Vote Kick griefing

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is easy to get around. Usually I'm in a premade with 2 others and when someone does this. We have no issue waiting the timer out and then dismissing the person in question. There are some strong classes, but no heale that can solo bosses. We simply will not engage if we suspect someone trying to avoid being dismissed for what they know to be shady actions worth dismissal over. Engage a boss to avoid a vote kick, you're going to hit the floor eventually. And then you'll be out of combat and removed. Likely before you're done loading in after the respawn.

By all means, try it though. Such actions are going to look really really bad to a GM though. But ball is in your court, not mine.

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Guess you and your "premade" make use of the vote kick a lot then, good for you i guess.

Also why would it "look really really bad to a GM" no one are breaking any rules by not rolling on the item right away.

inb4 "playstyle differences"

If it happened exactly the way you said it did then yes it is probably a reportable offense. We only have one side of the story, however. A lot of things can factor into a vote to kick.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

Guess you and your "premade" make use of the vote kick a lot then, good for you i guess.

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We do. Did so the day before yesterday. Though the issue with that healer was they weren't pulling their own weight at all. They couldn't keep themselves alive. And on the second near failed attempt, they pulled the plug while loot was going and the boss was still alive. Thankfully a LB from me finished off the boss after the tank eventually went down. We had to wait 3 minutes because of this little trick of yours to get a replacement.

Judging by the response I got, the three minutes they wasted, cost them a bit longer. So yeah.. try your shenanigans. I'm not going to stop you. That's not my job to. There are those who are paid for it though. Your choice in the end.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

I routinely attempt to get single-target DPS kicked from lvl 60+ dungeons but the party rarely goes through with it.

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Now I know whom to vote-kick by default. People like you - even if I'm a tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This is easy to get around. Usually I'm in a premade with 2 others and when someone does this. We have no issue waiting the timer out and then dismissing the person in question. There are some strong classes, but no heale that can solo bosses. We simply will not engage if we suspect someone trying to avoid being dismissed for what they know to be shady actions worth dismissal over. Engage a boss to avoid a vote kick, you're going to hit the floor eventually. And then you'll be out of combat and removed. Likely before you're done loading in after the respawn.

By all means, try it though. Such actions are going to look really really bad to a GM though. But ball is in your court, not mine.

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Vote kick on basis of not rolling on items? What if I don't want any of the items and simply don't bother to even check them - even less to press any buttons for them.

The party can kick you for whatever reason they want.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

We do. Did so the day before yesterday. Though the issue with that healer was they weren't pulling their own weight at all. They couldn't keep themselves alive. And on the second near failed attempt, they pulled the plug while loot was going and the boss was still alive. Thankfully a LB from me finished off the boss after the tank eventually went down. We had to wait 3 minutes because of this little trick of yours to get a replacement.

Judging by the response I got, the three minutes they wasted, cost them a bit longer. So yeah.. try your shenanigans. I'm not going to stop you. That's not my job to. There are those who are paid for it though. Your choice in the end.

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How do you know they "pulled the plug" and didn't just dc/internet died? cause from what you are saying the person could not keep themselves alive which could be because of lag.
When you use duty roulette you should expect to get people who are either not that good at the game or might have bad internet that act up every now and then, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

The party can kick you for whatever reason they want.

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Not really, they can "kick" for the reasons that in the options, which sadly get abused alot.

Or for differences in playstyle, stated by GMs in several occasions.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

If the "playstyle differences" was really a valid reason, the devs would have put it into the options when using the vote kick system a long time ago.

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Nah.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2358628

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

To begin, I have removed several posts commenting negatively about the company or the service itself, as well as a side discussion about the use of spell checking. Those suggestions have been heard, but take away from the concerns in this thread, which is a criticism of policy and confusion resulting from a message sent by a GM.

I have escalated several of the concerns with the messaging to the appropriate group for review and ways to improve their messaging to prevent confusion like this.

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

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Additionally, the OP in that thread contains the response from the GM establishing that playstyle differences are a valid kick reason. The only thing that constitutes griefing, at least as far as vote dismiss goes, is using it to prevent someone from completing content.
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg


If people disagree with SE's policy, by all means do so, but what's permitted is pretty well settled. If you want to argue it further, you're gonna have to convince SE that you know more about what they meant than they did.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Per SE, "playstyle differences" is a valid reason to kick someone from a group. At least half of the group thought you were a problem, so off you went.

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Not doing enough damage as a healer is not a "playstyle difference" though, is it? a difference of playstyle would involve something like the healer not wanting to heal during big pulls, or not wanting to speed run the dungeon when everyone else wants to etc, pretty sure if the OP is telling the truth then the people kicking him deserve punishment, especially purposfully kicking at the last boss.

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Originally Posted by Crasherino

Not doing enough damage as a healer is not a "playstyle difference" though, is it? a difference of playstyle would involve something like the healer not wanting to heal during big pulls, or not wanting to speed run the dungeon when everyone else wants to etc, pretty sure if the OP is telling the truth then the people kicking him deserve punishment, especially purposfully kicking at the last boss.

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TBH, if I see healer doing damage AND keeping me (and everyone else alive while at it), it's a bonus, but it's not their job though - if they do damage, that's ok (as long as they don't get anyone killed because of neglecting their REAL JOB). Aside that tho, as a tank, if healer feels confident enough to do dps willy nilly while everyone stays alive, it kinda makes me feel that I'm doing my part right by not having to be healed 24/7 and then some.

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Originally Posted by Crasherino

Not doing enough damage as a healer is not a "playstyle difference" though, is it? a difference of playstyle would involve something like the healer not wanting to heal during big pulls, or not wanting to speed run the dungeon when everyone else wants to etc, pretty sure if the OP is telling the truth then the people kicking him deserve punishment, especially purposfully kicking at the last boss.

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The point is more that it's such a vague statement that it's tantamount to SE telling us they're taking a really hands off approach to vote dismiss, so for all intents and purposes anything goes as long as you aren't a jerk about it.

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1. There is no legitimate way they could know how much damage he did

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This is laughably untrue.

Its pretty easy to tell exactly who is pulling their weight in a dungeon based on dots and debuffs on the mobs and cast bars. Also knowing roughly what each class provides damage-wise and how slow things are dying relative to that.

Here's a hint: If you dont see healer dots on anything or the healer casting damage abilities when you're not in danger of dying, theyre not pulling their weight.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Nah.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2358628






Additionally, the OP in that thread contains the response from the GM establishing that playstyle differences are a valid kick reason. The only thing that constitutes griefing, at least as far as vote dismiss goes, is using it to prevent someone from completing content.
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg


If people disagree with SE's policy, by all means do so, but what's permitted is pretty well settled. If you want to argue it further, you're gonna have to convince SE that you know more about what they meant than they did.

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1) The post you quote says clearly [the meaning] was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. In this context it means people in the thread overblown the meaning of kicking for 'different playstyle'.
2) The post you quote clarify you can kick someone for the refusal to fulfill one's job function. E.I.: refusing to tank as a tank, refusing to heal as a healer, refusing to play, etc.
3) Read the policy before affirming something: There's no pass on kicking someone for not playing a class optimally, but there's close for abusing the kick function.

On a side note: this thread date from 2014, went they had a "intervene the less possible" policy, policy that changed last year

Guys, dealing Damage as a Healer is NOT a requirement to NOT be kicked in a group. If you are a Elitist and you want to get through a Dungeon in record time, go in premade. If you need a random healer, deal with the random healer.

If something like this happens in a LAN party, you get kicked for being a douche - from the LAN party.

Just because you recently left WoW and came to FF XIV doesn't mean you gotta bring your toxic gaming behavior too.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

1) The post you quote says clearly [the meaning] was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. In this context it means people in the thread overblown the meaning of kicking for 'different playstyle'.
2) The post you quote clarify you can kick someone for the refusal to fulfill one's job function. E.I.: refusing to tank as a tank, refusing to heal as a healer, refusing to play, etc.
3) Read the policy before affirming something: There's no pass on kicking someone for not playing a class optimally, but there's close for abusing the kick function.

On a side note: this thread date from 2014, went they had a "intervene the less possible" policy, policy that changed last year

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This is entirely wishful thinking on your part and has no bearing on reality.

One point I specifically want to touch on is that the policy change last year didn't actually change anything with respect to vote dismiss. It's the same policy outlined in the GM's response that I linked, just worded slightly differently.

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Originally Posted by BatLW

Guys, dealing Damage as a Healer is NOT a requirement to NOT be kicked in a group. If you are a Elitist and you want to get through a Dungeon in record time, go in premade. If you need a random healer, deal with the random healer.

If something like this happens in a LAN party, you get kicked for being a douche - from the LAN party.

Just because you recently left WoW and came to FF XIV doesn't mean you gotta bring your toxic gaming behavior too.

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You seem fairly toxic yourself. Probs take a chill pill or three, m8.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

This is entirely wishful thinking on your part and has no bearing on reality.

One point I specifically want to touch on is that the policy change last year didn't actually change anything with respect to vote dismiss. It's the same policy outlined in the GM's response that I linked, just worded slightly differently.

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So you give me to give you the big bad NO U treatment?

... How is Kicking someone before a final boss not considered "Preventing them from completing content"?

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Originally Posted by Sartharina

... How is Kicking someone before a final boss not considered "Preventing them from completing content"?

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A kick at any point of a dungeon could be considered that. What it comes down to really is the circumstances which we don't know a whole lot about in the OP's case. Whether they deserved it or not is up for debate. First impressions though? I would say no, they did not, based solely on the information we were given. There is always 2 sides to every story though.

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Originally Posted by BatLW

Guys, dealing Damage as a Healer is NOT a requirement to NOT be kicked in a group. If you are a Elitist and you want to get through a Dungeon in record time, go in premade. If you need a random healer, deal with the random healer.

If something like this happens in a LAN party, you get kicked for being a douche - from the LAN party.

Just because you recently left WoW and came to FF XIV doesn't mean you gotta bring your toxic gaming behavior too.

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Never played WoW. However, it's not like the dungeons hit hard enough to warrant 100% healing time and 0% DPS time. Healer DPS is mitigation: things die faster and the tank takes less damage for it in the long run. Casting Holy on a pack of trash to stun them for ~7 seconds is infinitely more useful than spamming Cure I while the tank is at 95% HP.

No other role is allowed to stand around not doing anything half the time. Never understood the mentality that healers are a special exception. As long as they keep people alive, there's no reason for them to not DPS.


EDIT: Wow. I just saw your negative comments concerning Japan being a country that enjoys bullying people. Given that and how you stated you wanted names of the players responsible so that you could give them a piece of your mind... Somehow, I don't think the pro-healer DPS crowd are the toxic elitists in this thread.

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Originally Posted by BatLW

Guys, dealing Damage as a Healer is NOT a requirement to NOT be kicked in a group. If you are a Elitist and you want to get through a Dungeon in record time, go in premade. If you need a random healer, deal with the random healer.

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Nah. We're just going to pick a new healer from the queue.

Like I said, decision has been made. You can't change our minds. You can beg, plead, threaten, or even bribe but it won't change the fact we're going to dismiss these healers. Just a fact now. Its happening. I've gotten about four of them since this thread started. Probably get a few more this weekend.

If you want to be the 'light' in the darkness, make a PF listing that takes these healers in yourself. Because if they end up in our groups, they're getting dismissed. You can make personal attacks, calling people elitist, calling them rude, calling them bullies. It doesn't matter.

At the end of the day, you don't get a say in our decisions. That's for us to do. You can step aside.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Per SE, "playstyle differences" is a valid reason to kick someone from a group. At least half of the group thought you were a problem, so off you went.

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So it took them all up until the final boss for them to decide he wasn't good enough?
There is either more he's not telling us (which is likely) or they abused it and probably gonna be punished for it.
Two sides here and all.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

So it took them all up until the final boss for them to decide he wasn't good enough?
There is either more he's not telling us (which is likely) or they abused it and probably gonna be punished for it.
Two sides here and all.

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Well, you can't kick at the start of the dungeon, and I believe you can't kick while loot in being rolled on. So if you Kill a boss, don't roll on the loot, get to the 2nd chest after the 2nd and 3rd boss, the loot from those needs to be rolled on. So maybe just before the final boss was then the loot timers finally ran out. Just a thought, as i've seen trolls / griefers like to use loot vote kick immunity in 24 mans on occasion.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

An official but vague policy. Followed to the letter, you could even report people saying Hello to you because you felt offended by it.

Not to mention reality doesn't seem to reflect policy. People still keep kicking for differences in playstyle. People aren't getting punished for it.

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From the policy:

"・Improper expulsion voting

This means excluding another person by manipulation of expulsion voting.


・Intentional leaving or disconnection

This means obstructing another person's game play by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server."

So I can't kick the terribles out and I'm not allowed to leave to avoid the them? But this causes me great emotional distress and thus they are harassing me with their terribleness. I think we should report SE for stupid, contradictory policies.

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Originally Posted by Riblet

Well, you can't kick at the start of the dungeon, and I believe you can't kick while loot in being rolled on. So if you Kill a boss, don't roll on the loot, get to the 2nd chest after the 2nd and 3rd boss, the loot from those needs to be rolled on. So maybe just before the final boss was then the loot timers finally ran out. Just a thought, as i've seen trolls / griefers like to use loot vote kick immunity in 24 mans on occasion.

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If the run is going so great that, there is no spare time between each chest for rewards timer to wear off, then i dont see the problem here.

Some guys are getting wow-crazy about others performance.
Like, how much are they going to save if they kick the healer, if they are able to run from boss to boss in reasonable amount of time? Healer class is in demand it takes at least 3-4 minutes to find one willing to join dungeon in progress.
This kind of behaviour is petty, is lame, and people who do that should get a break from the game.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

If the "playstyle differences" was really a valid reason, the devs would have put it into the options when using the vote kick system a long time ago

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They probably don't want it being used any more than necessary. I mentioned that kicks rarely go through, but that's because there are many players that think using in that way can get them in trouble. If they added it as an option, it would be see more use and it would have invalid uses to go with it (kicking because of race, etc.)

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

Also tip to OP, just don't roll on items until the end of the dungeon or until the last few secs of the roll ( or when in combat with last boss )

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Being unable to remove a player at a given moment due to combat or loot does not remove the option to do it for the entire run and only delays it.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

Also why would it "look really really bad to a GM" no one are breaking any rules by not rolling on the item right away.

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Originally Posted by AniKai

Vote kick on basis of not rolling on items? What if I don't want any of the items and simply don't bother to even check them - even less to press any buttons for them.

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We simply will not engage if we suspect someone trying to avoid being dismissed for what they know to be shady actions worth dismissal over.

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A DPS can't pull mobs ahead of the tank after being told not to and evade a kick by not rolling on loot or entering combat.

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Originally Posted by AniKai

Now I know whom to vote-kick by default. People like you - even if I'm a tank or healer.

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Kicking a DPS that doesn't AoE and by extension healers or tanks that don't do their jobs - bad
Kicking someone because of what they said on an internet forum - good
Stay classy, Official Forum

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

The party can kick you for whatever reason they want.

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You can only kick for reasons that affect gameplay. You can't kick for job, race, glamour, name, to get loot, to invite a friend or to grief, among other reasons. Whether the GMs will punish for those reasons is another story. (Before someone brings up jobs affecting gameplay, it's impossible to have every job in your party. If you could kick based on job, there would no such thing as vote-kick abuse as you could just say you wanted whichever jobs weren't in the party at that time.)

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Originally Posted by Sartharina

... How is Kicking someone before a final boss not considered "Preventing them from completing content"?

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If the person to be dismissed prevented you from kicking earlier.

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Originally Posted by Sub-Xero

From the policy:
・Intentional leaving or disconnection

This means obstructing another person's game play by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server."

So I can't kick the terribles out and I'm not allowed to leave to avoid the them?

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You can leave, but only by using the option to do it, not by closing the game or disconnecting from the internet.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Encounters are NOT balanced around healer "dps", and the devs have stated this before. One could make a case for first-week savage clears (still not balanced around it. this is solely a player-base thing), but even that's pushing it.

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This is a little inaccurate. Encounters are designed around no healer dps when at gear level for that encounter (not min ilvl) and with most likely above average players. It was simply impossible to clear titan (and probably others) week 1 without healer dps. Even if you took the best parsed players (100 percentile) and put them in the same group and they all did a 100 percentile run at the same time you would still be short some.

The required gear for healer dps not to be required would be full tomestone gear with whatever augmentation and eden items you can unlock for that floor (from previous floors). And again, above average players and no deaths. In the real world this means healers need to dps for a while.

It usually goes like this: your party isn’t skilled enough to clear without healer dps? Then they clearly need healer dps. Your party is skilled enough to not need any healer dps? Then they will most likely expect you to play on their level of skill and want you to dps.
As far as savage is concerned there usually isn’t much room for no dps healers until much later in the tier (and in practice it usually only works out because at least one of the two healers is dpsing)

With that said. One shouldnt grieve other players. And on anything other than savage/ultimate it’s ridiculous to get upset with a healer for not doing dps. There could be any number of reasons why this would happen and none are kick worthy, especially not at the last boss.

I got kick after waiting 30 minutes in queue because server decided to kick me and then make me wait in queue for 5 minutes with queue of 4. That's not fair they kick you when wasn't your fault. Now have to start long time waiting again in another queue for dungeon you was in.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

I got kick after waiting 30 minutes in queue because server decided to kick me and then make me wait in queue for 5 minutes with queue of 4. That's not fair they kick you when wasn't your fault. Now have to start long time waiting again in another queue for dungeon you was in.

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But how do they know if you just dc'd because of server issues or your connection problems? Maybe your connection is going to be restored in few hours? Should they wait too?
You can only kick 5m after duty started. They waited for you, you didn't come back, they replaced you with someone else.

Kicking for difference in play style is not a valid reason to report someone. Just move on

The fact so many people here are so spiteful.

You got kicked, move on. How many dungeons have you run successfully? And you’re going to get caught up on this one?

You weren’t up to their standards and that’s the end of it.

Also these people asking for their names needs to get a life. What truly toxic people.

I like how everyone just sweeps it under as difference in play style, obviously there was no issue prior to the end boss. It's honestly nothing new as I have seen it before and the rough conversation went like this

*Vote kick DPS* I vote no and say why?
Silence, vote passes as its only 2 needed
New dps joins "Thanks ___!" "No problem friend!"

Granted I didn't know the guy who got kicked and just kept my mouth shut and didn't think to report as this was quite some time ago. As long as it looks "legit" to the chat log you can be as scummy as you want. In fact I am willing to bet a pretty gil that a fair amount of these people are discord friends with someone looking for a quick roulette finish so they kick a random, claim they suck, and get their friend in.

Now I admit, I may be ticked off but I'll live but imagine getting kicked trying to do your roulette before reset or something along those lines. It sucks, yes but not everyone is going to have a "Oh well, better luck next time" attitude towards it.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

So it took them all up until the final boss for them to decide he wasn't good enough?
There is either more he's not telling us (which is likely) or they abused it and probably gonna be punished for it.
Two sides here and all.

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I kicked a RDM a couple of weeks ago for being generally unpleasant. They got kicked right before the last boss because they were there with their tank friend and that just happened to be the first opportunity to kick them because the loot had sat there unrolled on the rest of the run.