with the meter you could either just do raw damage and cast Bloodspiller, use (my personal favorite option) Quietus if you were in a mob and regain beautiful amounts of MP all while dealing aoe damage and begin your Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain loop while also generating enough MP to cast more TBNs and becoming nearly invincible in mobs, or pop Delirium for that quick and easy MP regen and also extended Blood Weapon/Price.

In ShB, you can either.....do Edge....or Flood, and these are essentially the same moves, just that one is aoe and one is single target. Compared to SB's TBN, ShB's just seems so uninspired and honestly, kind of lazy...

I agree about LD, the skill is laughable and it's very disappointing that they still have not made any tweaks to it. However, the suggestion that you proposed isn't too bad! It almost sounds like you want LD to be a self-raise, I like that.

And as for Abyssal Drain, I think a decent fix for it would be to just give it two charges.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Preferences aside, main disapointment I have is in the false advertising of a 'DRK rework.'

90% of the DRK rework was the consequence of MP normalization and tank homogenization. They had to make those changes. The only unique rework I feel was in converting DA potency delivery to Edge/Flood (the spam removal). Everything else was residual. Yet the residual of SB : the no DA-Dark Mind : somehow remained as is.. Essentially doubled down on with Dark Missionary.. When they said rework I think of the transformation PLD has gone through since 3.0. And the two are really not comparable, imo.

--And I agree that WAR, though maybe not be as bad shape as DRK imo, is also on the wrong path.

If SE wants/needs a simple job to entice new or less engaged players, dont sabotage an existing, introduce an Onion Knight or something.

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Strongly agree.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

We didnt lose some of these things so much as they got displaced by reworks due to TP and tank homogenization. We dont have the blind, per se, but we got arms legth with a slow (so less RNG in that regards). There are nice changes that happened that were good for DRK, but those changes were a matter of addressing tank role changes generally. Overall, yes, DRK does feel heavily peared down. TBN with 25% mitigation is amazing. Not gonna deny that. But if thats it really, well, It just doestn feel super worth it, especially since this change was a bigger benefit to other targets before us (we got what...5% increase, where another target got 15%). All they did with Dark Mind is split it into two CDs now, and make one an AoE. So its like having a second reprisal for magic specific damage (nice length admittedly). AoE combo is cool but SBs aoe management was much more fun and interesting. Doing it just right meant you were pushing out good damage and getting great mitigation. This is now just spam the 2 CD AoE combo, fill it with FoS between GCDs, and use Quietus when you can on 3 or more targets.

It's just kinda...meh. There's nothing that makes it feel like it's own class anymore. Its a mish mash of War and PLD dumbed down to a very low skill ceiling. Im not saying it should be super hard to play DRK, but it doesnt feel like I ahve to do much thinking at all to do well with it. Nothing in its kit stands out as unique. Its all filler or reskins. It really is a killjoy for me.

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Nice write up. Agree with everything you said, especially your point about SB's aoe management.

For new Dark alot of the stuff just doesn't feel great

Blood weapon lost it's haste and now just a delayed infuriate

I don't even mind the blood spiller spam so much but it feels extremely lack luster compared to IR

Living Shadow is just something you throw out occasionally has such a minor effect on overall game play and Delirium only makes Blood spiller free not LS which is kinda odd.

Salted Earth is just bad now no more blood tick either needs to be stronger or Turned into some form of utility for Party similar to healer bubbles.

abysmal Drain needs to have a shorter CD just to help with that self healing

Aesthetically the jobs fine
But Dark in HW and SB was all about speed now it's all been stripped away in ShB
I don't even care if Dark is complex or Brain dead just want the job to not get gutted every expansion and just head back to what it was at some point.

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Originally Posted by Dragonkat

Now if you didn't give a damn about your dps and did oh i don't know this crazy thing called be a tank, DA "spam" was only needed two places.

Dark passenger for the blind
Abyssal drain for the HP

Optional being

Carve and spit if you didn't need the extra mp boost
syphon strike, soul eater, and blood spiller for the extra potency

Saying you had to press it between every attack is frankly ridiculous. And regardless of that at least that DA had what felt like a real impact on my skills instead of this new and not improved DA spam that's an equally visually uninspired sword poke or slash to keep a paltry dps boost up for our watered down IR. Which you'll never bother to use quietus on anyway, and don't even get me started on the nerfs to it's MP gain.

Now DRK is a one trick pony, and that tricks name is TBN. Which even then has gone from a meaningful impact in terms of impact and lore (taking pain to get blood) to just a neutral at best to dps loss at worst power that's not even needed when you can just pop rampart or arms length on a trash pull, pop flood for the dps gain and extra hit off the bat and let the healers do this crazy thing called heal [sarcasm] unless that dips into their precious dps uptime too? [/sarcasm]

The class works, but it's not fun. The problem isn't even homogenization though, it's the shallowness and utter lack of identity that kills it for me. you could have named it big sword guy for all the similarity it has to any previous incarnations of dark knights anymore.

In an attempt to be constructive though I will offer this.

*Give us back old quietus, make that risk vs reward mean something on big pulls
*At the same time give us back a spamable AD at 3000 MP, make us have meaningful choices to bring back the resource management feel old DRK had.
*Give back Blood price for an extra mp regen tool that again can be a risk v reward / or at least make MP regen with delirium consistent, 200 mp for a BS is insulting.
*Take a page from BLM and extend the TBN duration by 3 secs to make it viable to pop on trash pulls when you're overgeared for the content (seriously the fact it works better when you aren't keeping up is idiotic, aug scaven gear couldn't break it until i was fighting 4+ mobs in holminster switch at 71)

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You forgot to mention Power Slash(coolest ability for a combo ender btw) for extra aggro/enmity generation, which as an offtank I used over Syphon Strike as that was more of a 'in case main tank dies' scenario I could turn Grit on if I had the MP, Provoke, and Power Slash maybe twice to make sure I had the boss' attention. (had to cut out some of the quote to post and too lazy to edit after posting)

Let's calm down a bit, being pasive agresive don't solve anything.

I don't think DRK is a bad class now.

Lost all the appeals it had for me to PLAY the class now but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Though also, with everyone going on about how busted TBN is, my gaming history fully expects it to be nerfed due to seeing abilities get hit with the nerf bat when it seems to be the only thing talked about the class/character. Honest question, would people still like DRK if TBN got nerfed?

TBN has the same eHP effect as RI and Sheltron. Each one has their advantages. Sheltron can be saved up and used back to back. RI and HoL are free to use with impunity.

TBN feels stylistically good to use because it negates part of the damage, but that's a subjective effect. The main benefit that it brings to the table relative to the others is in shielding your co-tank from a tankbuster, but it can't be used the way any of the other ones can on non-tankbuster level damage. You have to be more selective on what you mitigate. You also have to plan in advance what your cooldown strategy is going to be so that you can be at the correct MP level for those tankbusters.

It definitely makes the job more interesting, though. It's the only way in which you can effectively go 'above' max MP to store up an extra Edge/Flood for burst.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

TBN has the same eHP effect as RI and Sheltron. Each one has their advantages. Sheltron can be saved up and used back to back. RI and HoL are free to use with impunity.

TBN feels stylistically good to use because it negates part of the damage, but that's a subjective effect. The main benefit that it brings to the table relative to the others is in shielding your co-tank from a tankbuster, but it can't be used the way any of the other ones can on non-tankbuster level damage. You have to be more selective on what you mitigate. You also have to plan in advance what your cooldown strategy is going to be so that you can be at the correct MP level for those tankbusters.

It definitely makes the job more interesting, though. It's the only way in which you can effectively go 'above' max MP to store up an extra Edge/Flood for burst.

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But no one ever talks about RI or Sheltron. And apparently no one also talks about whatever Gunbreaker gets. It's always "TBN is so GOOD, TBN is Busted, TBN this and TBN that". Like it's the only thing worth talking about or even worth taking DRK for.

In another game, I would expect such a talked about ability to be hit with the nerf bat. But I suppose that's for another topic. I just question if people would have as much love for DRK if TBN didn't get the buff.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

though dark knight is a stress on healers.
like I said before on top they have issues when pulling huge some will say no but its true i cant count how many times I died in a group when a dark knight has been in party I guess you'll say they must not know how to use it.

that might be the case I don't know but watching their health get ripped up quick compared to other tanks is crazy.

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Wait, what? DRK is arguably the tankiest of the tanks right now thanks to how strong TBN is. It's literally free mitigation as long as you use it correclty, and can save hundreds of thousands of HP in healing over the course of a raid or 4-man dungeon. DRK has absolutely no problems with mitigation now, with the only real problem from a damage absorption point of view being the iffy nature of Living Dead (very dependent on your healers knowing how to play around it).

As for anything DRK needs, about the only thing I would like to see is it become a bit more "busy" from an oGCD perspective. Slight boosts to MP efficiency (either income or output) and either lowering the CD on AB/CnS or adding some kind of CD lowering mechanic to it (i.e. cuts cooldown on both by 30s when TBN breaks or something similar) would go a long way towards making the job a bit more engaging without making it OP. Add a bit of MP gain onto AB and we'd be good to go. But as far as mitigation goes DRK is fine. It's the tankiest of the tanks right now, and it can share a good chunk of that tankiness with anyone else. If you're not selectively placing TBN's on raid members to help them deal with mechanics (Delta Attack in E1S for example, or immediately after Hell Wind during towers in E2S) then you're not using it correctly. The true value in TBN isn't just the mitigation aspect of it; it's allowing your healers to save a GCD or two that they would have spent healing someone from a mechanic and dedicating that GCD to something else (usually damage).

DRK right now work fine as tank and he is good (if it wasnt called DARK KNIGHT but any other name all comunity would be happy), just lot of rework, cut comunity with different design+ ff11 fan boys wanted a DPS or a DRAIN TANK. As a anti tank buster or anti magic tank, they made and actual great job on him.

Kinda sucks?

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

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People aren't talking as positively about Sheltron because it used to be significantly more powerful last expansion. With Block DR values subject to checks and balances, it's more standardised in line with the others. HoS is the only one that is slightly weaker than the others, but it's also more powerful than PLD and WAR when used on a teammate, and be used pretty much on recast unlike TBN. There are upsides and downsides to everything.

If anything, the standard TBN/DM combo for magic tankbusters is weaker than it was in Stormblood, and TBN overall is less flexible than it used to be. I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay. Living Dead, on the other hand, is still a nightmare defensively.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

But no one ever talks about RI or Sheltron. And apparently no one also talks about whatever Gunbreaker gets. It's always "TBN is so GOOD, TBN is Busted, TBN this and TBN that". Like it's the only thing worth talking about or even worth taking DRK for.

In another game, I would expect such a talked about ability to be hit with the nerf bat. But I suppose that's for another topic. I just question if people would have as much love for DRK if TBN didn't get the buff.

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If TBN got nerfed to where it was 20% HP but gave 50 blood gauge on top of MP refund, to balance it out then I would love like it was Stormblood but I would still wish for Shadowskin to be brought back and it upgrades into TBN, but that's just wishful thinking...


I also hate TBN because the benefits it provides are pointless because Savage mode and Extreme exist since those are "DPS checks the fight" but it wouldn't change how boring DRK is to play outside of those DPS gain moments...


If they brought back Spinnig Slash and Power Slash and buffed Souleater to where it doubles the potency of your next Spinning Slash and Power Slash on top of adding 2 gauge based burst combos the have 550, 600, and 650 attack potency and 200 cure potency it would bring DRKs sustained DPS up by a lot and give DRK the HP Drain tank identity that it deserves. And it actually fits in the lore of DRK that were given from level 30-70, so it's an overall win-win for everyone.

Also **** Trick Attack, it duration needs to be longer than 10 seconds...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People aren't talking as positively about Sheltron because it used to be significantly more powerful last expansion. With Block DR values subject to checks and balances, it's more standardised in line with the others. HoS is the only one that is slightly weaker than the others, but it's also more powerful than PLD and WAR when used on a teammate, and be used pretty much on recast unlike TBN. There are upsides and downsides to everything.

If anything, the standard TBN/DM combo for magic tankbusters is weaker than it was in Stormblood, and TBN overall is less flexible than it used to be. I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay. Living Dead, on the other hand, is still a nightmare defensively.

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Use it on Tankbusters to make sure it breaks and thus you get your free Edge use. Wow. Riveting gameplay.

Now I think EVERY DRK can agree on Living Dead being a nightmare to handle. Really the only thing I find it really useful for is if I get singled out for a mulithit stack, I can just pop Living Dead an go off to the side as I haven't seen one that punches through Immunity yet.

New DRK isn't a bad class but it lost the things I liked playing about it. And no simple patch is going to radically change it till next expansion so I've just given up on it. Heck with the changes to all the tanks(And tanking) I've considered just hanging up the Role this expansion but that's another topic.

The question is when do you use that free edge? It doesn't expire.

If you're a bit creative, this unlocks some interesting fight specific considerations.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that with a lot more people actually trying out DRK after the rework, they're just discovering how much fun the barrier aesthetic is for the first time. It also requires a bit of thinking and planning, which in turn enhances the gameplay.

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If TBN is what makes SHB DRK interesting and engaging, then SB DRK stomps it by a long shot, because TBN got really simplified in the expac transition.

SHB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Edge/Flood and upon breaking gives you a free use of Edge/Flood, so if you screw up you lose 500/300 potency and if it breaks your reward is... that nothing really changed. Of course in reality you've gained the shield, but aside from the chance to fail and be punished, you might've as well just had TBN on a free ogcd like other tank mitigation. Yes, it technically allows you to store "extra mp" above your natural pool, but with how slow MP gains are in SHB, there isn't really much risk of overcapping anyways, especially if you're spending MP on TBN, so if anything you're more limited by having to spend that single proc slot before using TBN again.

SB TBN costs you the same amount of MP as Dark Arts and upon breaking gives you 50 blood to spend on one of 3 skills, Bloodspiller, Quietus and Delirium. If you screw up you lose 140 potency from DA, which is way less punishing than SHB(that's either a good thing because it feels less shitty so you're more encouraged to use the skill, or worse because it's not punishing enough - this really depends on how you feel about it). If the shield breaks, the reward depends on what you spend that blood on:

Bloodspiller - worst case scenario it's dps neutral eventually, but because it's a gcd, you can use it for gcd manipulation or even to fit more potency into burst windows, because while BS potency kinda refunds you a DA, you can still DA the BS itself.

Quietus - with enough targets it gives you more MP than you've spend on the TBN, especially if you had BW active, which lets you continue your AoE and sustain with AD. Also only AoE gcd which can be DAd for a dps gain(AD only gets the healing effect).

Delirium - ogcd with a relatively long recast, but a huge dps gain. The initial MP boost and BW extension give you way more MP than the TBN cost, as well as more gcds due to the increase in attack speed. You need to keep in mind though, that if the boss is about to go afk you'll lose the BW uptime, so it might be better to save Delirium cd and just BS right now.

SB TBN rewarding blood and Delirium/Quietus MP, created interactions between both resources giving SB DRK's kit synergy, something that SHB DRK is sorely lacking.

SHB TBN is boring in comparison, because devs made it dps neutral in the most obvious, clear cut way possible, because people couldn't wrap their heads around TBN BS actually also being dps neutral, when you looked at the entire encounter.

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

[edit] Funny thing, SB TBN decreased the frequency of "DA spam" that people complain about so much, but SHB TBN doesn't affect the "Edge spam" in the slightest.

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Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Edge Spam is not even remotely comparable to DA spam. A mildly unimpressive buff with that easily reached 10 casts per minute has a very different feeling from a high potency attack that is cast only 4 times per minute.

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Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

The amount of Dark Arts in SB was a problem, but not the amount of MP and APM. What we needed was more different things to spend MP on than just DA and TBN. SHB has cut the amount of APM which makes the job feel slower, but the inputs which do remain, are even less varied than before, rather than more.
The saddest part is that having Darkside upkeep be tied to an MP spender was a great idea to work towards that, but they tied it to all spenders instead of just one, including TBN, which entirely defeats the point.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Yeah, having not much else to do but repeat one combo with next to no ogcds and then spamming one ogcd multiple times when raid buffs are up, is so much better than having to watch your mp and weaving extra ogcd whenever you'd overcap, while still conserving most of your mp for the spam burst windows. /s

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That's a really weird way to move the goalposts, given that your original statement is that "Edge Spam" is in no way different from "DA Spam", which it, uh, absolutely is, from a quantitative point of view, unless we're of the view that "ten" and "four" are basically the same number. Dark Arts constituted 20-25% of Dark Knight's APM in Stormblood, while Edge of Shadow is so lacking in spamminess, that "Dark Knight doesn't regenerate enough MP to use Edge of Shadow enough" is a common complaint, since it turns out that there's a lot of granularity between "you use this action on average every 6 seconds" and "you use this action on average every 15 seconds".

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

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I always felt Bloodspiller needed more hang time, less fluidity, and more -bang- when it landed.

Take a look at Gunbreaker's first cartridge weaponskill. The amount of weight the movement shows makes Bloodspiller look like you were ice skating.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

That's a really weird way to move the goalposts, given that your original statement is that "Edge Spam" is in no way different from "DA Spam"

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Maybe because it's not moving goal posts at all, I don't think you understand what this phrase means. Or that you've actually read what you're responding to. Where have I said they're "in no way different"?

All I'm saying is that Edge is also spammed in burst windows and in that one way it's just as bad, but it also lacks the perk of increasing our overall APM and making you pay attention to MP during downtime. All the original line you quoted said, was that TBN doesn't affect amount of Edge used like it did for DA, nothing else. Yes, the amount is way lower to begin with, but the point is mechanic for adding some variety is lost.

That's a straw man argument btw, if you like fallacies so much.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

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This part is just absolutely subjective, as I feel the complete opposite - Edge has no cool, "eldritch" feeling to it's animation and noise like Dark Arts had. All it is is a random slash with a cheap sounding ghost scream or whatever. It doesn't seem to flow into other animations too well either. On top of that, it has a similar "pause" at the end, as the one which makes Bloodspiller so odd to use multiple times in a row.
Don't even get me started on Flood - that's legit the worst animation(if you can even call standing with your sword pointed forward and not moving at all "animation") in the game and the "sploodge" sound is even worse.

I know very well that visuals and sound are important, things like noise on DA, AD and CnS were part of what I enjoyed in DRK before. One of those is gone and one is a joke compared to what it used to be - replaced with Sploodge of Shadow and Stalwart Disco Lights. RIP Dark Passenger as well.

None of this however changes that I'm constantly advocating for neither to be spammed and instead having more varied buttons(and animations) to weave, while retaining the amount of overall inputs and MP management as SB.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

Also the Dark Arts animation was very much not designed to be spammed and as such felt bizarre and unsatisfying, like if Warrior pressed Inner Release between every GCD. Edge of Shadow looks and feels satisfying and immediately gives you feedback on how much damage it added, and, visual and audio feedback can make a huge difference. See, for example, how much people dislike the feeling of Delirium, in comparison to the feeling of Inner Release, solely because of the animation spammed.

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That is subjective. Edge of Shadow just feels "there" to me, no real "UMPH" behind it where as DA felt more "Here's the wind up" to the next attack. To give a an example from another tank, Warrior's Upheavel has a good animation and SFX to me. The "1, 2, THREE!" feels impactful and I look forward to pulling it off each time to the point I sometimes catch myself watching the full animation rather than weaving around it more. Edge just feels.... "Oh here's an attack real fast... k".

As a realated thing to show I'm not just Dunking on DRK, SE WHY'D YOU GET RID OF BUTCHER'S BLOCK?!?! Storm Path might be the preferred Finisher but it has the impact of a noddle to me, COME ON! AND MCH LOST THE GUN AMMO ANIMATIONS TOO *Strangles stress dummy in rage*

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I always felt Bloodspiller needed more hang time, less fluidity, and more -bang- when it landed.

Take a look at Gunbreaker's first cartridge weaponskill. The amount of weight the movement shows makes Bloodspiller look like you were ice skating.

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That's a great point. Burst Strike looks and feels great. It feels more impactful than Bloodspiller, even though it doesn't have the same potency.

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Originally Posted by Quor

That's a great point. Burst Strike looks and feels great. It feels more impactful than Bloodspiller, even though it doesn't have the same potency.

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Carve and Spit has more "UMPH" and long animation but it's not a GCD, it's an oGCD...