Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

There is a fair amount of optimisation compared to the other jobs, and likewise if you can't see that i can't help you either. I'm glad i can appreciate smn again and have fun with it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

There is a fair amount of optimisation compared to the other jobs, and likewise if you can't see that i can't help you either. I'm glad i can appreciate smn again and have fun with it anyway.

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Where? Where is the optimization? Because it certainly isn't in Aetherflow usage, that's pretty much blow on CD, since being a 30sec CD doesn't really line it up with anything of note and with the uses combined with the 5sec CD means that we can't line it up for an explosive burst with Trick Attack, which would be cool. It's not in Egi Assault as those do pretty much no damage and are very heavily prone to clipping and erroring in such a way that makes actually optimizing their use next to impossible. It's not in Trance/Bahamut usage for reasons that pretty much everyone else gone over. Ruin II versus Ruin III usage? Maybe? Because that's pretty much it. Now if you would deign to point out where the optimization points that you're seeing are, I'd be glad to give them a test.

Okay, there is a lot I want to comment on so this might be a bit large

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

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1) It did feel annoying the first hour i played but then was okay.

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For me - its an absolutely clear regression from 4.0 SMN. It will continue to be "annoying" for me all expansion long.

In 4.0 you didnt have to have a target to refresh AF and now you do. Improving this is simply beneficial for Summoners in general. I'm sure no-one finds it fun that we CAN'T refresh AF if we have no target or we have 1s left on the cooldown but the mob pack just dies. This is not fun and feels unnecessarily punishing.

Further down the line, we will have a set rotation for raids, and we become at the mercy of fight design AND kill speed which is dependant on groups.

Imagine this scenario: You are fighting a boss and your team is doing good dps which makes the boss trigger its mechanic early or jump away early. As a result, you no longer can refresh your Aetherflow as you previously could. Its unnecessary and simply evens the playing field across all scenarios. This was just a raid example.

But like I said, I don't think anyone genuinely enjoys not being able to refresh aetherflow without a target as its a net negative and feels bad when compared to 4.0 and the changes I'm hoping for is purely beneficial and fun.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

2) I haven't experienced any frustration regarding this matter yet because i'm constantly busy thanks to the new design the job that's including a 3 layer rotation rather than one big rotation.

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If I'm honest, this tells me one of two things.

You have not done the ex fights using an optimal rotation or you weren't as well versed in 4.0+ SMN as I was. The reason I say this is that in Titania EX, you are immediately blocked from doing Phoenix trance on the 3 mobs that spawn as it is only available as the final mob is dying or with faster teams - not even up yet. As a result, the boss goes untargetable whilst its summoning the bigger versions of the adds. Unless you aren't playing optimally, you will have phoenix trance be delayed here and as a result, forcefully have your cycle delayed.

So whats the difference from 4.0+?

Previously, you were soley dependant on Aetherflow meaning you could spend all your stacks and "rush" a use of a DWT or Bahamut. As a result, in the above Titania EX example, we wouldnt have had to "wait" until FBT came back up. We could have rushed it and got its full use without delaying our cycle. Furthermore, our Aetherflow would never have been delayed in such a manner as we simply pressed it to generate stacks and keep our cycle ticking. This gave us incredible flexibility and choice that demonstrated player skill via having the knowledge of knowing that you could rush Phoenix and get its full duration off without delaying your summoner cycle.

With the current iteration of Summoner, we are at the mercy of fight design when we previously were incredibly strong regardless of fight design (our downtime power was arguably the strongest)

4.0 SMN had incredibly versatility in when it wanted to deploy its trances and summons vs. the current design.

To demonstrate it, assume we use 3 Festers

00:00 - Aetherflow + Dots
00:12 - DWT active after having used all 3 Festers
00:28 - DWT Ends and Bahamut active
01:00 - Aetherflow

Lets assume it takes anywhere from 12-15s to use 3 stacks (it can be rushed to be faster). As DWT previously restriced the use of Aetherflow in 4.0+, we had to use these stacks before using DWT. DWT lasted 16 seconds (?). Our Aetherflow was back in exactly 1 minutes time. This means we had 1:00 - 00:16 - 00:15(assume worst case) = 00:39 seconds of leeway to use DWT whenever we wanted without disrupting our cycle.

The current system forces us to use DWT on CD if we want to maintain our cycle. This is a regression from 4.0 where we had far more leeway for optimal use of our abilities.

In dungeons, this is undoubtedly worse too.

Previously, you just pressed aetherflow on CD if it was up as a pack of mobs died and you continued your cycle. I was well versed in abusing summoner in dungeons due to this fact. This means you could DWT whenever you spent your stacks and when you thought it was optimal.

Currently, if a pack of mobs are dead, you cannot simply press FBT/DWT and continue you cycle. This forces you to wait until the next pack of mobs and thus delays your cycle for however long that takes (including gathering all the mobs into a big pull). This is just straight worse in general and is hopefully self-explanitory. But incase it isn't: you lose uses of demi summons and aetherflow uses with 5.0 more than you ever did with 4.0+ SMN.

I raid a hell of a lot so I'm very knowledgable in how this was best used and why our current iteration is so much worse comparitively in a multitude of ways beyond being flexible. Further, the old system could have easily accomodated using Aetherflow stacks inside trances as explained at the bottom of my opening post.

To end, I will just quote Yoshida again with what he said:

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Q: Aetherflow was also separated from the Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut cycle.

Yoshida: Regaining Aetherflow was also a stress point, and now we're focusing on the actual act of summoning. Up until now, there was a bit of downtime after summoning Bahamut, so now you can continue on with summoning Firebird, doing a large summon whenever the recast time rolls around. This mechanical change was simply a result of addressing a major cause of stress

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The current system is, as demonstrated above, worse off with regards to stress points and its clear that judging from this answer that this was not the intended design.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

10) This is the reason why I like playing SMN again actually :) i actually now feel like i'm not bored compared to all the other jobs except NIN. However i can understand why some might not like it, but it's still nice that some jobs are more complex than others so there's for all tastes.

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I'm glad to hear!

The reason I mentioned it is that the change is highly divisive. We have about the CPM (casts per minute) as a bard does but nothing comes close to Ninja.

My only issue with complexity is when we compare DPS of other jobs against one another whilst ignoring complexity. If a job was very hard to master, had several nuances that you had to become accustomed to and account for whilst another job was straight forward and did near equivalent dps, would you be happy?

For me? Personally thats a big no. If a job is pretty complex to play optimally, and depending on how hard the pitfalls are for losing dps, it would be incredibly unfair if they offered equivalent dps than a job that does the same dps but is much easier to execute and didnt have the equivalent pitfalls.

I'm all for complexity and difficulty and opportunities for players to flex their mastery of a job (ie. 4.1+ SMN when DWT/AF usage was more flexible) - I just want it to have some semblence of reflection in my dps when compared to other jobs vs. only other players of my job. This is because, the easier one with less harsh pitfalls would prove to be the more popular choice for a variety of reasons besides its ease of play that results in equivalent dps. This is probably a more nuanced discussion however so I'll stop there as its besides the point.

In the end, this style of play is VERY different to 4.0 SMN and is something I'm already accustomed too, but it still needs to be iterated on via instant feedback for generating Ruin 4s on button press rather than on pet execution etc. My only concern is that when a job gets too complex and too difficult, there is a gulf in class between the players who know hot to execute it vs. those that dont and when we compare them to "easier to play" jobs that offer the same dps, the harder/more complex class serves to be less popular as the effort to reward isn't really there. Most jobs were made easier or given more tools to make their jobs easier in general in 5.0. SMN was sent in the other direction and made harder and was one of the few jobs that this happened to.

I will have a read of the other posts in a while!

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

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However the SB smn seemed like a rough and clunky sketch of what it's become now. ShB according to me made a clearer design for smn job. All i can say it that for now i find this new design more fun to play and a lot less clunky than its SB iteration.

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Its seems SchrodingersWaffle has covered most of what I would have said, but I was hoping you could elaborate on a few bits.

In what way did you find Stormblood Summoner "Clunky" and why do you feel the design has made clearer? Could you specify the design changes that occured that achieved this clearer design? If you are speaking of the direction the job is headed towards demi summons, then I can understand you and I like that too, but the mechanics behind how we approach the summons in our rotation is what I take issue with.

I can understand if its your personally opinion, but looking back at 4.0 SMN, the stuff that was clunky there was mostly due to pets and their responsiveness i.e. Garuda Contagion. Pets were reworkeed and made to be more responsive and is a welcome change. I'm more concerned about what happened outside of the pets. I'm trying to think about what else was clunky.

1. Aetherflow was straight forward as was DWT. I don't think these were clunky. If you found not being able to use AF inside DWT clunky, then there is a solution which allows us to use AF inside DWT as stated at the bottom of my opening post. It gives us the same flexibility of 4.0 and maintains our current CPM playstyle but with more player choice/expression for how and when we want to use said trances.

2. Bahamut interacted with OGCDs - is this what you found clunky? I honestly prefer that to what he is now. He is a shadow of his former self and his "clunkyness" remains there to be seen. By clunkyness, I'm referring to how he follows you around and doesnt to want to stay put and how if you move around too much, he can "ghost" his abilities long after you've given the command for him to enkindle for example.

3. Bane was tied to Aetherflow stacks back then but is changed now - and it is a very welcome one. Not clunky either.

4. Pets and abilities such as contagion. Admittedly, pet responsiveness was a very polarizing topic and whilst I miss contagion personally, I am happy to see the improved pet responsiveness but it needs to be even more responsive than it is now. However, pets were a much smaller part and it seems you take issue with the actual rotation in itself.

5. Ruin 4 generating at a 15% chance on pet action vs. how they do now vs. Egi actions. I wouldn't call this clunky and simply a change in design. I don't mind either, but again, it was not something awfully important to the rotation.

This was by no means an exhaustive list, but I'm having trouble understanding what exactly has changed that you do not find clunky anymore.

If its simply the Ruin 4 change or pets changing, then you should have no issue if Aetherflow and DWT were reworked to be as they were in 4.0 as they were never clunky to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

I don't think one really ever "choose" to use dreadwyrm trance or summon bahamut. Maybe there was an illusion of choice and flexibility but once bahamut was ready, one would summon it. Using dreadwyrm instead of bahamut would be a waste a dreadwyrm and postpone the ability to summon bahamut again. The system how it's designed now remove this possibility to "waste" anything. It's just a matter of getting used to the whole thing and seeing it differently.

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There was no illusion of flexibility. This is just a fact of 4.0+ SMN. The moment you spent Aetherflow stacks was the moment DWT became active and when you were free to use it to your hearts content ie. for planned movement phases for example.

If you are referring to optimal play, I would say I have a lot of experience with this as its the most fun I have when raiding or doing any content, even dungeons. The reason why this "flexibility" was great for me was that you could easily express your player skill with smart usage of your abilities like timing bahamut summons for Add phases or saving DWT for movement phases. Its true that when you consider the case of playing optimally, there never really is a "flexible" option in that regard. You can literally spreadsheet the entire fight and, provided everything goes as planned, follow this set rotation.

However - the players and jobs you play with can affect your rotation Some teams kill stuff faster, push stuff fast, others kill stuff slow, and push stuff slow. Others use their party buffs optimally, others dont. As a result, you have different timings based on how your group performs. You cannot spreadsheet every possibility which means that this flexibility was incredibly useful when you knew how to use it regardless of how your team was to perform.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

Also still the beginning of the new expansion so no one can say they understand all of its content and gotten used to/mastered all of them.
Not liking the new smn because they were experienced with SB one? Maybe, because most of the time the more experienced you are with a job, the less easy it is to accept/understand changes and adapt. The brain being wired into the previous iteration makes it so, and it often takes more than a week to adapt to new things. Especially if it's one's main job and they've been doing the same thing for all these years.

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Whilst its true there is a learning curve and player will need to beat old habits (I myself was used to pressing ruin 4 on cooldown) players have already begin to understand the workings of the job (some kind souls have made us an entire rotation spreadsheet to play with!). Playing the job in actual extreme fights and dungeons plainly shows that the current 5.0 SMN kit was changed to have considerably worse management over Aetherflow and having it re-linked to the cycle would only benefit us. Its because of our experience with 4.0+ SMN that the problems with 5.0 SMN are so glaring as we are able to immediately identify the scenarios in which the 4.0 SMN wouldn't suffer from.

When you go from being able to consistantly refresh aetherflow and the only barrier being your own attention span, to now requiring to be in combat AND having a target, its clear as day to see which system was plainly speaking - better.

When I was previously able to go from pack to pack in a dungeon without a pause in my summoner cycle in 4.0 to now being forced to pause the cycle and lose uses of DWT/FBT/Bahamut over the course of the dungeon at the mercy of the tank and/or team, it is clear as day to see which system was better.

Regardless of what system is being used, I am absolutely using it as optimally as I think I should at this current point in time. Without statstics and logs to back me up on this front, I will have to wait a while to present the data.

But my main point is, it is due to our extensive experience with 4.0 SMN that we understand where it lacks when compared to 5.0 SMN.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

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In fact, I think you will find that the more experienced someone is with summoner, the more they tend to dislike the 5.0 changes because they have a full understanding of all the liabilities the new design contains.

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I am in agreement with this personally.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

]However it's inaccurate and certainly not a fact to link disliking and fully understanding the new design.

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They were commenting on the liabilities in particular, but besides that, a lot of work has gone into understanding the rotation of the new summoner and those well versed in 4.0 will understand the nuances of where this new job is strong and where it is weak. They were stating that our experience with 4.0 SMN allows us to see the situations in which the design of the 4.0 SMN systems are superior to that of 5.0 SMN as I've already mentioned above with Aetherflow and DWT and previously in my other post. I'm not sure what more I can say on this topic.

I'm glad you're enjoying the new summoner, but I hope you can see that there are areas in which it can absolutely be improved.

If you are opposed to these changes, please could you explain why you are opposed to them in more detail as I only see benefits from the change with regards to my change suggested at the bottom of my opening post.

I guess since I've been a summoner since '13 I have the luxury of watching the job evolve and change over the year. With every change came hardships. 4.XX came with a well defined rotation but also introduced Aetherflow lockout which people hate to this day. The problem isn't Aetherflow because it is just a resource to use Fester and Painflare again. Trance on the other hand is making it feel off due to Demi-Phoenix being tied to FBT while Demi-Bahamut can be cast anytime.

So in 4.0 the rotation was as follows (Please note this is the basic outline and doesn't involve optimization):
Aetherflow > Fester > Fester > Fester > DWT, Aetherflow > Fester > Fester > Fester > DWT, Demi-Bahamut
(The rotation was clear but also had it's faults. If the mob jumped prior to casting DWT you would be stuck waiting to start rebuilding AF. You could also use DWT right after a jump wasting the dps. True you could save your DWT but that would also put off casting Demi-Bahamut. Also Demi-Bahamut was tied to Aetherflow requiring you to wait until it was ready for maximum output. As in all things, the fight design dictated the flow of rotation and DPS output).

In 5.0 The basic rotation is (Note I added sub rotations due to the nature of the design):
DWT > Demi-Bahamut > FBT/Demi-Phoenix
-Energy Drain > Fester > Fester > Energy Drain > Fester > Fester
--Egi Enkindle > Egi A1 > Egi A2 > Egi A1 > Egi A2

(It is clear the devs intent here by making it a simple rotation and add freedom with sub rotations. The problem is things just aren't lining up right. You have short gaps in some spots and long gaps in other. It seems you want to try and keep the base rotation from 4.0 but also free Aetherflow from that system.)

My proposal would be simply this:
Make Trance a continuing flow; Dreadwyrm Trance would unlock Dreadwyrm II that summons Demi-Bahamut which would unlock Firebird Trance that summons Demi-Phoenix. Make it a 40s recast time and the trance last for 20s giving you a 2 minute rotation.

We're at the saddest timeline folks.

We're bad in EX fights relative to the other jobs, but let me draw your attention to more casual content:

Summoner in Stormblood:

https://imgur.com/a/KKfJMHZ

Summoner in Shadowbringers:

https://imgur.com/a/TD0S7n5

When you do less AOE dps than a red mage whilst having to jump through more hoops! Look at that fall from grace. I don't think I've ever seen such a big drop before. Thankfully, Dancer and Ninja are there to break our fall. God bless.

If it wasn't already clear, my points in 1) and 2) are two of the main reasons this has happened besides obvious number issues. We're weak relatively speaking to the other jobs.

K, but a lot change between 4.5 and 5.0 in terms of Dungeons. A lot of the DPS finally got good AoE to deal with trash mobs. DPS are no longer restricted by TP to use their AoE. Besides, the true measuring stick for DPS has always been trial and raids, not dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

K, but a lot change between 4.5 and 5.0 in terms of Dungeons. A lot of the DPS finally got good AoE to deal with trash mobs. DPS are no longer restricted by TP to use their AoE. Besides, the true measuring stick for DPS has always been trial and raids, not dungeons.

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You can check the EX raid statistics too. This is Titania.

That said, I would like an explanation as to why a class who was previously stronger or equal to that of Blackmage's AOE prowess is now almost rock bottom? Its the biggest drop I have observed to date. There is FAR more setup required to deal good aoe dps on SMN than is required for other jobs who simply press 1-2 button combos for MORE dps. This should be a genuine concern.

https://imgur.com/a/hPKAwBx

I'll also make it clear that these EX fights are not kind to melee. They lose uptime in a myriad of ways. So their DPS will just get better if they are allowed full uptime.

Yeah no, I don't care how they do it at this point, but they need to do two things with SMN asap:

1 - Buff their damage (those numbers are atrocious and devotion doesn't make up for bs).

2 - Make the class more simple and straightforward to play.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

That said, I would like an explanation as to why a class who was previously stronger or equal to that of Blackmage's AOE prowess is now almost rock bottom? Its the biggest drop I have observed to date. There is FAR more setup required to deal good aoe dps on SMN than is required for other jobs who simply press 1-2 button combos for MORE dps. This should be a genuine concern.

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Okay, then start digging into the numbers. Like I said, they buff all AoE in 5.0 so SMN isn't the king anymore. The jobs at the top have strong AoE skills now which is placing them higher. But putting all that aside, use this data to figure out what part of SMN is lacking and what needs to be buffed for 5.1

I would like :
AF back and needed for trances again, but with a charge of 2 to eliminate this "gate" feeling
Bahamut Trance and Bahamut merged to work like phoenix. That way you only have 2 steps to do in a minute : stacks expenditure, then 20 sec trance.

That would streamline and remove some clunkyness, but it would indeed extend ruin spam time. Maybe put AF on 45 secs ?

Judging by fflogs phoenix and bahamut are like 8-9% of SMN damage each... how about I dunno... take all that 70% of other damage and put it into demi-summons? Just a thought...
Regarding aoe dps... It does feel weird when you think how SMN aoe works compared to other classes aoe... But personally I didn't see people out dpsing me in dungeons except BLMs
Do we even know it's calculating proper damage for SMN?

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Yeah no, I don't care how they do it at this point, but they need to do two things with SMN asap:

1 - Buff their damage (those numbers are atrocious and devotion doesn't make up for bs).

2 - Make the class more simple and straightforward to play.

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If the devs want to keep egis, just straight up rip aetherflow out as a mechanic for Summoner and transfer all of that damage to the egis and egi assault, possibly taking some and throwing it into Ruin, and possibly give SMN a charge mechanic on Enkindle so it's easier to use it at the correct time in a rotation.

We can keep a weirdtiming on boss fights with not being able to trance, just as long as it stops breaking the rest of the rotation. And the easiest way to do that is to delete aetherflow and merge the potency into the pets and summoner elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Okay, then start digging into the numbers. Like I said, they buff all AoE in 5.0 so SMN isn't the king anymore. The jobs at the top have strong AoE skills now which is placing them higher. But putting all that aside, use this data to figure out what part of SMN is lacking and what needs to be buffed for 5.1

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You don't have to start looking too hard really.

1) We cannot use Energy Drain without a target or outside of combat when we previously been able to before. If we instead had old aetherflow with 4 stacks, we would more readily be able to use 4 painflares for DPS without losing uses to dumb things like mobs dying or tanks taking too long between pulls.

2) We are forced to delay our cycle between pulls to to the changes with to DWT/FBT now being the abilities which continue our cycle as you wouldn't use FBT as a pack of mobs were about to die or are dead. Previously, we could continue to "hold" FBT/DWT when Aetherflow was the only ability that decided our cycle.

2) Painflare numbers were reduced by 30 potency. 180 -> 150. AOE nerf here.

3) Deathflare was nerfed by 40 potency and changed to a flat 50% potency for all other targets instead of 10, 20, 30 less for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th targets and so on capping at 50% for all remaining. Further still, DWT magic bonus was removed so our outbursts actually did more inside DWT previously (not counting ruination). Another AOE nerf here.

4) Akhmorn was nerfed by 30 potency (not exact potency as it was pet potency). It was give 50% flat fall off when it was before the same as deathflare. Yet another AOE nerf.

5) Our dots were nerfed from 40 potency each for a total of 80 instead of 50 potency each for a 100. This means spreading them with bane is worse. That said, Bane is now stronger when you have a lot of enemies as it no longer falls off by 80%. It now falls off by 60% for all targets. However, if you have around 1-7 mobs, you will be worse off with the new Bane (I'm not counting the fact that the new Bane is free as this obviously makes it better!). Another AOE nerf - there seems to be a trend.

6) The other jobs were given boosts to all their AOE with many receiving easy to use or simple and straight foward AOE combos. However, SMN's strongest AOEs are locked behind 60s cooldowns which we can now no longer use as much due to the change listed in 2). Further still, many of the "strong" AOE moves for classes such as Dragoon have no such AOE fall off for Nastrond/Geirskogul. Their new AOE move only has 30% fall off for example. BLM's AOE hardly got touched and in some ways, got better (15% enochian, Freeze being useful, no Foul AOE drop off changes, 2 polygot stacks for up to 3 consecutive fouls etc)

7) SMN needs to meet a lot more pre-requisities than other jobs to get out maximum AOE damage.

Consider:

Garuda egi must be used with both pet actions also being used. Slipstream (pet shadowflare) is unreliable. We cannot weave these with Outburst, our aoe spell, as it is not instant and so we are forced to use Ruin 2 a single target spell to weave them (outside of trances).

Tri-Disaster Ruination must be spread onto the targets which will boost Outburst by 20 potency. However, this is not always up.

One of DWT + Bahamut/FBT must be up with the latter. Delaying either of these between pulls means we lose uses over the course of fights/dungeon runs.

We must use "Energy Siphon", the move that exists to give us 40 potency vs. all enemies when refreshing Aetherflow. This move plain sucks, but yeah.

We must take into account mob pull timings and where we are in our rotation to maximize our damage and we easily lose uses in comparison to other classes who have straight forward 1-2 buttons.

Our "burst" AOE dps is not there and is considerably weaker than other jobs without our DWT/FBT.

There are situations where we have neither ruination, FBT or DWT/Bahamut up. Leading to us only putting out 70 AOE per GCD and however much bane does in conjuction with garuda as our best effort.

8) Brand of purgatory does 350 to the first target and 50% less to all others. It is only available every other GCD meaning it is a small upgrade to outburst compared to what it could be.

If summoner was to get all the abovee changes, it would be exceedingly strong again. It may not need all of them, but I am in full belief it does need some of them.

My top 2 choices to be fixed are 1) and 2) and then go from there. The same 2 changes that would improve our single target dps too as stated in the opening post. I cannot stress enough how much power we get from having flexible trance timings - especially when we didnt have to pause our rotational clock everytime they were ready to use.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

[B]3)Deathflare was nerfed by 40 potency and changed to a flat 50% potency for all other targets instead of 10, 20, 30 less for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th targets and so on capping at 50% for all remaining.
4)Akhmorn was nerfed by 30 potency (not exact potency as it was pet potency). It was give 50% flat fall off when it was before the same as deathflaree.

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Yeah with how much dps SMN does(assuming it's calculated correctly) I don;t really see why akhmorn and deathflare should've been nerfed...
Also... thinking about dots for buff ruins mechanic... It is literally pointless. Why not just give us full potency r3? You'll be casting it mostly on DOTed targets anyway. Yeah if you screw up it's DPS loss so what? It's just pointless busywork

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

Yeah wit hhow much dps SMN does(assuming it's calculated correctly) I don;t really see why akhmorn and deathflare should've been nerfed...
Also... thinking about dots for buff ruins mechanic... It is literally pointless. Why not just give us full potency r3? You'll be casting it mostly on DOTed targets anyway. Yeah if you screw up it's DPS loss so what? It's just pointless busywork

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You're absolutely right. I don't like the fact that they toned down deathflare and akhmorn either.

Further, the bonus potency on Ruins via dots is just another area that punishes us. There is no beneficial scenario. I presume they wanted to make losing dots more punishing and yet they invented away for us to lose dot ticks. Furthermore, any time there is a low hp add to kill, are are immediately at a disadvantage as anny attempt to dot will cost us GCDs that could have been used to deal more potency before the add dies.

Why does Summoner have to have issues right out the gate with every expansion?

It’s disheartening that the developers can’t seem to ever get it right, or close enough the first time without revisions. I thought for sure that since they labored enough thought into a partial reworking for SMN that we’d be fine, but it’s looking quite contrary.

Where is my Ruin IV?

I've tried spamming Egi Assaut I and II with all of my body and soul, yet it rarely activates. Also, does pet auto still trigger Ruin IV?

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Originally Posted by Len

Why does Summoner have to have issues right out the gate with every expansion?

It’s disheartening that the developers can’t seem to ever get it right, or close enough the first time without revisions. I thought for sure that since they labored enough thought into a partial reworking for SMN that we’d be fine, but it’s looking quite contrary.

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This is always weird cause they always have some good ideas with summoner and from yoship interview it seems like that want to do the right thing, but implementation is almost always bad... noodle code is probably why.

They always want to make SMN like overly complex and it's always an absolute mess, they should make this class a lot more straightforward like RDM or SAM, I don't know why the hell they are so obsessed in making it so hard every freaking time.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

Snip

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Hang on, Hang on. Are we discussion SMN overall DPS or just it's AoE? As I said earlier, dungeon run aren't really the measure stick for job performance. By looking at the numbers, it's clear to me Egi's and their abilities need a buff all around; Ifrit and Garuda. The Enkindle is laughable and ranks the lowest on the DPS scale compared to what it is suppose to be. EA1 and EA2 aren't fair much better, they need to be doubled or even tripled to make an impactful contribution. This is what sticks out to me anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Hang on, Hang on. Are we discussion SMN overall DPS or just it's AoE? As I said earlier, dungeon run aren't really the measure stick for job performance. By looking at the numbers, it's clear to me Egi's and their abilities need a buff all around; Ifrit and Garuda. The Enkindle is laughable and ranks the lowest on the DPS scale compared to what it is suppose to be. EA1 and EA2 aren't fair much better, they need to be doubled or even tripled to make an impactful contribution. This is what sticks out to me anyway.

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The changes to the rotation cycle is impacting both perfomances. In commenting on our contribution for AOE dps and the reasons for it, we can see those same reasons as to why we lack in the single target department. Further, my post was in response to your comment about our AOE relative to other jobs. I wanted to clarify further the changes that had occured to cause this extremely large drop. If you've been reading since earlier, I've already commented on our pitfalls in titania EX and I am no slouch when it comes to SMN both in 4.0 and 5.0 so i can readily discern the areas it is weak when we compare it to how the cycle was managed in 4.0:

New EX Primals: https://imgur.com/a/hbCXbD1

I am well aware of what is the measuring stick for job performance, but that doesn't mean its not worth highlighting regardless. Losing so much AOE damage when you consider everything we have to do to pull it off is not encouraging and is another talking point as we need to be buffed with regards to single target and AOE.

It doesn't really matter what they buff as you could simply buff single target damage on Ruin 3 and Ruin 2 potency and the single target numbers go up regardless. You can give general potency adjustments to whatever you feel like giving it too - whether its making Egi Assaults or Enkindle impactful, buffing fester damage or even our GCD/Dot damage. Buffing Egi assaults would make them feel better but the same change could be achieved via buffing the base GCD potency - that is my point. In the bigger picture, its the denial of aetherflow without a target and being in combat and the fact that our rotation is paused the minute DWT/FBT are active that is causing us to lose a lot of our dps and feel worse than any egi assaults or enkindle currently does though I do agree that they should be more impactful then their current incarnation.

The thing that sticks out to me, massively, is being denied in our ability to continue or cycle anytime there is downtime or being unable to refresh aetherflow without a target. It was a big optimizing feature of 4.0 SMN, knowing when to rush and hold aetherflow stacks and trances/demin summons. Fix this and our dps will shoot up in all areas of content.

My overall point for this thread was to point out areas in which SMN was lacking or felt bad. I leave the actual numbers game to Square Enix. However, if you are interested in looking at numbers, I point you into the direction of my old thread where I discussed some such changes to Enkindle and other abilities:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5016801

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

Where is my Ruin IV?

I've tried spamming Egi Assaut I and II with all of my body and soul, yet it rarely activates. Also, does pet auto still trigger Ruin IV?

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i noticed that if you use Topaz/Titan. Egi assault 1 will never give you Ruin 4. You have to rely on Egi assault 2. I guess i can state that is a problem. But i admit that Egi assault 2 always seems to give Ruin 4 procs with titan/topaz. I am not sure how its like with emerald/Garuda or Ruby/Ifrit But even if Topaz does not hit anything with EA2 You still seem to be guaranteed the ruin 4. I am happy losing Ruin 4 procs on EA1 with topaz because of this. But it seems it only goes off if you deal damage with the other summons. Kinda annoying

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Originally Posted by Len

Why does Summoner have to have issues right out the gate with every expansion?

It’s disheartening that the developers can’t seem to ever get it right, or close enough the first time without revisions. I thought for sure that since they labored enough thought into a partial reworking for SMN that we’d be fine, but it’s looking quite contrary.

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It's simple. They don't 100% know what they want to do with summoners (SB was the wake-up call for them on overall direction), they don't know which old mechanics they want to rip out, they don't know how new mechanics will interact with old mechanics, and so it fundamentally arrives with issues because of it.

Pair this with the dev team testing in a vacuum most likely with people who are probably closer to average than top tier on the skill level, and they'll start to let problems they might notice slide thinking the playerbase will handle the problems just fine instead of it being a core issue of the class, or <insert speculative argument here>.

These types of problems are not uncommon or unheard of, especially when you do a revision of the class. The devs aren't going to be perfect and they genuinely are trying to make the class better, they just got overzealous and missed the mark because the class keeps getting revised.

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Originally Posted by Corosar

i noticed that if you use Topaz/Titan. Egi assault 1 will never give you Ruin 4. You have to rely on Egi assault 2. I guess i can state that is a problem. But i admit that Egi assault 2 always seems to give Ruin 4 procs with titan/topaz. I am not sure how its like with emerald/Garuda or Ruby/Ifrit But even if Topaz does not hit anything with EA2 You still seem to be guaranteed the ruin 4. I am happy losing Ruin 4 procs on EA1 with topaz because of this. But it seems it only goes off if you deal damage with the other summons. Kinda annoying

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Yeah this appears to be the case - however I will note that ifrit can still "flaming crush" and also generates you an R4 proc even if flaming crush hits nothing aka the target dies before ifrit executed it.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

*snip*
These types of problems are not uncommon or unheard of, especially when you do a revision of the class. The devs aren't going to be perfect and they genuinely are trying to make the class better, they just got overzealous and missed the mark because the class keeps getting revised.

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I also think their heart is in the right place and they try to do what is best, but somehow things escape them or their understanding of how great abilities like the old Aetherflow were, stress point or not. It enabled player skill to be expressed whilst making the rotational tools that are a part of it, flexible and it allowed the cycle to continue flowing even during downtime where you could speed it up. It was a great system and I hope they realise this!

Its clear they wanted to improve SMN, but they ended up missing the mark! To quote Yoshida again:

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Q: Aetherflow was also separated from the Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut cycle.

Yoshida: Regaining Aetherflow was also a stress point, and now we're focusing on the actual act of summoning. Up until now, there was a bit of downtime after summoning Bahamut, so now you can continue on with summoning Firebird, doing a large summon whenever the recast time rolls around. This mechanical change was simply a result of addressing a major cause of stress

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The current system has undeniably been comprimised in many ways flexibility being just one aspect. Their solution for Aetherflow no longer being a stress point was to make DWT the exact same thing whilst somehow still making Aetherflow/Energy Drain even more stressful even after it has become detached from the cycle.

If they wanted to reduce the wait time before pulls in raids, the solution was simply to give Summoners full stacks after every wipe similar to how "charged" actions retain full stacks after every wipe. I'm disappointed that they have not done this, but even if you started at 0 stacks, the system with the old Aetherflow dictating the our cycle was far better.

I hope they're able to go back to the drawing board and see where they made erred with the design of the new Summoner. The new "busy work" or Egi Assault OGCDs combined with the 30s Aetherflow has been highly polarizing. I myself definately prefer having 4 stacks every 60s as opposed to 2 stacks every 30 as it allowed us far more downtime power. The Egi Assault OGCDs I don't mind as much but I'm well aware others dislike them. I wish they were more potent and more meaningful even if they had a longer cooldown to compensate.

The only thing we can do really is discuss and hopefully our voices are heard and hope for the best. I trust the team to fix our problems!

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

I want them to make bahamut more like it was in SB - basically weaving to get more WV etc. but give it unique skills like phoenix have. Then we'll have 3 mechanics DWT>DB>FBT with unique things in each. All this new r4 measuring is just meh...

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I thought about this too!

How cool would it be if Bahamut, instead of wyrmwaves, used Flare Breath from Ucob:

https://youtu.be/LupAOwPA7yA?t=1554

Or Flatten for single target. I'm sad they removed the ogcd interaction but I would have loved some new abilities for bahamut to compensate.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

Snip

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So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems. My suggest to you would be compile your thoughts, decide on specific problems you are seeing, then give specific ideas on how to fix them.

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF? I've mentioned before about granting a full 4 stack with ED every 60s. Another option would give ED/ES a build up of two stacked charges. As for Trances, I can see a ladder that builds up to Demi-Phoenix; DWT changes to DWT+Bahamut that changes to FBT+Phoenix. Or another option would be DWT unlocks FBT+Phoenix and Bahamut is still separate letting you call him whenever you need. It gives you more freedom but would be a less clear rotation.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So I mention AoE specifically because you specifically made it a point to post FFLog data related to that. Think about what is going on right now on SE's side. The mods are pouring over the thread right now up channeling our discussions. What we don't want is some dumb change like, "Oh they think AoE is weak, lets just buff outburst and everything will be okay." I know and you know this isn't going to fix any of the problems.

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You are mistaken in thinking that by mentioning simply AOE and the stats for AOE that they would only consider the AOE capabilities of our class when both the JP side and English side have been more than vocal about what our problems are. Furthermore, I am sure they are not waiting for us to post our stats when they can have a good look at what things are like from their end. The stats I posted were more for the other players of this job and others ffxiv players to understand that SMN isn't in the best place even outside of discussing mechanical changes which requires some knowledge about the job itself.

Thee main focus of the entire thread has been to discuss the mechanics that are hindering our job and, in so doing, discuss how we can fix these issues which impacts both single target and AOE. Further, I already posted our single target data in the comment discussing AOE proceeding that post. Not sure if you saw. If the conclusion they draw from reading my opening post and the proceeding comments is to buff outburst - that is entirely on their own inpetitude in understanding the job. This is why I, in addition to discussing the problems of single target, discuss the problems with AOE aswell as it is always worth highlighting.

Thankyou for your suggestion to compile my thoughts and decide on specific problems I'm seeing and give specific ideas on how to fix them. I think you'll find my opening post does exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

As for Aetherflow, Summoner isn't the only job that got hit with this pre-pull nerf. I've been trying MCH out and learned you can't charge their battery gauge or heat gauge unless in combat. Though I can't confirm due to lack of experience but I can assume a lot of the jobs were hit with this but SCH are talking about it too as well as AST. Knowing this is a hard stance by SE, what would you suggest as a work around for AF?

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My main solution was already given, but I will quote it again. This can be modified and expanded on pretty easily. The problem stems from the "must be in combat tag" associated with aetherflow and so dungeons will naturally feel worse unless they give us charges to go along with it.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

Alternatively (assuming Aetherflow is back to its original state/60s), simply pressing the button could make the Trances "Active" instead of having to spend the stacks to activate DWT etc


Example:

1. Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to DWT aka button lights up and can be used whenever.(Can spend stacks inside).
Further, the next Aetherflow becomes "Enhanced" after DWT ends for its next use. This means we can use DWT however we want for the next 60s.
2. DWT gives us access to Bahamut as before.
3. Enhanced Aetherflow (on use aka just to gain the stacks) gives us access to FBT aka button lights up and can be used whenever. (You can spend stacks inside FBT).
Note: Enhanced AF cannot be used until you have used DWT as state prior. This avoids conflicting situations.
4. Aetherflow returns to normal for next use aka it would grant DWT again on refresh after FBT has ended.

We can be funny and call normal "Aetherflow" Energy Drain and "Enhanced Aetherflow" Energy Siphon. In effect, ending DWT upgrades Energy Drain to Energy Siphon whilst FBT ending changes Energy Siphon to Energy Drain. Also, I'd hope we can use both Energy Drain/Energy Siphon without a target in combat and preferablly between trash pulls in a dungeon if at all possible.

This avoids the aetherflow lockout in trances as was the case in 4.0+. You could also use the "enhanced" Aetherflow stacks inside bahamut as all it does is change DWT icon to FBT icon on use. Just be aware that the enkindles share times between the summons. I see no downside to this.

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While true a few jobs did get hit in that department, several other jobs still require some pre-pull setup and, as I recall, the whole goal was to reduce the wait time for parties who raided and had a SMN/SCH party member. There is always going to be a pre-pull wait time regardless due to some jobs having pre-pull buffs they need to take care of. They could always add "cannot be used outside of combat" to all of these abilities and yet they all got a pass. See BLM, RDM, DNC as some examples if they want to play optimally (Sharpcast, Acceleration, Dances). Having this with SMN was no different besides a longer wait.

There is no way to know this is a "hard stance" by SE as you claim it to be. However, if there was to be one, the solution would be just to start with 0 stacks as before and use the system in my opening post that I have just quoted. Aetherflow would simply be a first weave - thats about the only change from a raiding stand point.

However, this system doesn't work as nicely in dungeons where there is no target as we cannot refresh Aether and that might be fine. Previously in stormblood, we could go through a dungeon and have 3 stacks and be able to use another 3 stacks when AF was back in quick succession if we rushed DWT for a grand total of 6 stacks used in a short time frame. As a result, I would possibly give Aetherflow 2 Charges to bring this back to dungeons, and if needed, give it a short re-cast timer so that it cannot be re-used in quick succession in the opener in a raid setting. If this seems too radical of a change, then they could do something similar to what they have done with the current DWT/FBT. DWT cannot be used outside of combat, but FBT can. If Energy Drain generates DWT and is not able to be used outside of combat, let Energy Siphon (the upgrade to energy drain as suggested in my opening post) which could now make FBT active on use be able to be used outside of combat. Another suggestion could be to basically have the polygot system for stacks. Just create button to maintain the Aetherflow time that would keep ticking to give us stacks. However this would be a big rework when a solution is more obviously generated by looking at 4.0 SMN and the suggestions already given.

The solution really is as simple as deleting Energy Drain and Energy Siphon, and redistributing their damage into other abilities. It will fully remove aetherflow as a stress mechanic and settle the class at a nice, comfortable oGCD level where it's neither too busy or too lazy.

And I disagree with Demi-Primals benefitting from oGCDs. It's bad enough they benefit from GCDs considering you can screw yourself out of a hit by not ending DB on ruin 2/ruin 4, but the old SB system of using Aetherflow during DB was unintuitive and not explained to the playerbase at all, causing wide variance in numbers due to something as basic as researching the class quite substantially to find out this quirk exists to begin with. I'm all for adding more abilities to the primals to make up for the loss of aetherflow, and it would allow stuff to be put there in turn since that's 4 buttons by itself freed up, but it shouldn't be oGCDs magically causing more wyrmwaves.

If the devs designed it right, however, they can really start compressing some bar space by making EA1/2 turn into demi-primal abilities, and it would flow in the rotation more naturally without cluttering bar space. And since EA1/2 are both on 30s cooldowns, we still have stuff to do on the rest periods, which is what we ultimately want from the class. Downtime to be downtime, uptime to be uptime, and having a solid flow to the class, which ED/ES doesn't contribute towards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

The current system has undeniably been comprimised in many ways flexibility being just one aspect. Their solution for Aetherflow no longer being a stress point was to make DWT the exact same thing whilst somehow still making Aetherflow/Energy Drain even more stressful even after it has become detached from the cycle.

If they wanted to reduce the wait time before pulls in raids, the solution was simply to give Summoners full stacks after every wipe similar to how "charged" actions retain full stacks after every wipe. I'm disappointed that they have not done this, but even if you started at 0 stacks, the system with the old Aetherflow dictating the our cycle was far better.

I hope they're able to go back to the drawing board and see where they made erred with the design of the new Summoner. The new "busy work" or Egi Assault OGCDs combined with the 30s Aetherflow has been highly polarizing. I myself definately prefer having 4 stacks every 60s as opposed to 2 stacks every 30 as it allowed us far more downtime power. The Egi Assault OGCDs I don't mind as much but I'm well aware others dislike them. I wish they were more potent and more meaningful even if they had a longer cooldown to compensate.

The only thing we can do really is discuss and hopefully our voices are heard and hope for the best. I trust the team to fix our problems!

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Ultimately what I think they need to do is just get rid of DoTs and Aetherflow entirely. Put in an ability that enables Trance instead of it being it's own CD and just rip the damage from DoTs and Ruin potency increase right out and put it into DWT, most likely by making Deathflare have mutliple uses during DWT, 4-5 by my calculations, with a new "Trance ender" with potency on par with or higher than Xenoglossy (Megaflare anyone?). And potentially upping the number of Enkindle Demi-Primal per phase from 2 to 3.

Also, hoping that ACT is broken more than i see, SMN got the short stick on the dps side. Is clunkier, i can deal with it. Still unforgiving on death, a bit less. We were at the 3rd spot before when played proberly, also conserving A LOT of utility. Now we have res and devotion, a BAD devotion. If you want to go asap for trances, you will Ruin3/ruin2 tridisaster DWT and ED devotion at best. Which means what? Devotion is up again in phoenix and it won't align ever again with other buffs. Also 5%, not counting burst phases or buffs, on a 180s windows with 15s duration means that you will bring:

- 0,416666666 % RaidDps contribution

Just leaving contagion was better than this. We lost utility and dps, buff won't align or you will lose even more dps. You hardly can align dots in buff windows, Bahamut rotation is turret mode to get 8WW and:

- Sb combined damage from garuda + bahamut was like 27%. Now, with phoenix, sicfrit+bahamut+phoenix is just 28%

Pet damage is ridiculously low, like you crit 25k and ifrit crits 3k at best. Inferno is horrible, if the initial it does 50 your total dot does 25. There is no autoattack, just a spammed low damage ability that "seems" an autoattack.

i will still play it, BUT i am pretty pissed that with perfect rotation and food and dancer i can hardly mantain a mch or drg dps. I would be MUCH MORE pissed in reaching an enrage just cause i could do 3k more with blm.
NO, THE RES IS NOT WORTH 3K DPS AS THE ACTUAL ONLY UTILITY WE HAVE NOW!
Smn is the new selfish dps job, that doesn't do selfish dps standards

The more I read this thread, the more I find out how bad the new SMN is. I was right in feeling very concerned after trying the new SMN even when people told me "It'll get better". Now that we have an idea of much damage and utility does (or lack thereof), there needs to be a change.

Yet again in another expansion, they messed up with SMN. It's clunkier, a lot less flexible, chaotic and suffers from more button bloat which is pretty backwards from what the devs intended for the battle system. Some people like it and that's okay, but the amount of effort it takes just to have less DPS than a RDM, who arguably has better utility now, isn't okay to me.

I'm hoping they do another great re-rework like SMN from 4.0 to 4.1, I really do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Incision93

i will still play it, BUT i am pretty that with perfect rotation and food and dancer i can hardly mantain a mch or drg dps. I would be MUCH MORE pissed in reaching an enrage just cause i could do 3k more with blm.
NO, THE RES IS NOT WORTH 3K DPS AS THE ACTUAL ONLY UTILITY WE HAVE NOW!
Smn is the new selfish dps job, that doesn't do selfish dps standards

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You shouldn't be matching a Machinist. MCH is a selfish DPS and should enjoy all the perks of being a selfish DPS, including being one of the top 3 DPS in the game (it's not). DRG, on the other hand, you can and should get mad about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersWaffle

Ultimately what I think they need to do is just get rid of DoTs and Aetherflow entirely. Put in an ability that enables Trance instead of it being it's own CD and just rip the damage from DoTs and Ruin potency increase right out and put it into DWT, most likely by making Deathflare have mutliple uses during DWT, 4-5 by my calculations, with a new "Trance ender" with potency on par with or higher than Xenoglossy (Megaflare anyone?). And potentially upping the number of Enkindle Demi-Primal per phase from 2 to 3.

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At this point, Summoner reasonably could have its DoTs and Aetherflow mechanic removed, but unfortunately that constitutes a minor-major rework by itself and won't happen until the next expansion most likely. That said, getting one of the mechanics removed is likely possible, since Aetherflow itself is flat out standalone and not tied into other mechanics in any meaningful way. Reworking how Aetherflow works is also possible, as well as possibly merging EA1/2 since that's minor by minor standards.

Any changes that we as a community push for should likely be focused on EA1/2 and ED/ES/Fester/Painflare specifically otherwise there's no hope of it being done before whatever expansion comes next.

iit's pheonix a ress effect would be busted so a hot should do no pun intended, summoners are not healers i agree but summoning different creatures for different situations was and forever will be the appeal of it . they could make it instead of automatic it's own button during the firebird trance after all smn has ogcd space there. though even like it is currently if they go through with the promise of more aoe dmg then it could be a factor the healers would think about like ok smn is about to do pheonix here so i don't need to heal . i agree about everything else though, we really got riped off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Incision93

Also, hoping that ACT is broken more than i see, SMN got the short stick on the dps side. Is clunkier, i can deal with it. Still unforgiving on death, a bit less. We were at the 3rd spot before when played proberly, also conserving A LOT of utility. Now we have res and devotion, a BAD devotion. If you want to go asap for trances, you will Ruin3/ruin2 tridisaster DWT and ED devotion at best. Which means what? Devotion is up again in phoenix and it won't align ever again with other buffs. Also 5%, not counting burst phases or buffs, on a 180s windows with 15s duration means that you will bring:

- 0,416666666 % RaidDps contribution

Just leaving contagion was better than this. We lost utility and dps, buff won't align or you will lose even more dps. You hardly can align dots in buff windows, Bahamut rotation is turret mode to get 8WW and:

- Sb combined damage from garuda + bahamut was like 27%. Now, with phoenix, sicfrit+bahamut+phoenix is just 28%

Pet damage is ridiculously low, like you crit 25k and ifrit crits 3k at best. Inferno is horrible, if the initial it does 50 your total dot does 25. There is no autoattack, just a spammed low damage ability that "seems" an autoattack.

i will still play it, BUT i am pretty pissed that with perfect rotation and food and dancer i can hardly mantain a mch or drg dps. I would be MUCH MORE pissed in reaching an enrage just cause i could do 3k more with blm.
NO, THE RES IS NOT WORTH 3K DPS AS THE ACTUAL ONLY UTILITY WE HAVE NOW!
Smn is the new selfish dps job, that doesn't do selfish dps standards

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As a RDM player, with the severe limitations from placed on MP for both SMN/RDM, they should both have similar DPS. We both have similar raise sustain. Embolden vs Devotion have the same cool down 2 mins vs 3, but are near equal in dps utility as is. Embolden averaging a 6% physical dps only gain, while only affecting 80% of RDMS damage for 20 seconds, vs 15 seconds of affecting everyone. SMN has no party lockout with BLM, but RDM does [with smn too for that matter. ] SMN should be on top, but not by much. They should be right next to each other.

Rezzers are just on the mid bottom of the totem pole. We wont be near the low utility classes or even most melee.

Edit: imma actually math it out, but you're right its 3 mins vs 2.

Embolden is a 2m Cooldown, Devotion 3m. Devotion is 5% flat, Embolden 6% average over 20 seconds (but obviously it's more complicated). Embolden only does physical damage and personal, devotion is all damage. And obviously Embolden is 20 seconds, Devotion 15.

Embolden is flat out the better buff unless you're running more than 1 caster DPS right now, and the fact that embolden is still physical only for support is kind of a problem due to how it enforces group composition.

So no, Summoner should not be equivalent to rdm on damage, because smn has vastly lower group utility.

now that I've read every post here's what i think o/.


1) I'd love to have bahamut and trance be one button cause it really feels bad to get 8 wyrmwaves . what id like to see is make wyrmwave and maybe akhmorn give ruin4, that way we don't have to hoard ruin 4s for bahamut to not lose potency . that wouldn't need much work to implement . as for deathflare they could just give a 3rd akh morn. I'd wish for an outburst upgrade if that's not too much to ask.

2) At this point smn feels so much better when they don't cast so they might as well remove ruin 2 and make ruin 3 instant and ruin 4 proc from ruin 3 again. we already have a different ruin 2 from sch anyways. if that happens manually reapplying dots would feel awkward and is basically giving us less stuff to do

3) Make overburst look and sound crispier

4) balancing department pls give us our aoe king status back (/TwT)/. i was reading the changes when they came out and i was devastated to seee all those potency nerfs nor could i see the reason 50% down to most of aoe bane 60% less dmg. didn't they say that massive pulls wouldn't be a thing? so where the fck would we get 7 adds . i played the dungeons, some people still do it but some also go 3 at a time in fear.

5) i dont mind the high apm if the work is complex and rewarding then i Don't see any reason why it should become more straightforward . rdm exists for that reason not everything needs to be for everyone.

6)Don't remove the dots i understand its from an era long past but it's also our link with arcanist and at this point miasma bio and ruin is associated with smn . people have used the title ruin mage in 4.0 to laugh at smn but it honestly sounds like an awesome title

7) miasma should give ruination at this point

8) giving the old aetherflow system back sounds like the best option. yes death sucked but the pros of it make up for all the cons . it also makes sense story wise now that they made trance and summon be the same thing.

9) make the egis be better. just making their abilities like they were before, not counting as ogcd but something you can weave while casting, would be great but if it created a big void were we just spammed ruin then id rather the current one . also why did we lose all those buffs but only got a 3min devotion? I'm not counting everlasting flight because as much as i like this spell to death unless they fix its problems its just another 4.0 devotion.

10) level 100 ultimate trait Unleashed : every dmg reduction per enemy removed from smns spells OwO

Even though I want it gone, I don't see DoTs getting removed from SMN unless a miracle happens. It's been SMN's most basic form of damage since launch. What they should do however is make it LESS reliant on DoTs. The Ruin spells needing both DoTs to do max potency is absolutely annoying when the job is already riddled with these damage modifiers like Ruination, DWT/FBT's magic potency buff, Egi Assaults needing to proc Ruin IV etc.

I'd love to see DWT combined with Demi-Bahamut like a few suggested. It might make SMN less punishable by death, make summoning more frequent, and cut down on the amount of time it takes to do a full rotation. I'm surprised they didn't do that when they've done it already on Demi-Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

5) i dont mind the high apm if the work is complex and rewarding then i Don't see any reason why it should become more straightforward . rdm exists for that reason not everything needs to be for everyone.

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The issue is that RDM was the high-apm caster. SMN was never really that busy. Tedious, micromanagey, but not super busy. You spent more time setting up for contagion than actually doing your burst window. RDM exists to be the high-APM finger-walking caster, and is very well set up to accomplish this role, whereas SMN is not set up to be a high-APM class, never has been, and doesn't feel especially good being a high-APM caster.

You can have complexity in a simple rotation as well. BLM exemplifies this key. Casters in general tend to be complex, even Red Mage has to make some pretty complex decisions, just not to the same degree a Black Mage does, which is fine. BLM specializes in long-term complex decisions, whereas RDM is all about rapid-fire short-term decisions that weave into a complex tapestry by the time it's all said and done.

SMN was ever somewhere between these. Any weirdness it had outside of this was basically due to exploiting mechanics (snapshotting) or micromanaging pets that are difficult to use or unresponsive for no real reason. If you stripped out micromanaging contagion due to poor pet interactions, SMN's SB rotation was fairly simple and straight forward, with a bit of flexibility thrown in.

This is what drives the divisive nature of SMN in ShB. The class is definitely improved, but they took the class, plucked it from the middle ground between BLM and RDM where it existed, and threw it up above Bard. A lot of people coming to the class for the first time like it, a lot of SMN mains from SB found the transition jarring because the class functionally plays very differently with how it feels almost exclusively because of how busy the oGCDing is. And those oGCDs aren't complex. There's very little real decision making to make on a SMN. You basically choose to hold devotion if the phasing lines up weird, and you can choose when to spend festers. You basically have no choice on every other mechanic, they either need to be spent as quickly as possible, or you're not punished for spending them quickly so there's no real reason to hold onto it, especially given how clunky the rotation gets once it does start bogging down with too many oGCDs.

The current SMN isn't that complex, it's just stupidly busy, and you can reintroduce a lot of complexity by actually removing that business.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

...the job is already riddled with these damage modifiers like Ruination, DWT/FBT's magic potency buff, Egi Assaults needing to proc Ruin IV etc.

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DWT/FBT don't buff magic potency. They removed that as part of ShB. I actually just tested it to confirm it by spamming my ruin 3, which does anywhere between 4300 and 4700 damage per hit, went into DWT, and it likewise did 4300-4700 damage without crits/direct hits. There is no advantage to staying in DWT outside of having instant cast spells (mostly) right now.