Reasoning for removal of TP, but not MP?

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

The same could be said previously for TP in weighting TP for AoE vs. single-target, but albeit at a lower impact/difficulty compared to the normal healer/dps hybrid.

How about this: MP classes with only CDs like TP classes, and only raises + heals costing a hefty amount of MP?
You'd combat the obvious raise/constant spam healing issues while still providing MP classes the same benefit TP classes now got.

Indeed, MP costs of AoE spells do add a tiny difficulty, but look at it like this: TP classes are now allowed to "Brain off, AoE all you want" whereas MP classes still have to think a little about their resources.
Why can't my WHM get the same "Brain off, AoE all you want" benefit?

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Some jobs can do things other jobs can't. That's normal and expected. That's why we have 17(?) jobs and 4 roles to choose from. We don't need to make every job feel the same in AOE pulls.

As for why we don't remove MP, probably because it's convenient to keep it. It's mostly a resource for healers and BLMs to manage, but other jobs dip into the MP pool as well because, why not? It's there and it makes sense in terms of lore and job flavor. It's not like they are going to remove the MP bar when you switch jobs. It wouldn't make sense to remove it since all current and future healers are going to use the bar and it can be used as a restriction on any number of things in the future (like BLM spells and raises).

TP was a resource that was unnecessary. I spam the mess out of weapon skills and my TP always stayed high. You would NEVER run out of it, essentially making it useless.

MP, though, is a whole different story. The whole point of being able to use magic in this game or any other game, is that you have to have mana to do so. If you don't have the mana, you don't get to cast your magic.

Think of it like Magic: the Gathering. Does it cost mana to attack? No, unless the defending player has a buff up that forces you to (similar to attacking into something in this game that drains your health). Now, if you cast a spell, can you do it for free? Not usually unless you have a combo out. You always have to use mana or some other resource to cast spells. Using resource to just swing your sword and go pewpew has never been a successful thing.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

Just from browsing through the classes: every class which relied on TP as their main resource is now your standard "Press the button when off CD without having to think further" whereas MP classes still need to calculate their resources.

Why the glaring difference?

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Because they could save time that way but apparently didn't think they could get away with then removing MP in the same sweep, especially since it is still at least a tiny bit relevant to healers.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Basically, unless you spammed your AOE skills there were never any risk of running out of TP, so it was in essence a pointless resource.

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It'd eventually run out without Invigorate. Like a caster DPS runs out without Lucid Dreaming, but without the stat that increases the need for either CD (SpS/SkS) being quite so hated as among non-BLM casters. They were effectively identical. Both could essentially strap their CDs to auto-clickers and forget resources exist.

All TP did was force a commitment in dungeon runs with full pulls. If not everyone AoEed or otherwise performed at least kind of competently, those who were AoEing would run out of TP before everything's dead, and then you'd probably wipe. Of course, the same can still be said about the interactions of competent DPS and tank CDs so it's not like that's been outright removed. It's just a bit less glaringly obvious.

I don't think people are even reading before commenting.

The post wasn't about removing mp.... it's about taking caster AOEs off mp, like the melee ones are resource free...at least that's what I read. It is asking for AoE parity, not removal of mp altogether.

Really, if tanks can spam AoEs now without resource management... why can't healers?

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I do hope you got what you wrote there: now every TP class can spam AoE like there's no tomorrow, while MP classes can only to a certain threshold.

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MP classes are powerful enough to let them have it.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I don't think people are even reading before commenting.

The post wasn't about removing mp.... it's about taking caster AOEs off mp, like the melee ones are resource free...at least that's what I read. It is asking for AoE parity, not removal of mp altogether.

Really, if tanks can spam AoEs now without resource management... why can't healers?

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because some classes have to be "harder" than others. Why do DPS not really have to worry about enmity generation anymore? Why does it only have to be tanks? Why don't healers get DMG buff traits but BLM does? IT'S NOT FAIR AND I DEMAND EQUALITY!!!!!

So just make 1 class that can wear any armor and use all skills so everyone will be happy. Oh yeah, they did that in FF12 and the majority hated it.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

because some classes have to be "harder" than others. Why do DPS not really have to worry about enmity generation anymore? Why does it only have to be tanks? Why don't healers get DMG buff traits but BLM does? IT'S NOT FAIR AND I DEMAND EQUALITY!!!!!

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I Lol'ed so hard at your first point. Tanks don't even worry about aggro anymore.
Their tank stance is idiot proof.

Secondly, all healers and casters do get damage up traits they all share called Magick and Mend, Formally known as Maim&Mend I think.

Im not asking for infinite MP on healers/casters either, I'm just pointing out that your examples are bad choices.

part of the reason for removing it was likely to reduce dev complexity, which is also probably one of the driving factors for the simplification of tank stances. every time they add a new job/race it multiplicatively increases the maintenance requirements, and they are quite likely realizing that they have to do this to have expansions in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I Lol'ed so hard at your first point. Tanks don't even worry about aggro anymore.
Their tank stance is idiot proof.

Secondly, all healers and casters do get damage up traits they all share called Magick and Mend, Formally known as Maim&Mend I think.

Im not asking for infinite MP on healers/casters either, I'm just pointing out that your examples are bad choices.

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WHERE IS MY TANK STANCE FOR WHM!? I DEMAND EQUALITY, BURN YOU!

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Originally Posted by artlessknave

part of the reason for removing it was likely to reduce dev complexity, which is also probably one of the driving factors for the simplification of tank stances. every time they add a new job/race it multiplicatively increases the maintenance requirements, and they are quite likely realizing that they have to do this to have expansions in the future.

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Then, honestly... they should stop adding races and jobs if they can't even maintain a standard equitable to their first expansion.

Of course, games made in the early 2000's had no such issue, but /shrug.

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Originally Posted by Dubont

because some classes have to be "harder" than others. Why do DPS not really have to worry about enmity generation anymore? [1]Why does it only have to be tanks? [2] Why don't healers get DMG buff traits but BLM does? IT'S NOT FAIR AND I DEMAND EQUALITY!!!!!

[3] So just make 1 class that can wear any armor and use all skills so everyone will be happy. Oh yeah, they did that in FF12 and the majority hated it.

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1. You can now hold aggro with auto-attack. This is not hyperbole.

2. They both do. All casters and healers get damage-increasing traits. All physical-based jobs see the buffs only in their raw potency values.

3. This has nothing to do with the changes at play, nor do those changes have anything to do with intentional asymmetry ("some classes" being intentionally "harder than others").

It's a trend that I've seen in RPGs over the years, and with my clear magic-user bias, it's not one I'm usually fond of.

Short version is, once upon a time there were spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Spellcasters were largely understood to be more powerful, but harder to play or control. They had very intentional weaknesses that supported this dichotomy: crap armor. Low health. Resource limitations. Difficulty in locating new spells. Weird material components. Feeling useless at low levels. Concentration mechanics. The list goes on.

Things have shifted over time, and now the trend seems to be "make non casters just as powerful and versatile as casters but also don't give them any of those pesky limitations, but casters still keep a bunch of their limitations like mana and mobility issues and interruptible spells". This doesn't necessarily have to be done in a bad way, but again, I'm caster biased. I dislike the idea that I could spend my life in a tower learning to make fire with my hands only to find out I could have just picked up a sword and accomplish basically the same thing, but also have basically none of the drawbacks.

So the end result is, non-casters can just do the same thing as casters except they don't have resource limitations. Because casters being stronger is unfair. So now they're not stronger, they just have these arbitrary limitations that aren't making up for a power difference anymore.

Where it goes from here is up to the game designers. I'm not some ancient grognard waving my fist and saying "mages should be better". What I'm saying is, mages and fighters shouldn't have basically equal output if they're going to have the old restrictions on mages and not add any to fighters.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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Head-canon class fantasy vs game mechanics. MP for caster dps exists as a mechanic (blm) or res limit. They have effectively infinite MP already. For healers, it exists as a mechanic to balance around free healing abilities, high/low spells, and typically high cost dps spells. TP hasn't had a purpose since HW. Melee dps face different limitations and mechanics during fights as is.

As far as fantasy goes, you may spend ages learning spells, but so do other classes. I'm sure it takes plenty of time to learn to channel chakra through your body properly and thus monks deserve to be able to obliterate Merlins with their bare hands in the same way that you create fire with yours.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

You are correct of course, but why should a MP class in WHM be forced to use several CDs just to keep his AoE-spamming up, when a TP class can do the same now for free without having to do anything else?

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Because not everything needs to be the same.
Please, let's not ruin this game like blizzard did with wow

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Because not everything needs to be the same.
Please, let's not ruin this game like blizzard did with wow

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That's not even an argument you presented which would falsify my point about TP classes now being able to AoE spam, while MP classes still have to manage their resouces.

With Shadowbringers SQ already did large parts to copy WoW: simplifications, removal of choice(SCH losing Selene as a buff pet, now she's just there as a cosmetic), loss of abilities etc.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Things have shifted over time, and now the trend seems to be "make non casters just as powerful and versatile as casters but also don't give them any of those pesky limitations, but casters still keep a bunch of their limitations like mana and mobility issues and interruptible spells". This doesn't necessarily have to be done in a bad way, but again, I'm caster biased. I dislike the idea that I could spend my life in a tower learning to make fire with my hands only to find out I could have just picked up a sword and accomplish basically the same thing, but also have basically none of the drawbacks.

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I... *squints eyes* what?
I hope you're comparing magic ranged dps to physical ranged dps because all of that is factually wrong when applied to melees (usually known as the fighters term you used). I understand you're biased but that does not excuse spreading false information.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

That's not even an argument you presented which would falsify my point about TP classes now being able to AoE spam, while MP classes still have to manage their resouces.

With Shadowbringers SQ already did large parts to copy WoW: simplifications, removal of choice(SCH losing Selene as a buff pet, now she's just there as a cosmetic), loss of abilities etc.

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Yes, they have simplified and homogenized quite a bit- I wonder why this glaring exception?

Because TP wasn't attached to any sort of defensive abilities or healing/sustaining abilities (except for abilities which actually replenished TP itself, go figure).

MP has its limit purely due to healing/raising/sustaining players. Without such a limit (and enrage timers), it becomes purely a war of attrition. When it comes to the DPS side of MP users, you'll notice that unless you stack spell speed or do abilities outside of damage (Raising with RDM/SMN, VerCure, etc) they do not ever run out. BLM is a fine example of this. Healers get double tapped for this due to A. Having to limit how much they can heal/raise/sustain at any one time to prevent a war of attrition and B. DPSing is stepping out of their main role. Sure, they can DPS but it isn't their main focus.

That's why, in a nutshell, TP was removed and MP was not, why MP has the limiters it has today and TP never really did aside from old school sprint.

In all fairness, you could run out of TP back in the 2.0 days but once they change the TP cost somewhere near the end of ARR Patch Cycle, TP pretty much became a UI fluff for Sprint til they removed that.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I still don't see any reasoning why healer AOEs are still on mp. I suppose it would make sense if they came out and said they don't want healers dpsing.

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Would you rather have long cooldowns/potencies cut than just simple MP Cost?

I still don't see any reasoning why healer AOEs are still on mp. I suppose it would make sense if they came out and said they don't want healers dpsing.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

In all fairness, you could run out of TP back in the 2.0 days but once they change the TP cost somewhere near the end of ARR Patch Cycle, TP pretty much became a UI fluff for Sprint til they removed that.



Would you rather have long cooldowns/potencies cut than just simple MP Cost?

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I already proposed the fix: AoE spells of MP classes costing no resources just like for TP classes now, but all your heals/other spells are proportionally more costly.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

No, MP management has far more use beyond "stop spamming AoE"
In fact most mages have their own, sustainable AoE rotations anyway. That arbitrary barrier just doesn't exist for mages like it did for physical.

A RDM will never run out of MP unless they cast Verraise.
A BLM will never run out of MP, period, but it dictates their Ice/Fire rotation.

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You keep comparing single target TP with AOE MP.

But even more to the point, you point out the two mage classes that rely on MP the most and prove why MP is pointless because they can't run out of MP unless they're spamming AOE.

Removing TP because "TP don't have to manage their TP 90% of the time" while leaving MP in because "MP have to manage their MP 10% of the time" just doesn't make sense.

I would rather they not have removed TP. But either remove both or leave both in.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I already proposed the fix: AoE spells of MP classes costing no resources just like for TP classes now, but all your heals/other spells are proportionally more costly.

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I don't agree with a fix like that. That is completely unbalance. As it is, I don't agree with the removal of TP because certain players don't know how to manage their TP. Why would a Healer need to spam AoE Heals? Well timed Heals is all you need.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I don't agree with a fix like that. That is completely unbalance. As it is, I don't agree with the removal of TP because certain players don't know how to manage their TP. Why would a Healer need to spam AoE Heals? Well timed Heals is all you need.

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I wasn't precise enough in that post: I was talking about MP AoE damage spells.

Every TP class can now chain-pull dungeons and nuke everything down, as their TP costs have been removed.
MP classes, especially healers, can't do that, as if you try you'd be out of MP when you have to heal.

Which begs the obvious question: why doesn't my WHM get the same benefit of being able to spam Holy without any cost?

As i like to say, the only reason TP existed in the first place was because it was in 1.0. It was one of the staples of 1.0 so they kept it, but they never really realised WHY it was a staple- the reason it was such a big part of 1.0 was because it needed to be BUILT UP to use more powerful weaponskills. Having it maxed out completely contradicted the reason for its existence.
However, they soon realised how unnecessary it is, and especially thanks to the job gauges giving most classes something else to have to manage. The job gauges took the place that TP was meant to have, and slightly more along the lines of 1.0's style of resource management, especially looking towards certain classes. Like White Mage. Its bar builds up and that's the only way you can use certain skills. Not many are locked behind it, but... still.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I wasn't precise enough in that post: I was talking about MP AoE damage spells.

Every TP class can now chain-pull dungeons and nuke everything down, as their TP costs have been removed.
MP classes, especially healers, can't do that, as if you try you'd be out of MP when you have to heal.

Which begs the obvious question: why doesn't my WHM get the same benefit of being able to spam Holy without any cost?

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Because DPSing is not a healer's main concern. It is part of their kit but they aren't meant to be able to spam DPSing abilities compared to DPS or even Tanks in the current balance.

https://i.imgur.com/4kHiCqH.gif
Did someone say TP? For my bunghole?