Burnt out of the healer BS

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

The saddest part about all of this? I’m already seeing people telling others to not complain as changes will be made in 6.0.

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Lmao. "Why complain, there's a slight chance in 2 years the class could change for the better"

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Lmao. "Why complain, there's a slight chance in 2 years the class could change for the better"

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Well, welcome to what people told WHM for 4 years. Feels bad going through that bs, doesn't it?

Doesn't mean, as I said, nothing has to change for AST, but jfc, the double standard if something negatively impacts WHM vs. AST/SCH...

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Fun fact:
A SCH or AST providing no pDPS because they need to heal full time still provides more DPS to the group than a WHM providing no pDPS because they need to heal full time. Why? Because the WHM doesn't have ANY DPS utility outside their own DPS, in contrast to AST and SCH who do provide some. Also, from my experience, a SCH got a far easier time upholding their DPS in healing intensive parties than a WHM does. Because it's as Exiled_Tonberry says, almost everything WHM does is tied to the GCD. It's at a point where I struggle to even find anything to weave into a Lily or Regen at times because it feels like there simply aren't enough options. That's why I think at least Misery should be taken off the GCD...

Yes, AST needs to be pushed a little, they really are a bit behind the others. But anyone believing SCH needs a massive buff, as I've seen people claim, needs to get their heads checked. As do people who think adding a second DoT will massively, magically make healer DPS more engaging.

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While the things you say are definitely not wrong. Under those exact conditions sch would bring more rdps then a whm. But realistically how often does this really happen unless the healer decides to not use dps spells?
Also I am not fully sure I agree with whm having a difficult time to keep up a steady dps. I have healed every fight in this expansion as a SCH, AST and WHM. Keeping up with dps around 4k on WHM seemed really easy compared to the other jobs even in fights where people needed "constant" rezzes or saves.

But even so don't get me wrong I am not advocating for WHMs to get nerfed. And I am not for SCH getting massive buffs. From a healing standpoint they're more than fine. Boring? Yes. But weak? Heck no.
AST is the only healer who is functional but still gutted from what the class was before on top of a now ruined identity.

So far, I'm finding white mage enjoyable, holy spam aside. Scholar feels a bit dull to dps with. Keep in mind my scholar is in the 50s so combat so far is miasma, broil, broil, broil.

I dont think healers need full rotations but another skill or two to give the player something to consider using would do wonders. Like giving scholar a target aoe heal (similar to cure 3) that harms enemies in the effect could be a good move.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

While the things you say are definitely not wrong. Under those exact conditions sch would bring more rdps then a whm. But realistically how often does this really happen unless the healer decides to not use dps spells?

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What an interesting question. It happens all the time, because that is the core mechanic of WHM: deciding whether to use a DPS spell or a healing spell.

So the answer is that it is already happening. At the 75th percentile on Titan, WHM averages a 358 pDPS advantage over SCH; raid DPS at the same level is around 56k. So WHM's pDPS advantage is about 0.64% of rDPS. Surprise! That's half of what the gap is on Innocence, which is what everyone has been using as the reference point when arguing for SCH buffs. And this is a story mode raid.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Well, welcome to what people told WHM for 4 years. Feels bad going through that bs, doesn't it?

Doesn't mean, as I said, nothing has to change for AST, but jfc, the double standard if something negatively impacts WHM vs. AST/SCH...

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WHM need to stop having a victim complex...I swear to god...

Look, I get that WHM has had a tough road over the years. But the answer is not for one healer to reign supreme. It’s perfectly fine for WHM to be kind of pDPS if they’re not going to get a rDPS utility. But at the same time, the design goal should be to make ALL of the healers compelling choices. And this means ensuring that each healer’s combined personal and raid DPS contribution is similar enough across the three.

Maybe WHM gets terrible at lv80 but it seems fine so far, probably better than SB.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Fun fact:
A SCH or AST providing no pDPS because they need to heal full time still provides more DPS to the group than a WHM providing no pDPS because they need to heal full time. Why? Because the WHM doesn't have ANY DPS utility outside their own DPS, in contrast to AST and SCH who do provide some. Also, from my experience, a SCH got a far easier time upholding their DPS in healing intensive parties than a WHM does. Because it's as Exiled_Tonberry says, almost everything WHM does is tied to the GCD. It's at a point where I struggle to even find anything to weave into a Lily or Regen at times because it feels like there simply aren't enough options. That's why I think at least Misery should be taken off the GCD...

Yes, AST needs to be pushed a little, they really are a bit behind the others. But anyone believing SCH needs a massive buff, as I've seen people claim, needs to get their heads checked. As do people who think adding a second DoT will massively, magically make healer DPS more engaging.

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Doubtful as far as AST is concerned. The reason being is that an AST healing full time has no time for cards and with no time for cards means not only is their pDPS tanking the floor so is the rDPS buffs they provide and they have to spend twice as many GCDs to achieve similar effectiveness to a WHM spending one GCD.

Whereas WHM has the throughput to create moments where it can throw in DPS, not to mention it has a lot more high power emergency options then AST does. It takes a lot to prevent a WHM from being able to throw out DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

WHM need to stop having a victim complex...I swear to god...

Look, I get that WHM has had a tough road over the years. But the answer is not for one healer to reign supreme. It’s perfectly fine for WHM to be kind of pDPS if they’re not going to get a rDPS utility. But at the same time, the design goal should be to make ALL of the healers compelling choices. And this means ensuring that each healer’s combined personal and raid DPS contribution is similar enough across the three.

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Victim complex, my ass... so my experiences over the past few years mean nothing, yes?
I was told "WHM is fine!" when we had our job identity utterly destroyed in HW, or when we lost half of our toolkit in StB, either to the damned role skill system or forever (or to get the same skill handed back with a shiny new animation and a bow on top...). We most definitely weren't fine. We had none of our big issues fixed, and people only ever considered a WHM for the first few weeks of a raid content (and not even then during the last) before putting them back on a shelf. I was told "it's just QoL, stop complaining!" when AST got their cast-time buff that pushed them past WHM pDPS, which caused them to not even be considered for progress during the last raid tier in many cases. People tried to outright bully me into playing AST because it was just plain better.

THAT is what I mean by double standard. You people only care if YOU are the ones negatively impacted; if WHM is, who even gives a flying f**k, it's just WHM anyway.

BTW, I was also one of the people who always said, and still says, healers should be balanced and none of them should stand on top of the others. I don't want any of them to lag behind, I want them on part. Meaning that right now, AST needs a bit of love, while the balance between WHM and SCH is rather good, like it or not. Also, you conveniently seem to forget that WHM is still pretty immobile when it comes to DPS and will be the one out of the three dropping the most DPS GCDs for healing, lowering their raid contribution significantly, while SCH and AST got something else they can do to contribute. SCH also, as I said before, got a far easier time holding up their DPS due to their many instant oGCD heals compared to WHM who almost always needs to drop DPS for healing, meaning they will close the gap in harder content. So content that is not p**s-easy Primals like we saw so far. You already feel the DPS drop going into normal Eden; you will feel it even more in Savage.

Also, sorry that YOU hate the new SCH, but I personally don't think it feels as bad as you make it out to be, and I literally just a few moments ago had someone asking me why the heck people claim SCH feels bad, since it doesn't. That person is a HC-raider who will also play SCH in savage and ultimate, and did so before. So, sucks that you don't like what they did, but you know, others do; and they did the same with WHM several times now and people like you never batted an eye. Which is why it feels like a slap in the face coupled with a knee to the groin reading you complain now and jumping down everyone's throats for not agreeing. The very same people who told WHMs to 'stop whining' for years now are now complaining about the same stuff as before... well, maybe had you showed some compassion in the past, you might get some back now.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

BTW, I was also one of the people who always said, and still says, healers should be balanced and none of them should stand on top of the others. I don't want any of them to lag behind, I want them on part. Meaning that right now, AST needs a bit of love, while the balance between WHM and SCH is rather good, like it or not.

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So instead of bringing up the class lagging behind to the standards of the other healers, it's better to balance by making the others worse? So AST doesnt need potency buffs, instead WHM/SCH should be nerfed until they're at AST's level, according to balance.

Glad to see your friend likes new SCH, but I've met people, of all skill levels, that cant stand scholar, look at all the threads on here, and must people have the same complaints. We're not even upset over effectiveness or about being nerfed, just what we HAVE to do. I dont know who wants to spam 1 button all day, but most people I know like to press several buttons.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

So instead of bringing up the class lagging behind to the standards of the other healers, it's better to balance by making the others worse? So AST doesnt need potency buffs, instead WHM/SCH should be nerfed until they're at AST's level, according to balance.

Glad to see your friend likes new SCH, but I've met people, of all skill levels, that cant stand scholar, look at all the threads on here, and must people have the same complaints. We're not even upset over effectiveness or about being nerfed, just what we HAVE to do. I dont know who wants to spam 1 button all day, but most people I know like to press several buttons.

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When the frick did I say that?
I said from the very beginning that WHM needs to be brought up, not the others down. Well, maybe SCH a bit, because dear lord was it OP for a majority of the game and it still continues to be pretty bonkers if you want to see it or not. Btw, WHM also lost a DoT, which apparently is a huge issue for SCH (but not WHM smh) and which was a pretty important one to boot, but, hey... guess that doesn't count at all.

I'm honestly tired of having words put into my mouth...

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

So instead of bringing up the class lagging behind to the standards of the other healers, it's better to balance by making the others worse? So AST doesnt need potency buffs, instead WHM/SCH should be nerfed until they're at AST's level, according to balance.

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No, we should nerf AST so hard it loops back around to being OP. Sort of like Ghandi being so peaceful he ends up nuking everyone in Civ.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Victim complex, my ass...

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Oh boy the baseless assumptions are a flowing! You seem to imply here that anyone who's not been a WHM somehow has it out against your class, when in reality:

1. I remember plenty of vocal ASTs and SCHs over the years frustrated with SE's seeming inability to keep WHM relevant to groups and, particularly in the lead up to Stormblood, were vocal in calling out the dev's inane design with lilies.

2. Of those telling people to "calm down and shut up" there were quite a few self proclaimed WHM mains who were unwilling to listen to the feedback people were given on why the design wasn't working.

The different healer jobs are not opposing factions in some war for dominance. So maybe stop assuming that anyone that doesn't play your class is some bad actor out to get you. It's the mentality of a child that ironically only serves to drive people away from your ideals.

As for your last point: So just because you know someone (real or not) that feels differently, everyone else's opinion is just invalid now? Did you even bother to ask what exactly they like about this iteration versus previous versions of SCH? For all I know, they may be the kind of player that just enjoys playing something easy and/or overpowered...which is certainly how healing has become with SCH's "a tool for every situation" kit. For past SCHs that want some depth with the class, this opinion does nothing to counter their arguments because they're from completely different mindsets.

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Originally Posted by fantasticm

No, we should nerf AST so hard it loops back around to being OP. Sort of like Ghandi being so peaceful he ends up nuking everyone in Civ.

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Maybe at some point the potency nerfs become so extreme that AST's spells do damage instead. New caster class, please look forward to it.

I have been thoroughly enjoying SCH, my first job to 80. WHM is also a lot of fun. Not played AST much because I didn't enjoy constantly trying to get Balance but even that is more my cup of tea now. I'm a legacy player, been around since 1.0 beta, and I'm fine with the place healers are at.

I understand that you're not, OP, but in the end it's a matter of opinion about what's enjoyable. Folks in my FC and cross world linkshell are enjoying their healers too so I'm inclined to think the forum outrage isn't as widespread throughout the player base as you seem to think. Again, just my opinion of course. But if other people enjoy something you don't, that doesn't make them right and you wrong. However it doesn't make you right and them wrong either. It just makes you and them different.

I'd quite like my aetherflows back as they were but to be honest I've gotten used to it, and it's fine.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I have been thoroughly enjoying SCH, my first job to 80. WHM is also a lot of fun. Not played AST much because I didn't enjoy constantly trying to get Balance but even that is more my cup of tea now. I'm a legacy player, been around since 1.0 beta, and I'm fine with the place healers are at.

I understand that you're not, OP, but in the end it's a matter of opinion about what's enjoyable. Folks in my FC and cross world linkshell are enjoying their healers too so I'm inclined to think the forum outrage isn't as widespread throughout the player base as you seem to think. Again, just my opinion of course. But if other people enjoy something you don't, that doesn't make them right and you wrong. However it doesn't make you right and them wrong either. It just makes you and them different.

I'd quite like my aetherflows back as they were but to be honest I've gotten used to it, and it's fine.

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Could you go into specifics of what you like about this iteration relative to the last? Not looking to be combative, mainly trying to see what makes you happy about the current state of the job.

How to please SCH players base
Split Biolysis on 4 different dots for the exact same potency/min benefit.

job fixed

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

How to please SCH players base
Split Biolysis on 4 different dots for the exact same potency/min benefit.

job fixed

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Dunno how controversial this is so I'll just see what others say but honestly I quite like the sound of this. I enjoyed having like 4 or 5 dots in ARR =)

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Originally Posted by Rinion

Dunno how controversial this is so I'll just see what others say but honestly I quite like the sound of this. I enjoyed having like 4 or 5 dots in ARR =)

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Pop in bane so we can spread it and give us an aetherflow dump and I'd be happy with this. I assume when they say the DoTs will be for the same potency they mean the DoT potencies will add up to equal what we have now. Maybe just a touch more to account for the time spent applying all 4

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Pop in bane so we can spread it and give us an aetherflow dump and I'd be happy with this. I assume when they say the DoTs will be for the same potency they mean the DoT potencies will add up to equal what we have now. Maybe just a touch more to account for the time spent applying all 4

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That sounds good as far as the DPS side of things goes ^.^

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

So instead of bringing up the class lagging behind to the standards of the other healers, it's better to balance by making the others worse? So AST doesnt need potency buffs, instead WHM/SCH should be nerfed until they're at AST's level, according to balance.

Glad to see your friend likes new SCH, but I've met people, of all skill levels, that cant stand scholar, look at all the threads on here, and must people have the same complaints. We're not even upset over effectiveness or about being nerfed, just what we HAVE to do. I dont know who wants to spam 1 button all day, but most people I know like to press several buttons.

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When a healer survive a raid without casting a single GCD heal spell and when 5.0 are supposed to turn healer to more healing focus.
I guess a tune down of healing potency and longer CD on oGCD might be need to put back to the path

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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Originally Posted by Dynia

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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Why should every healer in this game be forced to subscribe to your ideology? We play healers instead of dps because we'd rather be healers than dps. We just actually want our entire kit to be interesting to use.

Edit: do you even play SCH or AST? You're listed as 80 CNJ, 80 WHM, 26 THM. Somehow I doubt you're choosing to display that over your 50 SCH and AST. Why do you care how healers that you don't even use play? How can you cast judgement on jobs you don't even play?

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Originally Posted by Dynia

once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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In the case of Scholar, which most of these DPS related complaints are about, they are DPSing just as much, if not more, than before (because now they have even more powerful healing tools and they are using all Aetherflow stacks on OCD heals allowing them to spend even more of their CGD on DPS). The main difference is, it's now much more boring to do, with less abilities to use. How anyone can see that as an improvement boggles my mind.

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Originally Posted by Dynia

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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How does gimping our DPS options while buffing our healing options make us heal more? If anything it makes it easier and we now just have less to do in the downtime periods which are just as numerous.

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Originally Posted by Dynia

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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These healers are complaining because they've reached the skill level where they dont find themselves with the constant need to heal that often at all if they get a group and would like to do more than fling DoT hardcast Damage Button over and over and over pop OGCD Heal repeat ad nauseum I dont blame them on that but at the same form the outsider looking in perspective

(cause this is how it looks from A: New healers and B:Tanks looking over this.)

TANK POV:Hi I'm one of THOSE healers you get grouped with that are so focused on churning out damage that we completely ignore your health bar cause screw you if you die it's not my fault you need to either heal yourself or not get hit.(These healers are the reason you'll see PLDs that cast Clemency ALOT or other tanks that will Small Pull)

New Healer POV: Hi I'm that jackwagon you get stuck with in 8 man content that forces you to do all the work and keep everyone alive while I just fling damage stuff cause I don't need to do my job now that there's two of us.(Those Healers teach New Healers that it's fine to be a leech)

Bear in mind these ones in the forums arent the aforementioned two.

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Originally Posted by Dynia

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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So what do you say to Ast who are putting it down due to their card system and weak healing?

Believe it or not most ast complaints are its card system and weak healing on its long cds(CU is a very big offender), ast identity has been weakened, its buffs are now so weak a whm trumps them without any utility, ast healing cannot even compare to sch, right now groups can very easily go whats the point of ast? minor rng dependant padding?

Ast has always had low pdps until they changed malefic's cast time and a bare bones rotation the most complex was 2 Dots and then spam that malefic but the dps is not what resonated me to the job, it was its support options, its card system, and currently its a hollow shell of what it used to be, i can work with the new system, still does not mean i prefer the old one but when you combine so low rdps contribution and low healing we get 3.0 ast again. A fundamentally broken job that saw nothing but exclusion the only job that has ever been worse than that design wise was 2.0 war even 4.0 war/sch was better than 3.0 ast and we are close to it again >_>

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Oh boy the baseless assumptions are a flowing! You seem to imply here that anyone who's not been a WHM somehow has it out against your class, when in reality:

1. I remember plenty of vocal ASTs and SCHs over the years frustrated with SE's seeming inability to keep WHM relevant to groups and, particularly in the lead up to Stormblood, were vocal in calling out the dev's inane design with lilies.

2. Of those telling people to "calm down and shut up" there were quite a few self proclaimed WHM mains who were unwilling to listen to the feedback people were given on why the design wasn't working.

The different healer jobs are not opposing factions in some war for dominance. So maybe stop assuming that anyone that doesn't play your class is some bad actor out to get you. It's the mentality of a child that ironically only serves to drive people away from your ideals.

As for your last point: So just because you know someone (real or not) that feels differently, everyone else's opinion is just invalid now? Did you even bother to ask what exactly they like about this iteration versus previous versions of SCH? For all I know, they may be the kind of player that just enjoys playing something easy and/or overpowered...which is certainly how healing has become with SCH's "a tool for every situation" kit. For past SCHs that want some depth with the class, this opinion does nothing to counter their arguments because they're from completely different mindsets.

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1. Oh yes, I totally said it was everyone saying that. Except I didn't, I specifically addressed people like you downplaying the troubles WHM went throughout the years. I brought up arguments said over the years to people like me who wanted to stick with the job. Not with a single word did I say it was every single SCH/AST-player. However, maybe I just attract jackasses, I don't know, but I had a LOT of people in different places, be it Teamspeak, Discord, ingame, or wherever, trying to tell me that WHM either is fine (in StB, even though it was clunky as heck, and didn't have anything to contribute to the party outside of pDPS, a discipline it was overtaken by ASTs, even, in the end; this is something that never actually got fixed, since I don't expect our pDPS to be sustainable in higher content at all), or so deep down in the trashbin that I'm an idiot for continuing to play it, often trying to convince me to go AST for cards, too.

2. There were many SCH and AST as well. You only have to go back a month or two to find someone being outright rude and disrespectful to the job and anyone playing it, or those putting the job down as the "training-wheel healer anyone should abandon as soon as they get used to healing". Those were mainly people playing the other two healers. Also, those people trying to tell me the cast-time reduction to their DPS abilitites and the other buffs AST received late in StB were tooootaaaaaally QoL, super needed and didn't impact the balancing between healers at all where all WHM mains? Sorry, but only an idiot would honestly believe that. I also had a pretty long (I think 2h+) discussion with an FC member telling me I was wrong with liking WHM and should really play AST because it's, I quote, "better in every single regard". Really sorry personal experience made me extremely bitter and distrustful of the community...

And no, their opinions are not invalid. I feel they exaggerate, though, and make SCH to be far, far worse than it actually is; and the person I was talking about agrees. Also, cool how you immediately assume he doesn't even really exist. Absolutely not trying to discredit me by implying I lie, nope. Or if you wanted to ferret a name out of me, you will have to try a lot harder than that. Said friend, btw, is one of the best bard-mains I know, also plays all the other ranged, and also levels every other job there is right now, being competent at most of them. Or in short, he is a pretty darn good player all around, parsing in the 95%+ (if you want to see one of them, give me your Discord-ID and I'll show you a screenshot with names edited out) on all jobs I have seen him on so far (mainly ranged). Now, I cannot tell you if Bard is easy to play or not since I don't play it myself and won't claim I'm an expert on it, but at least from hearsay it doesn't appear to be overly simple.

Last, I honestly don't think you even understand why I am as bitter and disappointed, both at SE and people, as I am, despite people pointing it out to you multiple times now, and far better than annoyed me ever could myself. So let me give you two quotes, and if you STILL don't see it, I'm done with you:

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I see the problem as follows.

SCH and AST are complaining that thier jobs are no longer engaging. The reality is AST lost nothing to its dps rotation not a single thing for DPS was lost with them. What they're complaining about is the loss of different card effects and being able to prolong utility usage of party buffs to an almost indefinite degree What SCHs are complaining about is the loss of 5 buttons and old energy drain. What both SCH and AST are failing to see is that is the very same crap WHM has had to put up with since the ARR days. Former bestie was the one who talked ime into join ffxiv after I got tired of WoW like myself they main healers in every single MMO they played. I get it I get the complaints I really do SCH in 3.5+ was a blast and AST though nowhere near as enjoyable.( Sorry AST RNG buff cards that get burned for stronger effects usually several draw CDs in a row was more frustrating than engaging SCH was epicly more fun to do. )

That said WHM players have put up with the same thing from the very beginning WHM players asked for the job to be made more fun we got more effin heals and diminishing returns on our one actually good AoE on top of a nerf to its damage. AST and SCH meanwhile were having the time of thier lives and really really didnt seem to give one iota of a care about WHM aside from a passing one aside from those that actually leveled all three and even then it was just to say that yeah WHM is boring. So the fact that there are several WHM mains saying sucks dont it shouldnt even be remotely surprising.

That said I have said before all the endless complaint threads about upcoming changes IF when the new content came out and it was the same as ever that I would join the chorus And so I have kept that promise but those of you that are doing the SHC AST thing need to understand every complaint you have about the classes no longer being engaging was something WHM mains have dealt with since DAY1 I fully agree all the classes should be engaging both in healing and damage /damage mitigation I farther feel all the AoEs that each brings to the table should have some kind of effect to help the party like Holys Stun I think AST AoE should have a Slow and Scholar AoE get a buff that blunts the enemies damage for a few seconds by increasing party members sheilds by a 1/4 of the damage done but the effect only can happen once every 90 seconds I also think that a couple less healing buttons and a couple more dps buttons would help as well. the cards should be all AoE but bring back the effects and have the old tp increase one restore MP slightly faster. give WHM an AoE magic barrier so they can synergize with SCH and AST and for the love of god either remove the stupid water thing or give it back it's damage again.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I feel like you must be conflating me with some other poster(s) here because I have never expressed the opinion you're attributing to me. What I have expressed is utter exasperation. Let me spell it out very, very plainly so there can be no confusion. White Mage has been suffering from This Problem for the better part of 3 years. We wanted This Problem addressed by giving White Mage an interesting mechanic of its own that allowed us some engaging gameplay a la the Astrologian cards or fairy micromanagement. Instead, SE gave This Problem to SCH and groin-kicked AST with steel-toed boots. Now, there's a growing sense that the severity of the backlash is going to cause SE to fix These Problems for SCH and AST, while leaving us to press our two buttons. It's even worse because the ShB changes have brought all the Sylphies out of the woodwork to talk about how WHM is just the bee's knees now.

There is a complete lack of trust that SE can touch healers with a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer. SCH expressly does not need buffs, as it's likely already on par with WHM for rDPS contribution in Savage content. AST expressly does need buffs but, forgive us, we've just spent two years either rerolling AST or being replaced by them. All it will take is a few potency changes and we're back where we started.

Edit: So, to be completely clear. Yes, I'd love to see SCH have its gameplay issues addressed. They're badly needed. No, I don't want to see AST in a garbage heap. But by the Twelve I really wish fixing both of those things could be a priority for White Mage for once.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

snip

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Genuinely trying to understand:

1. If you don’t think WHM was fun, why didn’t you change? I’m not trying to imply you should have. I assume there is something about he WHM job that appealed to you enough that you didn’t want to leave it. I’d like to know what that thing is.

2. How would you change WHM to make it as fun as the other healers used to be?

Also, can’t speak for others, but I only started actually visiting the forums when they messed up my class. I imagine it’s the same for a lot of people. They’re not the same ones who were actively telling you to deal with it for the last few years. If you tell us what changes you’d like to see to make WHM more fun (and other WHM mains agree) I for one would be happy to support you in lobbying SE for change.

SE should embrace healers secondary identities: SCH as a debuffer, WHM as a nuker and AST as a buffer.

Give each a system as complex as the AST cards use to be to fill the healing downtime.

Have SCH use AF stacks to find enemy weaknesses and reveal them with Chain Stratagem to create burst windows.
Have WHM water the lillies by weaving together healing and damaging spells.
And AST focus on aligning buffs, extending and changing them to fit the needs of the party.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

SE should embrace healers secondary identities: SCH as a debuffer, WHM as a nuker and AST as a buffer.

Give each a system as complex as the AST cards use to be to fill the healing downtime.

Have SCH use AF stacks to find enemy weaknesses and reveal them with Chain Stratagem to create burst windows.
Have WHM water the lillies by weaving together healing and damaging spells.
And AST focus on aligning buffs, extending and changing them to fit the needs of the party.

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Idea: Afflatus spells are oGCDs, Fluid Aura is an oGCD weak damage spell that can only be used after casting a healing/damaging GCD and grants a buff to the caster which increases white lilly generation speed by X% for X seconds.
(obviously adjusting global potencies for all that.)

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Genuinely trying to understand:


1. If you don’t think WHM was fun, why didn’t you change? I’m not trying to imply you should have. I assume there is something about he WHM job that appealed to you enough that you didn’t want to leave it. I’d like to know what that thing is.

2. How would you change WHM to make it as fun as the other healers used to be?

Also, can’t speak for others, but I only started actually visiting the forums when they messed up my class. I imagine it’s the same for a lot of people. They’re not the same ones who were actively telling you to deal with it for the last few years. If you tell us what changes you’d like to see to make WHM more fun (and other WHM mains agree) I for one would be happy to support you in lobbying SE for change.

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1. I didn't say it wasn't fun; but it was troubled, with the biggest trouble being people telling you to switch, or being rude about how WHM is for 'unskilled'/new players due to its simplicity (btw, I also raided as SCH in HW, I found its 'complexity' quite overrated back then even, which is why I shake my head over that claim so much right now), which is more an outside issue than the job itself. Also, it just had so many stupid, outright redundant parts, like the entire 4.X Lily system, PI for a big part of the expansion, and what has to be the worst trait in the entire game (SotL II, you won't be missed), on top of no utility whatsoever. What kept me going was a pretty weird mix of nostalgia, the hope that things might turn out fine one day, and pure spite against those telling me to play AST, which I always hated due to it feeling like a very lazy copy-paste job of the other healers.

2. Right now, I wish for some weaving options. They look plenty on paper, but I find myself wanting for something to weave in surprisingly often even if I use Benison on CD, especially when taking double-weaving into account like in the opener, and that you sometimes don't actually have to use, say, Tetra because nobody took damage. And between Regen, 3 - 4 Afflatus-spells in 90 seconds (if you actually need them), Dia and the option to Swiftcast something e.g. for movement, there are so many potential weave windows that I at times stand there without anything to klick while waiting for the GCD to wear off. Also, only a single of my weaving options, Assize, deals damage, so it would be nice to have something in that regard especially, since weaving a healing-CD into a heal is often not necessary at all, and my only damage-GCD I can use for weaving is Misery and Dia, and if I use Dia, I might have to clip it just to weave; that doesn't feel good to me at all. I would honestly like to see Misery off the GCD, even if they should nerf it a bit if they do so. I think that would help already. Also, a negative about Lilies I see is that while SCH can get three aether stacks immediately at the beginning of the fight, the first Lily will only appear after 30 seconds. That might sound like a small thing, but a single Lily at the start would feel pretty nice in quite a few situations, though this isn't such a big issue. It's also a bother that all Lilies, including the blood lily you spent so much time getting, vanish if you die, but I guess that's something I just have to deal with, as SCH had to since forever. *shrugs*
Also, I know many will disagree on this one, but some rDPS-utility would be nice. They have to nerf our rDPS if they do so to not make us completely op, but with how fixated many players are on this even today, it would literally be the easiest way to stop the cycle of WHM falling out of grace we lived through twice now, and which I predict happening again. Another option would be getting a debuff instead.

Even if they aren't the same people, they do act the same way (and also, some are actually the same people...), which is already extremely agitating and frustrating. By now, I'm pretty defensive about this topic, since I have to read through the same old, tired arguments again for the xteenth time now.

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Originally Posted by Dynia

all who post here on forums that leave game: we all know you will back soon ^^

and I hope they won't change healers, i love how they are now
once again healers meant to heal not to dps, don't like healer dps kit ? change to dps class, simple

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I usually think an opinion shouldn't be dismissed because someone is newer to the game but in this case. Since you apparently joined in 2017. People were already used to how sch worked for 4 years before you joined and now that has completely changed after 6 years of people sticking with it because that is what they enjoyed.
Telling those people they should just switch jobs and stop complaining because they don't like what their favorite job has become is pretty short sighted.
Also fun fact: If you enjoy what healers are now. You could have had that the whole time.... just don't use dps skills.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

I usually think an opinion shouldn't be dismissed because someone is newer to the game but in this case. Since you apparently joined in 2017. People were already used to how sch worked for 4 years before you joined and now that has completely changed after 6 years of people sticking with it because that is what they enjoyed.
Telling those people they should just switch jobs and stop complaining because they don't like what their favorite job has become is pretty short sighted.
Also fun fact: If you enjoy what healers are now. You could have had that the whole time.... just don't use dps skills.

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Without wanting to attack you or anything, but...
"Just play something else!" is exactly what WHMs got told for a pretty long time now <.<

I mostly agree with the rest of your post, though.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Could you go into specifics of what you like about this iteration relative to the last? Not looking to be combative, mainly trying to see what makes you happy about the current state of the job.

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I have been playing it mainly in the new raid in a group where I know my co-healer, both my tanks and some of my DPS. MY CO-healer is a WHM currently. Healing the raids, learning mechanics, and aiming to DPS as much as possible has been very entertaining. I have a range of healing abilities, including a few oshit buttons, so I've found it a more pleasant experience than (for example) healing the first tier of Omega on SCH right at the start when ppl were undergeared. Seraph is great, and I also use Sacred Soil more than previously. Excogitation has always been my go-to button and that hasn't changed. The buffed crit adloqium (I forget the name) is also gorgeous. DPS has had a button reduction but I honestly don't get why pressing two buttons (or 3 if you don't have a paper tank and dare risk a bane) is so very much more engaging than pressing one? I mean it's not like it constituted an actual rotation, and the engagement for me in playing a healer is in keeping people alive whilst handling mechanics. Handling mechanics is my biggest issue because I have directional dyslexia (I'm not joking, this a serious handicap) and I am elderly in terms of the player base so my reaction time and memory is not what it was. For me, the fights and healing is very nicely tuned.

I appreciate that people who play at a higher level are probably less engaged, but I would also suspect the majority of players are more in my skill range and therefore likely to be happy with the current situation

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

1. If you don’t think WHM was fun, why didn’t you change? I’m not trying to imply you should have. I assume there is something about he WHM job that appealed to you enough that you didn’t want to leave it. I’d like to know what that thing is.

2. How would you change WHM to make it as fun as the other healers used to be?

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Not the person you're asking, but I agree with the tenor of her complaints. 1. I like the aesthetic. I think the Amdapori lore is neat. I like the idea of keeping the team alive while blasting opponents. I'm more fond of its aesthetic than poison fairy mage or star fortune teller mage.

2. I'd love to have impactful rewards in the kit for playing well. Misery I've heard is -okay-, but I peaced out on healing this expansion a while ago so I wouldn't know personally. I've got a *lot* of complaints about SE's handling of WHM over the years. I get pruning needing to happen, for example, but I'd love an expansion where I didn't feel like they were nerfing the crap out of skills you use (Holy, for the umpteenth time. Fluid Aura when it had damage. Deleting Aeros. Shroud of Saints. Divine Seal.) and buffing things you avoid using (Cure). I'd love a reward model for improving skill that excites me a bit more than "you've managed to refund yourself time with judicious use of your abilities? Congratulations! Now you get to, with a few exceptions every 30/45/90 seconds, cast one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. No cards to juggle or anything else. Just that." Trimming the fat from your skill usage should feel like a refinement, and personally 211111111111111111111*snore* isn't my nirvana.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

snip

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1. Right. That makes sense. Although I'm still a little fuzzy on why you find the current pushes for change upsetting. Is it because in only complaining when SCH and AST were changed we're implying that it doesn't matter if WHM has those problems? If that's the case, I can tell you my thinking, but that's all. If that doesn't help, I guess it doesn't help. I find WHM a little dull. Not necessarily less skilled but certainly lacking the phrenetic pace I enjoyed on my SCH. It seems more thoughtful. WHM was my first healer, and I did enjoy it when I played it, but I moved on rather than campaigning for change because I know that the style of play that suits me doesn't suit everyone, and it's good for them to also have a job that they enjoy. Quite frankly anyone who belittles other people based on their preferred job is a bit of an a#%. I hope you can understand that there are frustrations on our side, too. Right now the SCH dps rotation closely resembles the old WHM one, and so it's hard to say that we don't want to be that, that we want to be different from WHMs, without disparaging WHM at least indirectly. Ultimately, again, I think it really comes down to wanting different healers to play differently. We loved our old style, and we want it back.

2. Do you think it would work to have some sort of low potency dps ability on a 2-ish second cooldown? Presumably you'd have to nerf glare a bit to make up for the extra damage opportunities. I did think when I was playing my WHM that it seemed odd to have so many instant spells and so few things to (regularly) weave with them. Alternately, or possibly additionally, I'd love to see a way to spend regular lilies on dps. I love decision making and risk/reward calculations, and letting WHM decide whether to spend their resources offensively or defensively would be great. Alternately, if they want to keep basic lilies healing only, I'd love to see the generation rate of lilies be partially based on dps dealt, so you still gain lilies over time, but faster when you're dealing damage. This would set up a lovely dynamic where your dps and heals actively feed each other in both directions. As for lilies at the start of fights, perhaps an ability on a 3 minute cooldown to give you one Lily? It doesn't amount to that much extra, but would mean you could always start an instance with one. As for rdps utility, absolutely. Something like chain stratagem could be added to give WHM some utility without impacting its gameplay much. Ofc, all these changes would require potency changes to balance, but I leave that for others to figure out.


My concern when I propose changes for WHM is that I might be trying to shift it away from what WHMs enjoy and towards what I enjoy. I don't main WHM (at the moment) and so my opinion on what it should be counts for less than that of those people who do main it.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

2. How would you change WHM to make it as fun as the other healers used to be?

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Not them, but stance dancing. I miss it. I'd like to see it brought back, but unlike most other WHM abilities, I wouldn't want to see it shared with the other healers via cross role.

I think WHM should maintain it's high pDPS, despite it being harder to maintain than King of oGCDs The Lord Scholar. If WHM is not going to have any sort of raid DPS utility (which after 4 years of asking is looking more and more likely), then I think a high-risk high-reward system that allows them to lay on some serious burst damage at the cost of their healing would be interesting, fun, and in-line with the general aesthetic of the job. It would reward skill and timing, as well as be easily ignored by Sylphies and new players so WHM can remain the 'teaching job.'

I don't think it would necessarily make WHM more desirable for raids (after the inevitable SCH/AST buffs and/or WHM nerfs), especially so long as the DPS 'muh parse' mentality remains. But it would make the job more engaging for people like me, that enjoy pushing the line and making tanks sweat whilst unleashing the fury of the gods upon hapless mobs. And then healing. If needed.

Mind you this is all pure fantasy. It will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Genuinely trying to understand:

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I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll give my answers anyway, as a similarly frustrated WHM.

1. It's not that WHM was never fun. Stuff like God Kefka or UwU? Super fun! Leveling dungeons when your tank's getting beat to a pulp and you can spam Holy? Super fun! But that's like 0.1% of game time. It's the monotony when you get to farm content, or when content is simply not designed with sufficient heal checks to necessitate use of WHM's plethora of healing spells. I can't speak for anyone else, but I did toy around with AST as well. It's pretty. But I like White Mage's aesthetic, and AST just felt clunky to me. I wasn't going to force someone in my static out of the group and force us to find a new healer by switching Job mid-expansion. They're all traumatized by earlier experiences on that count. My group appreciated me as a healer.

I actually wound up taking a break from the game once we got to O11s because I was so bored (and busy IRL) that I was literally falling asleep during raid. And 'lo, our static stopped raiding. So this is why people stick with Jobs they're unhappy with. Loyalty to its previous iterations, and loyalty to the people they play with.

2. This is a tricky question. The problem with WHM, as we see it, is that it lacks something the other Jobs have. So it's not really about tweaking existing stuff. The fundamental design is flawed, and indeed, is the source of most imbalance between the healers. SCH's healing kit is primarily off GCD, allowing it to use most of its GCDs on doing damage. AST's raid DPS comes largely from its off-global card system, allowing it to use many GCDs on healing without completely tanking its rDPS contribution. WHM, meanwhile, has most of its healing and damage toolkits on the GCD, with limited abilities to weave. This chart makes it pretty stark:

https://i.imgur.com/crBB5fI.png

For SCH, the loss of Embrace targeting and Energy Drain, and the inability to activate fairy abilities during spell casts, has been a huge dumbing down of the Job - and yet they still have more to weave than WHMs do, even without using Emergency Tactics at all.

In order to achieve a semblance of balance (and for single-healer content) the healers each have to have the same core functionalities. In White Mage's case, more of this functionality is packed into its GCD spells: its damage spells are more potent, and its healing spells more varied and versatile.

But we all have the same number of GCDs, which means WHM's performance and playstyle is dictated by encounter design far more than the other two healers. That's why WHM looks like a DPS powerhouse now, but in a challenging Savage or Ultimate raid will likely fall behind SCH. That's also what we mean when we say SCH has become WHM. In content without a lot of healing, we're both just spamming one button. This is how WHM has always been, and it feels awful when you're not healing a lot. Their solution to this seems to have been just a huge nerf to healing, requiring more usage of healing spells. The problem there, of course, is that this still tanks WHM's rDPS, and SCH has as few healing spells as it does damage spells.

The obvious thing to do with Shadowbringers would've been to make WHM a bit more like the other two. It had a useless Job gauge. They could've done anything. Instead they took a different approach, giving WHM a mechanic that offsets its personal DPS loss when it has to use GCDs to heal. At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that they just won't give WHM more oGCD abilities because they think WHM players are one-armed toddlers who can't press more than one button every 2.5s.

So, looking at realistic changes, perhaps they could develop this a bit further. Ditch the passively-generated Lilies altogether. Require the generation of 5-6 Lilies to make the Blood Lily bloom. Cast-time heal spells (Cures and Medicas) generate 2 Lilies, and instants (Afflatus) generate 1. Then, give us a second option for expending the Blood Lily: a short-duration (~10s) buff (Afflatus: Wrath?) to our damage which has a greater potency potential than Afflatus: Misery. Tweak potencies as necessary, and slap an MP cost on Solace and Rapture.

This achieves several goals:

1. WHM still gets the desired mobility from the Afflatus heals, but it doesn't incentivize always using those spells first, and indeed punishes you for over-relying on them. It also pares back on WHM's total disregard for MP.
2. It further stabilizes WHM's rDPS contribution by offsetting the DPS loss of using GCDs on healing. This also allows WHM's maximum pDPS potential to be toned down a bit (tanks rejoice).
3. It restores an element of planning and decision-making around how to use the Blood Lily gauge, without totally punishing you for making the "less optimal" decision.

Alas, what're the chances? I hope you weren't expecting a short reply! :cool:

It has been enlightening coming to this forums after spraying morning coffee on the monitor as I read the 5.0 changes for sch. Most for seeing my favorite job is not the only affected by sweeping changes that altered it in a very different way or not, which seems in whms case.

Short story: I started this game wanting be a healer, a whm, but started in Limsa as acn to be with my friend going mrd. After all I needed the acn levels then. Got to 15, MSQ took me to Grid, unlocked cnj, leveled to 30, unlocked whm, played a bit and quickly missed acn for it's playstyle. Went back, unlocked sch unknowing what it was, and never looked back. Also unlocked ast, but by then schs style was so ingrained I couldnt bear leveling with one dot and one damage spell and no pet. Thinking it might be better at max level for those who seemed to enjoy the playstyle, feel or aestethic.

5.0 happend, sch now feels like the whm and ast I left at level 35. More skills sure, at the same time less to do. And now Iearn it was what you had for all these years and the "Y'all need to calm down" before SB when the changes were announced seem even more inapropriate. As if you knew then as I suspected now that this probably won't be good.

Knowing how busy sch was in hw and pld in sb, with a large varied set, looking for oppertunities to make little changes here and there is something I would wish for on everyones job. Everyone might not use the whole set, it probably wouldn't be necessary at all times, but those who would want to stay busy could.

Im mostly here advocating for return of the old sch (or new and similar), but seems more and more necessary as a whole to get the developers out here and talk the people who have played all these jobs for 6, 5, 4... No matter the time they started and hopefully discuss and incorperate some feedback. Dream scenario would be where those who simply look to the healer role to only heal would find little changed and those wanting to do more find an intricate system within their reach.

Maybe I shouldve expressed my gratitude for sch here back in 3.0. The devs might have taken note, changed nothing in ShB and I wouldnt made long-winded posts with burning sensation for a mmo job.