DNC Suggestions

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Yeah. Unless I'm soloing, I generally save my feathers and only use a fan dance when I have 4 feathers so I won't waste any feather procs, then spend them all during Technical Step + Devilment to get the most out of the fan dances and the buffs.

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Ah, good point. I don't think the feathers have a fading timer, do they?
I'm going to try to work like that from now on... Ugh, now, the temptation to spend the 3 extra charges... D:

Yeah, the feathers don't go away, except on like death, job change, or spending them.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Yes. Standard Finish gives you a 1,000 potency attack (with only a 50% dropoff for AOE—not a staggered dropoff like old Holy—so each mob after the first is hit for 500 potency) for 2 successful steps. So you should always use it every 30 seconds for bigboi damage each time. Overwriting the buff isn’t that huge of a deal.

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Quick correction here, but both Standard and Technical Finish are actually a 75% drop off for subsequent targets. Meaning for Standard, it's 1000 for the first hit, 250 for everything else. It's still quite substantial, of course, and you should still be using Standard Step on cooldown even on a single target (it's equivalent to slightly less than 3 GCDs to pull off, so around about 333 potency per GCD average, which beats out every single one of the single target rotation skills except for Fountainfall, which is 350), but... yeah, it's not quite *that* op.

Agreed with feathers. I generally keep them until I need a burst, then I dump them.

I want it off gcd too, but come on. Having that be off gcd, with 1000 potency every 30 seconds...
I feel a hard nerf coming.

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Originally Posted by Suniva

I want it off gcd too, but come on. Having that be off gcd, with 1000 potency every 30 seconds...
I feel a hard nerf coming.

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It's less than 400 potency every 30 seconds. The time you spend dancing, you would have done about 600 potency worth of weaponskills. If it were oGCD, you'd have to keep this in mind.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

You're locked out of weaponskills for 5.0 seconds while performing Standard Step. Therefore, you need to account for the potency of the weaponskills you would have been using instead.

Cascade: 200
Fountain: 250
Reverse Cascade: 425
Fountainfall: 475

Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall have a 50% chance to proc Fan Dance 1 (150p), which then has a 50% chance to proc Fan Dance 3 (200p). So the expected potency of each of these weaponskills is 150*0.5+200*0.25 higher than listed.

Since Cascade and Fountain have themselves a 50% chance to proc each of their flourishes, there are four possible outcomes:

Cascade(200), Fountain(250): 450/2 → 225 per GCD
Cascade(200), Reverse Cascade(425), Fountain(250): 875/3 → 291.7 per GCD
Cascade(200), Fountain(250), Fountainfall(475): 925/3 → 308.3 per GCD
Cascade(200), Reverse Cascade(425), Fountain(250), Fountainfall(475): 1350/4 → 337.5 per GCD

The average of these four outcomes is 290.625 per GCD. At a GCD of 2.41s, this is 120.6 per second.

Standard Step takes 5.0s to execute, so it locks you out of 603 potency worth of weaponskills you would have been using. Therefore, it's really only worth 397 potency per use.

(This is still a big deal; just not 1000p big.)


(Edit: I prolly should have just added all those individual potencies and divided by 12, to account for each possibility having a different length. In that case, average potency per GCD would be 300, Standard Step would lock you out of 622, and it would only be worth 378 per use.)

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Alright, thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Quick correction here, but both Standard and Technical Finish are actually a 75% drop off for subsequent targets. Meaning for Standard, it's 1000 for the first hit, 250 for everything else. It's still quite substantial, of course, and you should still be using Standard Step on cooldown even on a single target (it's equivalent to slightly less than 3 GCDs to pull off, so around about 333 potency per GCD average, which beats out every single one of the single target rotation skills except for Fountainfall, which is 350), but... yeah, it's not quite *that* op.

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bleh. This is why I don't post with no caffeine in me.

I haven't noticed anyone else complaining about having to re-do Dance Partner on the Chocobo after mounting and dismounting! It's SUPER annoying while leveling.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

I haven't noticed anyone else complaining about having to re-do Dance Partner on the Chocobo after mounting and dismounting! It's SUPER annoying while leveling.

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I noticed it, but wrote it off as a consequence of the chocobo not existing while you're mounted. Is it annoynig? Incredibly. But I don't think it's worth diverting resources to when you consider what different systems you might have to mess with to make the chocobo persist while mounted.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Another suggestion that I would like to add would be a noise effect when your Feathers reach cap. It’s seeming like it’s more prudent to hoard feathers for Fan Dance spamming during Devilment windows (for bigboi bursting on a single-target) or for AOE in dungeons (they’re really good for AOE), but to make sure you don’t overcap on them by spending one on a Fan Dance if necessary. BRD’s Pitch Perfect makes a sound when it reaches max stacks, so I’d like to see a sound like that for Feathers at max. Just to take my eyes off of my gauges a bit more.

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Alternately, show on the actual hotkey how many procs we have built up - there's even a number there, it just forever stays stuck on "1" for some reason lol. I concur that looking at the job gauge constantly is a nuisance, especially given that DNCs will already be eyeballing their hotkeys a fair bit due to how many proc actions the job has in general.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Alternately, show on the actual hotkey how many procs we have built up - there's even a number there, it just forever stays stuck on "1" for some reason lol. I concur that looking at the job gauge constantly is a nuisance, especially given that DNCs will already be eyeballing their hotkeys a fair bit due to how many proc actions the job has in general.

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That “1” there I think is just to show that it costs 1 gauge, I think. Kind of strange to add it there, since other things that cost 1 gauge (like SMN/SCH abilities) don’t have it, but I guess they want to differentiate it from FDIII, which is a proc with no gauge cost? Idk lol. But yeah, I agree that a noise indicator would be nice since my eyes are already darting between my crossbar and my feet to make sure I’m not standing in the bad like a lolDNC.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Alternately, show on the actual hotkey how many procs we have built up - there's even a number there, it just forever stays stuck on "1" for some reason lol. I concur that looking at the job gauge constantly is a nuisance, especially given that DNCs will already be eyeballing their hotkeys a fair bit due to how many proc actions the job has in general.

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I just put the job gauge above my hotbars near my character where I'm having to look for dodging aoes anyway.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I just put the job gauge above my hotbars near my character where I'm having to look for dodging aoes anyway.

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My target bar is directly beneath my character, with the Feather gauge below that, followed by Enhancements for procs and then my crossbar. Everything is pretty central, but it’s still a lot of staring at hotbars and not the arena. BRD had the same issue sometimes, but at least Minuet made a sound when you got a PP proc. I’d just like a sound for max feathers, since we hold ~3 for burst windows anyways.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

My target bar is directly beneath my character, with the Feather gauge below that

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My target bar is directly above my hotbars, with my Feather gauge directly above, to the left of my character.

as nice as that would be... we already have way too many ogcds lol

I wish we could set the gauges to hide when out of combat though.. This way I'd gladly put them in a very central place without having to worry about visual clutter out of combat.

Same for hotbars. Sometimes I think it's a good idea to use an oversized hotbar in a central position just to put abilities that proc there... But then, it clutters even more than the gauges when out of combat.

Fan dance 3 should override fan dance 1 + 2 when it procs. No need to make it have its own button and it would make those burst phases feel far more smooth.

Having been playing around in lv 80 extreme trials with DNC i have actually been grateful for the 2.5 gcd as the timing of standard and technical seemingly align well with it.

Stuff i have noted

- cds for dances start ticking the moment you press the button the 1st time, this means while your doing the moves and before you activate the dmg button it is counting down so in theory you should be waiting 25-27(ping dependency) secs for cd rather than 30s on standard step etc.

-Have once you used the dance for dmg, instantly have your gcd reset atm its really really tight to not clip

-FD3 seems to have a delay on registering(may just be me) so from what i've been doing for double weaving FD3 then FD1 or FD2 not the other way round

-Espirit can generate far more quickly in 8 man content than you can use Saber Dance, i feel this should be an ogcd with 1s recast because it hurt me seeing 100 espirit knowing i might be losing some

-En avant needs to work like aetherial manipulation, you are not registered at new position until you do another move meaning server tick delay :/

-Curing Waltz needs a bigger radius it is too small, potency is fine if get double heal, if not it loses a decent amount of usability

-Improvisation should give a flat number not a random number(from what i can tell) when i get Espirit going 42,47,53,58 i have no clue what is affecting this it baffling (more of a me ocd thing those are just awkward numbers to see)

- i feel we need an ability that guarantees a proc every 45s or so there has been times where i got 0 procs between florishes and that was so sad to see, equally you could get proc for days but i feel some sort of mitigation here would be beneficial

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

-Improvisation should give a flat number not a random number(from what i can tell) when i get Espirit going 42,47,53,58 i have no clue what is affecting this it baffling (more of a me ocd thing those are just awkward numbers to see)

- i feel we need an ability that guarantees a proc every 45s or so there has been times where i got 0 procs between florishes and that was so sad to see, equally you could get proc for days but i feel some sort of mitigation here would be beneficial

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In re: Improv
It's based on how many people are within a certain distance of you. If people run away, your next tick will be lower.

In re: Procs
That's what Flourish is, though.

They feel really weak when it comes to single target. It needs to be buffed slightly. Also, the RNG mechanic needs to be tweaked or changed... especially with Espirit. As of right now.. my single target and AoE attacks are only a 50 potency difference, which means at 2+ targets, you have to AoE or you're losing out on a lot of damage. This should be tweaked to 3+ targets... That would feel a lot better I think. I know that DNC buffs other party members, but there is such a thing as ending up doing content by yourself, which really hurts.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

Fan dance 3 should override fan dance 1 + 2 when it procs. No need to make it have its own button and it would make those burst phases feel far more smooth.

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The idea with FDIII and FDI/FDII is that you can double-weave them. So, ideally, you would hit Flourish > GCD > FDIII > FDII or FDI depending on AOE vs ST > GCD. Overwriting FDI/FDII removes the double-weaving potential, and I personally prefer being able to double-weave. Makes a job feel faster and less sluggish.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The idea with FDIII and FDI/FDII is that you can double-weave them. So, ideally, you would hit Flourish > GCD > FDIII > FDII or FDI depending on AOE vs ST > GCD. Overwriting FDI/FDII removes the double-weaving potential, and I personally prefer being able to double-weave. Makes a job feel faster and less sluggish.

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I'm not proposing the removal of double weaving, just an immediate flip flop. I would hate for there to be a delay and I love how weaving two fan dances feel but it would be nice to be able to look away from my hotbars when I hit my ogcd attacks.

After some testing it seems like lalafells grunt way more often when doing any dancer action than my au'ra. So much so that it's pretty distracting. My lala will do this 'NYEEEH' grunt every other attack or dance step, where it seems like my au'ra does it once every 4-5. Any other lala's have similar experiences?

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Originally Posted by Rongway

In re: Improv
It's based on how many people are within a certain distance of you. If people run away, your next tick will be lower.

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So hate my teammates for not being in it gotcha :P

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Originally Posted by Rongway

In re: Procs
That's what Flourish is, though.

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I know that, i feel we need an additional one but it only gives a single proc(your choice) every 45s to help mitigate really bad rng, it would also give a slight dps boost without it being too encroaching on other Dps too much.

Alright, after a bit of extensive play, some thoughts:

1) We are gated behind 2 layers of RNG to obtain our feathers. 1st layer being the combo proc, and the 2nd layer being actually obtaining a feather from those procs - this feels a bit too much. My suggestion is either a) Always generate feathers from the procs or b) Have a , but smaller, chance to generate feathers on non proc abilities. Flourish is good to generate feathers, but there's that awful chance of not getting a feather - at all - from the procs generated there and feels terrible, so suggestion c) is to have flourish always generate feathers from proc'd abilities

2) Saber Dance being on GCD feels slow for a resource spender type of ability. If nothing is done regarding the above item, then I'd suggest it being turned into a oGCD, even if it was necessary to slighty nerf the dmg or add a small recast timer to compensate.

These problem with these 2 items above is because DNC can either have a really smooth and dynamic gameplay, or a really slow and clunky gameplay, because our weaving-in oGCDs abilities are gated behind the mercy of RNG luck. So, in my opinion, would either making feather generation a bit more reliable, or making Saber Dance an oGCD.

3) Curing Waltz needs the range doubled, because the utilitiy of the spell is almost negated if you really can't catch a lot of people (sometimes including yourself) in the double heal. In my experience, the only moments you'll find the party intentionally REALLY stacked in that range, is to make sure everyone is receiving Cure 3 from WHMs... but then, in such occasion, Curing Waltz wouldn't be that useful, since Cure 3 is already very strong.

4) En avant range also feels way too tiny. I'm the only here that thinks like this?

5) It would be lovely if the developers could find a way for us to keep Closed Position with the chocobo partner. Also... No idea how to solve this, but the dps dummy trial, for dps check is useless for DNCs because we can't account for step damages.

I am loving Dancer thus far.
My only real complaint is why no lvl 64 skill?
And also Curing Waltz is extremely underwhelming and kinda sucks.

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These problem with these 2 items above is because DNC can either have a really smooth and dynamic gameplay, or a really slow and clunky gameplay, because our weaving-in oGCDs abilities are gated behind the mercy of RNG luck. So, in my opinion, would either making feather generation a bit more reliable, or making Saber Dance an oGCD.

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This ! it get to slow often.
An idea would be to get a skillspeed bonus on Fan Dance III.

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3) Curing Waltz needs the range doubled, because the utilitiy of the spell is almost negated if you really can't catch a lot of people (sometimes including yourself) in the double heal. In my experience, the only moments you'll find the party intentionally REALLY stacked in that range, is to make sure everyone is receiving Cure 3 from WHMs... but then, in such occasion, Curing Waltz wouldn't be that useful, since Cure 3 is already very strong.

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Standard and Technical Finish needs to have a longer ranged wide.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

This ! it get to slow often.
An idea would be to get a skillspeed bonus on Fan Dance III.

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I think having Saber Dance as an oGCD would help pacing a bit. It does feel sluggish when it will proc and I have to wait for my GCD to use it. Especially if I'm in a Devilment/burst window because I always want to get my Flourish procs off at that time as well. So it can make the window feel slow and clunky sometimes.

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Standard and Technical Finish needs to have a longer ranged wide.

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I personally think the range on these are fine. I'd rather our melee AOE ranges be increased a couple yalms. It's annoying in dungeons with large mobs to have the larger ones push the smaller ones out of your range to the point where you have to bury yourself in the pack to hit everything effectively.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

I'm not proposing the removal of double weaving, just an immediate flip flop. I would hate for there to be a delay and I love how weaving two fan dances feel but it would be nice to be able to look away from my hotbars when I hit my ogcd attacks.

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I don't personally see the need for them to be a single button. While I agree I'm staring at my hotbars a lot, I've mitigated it by condensing my HUD into a central location where I can see everything necessary with ease. But I also mained BRD last expansion and am used to watching my hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

And also Curing Waltz is extremely underwhelming and kinda sucks.

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Curing Waltz is actually quite strong in a group scenario, and will be really nice for statics who can coordinate better. In PUGs, it's extremely useful right after a stack mechanic. 400 potency heal to everyone, and only a minute cd.

It's kinda lackluster for solo content, but I think that's okay since we have both Curing Waltz and Second Wind.

Saber Dance really needs to be made oGCD. As it stands, it's a very underwhelming button to unlock.

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Originally Posted by VanceKenyon

Saber Dance really needs to be made oGCD. As it stands, it's a very underwhelming button to unlock.

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600 potency GCD isn't underwhelming to me and I feel like we have plenty of oGCDs with the fan dances.

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Originally Posted by VanceKenyon

Saber Dance really needs to be made oGCD. As it stands, it's a very underwhelming button to unlock.

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It’s not underwhelming—it’s actually quite strong. However, it can make it feel a little sluggish with it being on the GCD instead of an oGCD that can be weaved. Especially when you’re in a TF/Devilment window and you’re trying to squeeze in as much as possible within that time-frame.

Saber dance is also a good ranged attack if you're cut off from the enemy (thorns in Titania for example) and outside of tech step window. I am 80 dancer and enjoy it. I think the flourishes need something, it would be better to he able to weave them in between skills rather than save them all for the tech step/devilment window.

Technically only the Standard Finish that gives 1000 potency damage (for 2 steps) + 5% dmg bonus for 60s that share with other partner.

So in between mobs (depends on the distant, you don't want to cast Standard Finish too early either), you can start Standard Step, Step 1 and Step 2 - and when you reached the first mobs, cast Standard Finish immediately for the full dmg (which is also an AoE with 75% dmg to all besides your first target). Note that Standard Finish shares the same button as Standard Step.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

600 potency GCD isn't underwhelming to me and I feel like we have plenty of oGCDs with the fan dances.

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Saber Dance is quite strong, I agree... But the feathers are gated behind RNG, so you might find yourself in a situation where your rotation feels kind of dull and stiff because there's no oGCD's to weave in for a while. Saber Dance being off global cooldown would mend this, because it has a rather steady income. But of course, the damage would have to be nerfed to account for that, but speaking for myself here, I'd prefer a guaranteed smooth playstyle than seeing big numbers, if the overall dps result would remain the same. Plus I'm already quite content with SS and TS hitting like trucks, lol. :cool:

Could someone explain how DNC is supposed to work to me like I'm an infant?

In a way, I like how DNC is both a long ranged DPS (single target skills) and also a melee DPS (aoe skills, including curing waltz). When people were speculating DNC as a healer, they speculated it'd be something of a melee healer so I think fluctuation is neat.

I think I agree about Standard Step being ogcd while Technical Step being gcd, but at the same time it being gcd doesn't bother me. I think Saber is decent and don't mind it as a gcd either... When I'm in devilment (for example), I make sure to prioritise saber because it does decent damage.

I think my biggest complaints are (1) the feathers - I'm pretty sure they're melee (?) and they're not that strong, I think I'd like to see them act like one of bard's songs where more feathers = more dps potency when used, but using them as they come as opposed to accumulating them = more chances of procing fan III. (2) Curing waltz aoe is a little too small imo, but I can work with it regardless so it's not that big of a deal (3) I feel like it's lacking something but I can't pin point what. A DoT? Other support skills? Not sure, but I think I could use more skills to weave in.

At the moment, DNC is not the most boring class, but I do find it a little "boring" for level 80 in comparison to when classes were capped at 70. It just feels like there should be "more." Vague, I know. Probably a general issue among the classes, though.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Could someone explain how DNC is supposed to work to me like I'm an infant?

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The basic combo for both single target and aoe are with a 2-step combo as below

SINGLE TARGET
Cascade (*Reverse Cascade) > Fountain (*Fountainfall)
- the * are what these skills can proc (they are separate abilities though), and you should use these procs because they are stronger than the standard skills and they can award a Feather

AOE
Windmill (*Reverse Windmill) > Bladeshower (*Bloodshower)
- the * are what these skills can proc (they are separate abilities though), and you should use these procs because they are stronger than the standard skills and they can award a Feather

Feathers (can be hoarded up to 4) are used to cast these oGCD skills:
- Cast Fan Dance 1 - for single target
- Cast Fan Dance 2 - for aoe
- Both 1 and 2 can proc Fan Dance 3, which is AoE, but can be used in single target as well, and it doesn't cost a feather like the other two
* Fan dances are your ogcds to weave in your regular gcds.

Then there are the dancing part, rotationally:
- Make sure you have Closed Position cast on who you want to be your dancing partner. Your dancing partner duplicates some skills of yours, like Standard Step dmg and buff.
- Use Standard Step on cooldown - Your rotational Single Target abilities will turn into the dancing steps during this. You need to press them in the right order (changes every time). Hits quite hard.

Extra:
- Saber Dance is a ST (AOE as well) skill used to spend Esprit, you get it at later 70's - Esprit is generated mainly by you and your dancing partner. Hits hard, don't let your esprit be capped.
- Technical Step is the other dance, and should be used as your burst phase, it also buffs the whole party and hits much harder because it's longer to execute than Standard Step.
- Devilment is a big crit buff for yourself and your dancing partner
- Flourish auto-procs all of the single target and aoe combo *abilities and gives you a free Fan Dance 3. Make sure to have this ready for your burst phase. Outside of that, Flourish is best used to try and "fish" for feathers, use the AoE procs, even on single target, if you desperately need feathers during this.
- Shield Samba is a defensive. Use it when you foresee heavy AoE
- Curing waltz is a mild aoe heal (with very short range) that irradiates from both you and a second one from your dance partner. Best uses is when the whole party is stacked


I guess that sums the basics. Once you get the hang of it, then is time to perfect your burst phase: in theory, shoving as many damage as possible during Technical Step buff - I think reddit people made a infographic for this, if I manage to fetch it, I'll post here, but rule of thumb, is to make sure you have at least 3 (ideally 4) feathers saved for the burst phase, for extra extra dmg.

I like that basic step is on the cooldown. It justifies the massive DPS of finishing steps. If basic step was ocd finishing steps would need a much lower dps, and the window for using basic steps would be much tighter - more issues weaving into mobility.

I also like that all if our standard AoE is only 5 range. This is a hybrid melee job. Get used to being in melee with a ranged retreat option. I love that. It’s why I mained Survival Hunter before leaving WoW, why I used to be a fist weaving monk healer in WoW before that got deleted.

Let this job stay unique. If you want a pure ranged you have BRD, MCH, BLM, and 3 healers... and almost RDM.

This is the inverse of RDM. RDM has a short melee window, DNC has a short ranged window except it’s optional.

Kep it unique, no more homogenization please.