The Warrior of Light is not tempered by Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

It is a common trope but I would like to think better of XIV's writers than to throw it out there completely out of nowhere, considering we have seen nothing indicating Hydaelyn is anything less than good.

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I am not so inclined to agree. I am not saying she is a mustache twirler, but expelling a part of an existence off the notion of the opposition desired "more power"? That is jumping the gun and ended up breaking the world, leaving us in the state we are now. Fragmented.

What exactly did that entail? Shouldn't we ask the specifics?

Well meaning? Sure. But the road to hell is always paved...

Let's think on this of I get what is laying down the Primal Hydaelyn is our concept of how a god should be, letting us have free will and giving us a blessing to banish the wrongs or darkness. It allows us to believe we are in the right and the absolute. I mean you got God or the Will of the Planet behind you and it has done acts that have helped you and you believe you are doing right to the Will.

You believe that Jesus is our savior, you aren't that militia destroying those that don't believe in Christ but you still believe that your cause and faith in Jesus is correct. You are going to heaven, the rest who don't are going to hell.

Your faith allows you to sin and atone, because you have free will. You might reject Christ and maybe find HIM later...

The Christ you workship is your ideal of Christ, there may or may not be a different being of an Actual Christ.

That's my theory anyways, it could be something else but I think that's what makes her as the Will so interesting and multifaceted. She isn't intended to be bad... and that's why we believe in her so much.

If Hydaelyn was truly "evil" or doing something wrong, or if she wasn't necessary for the world, one would think that a being like Midgardsormr wouldn't have sworn to serve her. Unless he's actually tempered or has some ulterior motives, which he has never shown us so far.

I think that neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark themselves can be adhered to being good or evil, nor I think that they have bad motives for what they do themselves. They simply do what they believe is the best to protect their children, and we've seen that they might be able to make mistakes. Like the current situation in the First, as I highly doubt that Hydaelyn wasn't aware of what was happening there. It's just that she wasn't aware that it was a bad thing until she saw what the WoDs had done to stop it, until she understood their pain through them, us, and Minfilia. I think that that made her understand that it, a flood of light, wasn't truly right. Similarly, I believe that perhaps Zodiark made similar mistakes in the past, without noticing the damage that he was doing, and that was was made Hydaelyn banish him.

My guess is that eventually we'll make both "gods" to see that they need each other -to listen to and understand their different thoughts in order to find balance- to prevent hurting their children. Perhaps that will make them become a single being once again, if that ever existed for real.

To elaborate a bit more on what I said, I think that by default Hydaelyn sees light as benign and darkness as malign, and Zodiark sees it the other way around. But due to their own nature and affinities neither of them realize that having one without the other, or too much of one of them, is what causes issues. That's why I think that they need an outside source to understand that fact, like it happened with the situation on the First, and why they'll need to come to terms with each other if we want to sort this out on the long term. Because I think that, primals or not, they're a natural part of the world and we need them to exist.

To be fair, Midgardsormr isn't native to Hydaelyn and was ultimately concerned with finding a place where he could allow his brood to exist in relative peace. In large part due to Omega pursuing him across the universe.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

To elaborate a bit more on what I said, I think that by default Hydaelyn sees light as benign and darkness as malign, and Zodiark sees it the other way around. But due to their own nature and affinities neither of them realize that having one without the other, or too much of one of them, is what causes issues. That's why I think that they need an outside source to understand that fact, like it happened with the situation on the First, and why they'll need to come to terms with each other if we want to sort this out on the long term.

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They've had an outside source, that being mankind. I know we're supposed to be the champions ...but that's exactly what the First were too.

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Because I think that, primals or not, they're a natural part of the world and we need them to exist.

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Being primals actually kind of questions the necessity. Depending on how this plays out. Were they a necessity to a much younger world? If the theory is that they are the oldest primals from the thoughts of mankind trying to explain the origin. They aren't necessary. That is IF that's where they originated from. They aren't natural either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, Midgardsormr isn't native to Hydaelyn and was ultimately concerned with finding a place where he could allow his brood to exist in relative peace. In large part due to Omega pursuing him across the universe.

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I know. But Hydaelyn did nothing to stop Omega. It was us the ones that ultimately confronted and defeated it, and knowing uncle Middy he would have told us if there was something wrong with the mothercrystal herself. Yet what he shown us that worried him was us when we met. Why would he care so much if Hydaelyn wasn't necessary for the planet?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

They've had an outside source, that being mankind. I know we're supposed to be the champions ...but that's exactly what the First were too.

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Yes, but both us and the WoDs did what we thought was right by pushing the light and defeating darkness on our worlds. But in the end we've seen that it can cause as much damage as having too much darkness would. Once we realized it, due to our connection with Hydaelyn, or perhaps Minfilia's, she finally is able to see and understand that too much light is bad, that it's causing pain and suffering to her children, and that's when she decided to try to help.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Being primals actually kind of questions the necessity. Depending on how this plays out. Were they a necessity to a much younger world? If the theory is that they are the oldest primals from the thoughts of mankind trying to explain the origin. They aren't necessary. That is IF that's where they originated from. They aren't natural either.

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I see primals similar to natural elements like rains, fires, tornadoes, etc. They're a natural part of the world and serve a purpose, yet too much of any can be terrible. For example, natural caused fires are alright and have existed since the beginning of the world, yet it's when man causes more of them that they do serious damage to nature's balance.

In the same way we've seen that primals can be summoned with not actual ritual in place, just by sheer faith and necessity from people or creatures, so it's safe to assume that that's something natural that has happened since forever (with Hydaelyn and Zodiark being actually the will of the planet itself). The problem is when someone (ascians) comes in and starts influencing that cycle, causing primals to be summoned "artificially".

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"If you'd know the truth we would be on the same side."

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I took this as more of a reference to the balance itself. For our world to remain as it is, a balance of some description is needed. Being an Ascian, he may very well have a slight bias towards Zodiark, much like the WotMother would no doubt favour Hyde, yet both seem to operate in terms of the balance rather than Hyde or Zodi primarily. As such, we (up until then) haven't really had reason to regard the balance, at least not up until the WoD quest-line where we got living, breathing examples of why one side winning outright is bad-news-bears. After that, yes, we would have been at least slightly more receptive to treating with someone like Elidibus, but by then we had done so much goody-goody that his next step to readdress the problem is killing us outright (but the above comment came way before these events last I remember).

I wager it'll be different once ShB starts now that he can see us becoming WoD's to help with the balance problem. The issue is whether Solus or Elidibus serve as the agent (and we can guess who based on the trailer). I fear Elidibus will likely meet a rather nasty end at the hands of a certain not-really-an-elezan with the Resonant.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

They're a natural part of the world and serve a purpose, yet too much of any can be terrible. For example, natural caused fires are alright and have existed since the beginning of the world, yet it's when man causes more of them that they do serious damage to nature's balance.

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You seem to be missing the major iisues why a primal is a problem.

Primals need to exist by using up Aether which in turn destroys the planet.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6efc220bdd.jpg

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ure-of-Ascians

Being a likeable Primal doesn't negate the problem. This has nothing to do with rituals, this has to do with basically "climate change" you can ignore it and just assume a future generation is going to deal with it or actually work on the problem. Similar concept of saving the planet in many FFs before this one. Questioning faith, another similar theme in prior FFs.



This is my theory or at least connecting the dots on what's going on so far.

Hydaelyn (the will) who speaks with us is a Primal
Hydaelyn Primal IS NOT Hydaelyn the planet

Elidibus in the trailer mentions BOTH Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals

Elidibus also mentions One True God (and says that's Zodiark).

Elidibus also appears to have a different endgame that isn't the same as the other Ascians.

So it's possible that he sees Zodiark differently than the Ascians ie the ones the Ascians follow are a primal but the one Elidibus thinks of is not the same...(which may be a different primal vision of Zodiark) much like how there were different incarnations of Titan and maybe why that scene was important to note with Ga Bu's summoning of Titan (it reiterates how primals work and depending on the summon, it's not the same one).

Of course Hydaelyn and Zodiark being the oldest of them (if we are to believe Elidibus) does bring into question why it was seemingly forgotten long ago, and why the 12 became a more ...popular mode of worship? It may have something to do with the split or that Hydaelyn as the Will is more benign and people wanted to worship something that ...may have more impact on their fates? (At least what the people believed to have more impact)

As far as the Elidibus reference goes, his exact words:

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Elidibus
Lahabrea is wrong about a great many things. The Echo is indeed a gift─albeit one you have yet to master.

Minfilia
And if we did?

Elidibus
There would be no strife between our peoples─for we would be of one mind.

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Igeyorhm
Lahabrea! It is time!

Lahabrea
Very well. Let us show these mortals the true power of the Echo...
The power to break down the barriers of existence!

Igeyorhm
I am become you...

Lahabrea
...And we are become one.

Ascian Prime
Come, mortals! Render up your souls, that Lord Zodiark might be reborn!

<...>

Lahabrea
Aaargh!!!
What walls are these? Arrrgh! Damn you, Hydaelyn!

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The Lahabrea Praetorium rant has always been an interesting anomaly, but if Solus is right about Hydaelyn then he is also right about Zodiark, yes? Then is it not strange that Lahabrea's rant is about how the way to cure the planet from being destroyed by Hydaelyn (a primal) is the return of Zodiark, the one true god (also a primal)?

Though the cave art mural has the idea that Zodiark was born first and Hydaelyn came into being and they shared the sea for a time gnawing away at me.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Though the cave art mural has the idea that Zodiark was born first and Hydaelyn came into being and they shared the sea for a time gnawing away at me.

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I question what the correct "order" to read the paintings in is. Or if it's even "history" to begin with and is more a diagram of how Hydaelyn and Zodiark were formed.

When I saw that the order was "Zodiark---Zodiark/Hydaleyn---Hydaelyn" I thought it was symmetrical and looked an a lot like the way someone would draw a diagram of the Sundering. Not a history of the Sundering mind you, but a diagram of the Sundering. So the order of how events occurred wouldn't be accurate, but the overall effect of how the situation ended up would be. Think a flow-chart shaped like a "V" that has one idea in the center of it and then the ideas that come from that idea split off to the sides.

It's tricky because we see it as the camera pans left-to-right, so I think that is probably influencing the order people are reading it in. It's also very likely we haven't seen the entire mural either. Like... Hydaelyn knows Zodiark hates her children so how does she know that? We see the Zodiark figure in the dungeon trailer burning people and I am very curious to see if Hydaelyn has a corresponding mural that depicts her doing something else...

The thing i like to know most about the mural is how is it meant to be read to the audience, is it tailored more to western audiences where we read left to right or more tailored to eastern audiences where (to my understanding) they read right to left.

edited twice brain isn't working >_>

I started wondering where we got the account about Zodiark, since it was said he was getting stronger which is why Hydaelyn expelled him. Yet not sure if it's due to our connection to Hydaelyn that we never get his account of history. Unless it's something weird, like Elidibus IS Zodiark :P

This of course can be a storytelling issue (don't reveal the plot) but we only have the account that the darkness was growing and had to be expelled. Doing so also broke the world into different dimensions. Who gave that account...to the winners go the spoils?

Then of course my mind is nagging me about another story by SE where we were ushered to do things to save the world.

Bravely Default: Where the Fairy Flies

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Bravely Default: Where the Fairy Flies

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Despite its flaws i love that game :P i wonder if a pixie might be called Airy or Anne as well, if there is the moment i see it be taking my boot off to squish

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Despite its flaws i love that game :P i wonder if a pixie might be called Airy or Anne as well, if there is the moment i see it be taking my boot off to squish

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I am not gonna lie, during the Heavenward relic quests I got weary

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

You seem to be missing the major iisues why a primal is a problem.

Primals need to exist by using up Aether which in turn destroys the planet.

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6efc220bdd.jpg

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ure-of-Ascians

Being a likeable Primal doesn't negate the problem. This has nothing to do with rituals, this has to do with basically "climate change" you can ignore it and just assume a future generation is going to deal with it or actually work on the problem. Similar concept of saving the planet in many FFs before this one. Questioning faith, another similar theme in prior FFs.



This is my theory or at least connecting the dots on what's going on so far.

Hydaelyn (the will) who speaks with us is a Primal
Hydaelyn Primal IS NOT Hydaelyn the planet

Elidibus in the trailer mentions BOTH Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals

Elidibus also mentions One True God (and says that's Zodiark).

Elidibus also appears to have a different endgame that isn't the same as the other Ascians.

So it's possible that he sees Zodiark differently than the Ascians ie the ones the Ascians follow are a primal but the one Elidibus thinks of is not the same...(which may be a different primal vision of Zodiark) much like how there were different incarnations of Titan and maybe why that scene was important to note with Ga Bu's summoning of Titan (it reiterates how primals work and depending on the summon, it's not the same one).

Of course Hydaelyn and Zodiark being the oldest of them (if we are to believe Elidibus) does bring into question why it was seemingly forgotten long ago, and why the 12 became a more ...popular mode of worship? It may have something to do with the split or that Hydaelyn as the Will is more benign and people wanted to worship something that ...may have more impact on their fates? (At least what the people believed to have more impact)

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No, no. I seem to not have explained it well, as I'm not talking about likeable primals like Ramuh, for example. I agree that the majority of primals that we know (summoned by the ascians' meddling) are not "good" in the long run, as they consume way too much aether, which is dangerous. That's also partially why the ascians help them to get summoned, to weaken the mothercrystal. But what I was talking about is about primals like the kami, or Hydaelyn and Zodiark. These are primals that are linked to their own source of aether (see the kojin tribe quests [no spoilers in case someone hasn't completed them yet], which can be extrapolated to the gigantic crystals that we know that hold Hydaelyn and her counterpart) and don't go beyond that. Once their own source is depleted they are gone, which fits perfectly with the ascians' plan. That's why I think that it's important to differentiate between each one of them and not put them in the same category, similarly to how we can differentiate between natural and man made things (like the fire example).

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

No, no. I seem to not have explained it well, as I'm not talking about likeable primals like Ramuh, for example. I agree that the majority of primals that we know (summoned by the ascians' meddling) are not "good" in the long run, as they consume way too much aether, which is dangerous. That's also partially why the ascians help them to get summoned, to weaken the mothercrystal. But what I was talking about is about primals like the kami, or Hydaelyn and Zodiark. These are primals that are linked to their own source of aether (see the kojin tribe quests [no spoilers in case someone hasn't completed them yet], which can be extrapolated to the gigantic crystals that we know that hold Hydaelyn and her counterpart) and don't go beyond that. Once their own source is depleted they are gone, which fits perfectly with the ascians' plan. That's why I think that it's important to differentiate between each one of them and not put them in the same category, similarly to how we can differentiate between natural and man made things (like the fire example).

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That's not what has been said. She has been likened to a parasite. I think this xpac is testing our Kool Aid drinking abilities. Basically do we do what's right when our greatest challenge also comes from being an ally?

Also keep in mind that the revelation that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals was considered minor per Yoshi P

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

That's not what has been said. She has been likened to a parasite. I think this xpac is testing our Kool Aid drinking abilities. Basically do we do what's right when our greatest challenge also comes from being an ally?

Also keep in mind that the revelation that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals was considered minor per Yoshi P

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A parasite in the ascians' view, as they see Hydaelyn as a being imprisoning and taking the spot of the one that they consider the "rightful ruler", or "True God" as they call him. Note that they make this differentiation themselves based on their interests (they don't say that Zodiark is a parasite, for instance), so neither "parasite" or "true god" hold any water in this context.

And you're right, we still don't know literally anything about the truth, haha. But it's fun to speculate :)

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I am not gonna lie, during the Heavenward relic quests I got weary

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XD so was i thankfully nothing came about apart from grinding

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

it tailored more to western audiences where we read left to right or more tailored to eastern audiences where (to my understanding) they read right to left.

edited twice brain isn't working >_>

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Modern Chinese, Korean and Japanese is written left to right when horizontal, just like the Western system.
When the characters are in columns or pages, it's right to left.

If it's a horizontal mural, I'm guess they'd read it left to right unless it was covered in word columns.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

A parasite in the ascians' view, as they see Hydaelyn as a being imprisoning and taking the spot of the one that they consider the "rightful ruler", or "True God" as they call him. Note that they make this differentiation themselves based on their interests (they don't say that Zodiark is a parasite, for instance), so neither "parasite" or "true god" hold any water in this context.

And you're right, we still don't know literally anything about the truth, haha. But it's fun to speculate :)

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I think the fact that we really haven't had Zodiark say something is interesting. But keep in mind Zodiark was banned and can't be a parasite if was expelled already. So yeah while the Ascians may want him restored, it is to what degree?

Are they (rightfully) miffed that not only did Hydaelyn expell him, she shattered the source into different dimensions "for the good of the people"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...41554_Joey.jpg

Keep in mind my viewpoint isn't that Hydaelyn is BAD like some cartoon villain. I think tho in the name of "good" our Primal caused some endgame stuff to start rolling.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Modern Chinese, Korean and Japanese is written left to right when horizontal, just like the Western system.
When the characters are in columns or pages, it's right to left.

If it's a horizontal mural, I'm guess they'd read it left to right unless it was covered in word columns.

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ah ty that clears that up for me

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Though the cave art mural has the idea that Zodiark was born first and Hydaelyn came into being and they shared the sea for a time gnawing away at me.

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But is that really Zodiark? It could be the first one that went under a complete other name and then split into Zodiark and Hydaelyn and because Zodiark was black too like the first one, the Ascians believe that he is the one true god. Or its just all Ascian talk because they want to be in the right. For me at least it looks more like the god or primal was split into two different aspects of him/her.

Frankly, my trust in Solus is so low that I'd want to check if the paint is still wet on that mural. (Not to mention my trust in video game trailer revelations.)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But is that really Zodiark? It could be the first one that went under a complete other name and then split into Zodiark and Hydaelyn and because Zodiark was black too like the first one, the Ascians believe that he is the one true god. Or its just all Ascian talk because they want to be in the right. For me at least it looks more like the god or primal was split into two different aspects of him/her.

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That's another thing I considered, but it felt like the second-most-likely interpretation because the white one-halo and white two-halo entities look as similar as the black one-halo and black two-halo entities, and only Hydaelyn is ascendant now. It's slightly awkward to say this equally-dark-to-the-dark-one-halo-one entity is the combination one. I'd expect the union entity to be some kind of, pardon the pun, gray area between them.

So as odd as this may sound, and I’ll admit I was one of the people that jumped on the idea that the WoL being tempered from the get go. Honestly I still stand on that, but this thread has given me plenty to think about on the subject.

However, as for why I still think that we’re tempered: there is no steadfast rule when it comes to tempering, period. As many have said there’s varying degrees with Ifrit alone. Ysale is never tempered, nor are the heretics that we’re told. Sure they’re zealous, and follow her, but they’re also independent and capable of thought. They’re heretics because they dare to believe there is anything other than what the church claims and drink of dragons blood. The Sylphs themselves are shown to have, honestly, fairly clever disguises while in the Sylphlands when tempered and are capable of clearly higher, and honestly, independent thinking. They want to protect their forest, but there’s more to them than just that. The Sylphs of the Sylphlands allow us the communion with Ramuh, and don’t try to force us to be tempered afterwards or even try kill us after we slay their protector.

That being said, what if Hydaelyns method of tempering also has varying levels. The first being the Echo, which is more widespread. As was mentioned previously, most inhabitants of Eorzea know nothing of the mothercrystal. However one trait we see commonly with those that have the Echo and their compatriots is a blind faith in her, and I do mean blind. We don’t question her, as is brought up numerous times. We listen to what she requests of us, and then we do it. The Crystals of Light could very likely be another degree of it. The Warriors of Darkness and our own WoL/D did their best to collect the Six Elemental Crystals of Light, and the WoDs used them to grant Hydaelyn power, essentially returning aether to her that she used to manifest the crystals in the first place. We only really deal with them when we’re in the state that has to do in some way with the Echo/Hydaelyn. The final, most severe, degree of tempering would be Minfillia’s case. Becoming the “voice” of the Crystal herself. Minfillia loses her free will, becoming fully bound to the crystal, her visions and her will. Just because she is able to speak as Minfillia does not mean she IS Minfillia, which she does point out when we meet her as the Voice of the Mother. We also know when she was fleeing Ul’dah that she heard Hydaelyn calling to her and, instead of continuing to flee, she was pulled back into the collapsing tunnel, and the next time we meet she is utterly changed.

While we may “betray” Hydaelyn and become the Warrior of Darkness in Shadowbringers, this could be an effect of Midgardsormr’s severing of our blessing of light. While we do “get it back” there is nothing that says it’s the same as it once was. One thing to note is, while it has the whole silent protagonist thing going in early ARR, our dialogue, our choices, our characters personality becomes more moldable after we are severed from that connection and we have a new voice talking to us in the form of little Middy. While that can easily be explained as “oh they didn’t have the systems in place back then” it can also be interpreted as “we were more strongly under her control back then and he helped us slow our overall tempering”

That being said, I am open to either outcome. I won’t lie and say I am hoping we’re not on the tempered route, because I honestly am hoping we are since it would cast an interesting light on our fights up until now.

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Originally Posted by Cerat

The final, most severe, degree of tempering would be Minfillia’s case. Becoming the “voice” of the Crystal herself. Minfillia loses her free will, becoming fully bound to the crystal, her visions and her will. Just because she is able to speak as Minfillia does not mean she IS Minfillia, which she does point out when we meet her as the Voice of the Mother. We also know when she was fleeing Ul’dah that she heard Hydaelyn calling to her and, instead of continuing to flee, she was pulled back into the collapsing tunnel, and the next time we meet she is utterly changed.

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It's important to note that her situation changes. When we first see her as the Voice of the Mother, she is completely bound to Hydaelyn - explained as a necessity because Hydaelyn has been so severely weakened.

But the second time, with the Warriors of Darkness, Minfilia specifically says that the additional power given by the combined crystals has strengthened Hydaelyn enough that she can set Minfilia free again to act as Her emissary on the First.

She's still bound to Hydaelyn's power, but no longer fully absorbed by it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's important to note that her situation changes. When we first see her as the Voice of the Mother, she is completely bound to Hydaelyn - explained as a necessity because Hydaelyn has been so severely weakened.

But the second time, with the Warriors of Darkness, Minfilia specifically says that the additional power given by the combined crystals has strengthened Hydaelyn enough that she can set Minfilia free again to act as Her emissary on the First.

She's still bound to Hydaelyn's power, but no longer fully absorbed by it.

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While this is true, she is still very much changed by Hydaelyn. She not only is physically changed, she is also changed when it comes to how she acts. While we do not specifically know if it was her willingly accepting the role as emissary or if she is so enthralled by Hydaelyn’s power, we do know that now she is set to go about the role without her own will completely intact, much like those tempered souls bound to gather more innocents to temper and worship their Primals. At the end of the day she is no longer the Minfillia that would pray us return to the Waking Sands.

Edit:: also, in regards to the necessity of it, we only get that from what Hydaelyn herself says. While we had lost contact with her after the blessing of light was stripped from us, we aren’t given any proof that she required a host other than Minfillia as the Voice of the Mother telling us so.

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Originally Posted by Cerat

That being said, what if Hydaelyns method of tempering also has varying levels. The first being the Echo, which is more widespread. As was mentioned previously, most inhabitants of Eorzea know nothing of the mothercrystal. However one trait we see commonly with those that have the Echo and their compatriots is a blind faith in her, and I do mean blind. We don’t question her, as is brought up numerous times. We listen to what she requests of us, and then we do it.

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The big problem with saying the Echo is how Hydaelyn tempers people is that the Ascians themselves have the Echo as well. And they hate Hydaelyn. So much so that they want Zodiark to come back and kill her. There's also the problem of the Resonant, who have somehow manage to give themselves the Echo drawn from another person.

So you've got people who like Hydaelyn who have the Echo, people who hate Hydaelyn who have the Echo and people who don't care about Hydaelyn who have the Echo. Which if the Echo is a form of Tempering makes it the weirdest (and potentially the most counter-productive) form of Tempering we've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The big problem with saying the Echo is how Hydaelyn tempers people is that the Ascians themselves have the Echo as well. And they hate Hydaelyn. So much so that they want Zodiark to come back and kill her. There's also the problem of the Resonant, who have somehow manage to give themselves the Echo drawn from another person.

So you've got people who like Hydaelyn who have the Echo, people who hate Hydaelyn who have the Echo and people who don't care about Hydaelyn who have the Echo. Which if the Echo is a form of Tempering makes it the weirdest (and potentially the most counter-productive) form of Tempering we've ever seen.

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The Ascians, save for Elidibus and Solus, are very much in the camp of serving Zodiark and wanting to usher in his return or at the very least cause the rejoining of the two beings. Having been born, at least from how it’s told this far, from the same being it would only make sense if they shared some abilities with one another. The Resonants, as we know it, do not possess the Echo, but rather are able to read the intent of a person based on how the aether shifts around them. Yes their manufactured abilities do grant them some extra powers, that’s all they are, manufactured.

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Originally Posted by Cerat

The Ascians, save for Elidibus and Solus, are very much in the camp of serving Zodiark and wanting to usher in his return or at the very least cause the rejoining of the two beings. Having been born, at least from how it’s told this far, from the same being it would only make sense if they shared some abilities with one another. The Resonants, as we know it, do not possess the Echo, but rather are able to read the intent of a person based on how the aether shifts around them. Yes their manufactured abilities do grant them some extra powers, that’s all they are, manufactured.

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I would like to point out that Fordola (as a Resonant) does indeed have the Echo... Krile's hyper-sensitive version of it. That is why she is plagued by so many visions when we see her again in 4.1 and has a bit of a humbling moment when she takes a glimpse at our memories.

I do not think Hydalen tempers if she was driven by a desire to do so she would have done a mass tempering long ago. Anytime a calamity is imminent or a flood is happening she gives out her power to a very small number of people, The Zodiac Braves have never been told as a huge group of people yet their actions have been said to be like our own, there is also Ramza, Thundergod Cid, Agrias, Mustadio who all seem to have the echo as well. Hydalen for whatever reason chooses very few people to give her power to. Atm i think only us and Ysale has had crystals of light(please correct me if Krile has said she has one i cannot remember) given to us, Matoya's crystal eye is from a past era when Hydalen had more power so at this point in time we know of 2 people from the source who had Hydalen's blessing. Krile was saved by Hydalen but again i don't think she has had a crystal and Hydalen used a child to try to save the 13th shard so she would absolutely would give Krile one but there is something else going on with who she chooses.

I am under the theory the echo makes you immune to all tempering including those from Hydalen if she does temper, because it makes the most sense to me, Hydalen seems to have the urge to save life no matter what even at the cost of herself and i doubt she would temper people since it could endanger other life if they become Zealots, the WoDs were anything but Zealots to Hydalen once the flood started and tried to cause mass devastation on the source to 'save' their shard something Hydalen actively in every era tries to mitigate/prevent.

I think we do not want to talk to Zodiark despite trying to learn his side of the story because if the ascians are anything to go by he does seem to temper, they are huge Zealots to him, care little for anything but him, and anything that may threaten him is something that has to be gotten rid of. Even Elidibus despite his balance retorts cares little about anything else, everything is just tools to him, and i personally believe Elidibus just wants balance so that calamities can happen and Zodiark can get more power back. Zodiark form of tempering seems to go along with ifrit's form of tempering while if Hydalen does temper it would be an even more subdued version of Ramuh's as his did changed the disposition of the slyphs he tempered, whereas before/after our 1st echo vision we remain the same, we do not change we continue as we have done helping others as asked.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

That's another thing I considered, but it felt like the second-most-likely interpretation because the white one-halo and white two-halo entities look as similar as the black one-halo and black two-halo entities, and only Hydaelyn is ascendant now. It's slightly awkward to say this equally-dark-to-the-dark-one-halo-one entity is the combination one. I'd expect the union entity to be some kind of, pardon the pun, gray area between them.

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Hm for me its mostly because at the beginning (as far as Ramuh told us) there was no split Light and Darkness? (Please correct me if I remember it wrong) Thus why the first dark one with two halos could have been a combination of it. Then something happens and we suddenly have Light (Hydaelyn) and darkness (Zodiark) and then sometimes later Hydaelyn has achieved the power of the original god and banished Zodiark. I mean if Zodiark is the first one he should hold both sides, while Hydaelyn is only pure light? Thus the Ascians too should be able to keep balance by using both powers, yet seemingly they also only know Darkness.

Also I wonder how 100% correct the paintings are. Who did them? The side that prayed to the darker one? Wouldnt that than mean that they believe their side was the better of the two thus the one true god would have to be black too?

If you look at the paintings there's the singular one and then it gains followers who are of the same color. Then It gets shown with followers of a different color which to me would mean that there was a theology split. Even on some people's tours of the first it seems that there was/still is churches of light worship and ones of dark worship. Then there's the ones with both Hydaelyn and Zodiark and either the red spikeyness is explosions or fire. Then there's the one that makes it look like Hydaelyn is stomping on something. Which probably is her locking up Zodiark. So, to me it feels like the split only happened because it's followers started to have differeing opinions on how to worship.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

I would like to point out that Fordola (as a Resonant) does indeed have the Echo... Krile's hyper-sensitive version of it. That is why she is plagued by so many visions when we see her again in 4.1 and has a bit of a humbling moment when she takes a glimpse at our memories.

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Fair point there! And Zenos could also be said to have the true form of the Echo with how he swapped bodies, even though unlike the Sahagin, the form remained the same as it was and not like Zenos, much more like an Ascian than the others we’ve seen so far. But that’s specifically what the power of the Resonant was made to do, it was made to replicate the powers of the Echo. Having successful candidates doesn’t mean that they were blessed by a deity/primal of some kind. The research on developing the Resonants did not even begin until Garlemald received reports of the Echo. My point was theirs was manufactured and operated differently at the core. That doesn’t mean they can’t Resonate with the Echo and see visions, or have control over aether in some regard, that’s what they were made for. It is intrinsically different than the Echo when it comes to how it was obtained, however, regardless of its ability to react to and show similar abilities to the true Echo.

I don't think it matters too much. When we're done with Zodiark, we're going to need to take out Hydaelyn as well. We can't have any threats to our rule, and they probably both drop some pretty good glamour weapons as well. We just need to remember to convert their followers when we're done with farming so that they can't reincarnate.

Sorry, did I say that out loud? Bad Fray.

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The big problem with saying the Echo is how Hydaelyn tempers people is that the Ascians themselves have the Echo as well. And they hate Hydaelyn. So much so that they want Zodiark to come back and kill her. There's also the problem of the Resonant, who have somehow manage to give themselves the Echo drawn from another person.

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Not a big problem at all, really. A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

It is very likely that the echo (or tempering, whatever side of the fence you sit on) can and would have been granted/inflicted by the one unified crystal. Naturally, just like worship or different beliefs likely caused it to split into two, its people's would also class the power differently in the presence of two different 'not-gods'. It's much like how the Ascians claim Hyde to be the parasite/imposter and Zodiark the one true god, whereas we can choose to believe Hyde is the right one and Zodi (as per Hyde's words) literally is just vying for power and that he/it should be snuffed out.

It also lends a bit of weight to Elidibus comment about how understanding the echo would actually make us of one mind on the subject. I think of this as 'the power given by the singular form before being split' and causing all this "My not-god is better than yours" conflab, or making people think they have different versions of basically the exact same echo.

Hear what others have to say, for if we keep speaking past one another we will never find true understanding.

Feel what its like on the other side, for every walk of life brings different experiences and views on life.

Think on everything you have learned, for they will guide your actions.

Honestly we don't really know for sure what Hydaelyn means when she tells us to "Hear, Feel, Think." But its going to mean something soon enough, and I'm sure it has to do with us not being tempered by her or other primals.

Everyone, it's fine. The next time you see echo on your buffbar, just click it off to double check. Easy answer! :^)

Just dropping this here cuz I think it is interesting

Perhaps it's a case of reading too much into things but I mean she speaks of it on equal level

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