[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

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Yeah God forbid that a guy actually be blunt about his actual feelings. They must be romantic!

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If you are so determined in not accepting that his feelings were romantic.

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I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

It is also part of the reason he is torn up in Shadowbringers given he once again adopts that same role, except this time it is for someone who is Minfilia only in name/connection, but not really her. To make matters worse, this 'not-really-Minfilia' may or may not replace 'his' Minfilia, the one he's gutted over having been unable to protect multiple times. It's out of his control and it galls him, with a living reminder right there by his side. It is only when the matter is resolved that he can move past it.

And once again, not a single romantic thread was spun once even this expansion, which has given more background and lore on their relationship in a short space of time compared to some previous expos over their entirety. Even the maybe-maybe not 'I love you' (which is pure assumption) can refer to any kind of love. Given the context of their relationship over all these years, it is easy to attribute it to his role as her carer and protector. Some might choose to believe it is something more and that's fine, but be sure to revisit their story over the years to see why it is not likely. Also, be mindful when you tell people off for not adhering to what can only really be called 'head-canon' (which is what it is given there is so little evidence whatsoever of any romantic interest at all between the two). Even if you could find any, it pales in comparison to the contrary, often from his own dialogue and in-game cutscenes.

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As for the topic itself, Minfilia was an outright disaster of characterization which goes beyond FFXIV. She annoyed players in another title/spin-off of which the name escapes me. She was destined to fail when reduced to being a short-lived 'fetch-quest giver' with a penchant for getting into trouble and needing saving, without ever actually contributing a whole lot to compensate. This is no fault of Minfilia herself but the writers - and it is no surprise that such characters end up either unpopular or, at worst, simply hated. Ryne is a soft-reset of the character (without totally neglecting Minfilia's own background or her ties with Thancred). After all, she said herself that she (Minfilia) will be part of Ryne, but it was all essentially a way of starting her over from scratch.

You don't have to like Ryne, but if you're going to dislike her anyway, try not to do so under the assumption that she's merely a 'replacement Minfilia'. She's her own character and has seen more development in this one new story than Minfilia ever had since her inception in FFXIV to the present.

I know it sucks when a character you like is dealt a hand you're not satisfied with and there is nothing wrong with being a bit upset or miffed at it -- it shows a passion for the story/characters when this happens, which is good -- but be careful of how that anger/sadness impacts your overall enjoyment of everything else. The story and characterization in Shadowbringers has been an absolute gem thus far and it'd be a big shame to spoil it due to one plot thread you're not overly keen on. We've only just got started and I have no doubt Minfilia will be mentioned or still have an impact in some way down the road.

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Yeah God forbid that a guy actually be blunt about his actual feelings. They must be romantic!

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To be fair that is largely the point. I can understand why so many people would leap to a conclusion about the two - I mean, here are two attractive characters of relatively similar age who claim they are fond of each other for reasons that are fed through dribs and drabs for years (ie. we're not force-fed a 'we're not like that' for some time in the story) - so surely there must be something more going on, right? Right? Well, no, as he himself has said during said scenes when questioned on the topic. Every time it is mentioned it has been done so with the exact same common threads - mostly his guilt and a need to watch over her. Along the way, any talk of romance is debunked either by himself or by context. Neither character ever implied at any point there was anything more than a deep bond of friendship between them.

Sadly, we live in a world where people still think it's a bit weird for a male and female to just be friends. Me and my own best friend have been at the brunt of this for two decades. Over those years, either family, acquaintances, or even other friends who know better will tease or believe there is something more going on. The relationship between these two fictional fantasy characters isn't much different, except their bond has a more traumatic/dramatic foundation to it.

Not sure why the double post.

I'm saying tho, that it's pretty shaky ground to assume that every male that has a fondness towards another female has to be romantic. If you're gonna complain about bad writing, making that assumption based on gender is equally at fault.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

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I can only write posts up to 3000 characters for some reason :/

I really didnt want this topic to be about "top 10 reasons why you dislike Minfilia". Its not about it and believe me I heard and know them all. But if you do want to start it, there you go.

Yes, running back and forth from Horizon was annoying- no doubt, but that's bad writing to draw out gaming time. It was just unfortunate Minfilia got the bulk of it, you know, like every other NPC that asked you to run around for them. But still, having played the MSQ through roughly 6 times now, this is very much exaggerated. In almost every case you are only summoned back to base at the end of each story arc, in order to report findings and discuss the next order of business. Not to mention that this still happens even today, long after Minfilia has gone. It seems the main complaint stems from Vesper Bay lacking an aetheryte and Minfilia gets the flak. Additionally, there are large stretches in ARR (where "pray return to the waking sands" was most common) in which you don't visit for nearly 5-10 levels, such as Titan and Coerthas. In fact you basically never go there at her behest from level 35 until nearly 46 because she is not there.

And why does giving you quests is a bad impression? Like, somebody has to do it, right? And besides, its not really true that them are all pointless outside of making you meld her dagger she never uses, but that's a gameplay tutorial and you all know it. Most waste of time quests are given out by other NPCs, and even missions that amount to little, like the Sylphs, still result in important information and make sense from the perspective of the story and the role of the Scions. Plus Minfilia is one of the few characters to actively praise you and give you credit for your deeds. Other Scions are fighters, its only right that they are introduced to you via something cool and action-oriented. Minfilia is a leader, negotiator and researcher, and yeah you just dont see her doing this much, which brings me to my next point.

Yeah, the "main" problem. First things first, you can all assume what the leaders duty is right? Then why do you have to see Minfilia doing all, how you said it yourself, boring stuff like negotiating, handling logistics and bureaucracy when you can fill screen time with action and fighting? Being a leader and actually managing all the money, contacts, workers, etc, is hard and unexciting work, and I know that's exactly what Minf does, but I know it because she is the leader, not because we see her doing that. And well yeah, maybe Alph did take negotiating role off Minfilia but lets not forget her other important roles, like telling us how to stop the primals. She is outright telling us what do we have to do. That requires research and going through contacts, and she has her homework done in time to tell us what she found time and time again. The problem?

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

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Maybe she is too efficient, because we don't see that, just she telling us what we have to do. And even that is not exactly true, we have seen several times she talking with her contacts or telling us she is going to move through them to find what we need. For some reason she just doesnt get enough credit for her role. We know she is in contact with all the leaders, research all she can about the threats that we fight, and we can win because we know where to strike and how thanks to her, most of the time. We dont have to see her actually doing it because then cutscenes would take an hour.

And the fact that, unlike Alph, we don't see her talking with the leaders doesn't mean that she doesn't, because we know she does. To the point of protecting the Scions from the influence of the Syndicate, something Alph wasn't able to do for the Crystal Braves.

And what about the scene with her unwilling to bend to Livia's or Nabriales' abuse of her? That was strong enough to me. She's strong in her strength of will, and I honestly don't see why people tend to forget these things as well.

On a topic with Tataru, I dont know, I felt like her role and her personality were over exaggerated. She gets slack for being devious and because shes useful for getting the scions into places. Which is what Minfilia used to do but without being a Lalafell. Minfilia actually comes out to meet you on a few occasions. Like during the snowcloak stuff she meets with the ishgardians (and actually wears a big coat because her normal outfit is stupid in the snow, unlike Alphinaud, the dingus.) Tataru has "gone out and worked for it like twice, and both times she failed miserably. She generally spends her time standing in a room supposedly gathering leads and funds, but you're also only told this most of the time. Sge sometimes gets to "show" but is largely a bigger "tell" character than Minfilia was. The early section of Stormblood has us seeking passage to Kugane by sea and so we go to Limsa Lominsa to avoid the obvious solution and ask the criminally underutilized Admiral Merlwyb. Instead, Tataru blackmails an on-the-spot made-up Isgardian moonlighting as a sailor to do it. If anyone had good Intel on passage to the Far East, it was Merlwyb or even one of her subordinates. Other than that, Tataru just hangs out in dive bars to relay us very little or lives it up in Kugane where she claims,to do the bookeeping.

Bookeeping on the twelve-knows-what, I always have to fund myself. With that gear that buy multiple houses, as Tataru goes out of her way to fourth wall. I didn't have a house at the time and knew that stung others.

She mean. Minfilia was always kind.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

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Also, on the point of questgiving. Therein lies the conundrum of the Scions, not just Minfillia. Due to the nature of the game (an MMORPG), and the western playerbase being action-heavy, wanting crazy accolades to be given to them and paradoxically not have to work for them.

Imagine if FFXIV was a single player Final Fantasy game. There would be no Warrior of Light. One would play as The Scions. Think about it. Alphinaud your arcanist/summoner, Alisae your arcanist/red mage, Urianger a summoner/black mage, Yda your Monk, Papalymo a black mage, Thancred a thief/ninja, Moenbryda scholar/warrior, Y'shtola a white mage and Minfillia the FFXIV equivalent of a FF5 freelancer. Their actions and story are affected because the Warrior of Light exists. With the WoL doing seemingly everything, the Scions appear to not do anything in return.

Which leads to my next point: The western player base is ludicrously action oriented with barely any account for passivity or balance between the two. It's all "Do, do, do, fight, fight, fight. If I'm not seeing you doing anything at this very second, you are useless." Coupled with "I've fought Gods, I killed big mean monsters, why do I have to do something less than that?" This becomes a nightmare for any kind of story for a game that features an adventurer as a playable character.

People forget that any task, no matter how menial, an adventurer will do with no problems. In fact they live for this and strangely enough, this is also one of those rare times where the adventurer may say what they think about their life as an adventurer. If people have played and seen the Dark Knight questline from level 30 to 50, the player can see the thoughts of the Warrior of Light.

The paradox comes in when the player wants other people or NPCs to do their work for them! That is the very antithesis of the adventurer. The tasks that the WoL does go from menial to legendary, and then settles somewhere in between. Don't be surprised when NPCs have you do any from of task. The WoL is just that dependable. Now I wonder if it is by the nature of the game or by design that things are as they are.

And what a cruel joke this is that in order to become "useful" for the majority of players and get development, she needed to become a tool and die. What a cheap, lazy-ass writing.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

If you read my post you'd know EXACTLY WHY THAT's not the case. That whole scenario is meant to demonstrate the themes of the game.

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I want to say that I dont have much to add to this point of yours because, like I said earlier, I stopped doing my MSQ after that disaster of a quest and in a crafting/chill mode these days. So I cant really add or counter much because Im not too deep into storyline yet. But from what I understood, reading various threads here on this forum, Ascians want to have their home back by causing various calamities, correct me if Im wrong. And when I look at it from this perspective, I think Im on Ascians side here. I mean, I can completely understand the reason why they fighting, its just that we are on a different side of a barricade and we should be fighting them to protect our world cuz they are villains etc. But on a bigger scale I feel like I would take the Ascian side. I would give up on current world because its not mine. Its not the world I love, not the world I grew up in, there nobody to this world I am attached to. And if its in my pwoer to bring my old world back, I will do anything to get it back. Hence why I was so pissed at Thancred reaction after Minfilia given up on her life. Like, I do understand that her sacrifice helps us to reveal the core if this expansion: nothing lasts forever as you said. But giving what I said earlier, it was beyond me to understand why did he decide to choose "some stupid girl" over one he have feelings for? Why fight for god knows what and support this girl, the only reason why he even rescued her being his wish for his Minfilia to awake? And its not like it would be super cruel, countless Minfilias died before, countless maybe will. But now all the heroes are here, wouldnt it be the perfect time to finally stop this cycle? And they did stop it, just the other way around.

I think Im just complete opposite of what this plot hand over to me. Im way against ultimate sacrifices and "leaving past in the past and live onward". I dont want to fight for something Ive never been a part of if I still can bring back the world i know and love. I dont want ones I love sacrifice their lifes in order to bring peace and prosperity to the future. There will be no future for me without them.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Its a special pet peeve of mine, I'll admit that, but here it goes

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There's a handful of characters who fall into this, too. Y'da is wearing half a pair of booty shorts for crying out loud. And the only reason for wearing short shorts and sabatons was for them pale, milky thighs. But I think thats just the personal preference, like I said fanservice is a common thing in SE, it just scales to game to game. Yes, maybe for a negotiator wearing such outfit is unacceptable but I liked to believe that shes wearing her "tribe" clothes. Like we didnt know much about Highlanders and Ala Mhigans back at ARR so I had a theory about her representating her country.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

So if you could sacrifice someone you have no connection with to get back someone you do have one with, would you?

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Yep, like I mentioned above, I gladly will. Especially someone who I dont have any connections with and who had a habit of dying countless times before. Like, whats the big deal?

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

As for the topic itself, Minfilia was an outright disaster of characterization which goes beyond FFXIV.

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I wish she was better written. But still she gets much more flak that what her writing deserves.

I doubt that the killed Minfilia off because of people hating her. I just think that this was the fitting ending for her character and it was a great way to develop Thancred. His desire to see old Minfilia again (which we dont know if he loved her like a lover or as family) and his love for the new child that he protected for three years. In the end Thancred knew what Minfilia wished and thus he started to accept that she will die. Heck without her returning to give people hope she would have been dead anyway.

I am quite happy that we have Ryne now. In the short time with her, she has grown on me way more than Minfilia ever could.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Thats speculations, of course but looked very much like so. Like they wanted to get rid of unwanted character and in ShB they patch plot holes introducing Ryne taking heritage.

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From what I understand, Minfilia was very popular in Japan. But she’s long since worn out her welcome from most of the NA/EU fans I’ve spoken to. I didn’t think she had much of a personality, nor did I find her particularly talented in anything other than getting kidnapped by every other villain out there. The declaration of “she did a lot behind the scenes” that I’ve seen from Minfilia stans really fell flat for me because we never saw any of that throughout the entirety of ARR.

If the developers want to get rid of a character, they’ll do what they did to Fordola. She had a really good arc in 4.1; but Japan did not like her character, so they relegated her to a Lodestone “Tales of the Storm” post and wrapped her story up there off-screen. I just think it was time for Minfilia to...move on. Especially after not being a part of the main story or our adventures since 2.55b—she only appeared briefly during 3.1 and 3.4, and that was that. I never had any emotional attachment to her despite her screentime.


Also, Re: 3,000 character limit—you can edit your post to include the rest of your thoughts on it. Editing bypasses the 3,000 limit these forums have.


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Alphinaud basically [redacted] everything up and has since replaced Minfilias role but somehow gets far less hate.

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A note on Alphinaud—I thought he was an absolute weenie when we met him in ARR: arrogant and prideful, everything I hate about a character. But his redeeming factor was that he recognized his own failures after the Crystal Braves (he had the best character development in HW of any other character), and has since strived to not make the same mistakes. Honestly, his portrayal in ShB endeared him to me more than I thought it would—I still prefer Alisaie, but I don’t mind Alphinaud now. I think he’s matured quite a bit.

Unjustified hate to ARR Minfilia? I would say any hate towards her was entirely justified. She served no purpose but to direct the storyline. Realistically her job *was* important, but they just did nothing to signify the importance of her work beyond "Oh, we're facing some new unknown problem, I'll summon this brand new NPC sort the problem out for us. Oh, and pray, return to the Waking Sands." Then in HW, she basically became a plot device herself.

Could they have improved OG Minfilia? Probably. She was a nice person, she just never got any chance, any chance at all, to prove herself to be an actual good character of worth, of which I'm sure she must have been, considering how much all the other Scions love her.

However, I'm absolutely fine with the route they took instead. Ryne is a sweet little thing, designed to wrap up Minfilia's plotline without actually replacing her. Ryne is her own person now, and they did a fine job differentiating her from Minfilia, with her own character development and growth. I, for one, welcome her to the group, and hope that she follows the Scions back to the Source when the time to go home arrives, though I'll be content if she also chooses to stay and and help support her people.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Also, Re: 3,000 character limit—you can edit your post to include the rest of your thoughts on it. Editing bypasses the 3,000 limit these forums have.

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Oh, thank you! I will try it with my next post since I dont see a way to delete my own posts.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Being a leader and actually managing all the money, contacts, workers, etc, is hard and unexciting work, and I know that's exactly what Minf does, but I know it because she is the leader, not because we see her doing that.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

She generally spends her time standing in a room supposedly gathering leads and funds, but you're also only told this most of the time. Sge sometimes gets to "show" but is largely a bigger "tell" character than Minfilia was.

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You can't say in one breath that Minfilia was a good leader who took care of all the necessary financial things, because that's just what leaders do, and then in the next complain about how we're told that Tataru is actually doing it. You can complain how it should have been Minfilia, that's valid, and yeah, Tataru took a while to get good at the job - but Minfilia's position as written was more a religious figurehead than a pragmatic leader. Livia sas Junius even refers to her as the Scion's priestess at one point.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

The early section of Stormblood has us seeking passage to Kugane by sea and so we go to Limsa Lominsa to avoid the obvious solution and ask the criminally underutilized Admiral Merlwyb. Instead, Tataru blackmails an on-the-spot made-up Isgardian moonlighting as a sailor to do it.

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Carvallain has been an established NPC in Limsa since 1.0 and what Tataru blackmails him with, his real identity, was something that had been hinted at for years. It was pretty much the opposite of on-the-spot made-up.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

I think I'm just complete opposite of what this plot hand over to me. Im way against ultimate sacrifices and "leaving past in the past and live onward". I don't want to fight for something I've never been a part of if I still can bring back the world i know and love. I don't want ones I love sacrifice their lifes in order to bring peace and prosperity to the future. There will be no future for me without them.

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Maybe you should try and seek out more Objectivist focused literature or something then. It seems like you're looking for works that advocate putting one's own desires above those of others, and that framework may prove useful in finding more works you enjoy. That being said, I want to make clear that bringing Minfilia back would definitely be a selfish act on the part of Thancred, or Minfilia herself. Minfilia's immortality was essentially that of an Ascian. She took over the bodies of various girls and used them to fight Sin Eaters and bring hope to the people until they died. However, Minfilia herself (arguably rightfully) was horrified she was taking over the bodies and lives of others in order to continue this cycle. The people she took over weren't blank clones or robotic shells, they were human beings with their own souls and personalities. The Ascians are more than happy to just take over bodies since they don't care about most people, but Minfilia did care. She grew weary of killing people to ensure her own immortality. So she decided to go softly into the night. Thancred had a similarly selfish desire. He could gain back Minfilia...but only by killing Ryne. He put his own emotional needs and satisfaction over the life of a human being. Indeed, he put his own emotional needs over Minfilia's desires, given how he advocated for her to kill Ryne even though she wished not to.

But if you wanted a story where selfish people kill others in order to get what they want, maybe try crime fiction or something ha ha.

I apologize if I came off as a bit snide or rude there. I was just trying to explain the situation in a different manner that might describe the moral conundrum the characters are facing.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Comments about Doing stuff Off-Screen

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As much as I like talking about lore and storytelling, you have to understand something important: this game is a story. One of the most basic rule of story-telling is "Show, don't tell." If something isn't demonstrated directly in the text, the onus is not on the reader to assume they're doing something useful off-screen. The onus is on the storyteller to make a character's motivations, actions, and dialog compelling. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed her as a character, but a lot of people did not.

I'd like to reiterate, this isn't about Combat Utility, this is about Narrative Utility. Characters need to have skills, knowledge, or talents that allow them to push the plot forward, or at the very least create interesting situations for scenes. Comic relief characters (such as Tataru), provide a valuable service to the plot, releasing tension when it's required. Urianger has a wealth of ancient prophecies and prior knowledge that have solved countless problems for us. Y'Shtola is an incredibly skilled and knowledgeable researcher, who provides the bulk of our explanations on how magic works. While Cid has helped us with a gunblade on occasion, his primary skills are not combat-oriented, yet most people tend to like him. Through poor storytelling, they failed to establish what Minfilia was providing from a narrative perspective, at least for a lot of players. All she really provided was...telling you where you're going next. Since she didn't personally develop a lot as a character, so a lot of players didn't get invested in her there as well.

Also, super minor nitpick: the Caravallein is actually an Ishgardian nobleman reveal wasn't pulled out their ass. That character had existed for a while, and his strange heritage was hinted at/explored in some side quests in Heavensward, and this was paid off in a minor but fun scene. Like I said, super minor nitpick though.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

There's a handful of characters who fall into this, too. Y'da is wearing half a pair of booty shorts for crying out loud. And the only reason for wearing short shorts and sabatons was for them pale, milky thighs. But I think thats just the personal preference, like I said fanservice is a common thing in SE, it just scales to game to game. Yes, maybe for a negotiator wearing such outfit is unacceptable but I liked to believe that shes wearing her "tribe" clothes. Like we didnt know much about Highlanders and Ala Mhigans back at ARR so I had a theory about her representating her country.

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While I'm not a fan of Yda (or her outfit) either (she isnt a Miqo'te, so on ') she is a puglist/monk - someone who moves around a lot during combat, so wearing a bit less clothes that could hinder your movement always made more sense to me than wearing a leather-outfit like Minfilias to a diplomatic meeting. (Also: "Others are doing it too" is never a good argument to defend something)

I also cant help but think about the following:
Who would we - and Thancred - gotten back if the real Minfilia returned? Just giving us the old 2.0 (or 1.0) Minfilia back would have been extremly bad and lazy writing, basically ignoring everything that happend to us and her since she vanished 2 expansions ago (I dont count her cameo in HW because she was more Hydaelyns Voice than Minfilia).
Lets look at what happend since then and what options she has!

First, the very obvious one: What kind of body does she get? Currently, her soul shares Rynes body while we dont know what happend to her own body (probably desolved somehow in the lifestream).
So either she ends up with the body of a 13-year old OR we get some lazy writing that suddenly turns Rynes body into and adult one as soon as Rynes soul is gone. Either way she ends up with a body that she had to take from a girl shes know for over 10 years (I think it was mentioned that Minfilia "possessed" Ryne when she was like 2 or something around that age? And I would estimate Ryne being around 13 right now). She only has this body because someone else died - if that doesnt has an effect on her, it would seem pretty wrong and weird to me. (It also seems a little weird to me that Ryne doesnt has a bigger problem with this, but after all its her body that she finally has to herself again)
This also raises the question: How does Minfilia leave the First now? The Crystal Exarch already has no clue how to transport the souls of people who have bodies waiting for them on the Source. And we can only travel because we have a strong connection with the Source - how is Minfilia in that new body gonna do that? Or are we only sending her soul back, so she can find another host?

But more importantly than that... her old job is basically gone. We agreed that we would desolve the Scions and just keep working togther without forming this organisation. We also dont need someone who negotiates with Merlwyb and Nanamo anymore - or rather: we have Alphinaud to negotiate and we dont need anyone to "introduce" us anymore. I guess she could go back to becoming this decorative figure, though - as she basically was in ARR, since, as we established: They never showed her actually doing stuff and, worse, they never showed that things were falling apart because she vanished. We gave up the name "Scions" in a way, but the story never showed that anything important was missing. No Tataru complaining that she has to take on more paperwork now, no mention of missed meetings or banquets that someone of the Scions should have attended.
So... Minfilia would come back to a world in which shes basically not needed anymore.

And she would come back changed, one would hope: She died, she lived as part of a primal/the will of the planet for we-cant-really-say-how-long, she died and died again in all the "Rynes" that came before our Ryne. She was the Voice of Hydaelyn - and now shes supposed to go back to her office to represent an organisation that was doing fine without her for the past 3 expansions (I'm counding Shadowbringers aswell here. We did fine without Minfilia and special what she was/did in 2.0 in Shadowbringers)?

And what about her and Thancred?
While we have already established that a romantic relationship between the tqo is out of the question, lets just assume it isnt: Thancred would have gotten a woman back who was a goddess, who lived all those lifes and who died all those times. If hes lucky, she gets her old body back, If hes not and she keeps Rynes, he now has a 27 year old woman with more "age" under her belt than can actually be expressed in the body of a 13 year old girl...
I'll admit the last option sounds like it could have been intresting, but my point is: It wouldnt have been "old Minfilia". With how they set up the story in 2.55 Minfilia had to drastically change if she ever were to come back. The "new Minfilia" could have been nothing than a re-write and a replacement - just as much as Ryne.

Old Minfilia was dead with 2.55 - and the story failed to show a need for her character in the first place aswell as showing a need to bring excatly that character back.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

But if you wanted a story where selfish people kill others in order to get what they want, maybe try crime fiction or something ha ha.

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I must repeat myself, I do consider her sacrifice to be suitable to this plot as a whole, if you really want to go all the way in building this improbable spectacle of cycle of death and rebirth, impermanence, legacy, letting new life grow on the past, sacrificing something you love in order to have a better future. It is indeed all well tied if you look at it from story perspective and your later comment actually opened my eyes at it.

My claims are more about why did it have to be the poor Minfilia, who suffered from everything in this game, bad writing, unjustified hate from community, they never gave her a chance to actually redeem herself in being a good character. She had a tragic story and personality that made some of us empathize with her, and then just got rid of that character in some out of reason way by making her a vessel. For me it wasnt fair that after all this the only way they can dig out some appeal to this character is ultimate sacrifice. That it should fall on her to hold up that microcosm of Ascians and Shards. She deserved much more than this, my opinion is they were out of ideas with how to smoothly return her to the story, hence why they came up with this whole "generations of Minfilias" thing and introduced Ryne as her legacy character.

And my second claim is Thancred reaction on which I already said everything that needed to be said. Again, not being crazy about this "forget the past, live onward" thing, his motivations after Minfilia passed away were quite alien to me. I couldnt understand why now he want to protect and fight for this new girl, it felt so stretched and unconvincing to me. Yes, shes not just a clone or a robotic thing, she is a human being and it will most certainly be selfish to sacrifice her but he never ever had any connections to her, again, he only recaptured her in order for his Minfilia to awake, he kept himself emotionally distanced from her and his only wish was to see his Minfilia again. I will never believe that in such short time he could come in acceptance with fact that shes dead for good now and he need to live with what remains and put his faith into this new girl. I would tolerate it much better if he would just walk away after that happen, giving up on this girl and this world as a whole. But ofc they needed him for further plot and they wanted some development so yeah, they made him into some sort of resigned saint who need nothing but carry legacy of his old Minfilia forward.

But I want to stop at "its selfish" point and ask -- why not be selfish? Its the most "realistic" attitude you can expect, anything else will be overstretched like with Thancred. And there's no need to resort to crime fiction or objectivist literature as you pointed, I can name you a few examples of this being done right and they are from videogames.

So, The Last of Us firstly. Or more accurately, Joel. I dont know if you played it, I guess you at least heard about it. Throughout Joel's story he fights and kills people strictly to survive, but there's one other thing. He sacrifices all of humanity to save one girl, Ellie. The fungus in her brain were needed to make a vaccine to save millions of infected people. To take it out would mean to kill her. But Joel chose not to save humanity but to save the only person he loved in this world. He didnt need humanity to survive because what would humanity matter to him if Ellie wont be with him. That shows that he is selfish, yes, and that he didn't even give Ellie a choice on whether she wanted to not be used for a cure. But thats what made The Last of Us story so awesome, sometimes you just cant put the world and ones you love on the same scales. You will have to choose and the most desired solution will be the selfish one.

Fang from FF13, the very franchise lol. Shes actually considered to be among the most loved characters from this game and I know how much hate FF13 got for being... linear? But we're not talking about it. Fang's primary motivation is to find Vanille, ensure she's safe and hitch a ride back home to Gran Pulse, whether that means helping the Cavalry, party of our heroes or neither. It's actually used against her, when she contemplates completing their Focus (i.e. do the opposite of your party's goal and destroy Cocooon) because it means Vanille won't become a Cie'th. It's best summarized in this line: Pulse and Cocoon can rot for all I care. I'll tear down the sky, if it'll save her. And its completely understandable, Vanille was the last person she cared for because they both lost their parents in Oerba. It only felt right that Fang wishes to fight not for the world, but for only person she loved in it. It didnt stop them from becoming a crystal together but at least they all got a happy ending in the last game.

These are two examples I can straight take out of my head, I think I can Google up even more if I want to give it some time. Also, to answer about your previous question about, what a character will it be to care only about his own wishes but not so much I can give another example. Surprisingly, Bronn of the Blackwater from GoT comes to mind. I know how much hate GoT recieved for its last season and it were pretty much justified but before Season 8 it was actually a very decent show. And Bronn is a perfect example of such character. Hes the very stereotype of a mercenary, greedy, brutal, does not shy away from dirty tricks. But at the same time, compared to the books he is friendlier towards Tyrion, even going as far as to ask Jaime to defend Tyrion when the latter is accused of murdering Joffrey. And while Bronn ultimately abandons Tyrion in both versions, he's more apologetic about it. He also has some genuine friendship with Podrick, which wouldn't be in character for the colder book counterpart. He even genuinely cares for Jaime, ultimately risking his life to save him from being incinerated by Drogon, and then dragging him off the bottom of a lake to safety. He has his own codex and sense of morality, though yes at the end of the day he always put his needs above others. And what did it brought him? Well, he came up being one of few characters to actually come out of it with his head on his neck, he became the most wealthy man in all Westeros, he finally got his castle, and he got a position in a Small Court.

So I think selfish can be done right if you want to put some effort in it. SE decided not to and quite frankly, ShB is not about such choices I guess.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

All she really provided was...telling you where you're going next.

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I find it really funny how you supposedly didnt read any of my arguments about Minfilia not only being there to tell you where you going next. She actually does work and researches. And why you cant wrap your head around the fact that you dont need to show everything to make a good story is beyond me, look at Dark Souls franchise for example. The only story you have there is just simple hints you get when reading description of items and a tiny bit of plot that coming from few cutscenes. That's all. And people still consider Dark Souls to actually have a good story. And also, if you can read so deep between the lines to find correlation between Ryne and Minfilia and Ascians and their Shards, it amuzes me how you couldnt get that Minfilia were actually responsible for almost every victory you have during your battle with primals.

On the point of Carvallain, I never given too much attention to side quests so didnt know that he was actually a known person. So yeah, maybe I rushed my statement a bit.

The only thing I have to add is, even if Minfillia had been better received by the western player base, assuming the story went the same way regardless it would have been very out of character for Minfillia to take away the girl's choice in her right to live. Her actions of acting as an Ascian in taking over the lives of previous girls was already borderline but it was shown it was taking its toll on her, that she did NOT want to do it anymore than she had to. She didn't want to do it again but knew that her powers were needed to help save the First, Ryne ultimately wanting to live was for sure a relief to her. She didn't have to take another life after all.

Thancred as well, while in the flashback he probably did want her back more than Minifillia/Ryne by the time the WoL/D got to the First he wanted her to live, but he is...not great at communicating plus the fact that he wanted her to make her own choice instead of going along with what he wanted just because he told her. Which again comes down to bad communicating since if it hadn't been for the WoL/D and even more Urianger she probably would have sacrificed herself instead.

TL;DR Minfillia wanted this outcome, trying to say she should have been more selfish goes against her character and speaks to how little you cared about her character even in comparison to those who didn't like her.

Edit: As well, as someone who did in fact like Minfillia and didn't mind the trip back to the Waking Sand and all that: Minfillia did more in HW and SHB than all of ARR despite appearing less. Her character was used to much greater affect in what probably at best takes up an hour of screen time combined between the two than the much longer amount of time she had in ARR. Can't speak for Legacy though.

Honestly Minfilia would have been better received by the fanbase if her writing was better. The character idea is solid, but the writing is so godawful as to turn even a positive basis into a net negative. Ryne is in every way a better written character in spite of being essentially a soft reboot. We get to /see/ her growth, we get to experience the story with her at our sides and how it all affects her on a personal level. We're not told she doubts herself and thinks she would be better off being consumed by the original Minfilia, we're /shown/ it. With an entire portion of the MSQ being dedicated to her resolve in this matter and how she grows slowly but surely into a more resolved character - all without abandoning all her doubts and the basis that made her character. She's still doubtful even up until the end. Her trauma and Thancred's indelicate way of raising her these past few years haven't just suddenly gone away because the plot demanded it. She is, in essence, a character /first/ and a plot device /last/.

Minfilia on the other hand is basically a character whose entire personality, skills, and participation in the plot are told to us. She's apparently a capable leader without whom the Scions would fall apart? Except the Scions are just fine without her and seem to be thriving with Tataru spearheading most things these days. We're told Minfilia works just as hard as everyone else, perhaps even harder, to keep the organization running? Yet every time we see her she's behind a desk telling /us/ to do her dirty work and when she isn't behind that desk she's once again being kidnapped. Which don't even get me started on as I'm still pissed about all the times we had to save her during ARR. Or the fact that she forgot how linkpearls work based on the numerous times she dragged us back to the Waking Sands to tell us something that could have been transmitted over pearl. Minfilia isn't a character in ARR, she's a plot device, and a badly hidden one at that.

The /only/ time I believed Minfilia wasn't a piece of cardboard was during ShB. We /finally/ see her as an actual character here even though she has collectively maybe twenty minutes of screentime. Yet in this small amount of time we're shown her resolve not to ruin another young girl's life for her own sake. Her resolve to keep the Light at bay and resolve to finally pass on, knowing the future is in good hands. It's like someone looked at ARR Minfilia and went 'I can fix this' and then bloody well did before sending off the character in a dignified manner. Minfilia literally got the perfect ending for her arc, one that made myself and many other people I know cry, and allowing her to come back would have absolutely cheapened that.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

My claims are more about why did it have to be the poor Minfilia, who suffered from everything in this game, bad writing, unjustified hate from community, they never gave her a chance to actually redeem herself in being a good character. She had a tragic story and personality that made some of us empathize with her, and then just got rid of that character in some out of reason way by making her a vessel. For me it wasnt fair that after all this the only way they can dig out some appeal to this character is ultimate sacrifice. That it should fall on her to hold up that microcosm of Ascians and Shards. She deserved much more than this, my opinion is they were out of ideas with how to smoothly return her to the story, hence why they came up with this whole "generations of Minfilias" thing and introduced Ryne as her legacy character.

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I mean, I think part of the problem with this argument is that it's not only Minfilia that has to deal with the struggles related to the primary themes of the expansion. Each character and sub-scenario are all based around the same themes. Y'shtola sacrifices her life to nurture the seeds of the culture she's created. A broken artisan finds solace and purpose once he realizes he is pursuing his wife's legacy. Alisae's entire storyline is about death, rebirth, and having the strength to move on. Minfilia not having to deal with it would actually be much stranger. And again, they didn't just 'run out of ideas' and had to introduce Ryne as a legacy character. Ryne as a legacy character and the 'generations of Minfilia's is the idea. They wanted to represent the idea of 'legacy', so what better way to use an old character for it? They wanted to represent death and rebirth, so what better idea than having a character seemingly literally reborn? What better way to demonstrate new life and the need to nurture it than a soul finding new purpose and identity?

Characters, are, in the end, simply tools for telling a story. Minfilia's a tool, Thancred's a tool, Y'shtola's a tool. And Minfilia's purpose as the bringer and holder of faith led her to becoming a vessel. Then it led to this chain of events. She could have gone against these themes...but what would that have meant for the story?

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

But I want to stop at "its selfish" point and ask -- why not be selfish? Its the most "realistic" attitude you can expect, anything else will be overstretched like with Thancred. And there's no need to resort to crime fiction or objectivist literature as you pointed, I can name you a few examples of this being done right and they are from videogames.

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This is the part of your argument that kind of confuses me the most. I mean, Thancred was selfish for most of the story. He put his own needs above that of Minfilia's desires and Ryne's needs. He put his own need for love and closure over the life of another human being. It's only truly at the final moment of his story, when he encounters Ran'Jit, that he finally makes his choice. Ran'jit is the embodiment of his selfish desires around Minfilia/Ryne. He too, desires love and closure, but he has no problem with robbing Minfilia/Ryne of her agency and identity. In this instance, he is the selfish person who will do anything to save Minfilia/Ryne. He would gladly jump over a mountain, kill any person, and marshal whatever power he has to do it. Thancred is set against this, and takes a different road.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

Other Selfish Examples

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I admit that I was a little snide there, and I apologize for that.

I could spend a lot of time deconstructing those two examples you mentioned (notably how Fang goes through a VERY SIMILAR ARC TO THANCRED WHERE SHE AGREES TO SACRIFICE HERSELF AND THE ONE SHE'S PROTECTING TO SAVE OTHERS!) , but it's kind of beyond the point. FFXIV isn't a story about selfish people following their desires. At least not on the hero side. It's more about people coming together to do the right thing. So like...a Minfilia storylne about Thancred selfishly following his own desires would be kind of...confusing? Like, I don't get it other than the fanboyish satisfaction of having Minfilia back.

Which might be enough to be fair ha ha.

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Originally Posted by Enla

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While I agree with you overall there is one thing I have to nitpick because it always, well, picks at my brain when people bring it up. Minfillia was only kidnapped twice, TWICE, in ARR. Again I can't speak for Legacy but given that half of her screen time there was as a child its probably would have worked better. But back to ARR.

The first time it happened was due to Livia's raid on the Waking Sands which resulted in multiple casualties both of characters we knew, could see doing things but other wise not interact with, and those who were important at the time to our character. The main Scions all survived but over half were kidnapped ALONG SIDE Minfillia, with Yda managing to escape and the only reason our character and Y'shtola were not in danger of that was due to being away on the Titan business. Of said captured Scions Minfillia also took the burnt of the torture inflicted on them in between their capture and rescue.

The second time was by an Ascian, which at the time we had only faced one and needed Hydaelyn's full out blessing to defeat, and this time she had just had to have us cut off so she could regain some of her power. Add onto the only reason we even defeated him was because the mortally wounded Moenbryda gave us the power-up we needed to do it and this situation could have been very different. By the end of HW things could have been different but Nabriales could have captured any of the other Scions and the outcome would have been the same at that point in the game.

...Like I said its a nitpick, people make it seems like she was kidnapped constantly and she just wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

While I agree with you overall there is one thing I have to nitpick because it always, well, picks at my brain when people bring it up. Minfillia was only kidnapped twice, TWICE, in ARR. Again I can't speak for Legacy but given that half of her screen time there was as a child its probably would have worked better. But back to ARR.

The first time it happened was due to Livia's raid on the Waking Sands which resulted in multiple casualties both of characters we knew, could see doing things but other wise not interact with, and those who were important at the time to our character. The main Scions all survived but over half were kidnapped ALONG SIDE Minfillia, with Yda managing to escape and the only reason our character and Y'shtola were not in danger of that was due to being away on the Titan business. Of said captured Scions Minfillia also took the burnt of the torture inflicted on them in between their capture and rescue.

The second time was by an Ascian, which at the time we had only faced one and needed Hydaelyn's full out blessing to defeat, and this time she had just had to have us cut off so she could regain some of her power. Add onto the only reason we even defeated him was because the mortally wounded Moenbryda gave us the power-up we needed to do it and this situation could have been very different. By the end of HW things could have been different but Nabriales could have captured any of the other Scions and the outcome would have been the same at that point in the game.

...Like I said its a nitpick, people make it seems like she was kidnapped constantly and she just wasn't.

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It's a fine nitpick! I definitely forget some times, like now lol, and thank you for the clarification! You're right it only happens twice, but in a way it kind of feels like more egregious in a way because of how much of a non-character if that makes sense? As if you can see the plot reason behind it and because the plot wheels are laid so bare for all to see if feels more annoying than it should be. At least I think that's why I often think she was kidnapped more than she actually was.

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Originally Posted by Enla

It's a fine nitpick! I definitely forget some times, like now lol, and thank you for the clarification! You're right it only happens twice, but in a way it kind of feels like more egregious in a way because of how much of a non-character if that makes sense? As if you can see the plot reason behind it and because the plot wheels are laid so bare for all to see if feels more annoying than it should be. At least I think that's why I often think she was kidnapped more than she actually was.

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It's all fine, and yes I get it. Its the sort of thing that if you already don't like the character for whatever reason will just NOT help at all with turning it around, while at best being a neutral thing for those who do like the character. Plus memes can make things go out of control, like the ones about Jean Gray or Zero dieing all the time.

I think a lot of OG-Minfillia's issues are the result of her being very much a classical Final Fantasy heroine, in the style of Rosa, Lenna, and arguably Terra. We're told they're really damn important, yet outside of mechanical battles (which Minfillia is never part of) they have limited impact on the plot as characters (as opposed to impact as living plot device). Their importance is often more because of either what they are or to whom they are supposedly dear (Cecil, Locke, Thancred), rather than who they are or the results of their own agency.

Also, thank you so much to the user who brought up that the ShB Minfillia plot is a microcosm of the cosmic-scale conflict. Saved me having to write my own, likely less concise, wall of text on the matter.

I'll say that I did like Minfillia in ARR's 2.0 storyline.

It's just that as time went on, she began to wear at me. It's hard to believe that the same woman that threatened to commit suicide to get back at her captors is the same one that has the relevance of "holds the magic stick" in the penultimate trial.

And then the Pre-Heavensward cutscene happened, and I despised her for ignoring her friend's sacrifices and just sitting down on the ground, leaving you to carry on the whole burden AGAIN. Going back and watching the cutscene again, apparently that's when Hydalean told her "I need you to do this thing for me", but that was a "blink and you'll miss it moment", and the damage was already done. Come Shadowbringers, and it's even worse, because not only is she tarring Thancred's character with his loyalty (or more obsession) to her, but she's been possessing girls to send to their death against the Sin Eaters, like a reverse Ascian.

I never felt sad to see her go. I felt sad for the people that were sad to see her go. That is NOT the mark of a good character.

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

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Originally Posted by Sammix87

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

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I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that after the end of ARR and the loss of his use of aether he's also pretty much stopped going after anyone, in part because he's usually busy doing his spy work/raising and training Ryne while on the First. His "conquests" are brought up but usually to rib at him more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

While I'm not a fan of Yda (or her outfit) either (she isnt a Miqo'te, so on ') she is a puglist/monk - someone who moves around a lot during combat, so wearing a bit less clothes that could hinder your movement always made more sense to me than wearing a leather-outfit like Minfilias to a diplomatic meeting. (Also: "Others are doing it too" is never a good argument to defend something)

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Pants work just fine for male pugilists. They would look absolutely ridiculous in her shorts. Unless you're willing to concede that by virtue of wearing pants they're at a disadvantage, I don't really understand what you're getting at.

As about how she can come back, well, theres no need for her to go back to her position, especially considering that now shes "trapped" in First and with Scions being so scattered. She could be what Ryne is doing now, help us fight Lightwardens. Yesh, she could actually fight! Like I mentioned before, now shes gained wisdom of countless Minfilias before and who knows what kind of powers she might have achieved. I dont want to speculate much about it but I strongly believe that if they wanted to put some effort in it it could be a strong comeback. They just wanted to give everyone an adorable character instead of hated Minfilia and they based their whole world on "let past be in the past" thing which putted an end to her return.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

As about how she can come back, well, theres no need for her to go back to her position, especially considering that now shes "trapped" in First and with Scions being so scattered. She could be what Ryne is doing now, help us fight Lightwardens.

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I mean, they could have brought her back for certain. I'm not denying that fact, but what would be the point other than bringing back a character? What greater thematic point would they be making with her resurrection, or what narrative purpose would it serve? What would be the resurrected Minfilia's new role in the story?

I'm very excited to hear the answer! This sort of theorycrafting is super enjoyable to me!

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Still she gets much more flak that what her writing deserves.

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Try not to confuse character hate for the hate of how they are handled. I dare say that a hefty portion of people probably don't genuinely 'dislike' Minfilia in a literal sense, but most would certainly hate how she was handled. She was always pleasant, friendly, caring, with a touch of tragedy, but she was ultimately Princess Plot-Device, a veritable Princess Peach from Mario. Worse, even. A nice leader-lady who gets captured on a regular basis purely to drive the plot, never really fighting [literally, and very rarely even with words], before yet again sending you off on another errand. She deserved every shred of flak. That is not how you build an interesting character. You COULD if there were some other redeeming features, but unfortunately, being 'really nice' and being a 'leader' and having a tragedy in their lives in and of itself only goes so far. I can write something with more depth on a square of toilet roll with my eyes closed.

"Unjustified hate?" It is justified for reasons countless people have tirelessly explained, one of which includes her presence in a different game where they managed to annoy people via different reasons over time. She just wasn't popular (at least not here), on top of all the issues associated with her handling.

The issue is you're trying to defend her virtue like she's an actual person. Reality is she's a tiny cog in a content-web owned by a business that makes money from telling stories through games. They could have very easily just offed her with a much smaller whimper, yet despite how poorly she was handled up to ShB, her conclusion was good, just, and relevant. You couldn't have asked for better on such short notice with the little they had to work with, not without time and build, leading to a questionable payoff that needs to convince too many people of its worth.

We're currently now in the 3rd expansion, 4th if you include 1.0 to ARR, and next to nobody has much good to say about her due to the handling. That isn't unjustified hate, that is a majority of people unified in a particular assessment, with you being one of the very few voices in disagreement to it. If you attempted to refine her, it'd require a mostly different character to what she has been represented as for years, which means a hefty building period. Instead, they've managed to recycle her in a relevant way (and without too much fuss in between), and given us a new likeable character with far fewer flaws in the process, who will no doubt be your window into future Minfilia mentions or antics should they arise in the future of the story, ie. Minfilia isn't 'gone' gone. Fantasy games such as this are very easily capable of throwing curve-balls on a whim.

Note that I do not dislike Minfilia as a character - I dislike everything and anything about how she was utilized, ShB aside.

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Originally Posted by Antoine_Lenheim

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Minfilia has always been my favorite character (though Feo Ul definitely solidly competes now), and I was really upset when she was "killed" in Heavensward. I'd been hoping for her to be returned to us as well, and so it was really disappointing for us not to truly get her back. That said, I never got the impression that any of this had anything to do with the players "hating" Minfilia. Keep in mind that they plan a lot of the story concepts and direction years ahead. And this story and send off for her was amazingly well written and they did right by her big time. As sad as I am to see her go, I'm very happy with how they did it and the interaction our WoL got to have with her right before her final ending.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

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A lot of gross mischaracterization here. Aside from placing her somewhere extremely out of the way and making us walk there to speak with her frequently (something Urianger is far more of a problem about), they utilized her quite well throughout ARR. She was no more meant to fight than Tataru was and having her not participate in fighting was completely appropriate. She was also only captured twice in all of 2.0-2.x. I won't say she was handled perfectly, but there was nothing hate-worthy in how she was handled. Despite the jokes about "Pray return to the waking sands," I never got the impression that anyone actually hated anything about her aside from the location of the Waking Sands, which again, is more problematic with Urianger than with Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

A lot of gross mischaracterization here. Aside from placing her somewhere extremely out of the way and making us walk there to speak with her frequently (something Urianger is far more of a problem about), they utilized her quite well throughout ARR. She was no more meant to fight than Tataru was and having her not participate in fighting was completely appropriate. She was also only captured twice in all of 2.0-2.x. I won't say she was handled perfectly, but there was nothing hate-worthy in how she was handled. Despite the jokes about "Pray return to the waking sands," I never got the impression that anyone actually hated anything about her aside from the location of the Waking Sands, which again, is more problematic with Urianger than with Minfilia.

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The thing - at least for me - is that Tataru tries to do something. She is an active character whos actually shown working towards our common goal, by picking up jobs, even trying to become someone who can fight even if she fails.

Minfilia does nothing. Or at least we dont see her do anything, we're just being told that shes doing all the important stuff like talking to people (...in a pink leather outfit, excatly what a diplomant should wear...) but we never see her being useful. We're just told she is and now we're supposed to believe that.
For Tataru and Urianger we're being shown that they're useful - or that they're at least trying to overcome their weaknesses, specially in Tatarus case. That little lalafell doesnt has to be a fighter, just how Minfilia doesnt has to be one. But I would have liked to see her try. Shes got that dagger from Thancred and we dont see her doing anything with it - not even cutting an apple for one of the Doman Refugee kids. I cant respect Minfilia as a leader because she never seems to leave her office (I think we see her leave it once, at the end of ARR? And well, when we moved) and only commands everyone else to get their hands dirty. She doesnt has to be a fighter, but if they had given her something useful to do besides giving us our next quest I would have been way happier with her - give her a little garden where she grows food for the Scions! Let her be the one to teach Tataru how to mine! Let her strike a deal with Rowena so she can craft weapons or tools using the forge!
She doesnt has to fight, she only has to something.
But she never did.

Ryne is probably the best character in this expansion (Others may say the Crystal Exarch but to each their own). I can relate to her and there is good character growth and development for her which I really enjoy seeing.

Good job on developing a character with depth, Devs.

Minfilia 1.0, on the other hand, only seems to know how to command and make speeches but didn't seem to help or do much. Her willingness to help seems to be just delegation of the tasks to either the warrior of light or one of the Scions, as depicted in this fighting game scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuELXU0OEs4).

Things did improve when she became the Oracle in HW where she brought the Warriors of Darkness to their World to fend off the flood.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

A lot of gross mischaracterization here. Aside from placing her somewhere extremely out of the way and making us walk there to speak with her frequently (something Urianger is far more of a problem about), they utilized her quite well throughout ARR. She was no more meant to fight than Tataru was and having her not participate in fighting was completely appropriate. She was also only captured twice in all of 2.0-2.x. I won't say she was handled perfectly, but there was nothing hate-worthy in how she was handled. Despite the jokes about "Pray return to the waking sands," I never got the impression that anyone actually hated anything about her aside from the location of the Waking Sands, which again, is more problematic with Urianger than with Minfilia.

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One of the facilities I see stated in here is that it's assumed that because a character is hated he/she is killed off. There were likeable characters in various parts of FFXIV in its entirety that I saw killed off that I personally liked. While I said earlier there's nothing wrong with doing away with a character that isn't working. There were characters that WERE working also done away with.

As far as if she did anything or not, I think it was described a few times that her character that did things that exasperated (asking us to come to explain something already communicated via LS for example?) the dislike of her. That doesn't mean she was killed off because of player hatred. Unless someone can find the source of that?

I will say one thing that bugged me throughout the game but it was MINOR. Her ARR outfit didn't look like anything that was part of the realm we were in. It was just so strange - granted it was striking, pretty and all that but I never felt it fit within the story as odd as that sounds and actually found it distracting. Granted we have more funny glamours and outfits and now 1 NPC is wearing a pig head...but I don't think he was meant to be taken as seriously as Minfilia anyways.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well the solution for returning the Scions back to the source is already mentioned being....

that Exarch is planning to awaken G'raha Tia in the source version of Crystal Tower so he can learn to return their souls back to their body at the end of 5.0. However, he has to learn how to master the powers of the Crystal Tower to perform the Summoning skill Exarch has.

This will of course lead to events in 5.1 involving events in the Source.

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Is this actually confirmed somewhere? Or is it just some people interpreting his line at the end of the MSQ and that's it? If the shot had then cut to somewhere else and showed younger G'raha awakening or CT machinery buzzing to life or something, I'd agree. As it stands, though, I don't think he was actually talking to anyone but himself there. It sounded like an "Alright, <refers to self in 3rd person>. Time to go to work!", self-motivational pep talk.

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Originally Posted by Sammix87

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

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NieR Gestalt is proof that it's the perfect way to go.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

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I was always in love with Minfilia's outfit. I wanted it for my character for the longest time.

My friends and I joke about the Pray Return To The Waking Sands thing, but I always was happy to go see her.

For the person who said she never did anything, her role was one where we wouldn't get to see a lot of it because it'd be boring to watch. Alphinaud even comments on how much behind the scenes work she had to do to make everything work and how unprepared he was for that. And Urianger did nothing except continue to force us to trek back to the Waking Sands long after everyone else had moved to Mor Dhona until 3.x, then he went back to the Waking Sands until 5.0.

It's fine for people not to be fond of Minfilia, but she is absolutely not deserving of hate.