Customizable pronouns

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

This is true normally I struggle with the whole pronoun thing mostly because I am an old fart, With the pixies it was very normal (Maybe because they were pixies and gender neutral fae is kinda familiar to me). Now I just need a gender neutral term for waifu becuause I think I'm in love with Feo Ul!

But on topic. I feel like the logistics of doing such a thing would be incredible. I mean I guess technically you could at character creation have a drop down to choose gender. Male, Female, not specified, kinda thing. But then ALL the voice acting through out the game would have to change and the text and god knows what else.

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I just call them my adorable branch like how they refer to themselves sometimes.

Again, unless they really screwed the pooch on implementing gender as is, the work is not unfeasible. They don't need to update the voice acting. I mostly just want the text updated.

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Originally Posted by Akonyl

fwiw, I was 100% on board with the gender neutral pixies thing, but in the retainer text our adorable branch/feo ul refers to themselves as a "she" so I'm not entirely sure what their deal is wrt gender. Possible it's just a translation mishap though, since people probably aren't checking retainer text much.

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I suspect it was an oversight or perhaps just an affectation they use when talking to mortals.

It was my understanding that the pixies had no gender so how they refer to themselves is purely choice, as opposed to humanoid type characters in the game that actually are either female or male no inbetween. Not to say there can't be but the game seems to be built around genders unless there are specific exceptions.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

It's allowing one variable set to be changed, a variable that's clearly already in the game. The work needed for this wouldn't delay anything.

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And here's where you give away how little you know about code.

Gender in this game is coded as a true/false switch. It can only have two values. Every single dialogue that checks the WoL's gender goes "if gender = 1 return 'she' else 'he'". And there are thousands of these checks of this variable. Tens of thousands. Possibly even hundreds of thousands when you consider gendered languages like French where every verb and adjective that refers to the WoL is another check of that variable.

Changing the variable from a true/false to something with 3-4 possible values (0 he, 1 she, 2 they, 3 custom) is a monumental enough undertaking. Then they'd need to add a line to the player "object" to store your custom pronouns. THEN they have to alter every bit of code that loads or refers to the player object to teach it all not to crash when they find more variables than expected and variables of the wrong type. THEN they have to go through every single one of those dialogue switches and recode them to have double the options.

No. It would be a huge delay that would only interest a tiny portion of the playerbase for a change that isn't even consistent with the game's lore (your WoL is not a fae). Might it have been nice to have from the start? Sure. But it's too large an undertaking for the established code, and you shouldn't claim it's easy and delay free without knowing how the dialogue and variables even work.

In terms of logistics, one major problem is that adding a nonbinary gender option means adding another set of voice tracks. Not just going forward, but going back as well. Even if they only redo the lines where the WoL is referred to in gendered terms, that's still a lot of work that just isn't in the budget. And then there's ARR voices, since they're not using the same studio or actors anymore. I'm not against the idea, but unfortunately it's very unlikely to happen.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

In terms of logistics, one major problem is that adding a nonbinary gender option means adding another set of voice tracks. Not just going forward, but going back as well. Even if they only redo the lines where the WoL is referred to in gendered terms, that's still a lot of work that just isn't in the budget. And then there's ARR voices, since they're not using the same studio or actors anymore. I'm not against the idea, but unfortunately it's very unlikely to happen.

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That’s a really good point there. Maybe they could compromise and just change the text versions of pronouns instead, it would definitely be far less costly and resource draining than trying to do more voice-overs. Thank you for actually making a good argument that doesn’t just equate to “Most people don’t know/like this, stop asking for inclusivity and suck it up buttercup”. It’s refreshing to see some real constructive dialogue.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

In terms of logistics, one major problem is that adding a nonbinary gender option means adding another set of voice tracks. Not just going forward, but going back as well. Even if they only redo the lines where the WoL is referred to in gendered terms, that's still a lot of work that just isn't in the budget. And then there's ARR voices, since they're not using the same studio or actors anymore. I'm not against the idea, but unfortunately it's very unlikely to happen.

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This pretty much sums up the sad reality of it all. Adding inclusive options like OP suggested really only gets implemented easily at the start of a project, we're talking almost 10 years of content needing to be updated. It would be nice to have but ultimately the best you can do is just continue on as you would normally.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Problem is, this is a touchy subject that many view as a mental illness. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant but to give better understanding to you. Imagine if people were trying to call aultism normal, you might get taken aback and think clearly its a mental illness, therefore it'd be bad to normalize it. That's how a lotta people view nonbinary talk.

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Possibly not the best example, as autism/Aspergers is not a "mental illness" (implying that it is something 'not part' of the person that needs to be cured). For me it's an intrinsic part of how my brain works, and I don't think I'd be me without it.

We absolutely should be normalising that some people are not "normal", but neither they nor society are worse off for it.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

This pretty much sums up the sad reality of it all. Adding inclusive options like OP suggested really only gets implemented easily at the start of a project, we're talking almost 10 years of content needing to be updated. It would be nice to have but ultimately the best you can do is just continue on as you would normally.

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Sad as it is you’re most likely right. Even if it’s extremely unlikely to be implemented it’s still just a big deal even to ask for it these days. While it’s a common meme that we live in this SJW Orwellian nightmare, the reality is even just making these sorts of posts opens people up to a lot of intense scrutiny and ridicule. Just having the dialogue open and civil is amazing by itself!

It's something I wouldn't mind seeing but probably not worth the time for the devs to do. It may seem simple but the spaghetti code may not be that easy to work with. For example, and we don't know how easy or hard it would be to go back through the game's code and add this in places.

I meant what said, and said what I meant. Whether it is taken as callousness has little to do with how I feel on it. If SE deems it worth the effort, then fine. But it's very highly unlikely, as there ARE more important things to be done for the game now and for the future than changing text which is linked to a very many things as someone else said. voice lines, gender recognition in cutscenes, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

I haven’t heard of non-binary being a mental illness? Gender-neutral identities and styles does not equal having a mental illness at all, that’s a bit of a spurious claim and also a bit insulting if you don’t have the evidence to back that up, except general anecdotes.

Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosable condition but it gets very murky around the edges when concerning non-binary identities. It’s usually a lot more clear cut in many cases with trans-men/women, but there’s still a conversation to be had regarding non-binary people I think. However I don’t think that’s a conversation we should be having on a game forum. This thread and OP was about simply asking for a more neutral option regarding pronouns, just like how the Pixies used, showing they’re aware of gender-neutrality and therefore opening the discussion up for it being available for us.

Once people start asking for “autism” related pronouns in the game then that’s something else entirely... but I have a feeling that’s not gonna happen.

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I said people view it as a mental illness because that's been my exposure to it so different walks of life, most people ive seen talk about rarely is it positive. And I understand what they are asking for, but Japan is the most "non inclusive" place ever as far as social change. They do what they want, and that's that. The odds of it happening are so slim it just isn't a good idea to bring up the topic on an online forum.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Possibly not the best example, as autism/Aspergers is not a "mental illness"

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It is recognized as a mental illness (Specifically a developmental disorder treated with therapy and psychotropics) by every single psychiatric organization in the world.

As is gender dysphoria, as an aside.

I recognise the need, but it's very unlikely this will happen. But hey, Cyberpunk and will allow you to do this. But in a game like this where gender is indeed wrapped into very old code, very unlikely. We've seen this when the Hrothgar incident happened, where the french version was showing parts of the code for male and female that would flag a certain response. So this would require going through every single convo flag and editing it accordingly.

This also doesn't work seeing as we have races where genders are missing entirely, so you won't even be able to pick your body type. This is just a can of worms that shouldn't be opened when we have gender lock races and even then, it probably shouldn't be opened.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

I said people view it as a mental illness because that's been my exposure to it so different walks of life, most people ive seen talk about rarely is it positive. And I understand what they are asking for, but Japan is the most "non inclusive" place ever as far as social change. They do what they want, and that's that. The odds of it happening are so slim it just isn't a good idea to bring up the topic on an online forum.

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Well, a few decades ago (and even today in some countries), being gay is seen/classed as a mental illness, but that’s a pretty ridiculous thing to assume in most developed societies nowadays. Sexuality and identity are different yeah, but if you can’t convince someone that being gay or bi or whatever isn’t a choice/illness then yeah we got no chance at all of convincing those same people of different identities. You may think it’s not a good idea to bring it up, but it’s always worth talking about something that’s not understood much, how else will it ever be more understood if it’s not an idea that’s applied to most mediums of conversation you know? They have gay marriage in this game, so that kind of contradicts your message about Japan’s noninclusivity. If we set them up for failure before they even try to adopt change, then yeah, there really is no point.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

It is recognized as a mental illness (Specifically a developmental disorder treated with therapy and psychotropics) by every single psychiatric organization in the world.

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It's considered a mental disorder. That's not the same thing as an illness.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

It is recognized as a mental illness (Specifically a developmental disorder treated with therapy and psychotropics) by every single psychiatric organization in the world.

As is gender dysphoria, as an aside.

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Thank you my potatoe shaped friend lol. I have aultism myself and I myself deal with the issue's. I'm not normal, I have a illness. I just don't care! If people accept me fine, if not idc. I'm not gonna demand SE let me make my wol autistic as a result. Be happy with who you are, but don't expect the entire world to conform to your needs I say.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's a mental disorder. That's not the same thing as an illness.

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The two are interchangeable these days, to the point that the differences are usually built upon the origin of the issue. But eh, both are considered as an abnormality for good health.

All this forced "inclusion" is getting way too strong in videogames, lately all games have a highly forced "inclusive" character which the biggest aspect of characterization and lore surrounding it is the "inclusive" part.
And no, it's not because they're "badly done", it's simply because the specification forced in means so little that the only way for it to be seen is making it be constantly in the spotlight.
Final Fantasy XIV has it's own world, with it's own inhabitants and in it's lore and foundations. There are no such things as "nonbinary", they're just what they are and we shouldn't transgress the rules of OUR world into THEIR world, period.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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I glanced over, thought to stay silent...

Then i realize I'd be really peeved if wedding would have been made gender restricted.

You go trailblazer, don't let the naysayer discourage you

But the question is, how is OP putting forward a solution for this to be done? Seeing as all of the local language teams will need to edit every single piece of code that has a 'yes/no' flag regarding gender. This needs to be considered. Or how would this even work in different languages where they don't tend to use certain pronouns? I'm seeing a want, but I'm not seeing a lot of acknowledgement to the basic logic which is the code itself. And more of a 'my inclusion' social movement type of thing going.

Like, I can't take anyone seriously until they acknowledge the major issue is the code itself. And what they're asking for is hours upon hours of work for something they're just going to see. Remember that even if this was added, people are more than likely not going to call you by your pronoun. So, wouldn't that just completely nullify it? So all this would do is give a very small amount of players acknowledgement of their different pronouns, in the text which will soon be shattered because someone in your party or around you will call you 'he/she' anyway because your avatar has no in-between.

I need a citation for them programming in gender as a binary flag in this game because honestly, that's a ridiculous and resource-intensive way to go about it vs just defining a variable and calling that.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I need a citation for them programming in gender as a binary flag in this game because honestly, that's a ridiculous and resource-intensive way to go about it vs just defining a variable and calling that.

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Google 'what's a hrothgar', check the first result which should be on reddit. You will see a huge thread that shows the code. Where male and female flags exist throughout the entire code for dialogue.

https://i.redd.it/xre7d6dnl7g21.jpg Here is an example of it. As you can see, the code does a check regarding your gender, such as 'le' and 'la'.
Here is another example; https://i.imgur.com/4JgffXR.png
Basically, all of this would need to be rewritten to include this, and there's a lot of it throughout this game.

Here's my totally controversial stance:

Sure, why not.

The biggest hurdle is recorded dialogue. Custom pronouns would not appear there. Already recorded dialogue for old content would not reflect they/them.

But gender neutral pronouns as an option for more current content? Sure.

Localization teams might have it rough, though, since some languages are gendered (see for example: All romance languages)

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Originally Posted by Barraind

It is recognized as a mental illness (Specifically a developmental disorder treated with therapy and psychotropics) by every single psychiatric organization in the world.

As is gender dysphoria, as an aside.

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Because of the way the medical system is set up, having a diagnosis is required for treatment. That's the only reason gender dysphoria is in there. If you read the definition of it in the newest DSM, that's fairly clear because recommended treatment is social and medical transition. Until transitioning is treated less like a formal medical process and more like body modification, it's gonna stay that way. The APA and medical organizations have come out explicitly stating being transgender is not a mental illness and there's nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I need a citation for them programming in gender as a binary flag in this game because honestly, that's a ridiculous and resource-intensive way to go about it vs just defining a variable and calling that.

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Why would a boolean be resource intensive compared to anything else as an option?

I have no idea what the variable type is, I had just thought it was just an integer but then reading other posts figured.. not really necessary at the time of creating the game to be an integer because why for? So it probably is a boolean now that I think about it more lol.

Obviously at this point it being an integer could help with the request (gender = 5) but then we'd still have structure problems in the sentences and likely different problems in different languages (like some words need more than just the pronoun changed to sound right, for example they in English sometimes sounds a lot better with tweaks to the rest of the sentence and cannot just be plopped in simply).

Basically, I wouldn't get offended and insulted if this wasn't added in regards to the devs; no bigotry here or anything of the sort. Just like with the missing genders, it's probably not plausible at this time - or ever. It's just how they set up their parameters.

Big waste of time, because they would have to voice act all the "her" and "him" 's going forward with these "pronouns"
if it really bothers you just roleplay it the way you want, rather than waste dev time/resources

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Thank you my potatoe shaped friend lol. I have aultism myself and I myself deal with the issue's. I'm not normal, I have a illness. I just don't care! If people accept me fine, if not idc. I'm not gonna demand SE let me make my wol autistic as a result. Be happy with who you are, but don't expect the entire world to conform to your needs I say.

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That’s great and all that you can embrace your illness, but it’s a total non sequitur in this. We’re not likening identities or pronouns to autism, they’re two entirely different things, so it’s not really making sense in regards to this thread. The crucial difference you’re overlooking is that there is no set precedence for using autism related pronouns or such and that subsequent supposed impact on your life or gaming. Unlike identities, no one in the game is constantly calling you autistic or anything even remotely related to it in game. Unlike gender, which permeates the game as discussed:

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Google 'what's a hrothgar', check the first result which should be on reddit. You will see a huge thread that shows the code. Where male and female flags exist throughout the entire code for dialogue.

https://i.redd.it/xre7d6dnl7g21.jpg Here is an example of it. As you can see, the code does a check regarding your gender, such as 'le' and 'la'.
Here is another example; https://i.imgur.com/4JgffXR.png
Basically, all of this would need to be rewritten to include this, and there's a lot of it throughout this game.

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Ah, French localization. They gender everything. Indeed, it would be a localization challenge and for that, they could keep the same overly complicated gender deal going. Given that it's in French, I'm not going to take that as definitive evidence they program it this way globally. If they do, lol.

Still doesn't change my suggestion. Even some French people are nonbinary. They might appreciate having some agency other than modifying character appearance in terms of pronouns.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Why would a boolean be resource intensive compared to anything else as an option?

I have no idea what the variable type is, I had just thought it was just an integer but then reading other posts figured.. not really necessary at the time of creating the game to be an integer because why for? So it probably is a boolean now that I think about it more lol.

Obviously at this point it being an integer could help with the request (gender = 5) but then we'd still have structure problems in the sentences and likely different problems in different languages (like some words need more than just the pronoun changed to sound right, for example they in English sometimes sounds a lot better with tweaks to the rest of the sentence and cannot just be plopped in simply).

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One call to a database vs having the game individually test each case every time.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I need a citation for them programming in gender as a binary flag in this game because honestly, that's a ridiculous and resource-intensive way to go about it vs just defining a variable and calling that.

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Wrong on so many levels. I can't cite first-hand knowledge nor tell you how to gain that knowledge on the OF, but all you have to do is crack open the dialogue files and look for yourself to see all the checks. You'll see lines like "Flattery will get you nowhere, {if(5) (my dear) else (dear boy)}!" EVERYWHERE.

And if you think that's resource intensive, it's because you're only considering he/she and him/her. Yes, if those were the only gender references in our dialogue, storing them as customizable plaintext would be a good idea. But it's not, and that you think it is shows your shortsightedness.

We are called madam or ma'am and sir. Milady, milord, lady surname, lord surname. Boy and girl. Lad and lass. Some angry NPCs pick one of two b-words to describe the WoL, and several others use the gender switch to change whole sentences around to either flirt with the WoL or treat them with aloofness. For example, one popular NPC will openly confess to a female WoL that he is "quite taken with" her around level ~18. A different class quest NPC will invite a female WoL to have a drink while telling a male WoL to go away and stop scaring off the ladies.

And again, you're ignoring the other languages, where you're the "{if(5) (Guerriere) else (Guerrier)} de tenebres." Half the sentence gets gendered if it's referring to your character.

Storing gendered language as customizable plaintext is on no planet a less resource-intensive solution than a boolean variable.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

That’s great and all that you can embrace your illness, but it’s a total non sequitur in this. We’re not likening identities or pronouns to autism, they’re two entirely different things, so it’s not really making sense in regards to this thread. The crucial difference you’re overlooking is that there is no set precedence for using autism related pronouns or such and that subsequent supposed impact on your life or gaming. Unlike identities, no one in the game is constantly calling you autistic or anything even remotely related to it in game. Unlike gender, which permeates the game as discussed:

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Actually, haha, some pronouns are autism-related, not sure how they made them - blame Tumblr. There are pronouns for everything these days. Some will argue why should your pronoun trump there's? Where is their inclusion? Heck, I've seen people who have pronouns that are related to their kins, to pokemon, to colours - etc. I had one person who used 'Feyself' as a pronoun because they thought they were a fairy, and yes, they were serious.

Where will you draw the line?

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Ah, French localisation. They gender everything. Indeed, it would be a localization challenge and for that, they could keep the same overly complicated gender deal going. Given that it's in French, I'm not going to take that as definitive evidence they program it this way globally. If they do, lol.

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It's not just french. Like there's plenty of times in this game where we're called 'Lad/Lass' or 'Sir/Madam' you can't ignore this. It's rather extensive in the English versions, especially since FF14 is set in a medieval fantasy type world, where people are big on titles that coincide with your gender sometimes.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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I would personally like this, but I think that considering it would likely cost quite a few resources it isnt thta necessary, and I'd encourage you to take it asa character you are lookign at and not yourself ^^

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

One call to a database vs having the game individually test each case every time.

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Could just be one call to check if you're male or female too though (1=yes, 0=no; 1=male, 0=female). A variable of a space of two would certainly be simpler and less resource intensive than a variable larger than a space of two.

Edit: oh I see what you meant, I was already thinking you'd have to test cases no matter what so "how would having anything larger than 2 be possibly better?" (in terms of efficiency) lol. But you were thinking more like if the system didn't work as it did, I think Harmonea did a good job explaining how it probably isn't that way (because of so many ways each language can and does say things).

Also actually how they coded it if Harmonea's example is real like (structure wise) then the amount of work to add more genders is so much more than I had thought which was already quite a bit (because the structure doesn't really promote for an easy change). If I paid more attention to those French leaks that'd help here hahah, but I didn't because I was like "I can't read french anyways, important detail is Hrothgar - yeet!" lol.

The voice actors already use male or female pronouns when referring to you

You may be gender neutral or have a non binary gender irl, but this is Hydaelyn, not Earth.

/thread

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Actually, haha, some pronouns are autism-related, not sure how they made them - blame Tumblr. There are pronouns for everything these days. Some will argue why should your pronoun trump there's? Where is their inclusion? Heck, I've seen people who have pronouns that are related to their kins, to pokemon, to colours - etc. I had one person who used 'Feyself' as a pronoun because they thought they were a fairy, and yes, they were serious.

Where will you draw the line?

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That’s a bit of a scare-mongering tactic though, since it’s one thing to observe non binary and gender non conforming identities that have been observed for a long time, and then the rabies-sexuals and autism-gender, which have very little (to literally NO) traction in the real world outside of some bizarre tumblr pages. That is not a conversation to be had here, once you start seeing rabies threads and nebula-pronoun threads then you can argue that as much as you please, but that’s probably not gonna happen. So far the points you’ve made are essentially just anecdotes of the truly fringe and often parody “identities” as proof of this being a bottomless well of no return, even if we just observe gender neutral pronouns. I’m not really buying it, the line in this thread has been drawn at non-binary and gender non conforming.

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Originally Posted by Final-Fantasy

I'm a Cat, in real life too, because I SAID SO.


You must now edit all dialogue and voice acted scenes to make me feel special.


Love,
Purrs-A-Lot

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Hilarious, are you also an attack helicopter? Bet it took you a while to come up with that once /s

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

That’s a bit of a scare-mongering tactic though, since it’s one thing to observe non binary and gender non conforming identities that have been observed for a long time, and then the rabies-sexuals and autism-gender, which have very little (to literally NO) traction in the real world outside of some bizarre tumblr pages. That is not a conversation to be had here, once you start seeing rabies threads and nebula-pronoun threads then you can argue that as much as you please, but that’s probably not gonna happen. So far the points you’ve made are essentially just anecdotes of the truly fringe and often parody “identities” as proof of this being a bottomless well of no return, even if we just observe gender neutral pronouns. I’m not really buying it, the line in this thread has been drawn at non-binary and gender non conforming.

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How is it a scare tactic when it's the truth. You did not state which genders are to be chosen. You can't stomp your feet and go 'no, you can't bring those up' when we both know said people are also in this community. Nor can you act like I'm being an arse for bringing it up. Draw a line. Simple.

You can then deal with the people who have those weird tumblr pronouns and say how you don't agree with them and have a proper discussion. Far as I'm concerned those are mentally ill individuals, just like gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can often result in adverse effects on one's mental state, even after going through various treatments to align with the sex they desire. And the argument for this is that society doesn't make room for them, yet this does nothing to aid in that plight. All it does is show you personally that pronoun change - it does not show anyone else outside what your pronoun is, so they're just going to say the wrong pronoun anyway. That's what happens when your avatar is either male or female and has no in-between.

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Originally Posted by Paige404

Correction: non-binary genders are new to you, and several games have been explicitly inclusive in this regard for years.



literally no one accused Squenix of this but okay

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Why are you trying to pick a fight where there isn't one? I understand that its been around for a while but the fact of the matter is, it has not been mainstream until the last couple decades. Stop being a little troll and understand context.

I'm a computer IRL. I would love if they made everything binary.

I'll keep going with my stance.
Why are you trying to force stuff of our world into the game's world?
Do you have so little respect for other cultures? This attitude reminds me of America's Colonization.