Nobody Really Wants To Heal

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Generally speaking, Raid Leaders only cared if you were good at what you did regardless of Class.
Much like Savage Raiding in XIV, it was only the 'World First' raiders or hardcore progress guilds that excluded Classes, usually because they were doing what XIV players do, and take only the classes with the mathematically superior numbers. Even if it was as small as 5%, if there was an advantage to taking one class over another, they did that.

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True true, but it wasn't just 5% comparing say a Mage to a Balance Druid.
Or a Arms Warrior to a Ret Pally.

But yeah, if you had a relaxed cool raid group/server/weren't pushing to kill anything really past MC/ZG then you'd be more or less fine.

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Out of interest - do you remember your build?
And were you taken as a Shadow Priest - or a did you actually take the spot of a healer.
Cause an Spriest was useful as the mana battery, obviously, but in no way had the mana to sustain the role of a full healer.

Of course in a 40 like MC you can take 15-20 people who know what to do and they can more or less drag the Ret Pallies and Balance Druids etc through it... but it wasn't not just optimal it was deliberately going against the (bad) game design.

But of course if it worked and nobody cared then fair play.

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Healer, and I don't quite remember them being able to give mana, but my memory on that might be janky. I believe the replenishment buff didn't come till an expansion. That was given to Ret Pallies, Shadow Priests, and I want to say one of the druid specs in Lich King. But now that I think about it, it may have started with shadow priests in BC.

As for the spec, I know it had enough to get shadowform. So at least a 10/10/31 spec. Possibly 10/5/36.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Healer, and I don't quite remember them being able to give mana, but my memory on that might be janky. I believe the replenishment buff didn't come till an expansion. That was given to Ret Pallies, Shadow Priests, and I want to say one of the druid specs in Lich King. But now that I think about it, it may have started with shadow priests in BC.

As for the spec, I know it had enough to get shadowform. So at least a 10/10/31 spec. Possibly 10/5/36.

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I second this, I dont remember giving mana in the early days... but I also sort of remember that being a thing sometime before BC? Damn its hard to find versioned talent calculators.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Healer, and I don't quite remember them being able to give mana, but my memory on that might be janky. I believe the replenishment buff didn't come till an expansion. That was given to Ret Pallies, Shadow Priests, and I want to say one of the druid specs in Lich King. But now that I think about it, it may have started with shadow priests in BC.

As for the spec, I know it had enough to get shadowform. So at least a 10/10/31 spec. Possibly 10/5/36.

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Vampiric Touch was BC, that was the Mana Battery effect. in Classic they only had Vampiric Embrace, which party healed for 20% of your Shadow damage.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

You sure do like to say claim alot. Alright then educate me, since your obviously the all knowing expert please tell me how I'm wrong. Also the last poster did not specifically say they played either.

So go ahead back up your "claims" ^_^ ♡

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You can be snarky as much as you wish, it doesn't change the fact that you were wrong and everyone can see it.

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Originally Posted by AdenTaylor

You can be snarky as much as you wish, it doesn't change the fact that you were wrong and everyone can see it.

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Thank you for bumping the thread and keeping the conversation going ^_^ ♡ your so sweet.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Healer, and I don't quite remember them being able to give mana, but my memory on that might be janky. I believe the replenishment buff didn't come till an expansion. That was given to Ret Pallies, Shadow Priests, and I want to say one of the druid specs in Lich King. But now that I think about it, it may have started with shadow priests in BC.

As for the spec, I know it had enough to get shadowform. So at least a 10/10/31 spec. Possibly 10/5/36.

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I think you're right - I'm probably confusing Replenishment with Shadow Weaving. Need to get my Classic head back on >.<

As a non WoW player I couldn't care less about WoW opinions.

This game was different. A good healer was one that could meaningfully contribute to their team both Heals wise and optimize DPS.

Have you guys even seen the new rotations?

Look at it.

WHM:

https://i.imgur.com/e3aVgV7.png

Scholar:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...543775/SCH.PNG

Who actually thinks this looks fun? Anyone?

"Blah blah they're going to make healing harder" No, they won't. They cannot widen the already massive gap between the casual player base and the raiders, they've spoken about this many, many times. Any healing difficulty that will be adjusted will be in the Savage/Ultimate raids only, where, I assue you, not ONE person hoped for "Healers should heal only". Besides, everything inevitably becomes synched, then unsynched. Dungeons are already pants on head easy in terms of healing.

The new healing changes are a one way boat to snoresville.

I don't want to heal because I don't want everybody to give me an evil glare if I mess up. As a direct result of this, I have massive respect for any healers (or tanks) who don't cause wipes. Even if I don't commend you for some reason, you have my "spirit commendation".

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Originally Posted by Rockette

......

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On what is this based? Pure theorycrafting from data-mined information?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

On what is this based? Pure theorycrafting from data-mined information?

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The embargo was lifted, this information was not data mined. It's from the media who was invited there to play the game.

And I'm sick of this narrative that "it's not in the game yet, calm down". Utter rubbish. They give us the skills to look at, every expansion. This isn't new, unconfirmed information, darling. With the exception of a few potency adjustments and the outcry over WHM's lily's at the start of Stormblood, the skills and traits do not differ from what we're shown.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I second this, I dont remember giving mana in the early days... but I also sort of remember that being a thing sometime before BC? Damn its hard to find versioned talent calculators.

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Shadow Priest Mana Battery was TBC via Vampiric Touch

http://calculators.iradei.eu/talents/priest

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun.

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I don't believe this is true. As someone who mains healer & argues that healers should DPS - it's not because I don't think healers should heal. It's simply because healers aren't really required to heal because every fight is scripted.

If healers were required to full time heal, that would be fine. Healing can be fun, but as it stands right now being a "full time healer" means throwing regens on your tank, using a cooldown every 30-60 seconds, and sitting there (if you aren't DPSing) for most fights.

The only time healers are really needed are when people take avoidable attacks.
That is the issue.

If SE changes the mechanics so people would have to engage with the fight, and take more damage over all, then healing wouldn't be boring, but I don't see them changing the dead dance combat anytime soon.

Just pop in to say
I love healing, and I love just healing
The only reason I drop dot and cast dmg spell is the lack of need in healing.
If we go back to intense healing, I am absolutely going to love it

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

On what is this based? Pure theorycrafting from data-mined information?

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Datamined right from the hands-on tour that SE gave, and also during the livestream they had. :cool:

Our hackers & dataminers are working hard to bring you the most UP-TO-DATE datamines straight from the E3 floor as well, so stay tuned!

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Just pop in to say
I love healing, and I love just healing
The only reason I drop dot and cast dmg spell is the lack of need in healing.
If we go back to intense healing, I am absolutely going to love it

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Nothing else to say on that one. :)
100% agreement

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Just pop in to say
I love healing, and I love just healing
The only reason I drop dot and cast dmg spell is the lack of need in healing.
If we go back to intense healing, I am absolutely going to love it

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This....all my this's. I just want to stay busy is all. Be it full blast healing or healing mixed with damage. As long as I'm occupied and dungeons don't make me drift to youtube for entertainment, I'm a happy camper.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

I mean yea you have people that love the healing class as a general concept. A holy centric magician that can utilize the power of light to slay the enemies and rejuvenate the health of allies.

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun. It's the same situation with Tanks if all you are is just a meat shield then you may as well be a puppet with 2 buttons.

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Being a full on healer can be fun if you're given plenty of things to heal. If you still find healing boring even if you're kept busy with the task, then maybe the healer role isn't for you.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

This whole closed minded notion that "Healers only heal" and "Tanks stop doing damage leave it to DPS" is just absurd. Everybody is equal and important to the task at hand in some way shape or form and not everyone has to be one trick ponies when they dont have to.

With Shadowbringers coming up, I couldnt be more excited, but the White Mage changes are just especially heinous. The fact of the matter is you are removing OPTIONS in combat which is something you should never do regardless of the state of the game.

How do you go from a game like Final Fantasy XI where you had spells as far as the eye can see on top of the spells you obtain from your sub class usually black magic or scholar if you were a wiz kid, to now where the healer ONLY heals.

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I'm sorry but what is this? You're talking as if SE are banning healers from dpsing. Sure they trimmed down on dps abilities, but you're talking as if the whole dps side has been nerfed so much that healers' offensive magic will hit like a wet noodle. This isn't what's happening.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

And now were getting protect removed in favor of Dia which was always traditionally a lvl 1 spell now it's a max lvl spell explain that one to me.

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Protect is a role action every healer has. Dia is a dot only whm gets. I fail to see how these two are related.

While protect is iconic I can see why it's getting removed. If you have a healer with you, you always have it buffed. You're never without it and if you die it just gets rebuffed. It makes more sense to make the buff baseline instead seeing as this is how it is treated by players. However I would like to see it make a comeback in the form of a cd. As I said, it is iconic.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

Bottom line- nobody likes it when they have options taken away from them. Why do you think people enjoyed classic Wow so much? Because classes back then didnt limit you in silly ways you could make yourself whatever you wanted to back them and have skills/spells up the wazoo.

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No not everyone hates when something is taken away. Sometimes abilities are redundant, too niche, useless, have a situation like protect or there are just too many buttons. It doesn't feel like variety if something is seldom used, or if it's a one-click buff you always have on. It's also not a healthy form of variety if there's just too much to do even for a simple task. You would have been better off using the sch dps situation if you want to complain about decent variety being removed. Protect is a poor argument for this.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Did you ever actually play classic WoW? If you didn't match the specified cookie-cutter build, you'd be laughed out of parties all day. Take off the rose-tinted glasses and it's a terrible mess.

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Yea the original talent system only gave you the illusion of choice. You could spend your points in a huge number of ways but only a handful of methods yielded good results. And within each class spec the different paths of spending points in the optimal ways were super similar.

I didn't hate it, but anyone who claims it didn't have cookie-cutter builds that were clearly far better than anything else either has poor memory or hasn't actually played Classic.

They have baby'd healers too much all the way to level 70. Tanks and even dps have a difficulty curve as they get to level 70, they have to start using something else besides 3 buttons.
Healers should be expected to do the same thing as far as healing is concerned, it's time to raise their ceiling a bit.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

On what is this based? Pure theorycrafting from data-mined information?

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So do you just not pay attention? Because this info has been out in the wild for about half a month now.

I love healing, and am looking forward to being more of a pure healer, but I really hope they don't make healing incredibly stressful just so you're always busy to stave off complains of healer boredom.

people need to stop thinking that pushing more buttons = better

OP puts FFXI as example of the variety of spells we could use there (yeah I played FFXI and I loved it)

Slower combat like XI and turn based classic FFs are more focused on strategy and options because you have time to adjust, card games have more options and stategy too because of that play rithm

Faster games need to have less stuff to memorize, and not only talking about the speed of cooldowns but also that in XIV you also need to watch your step, and specially casters need to adjust a lot to movement, avoiding aoes and still doing their party role.

In this game your eyes need to pay attention to various stuff
- Floor for Aoes
- field for adds and mechanic specific stuff
- Enemy cast bar for mechanics
- Your job gauge
- Your shorcut skill bars and timers
- The party list for aggro/debuffs

Way more stuff than only your skill list, and tanks and dps can ignore most of the time the party list but healers is their main focus

If healers get bored because their "rotation" for damage does not exist, pushing 5 buttons instead of 2 wont change it much.

Game gets repeitive when you are repeating content anyway.

I love "complex" games, but this is not the focus of FFXIV, when most of the wipes comes from people dont doging aoes because they where focusing on seein if a skill proc was on or really wanted to finish the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Yurenai

I love healing, and am looking forward to being more of a pure healer, but I really hope they don't make healing incredibly stressful just so you're always busy to stave off complains of healer boredom.

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This is the issue because the healing in this game really isn't hard as is, I never had free time to dps as a healer in other games but that's because raids aren't tiny in those. Healing 8 people honestly isn't hard, I've healed 20 in other games with 2 healers for example.

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Originally Posted by jazo

If healers get bored because their "rotation" for damage does not exist, pushing 5 buttons instead of 2 wont change it much.

Game gets repeitive when you are repeating content anyway.

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Put this restriction on any other job and you will get riots and people leaving en masse but somehow it's OK for the healers. Fact is, we have to have some reasonable way to level and complete the MSQ. One 30 second dot and 1 filler spam spell from lvl 2 to level 80 is boring.

You're complaining about losing PROTECT? It's 100% a chore spell. Lol what on earth? Nobody likes losing spells-- I can do without that bloody one. And I love healing man, I'm never going to not. I bought an indie game where all you do is mmo style healing. I love it.

restrictions? did we wont be able to damage anymore?

Again, how healers level and do MSQ nowdays that you feel robbed? as I think healers level on no queue dungeons and field enemies doing things solo are not even that complex to kill even as a dps or tank, full rotations an use of all skills are more for group content iirc

Is "boring" to level on field as healer, and tank and dps etc because you are repeating the same 1-2 or 1-2-3 or 1-2-3-5-4-3-5 steps or whatever, really, what you guys expect? another button to do damage? (also did WHM have not gotten a new damage stuff that is not just a button but you need a pseudo requrimient to use?)

welp... have a nice day

I wouldn't mind a full healer with just 'dot, nuke, aoe nuke' dps options IF healing full time was necessary and interesting.

But it isn't. Well sometimes in raid/trial fights if there's a ton of damage going out, people not doing mechanics right etc, but in dungeons I often spend more time healing dhan dpsing, and I don't even have my healing optimized for maximum efficiency. I hear savage raiders also have really low % of gcds dedicated to healing compared to dps.

Full on healing I could enjoy if it was needed, but it usually isn't, especially in dungeons. As it is, I enjoy scholar because it has both a healing toolkit and an interesting enough dps toolkit for a healer job. At least in terms of aoe where we put up our dots, spread our dots, shadowflare, miasma 2 as dps options. Single target's a bit less interesting. White mage is currently kinda boring in any content where you need minimal healing, and will only become more so with the removal of aero 3. SCH is getting gutted in this regard in terms of enjoyment.

Which could, in theory, be fine, if there's enough damage output be thinking about our healing more. But if they don't change anything with the damage output, the changes will make healing quite dull. Healers don't, and SHOULD NOT, have as many dps buttons as actual dps or even tanks, but IMO they need a little more than what SHB currently has for them. Or at least give all the healers somethign like AST cards that aren't healing or directly casting damage spells to think about during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

The embargo was lifted, this information was not data mined. It's from the media who was invited there to play the game.

And I'm sick of this narrative that "it's not in the game yet, calm down". Utter rubbish. They give us the skills to look at, every expansion. This isn't new, unconfirmed information, darling. With the exception of a few potency adjustments and the outcry over WHM's lily's at the start of Stormblood, the skills and traits do not differ from what we're shown.

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I would like to point out that the theory crafting from the media tour build is still fairly inaccurate. As with Heavensward and Stormblood the Media Tour build of the game is an old build that is a few months behind the active build that the Dev's have going. So even during the Media tour that build was quite out of date. It's why a lot are waiting to see the actual potencies for release because that can easily turn some of the supposed useless abilities (Like Gunbreaker's dot that didn't give ammunition like it was supposed to) into mandatory abilities that need to be on permanent Cool Down. While we do have some of the information now, saying the people who are telling others to wait for the expac are completely wrong is also wrong. Just as much as Theory crafters have been right about how things will play out, they have also been wrong.

This game is too cookie cutter and simple. When challenge is presented to someone in this game, they think it is "too stressful" because it requires more effort to do so.

I'm becoming convinced that if we get any more of these threads there'll be a primal summoning of an angry White Mage throwing stones at people

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Originally Posted by Connor

I'm becoming convinced that if we get any more of these threads there'll be a primal summoning of an angry White Mage throwing stones at people

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That actually sounds like a fun primal concept.

I just want HW Scholar back.

Want to do everything, but my inventory is full...

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truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun.

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spent years playing a healer in guild Wars. Spent years playing a raid healer in wow. Spent years playing a meatshield tank in EQ and then wow.


To say they arent fun and nobody wants to play them is ignorant.

Not that I expected anything more from the OP, who seems to only make asinine threads on topics he has no idea wtf hes talking about.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

To say they arent fun and nobody wants to play them is ignorant.

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Though hard to argue that the Healer options in FFXIV isn't poor... They have been so sceptical about going away from the basic healing mold that we are stuck with 3 nearly identical healers.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Though hard to argue that the Healer options in FFXIV isn't poor... They have been so sceptical about going away from the basic healing mold that we are stuck with 3 nearly identical healers.

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I'm sorry but I struggle to see how this is the case now or will be in ShB. Sure all healers have some things in common, but this is for the sake of practicality. There are some base requirements any decent healer should have. But the three still have unique frequently used mechanics that are presently entirely distinct to them and even more so in ShB. Other than the selection of dps spells, I'm not seeing a serious case of over-homogenisation in the healers.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun.

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That wholly depends on your definition of fun however. I don't mind full healer or dps/heals. Both can be alot of fun.

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

I mean yea you have people that love the healing class as a general concept. A holy centric magician that can utilize the power of light to slay the enemies and rejuvenate the health of allies.

People do love to play healer but truthfully nobody wants to be a full on healer as it's boring and quite frankly just not fun. It's the same situation with Tanks if all you are is just a meat shield then you may as well be a puppet with 2 buttons.

This whole closed minded notion that "Healers only heal" and "Tanks stop doing damage leave it to DPS" is just absurd. Everybody is equal and important to the task at hand in some way shape or form and not everyone has to be one trick ponies when they dont have to.

With Shadowbringers coming up, I couldnt be more excited, but the White Mage changes are just especially heinous. The fact of the matter is you are removing OPTIONS in combat which is something you should never do regardless of the state of the game.

How do you go from a game like Final Fantasy XI where you had spells as far as the eye can see on top of the spells you obtain from your sub class usually black magic or scholar if you were a wiz kid, to now where the healer ONLY heals.

XI- Cure I II III IV V Protect Shell Blink Stoneskin Aquaveil all the Bar and En elemental buff spells Banish I II III IV V Holy Dia Diaga Diaga II Sneak Invisible Deoderize
And so many others

XIV- Protect.....Cure I, II, III, Holy....yea that's about it.

And now were getting protect removed in favor of Dia which was always traditionally a lvl 1 spell now it's a max lvl spell explain that one to me.

Bottom line- nobody likes it when they have options taken away from them. Why do you think people enjoyed classic Wow so much? Because classes back then didnt limit you in silly ways you could make yourself whatever you wanted to back them and have skills/spells up the wazoo.

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I dont know what you're on about Mate I love healing I dont care what path healing takes as long as I can still heal if I'm not doing alot of DPS or if my toolkit changes I still lve healing its literally the only class I can stay awake doing. I dont care what you say but stop trying to speak for everyone.

I take offense good sir! I love to heal!
It's also fun to cast an occasional Aero or Holy out there when we're outgunned, but having the fate of the party in my hands is exhilarating. :)

I'd say it's subjective and you're not considering SOME other people simply do not have this view. I have mained SCH since launch and I enjoy healing. I mean.. it's my thing, it's what I like doing; does this mean I'm wrong and what I like doing is wrong? No, i'd say it does not, and that's okay. We all make this work together! :)