Please fix summoner Physick

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Lets take a look at Conjurer.

Before level 30 they get Cure, Medica and Raise.

Given that a role shift of Arcanist would probably put a heal on the carbuncles, I don't think Arcanist is ill equipped to heal those demanding low level dungeons.

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Alright, let's compare the two.

Before 30, CNJ's only attacks are Stone and Aero. EVERYTHING else in their kit is devoted to healing, crowd control and support.

ACN meanwhile gets a filler, two DoTs and a spreader, an oGCD attack and a pet.

So, you're saying that one heal and an "oops" button is all it takes to qualify as a healer for 30 levels? Bearing in mind that is all RDM has at 70, by that logic, CNJ could be a DPS since it has the barest bones of a damage rotation.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright, let's compare the two.

Before 30, CNJ's only attacks are Stone and Aero. EVERYTHING else in their kit is devoted to healing, crowd control and support.

ACN meanwhile gets a filler, two DoTs and a spreader, an oGCD attack and a pet.

So, you're saying that one heal and an "oops" button is all it takes to qualify as a healer for 30 levels? Bearing in mind that is all RDM has at 70, by that logic, CNJ could be a DPS since it has the barest bones of a damage rotation.

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Uh, yeah? Have you ever healed the early levels? An arcanist right now could do it, let alone one with a pet heal were it a Healer role instead.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Uh, yeah? Have you ever healed the early levels? An arcanist right now could do it, let alone one with a pet heal were it a Healer role instead.

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That I have, and while I admit that the Fairy itself has proven more than sufficient for content up to 25, it's worth pointing out that much as the current Carbuncles are downgrades to the SMN Egis, post-healer ACN pets would probably end up as nerfed Fairies, and with the separation there would be no need to maintain their potency while downsynched -- it'd be little different in effect from getting a potency trait at 30, which sounds exactly like what they would do.

Admittedly we have no idea how a separation of the two jobs would be handled, but since they share so many abilities and ACN is presently DPS-oriented, we can practically guarantee that'll end up with more being taken out of SCH's side than SMN's, and I should expect we may even see the job reworked from the ground up.

I don't know. I said a similar thing in a different thread regarding SMN changes and it wasn't well-received, but I'll say it again here as food for thought.

If I had the magic wand and was told to fix the ACN debacle, I would probably simply delete SMN completely as it currently is, let ACN start as a healer at level 1 in Limsa and it becomes SCH at level 30 etc, and re-release SMN as a newly designed job in 5.0, giving everyone who already has the job leveled a token that can be used to instantly level it to whatever level it was at before the change for your character. They've already repeatedly lamented how they despise that ACN splits into two jobs, and many (I daresay most) people who play SMN don't particularly enjoy the DoTs and Ruin spam with an autoturret and would prefer, or at least feel like it doesn't mesh with what seems to be the fantasy of a "summoner".

This is obviously a fantasy and is definitely far beyond the scope of "fix SMN's physick", but again if I had the magic wand, I think it would be a reasonable solution to this problem and many (many many) others regarding ACN.

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Originally Posted by LeonTrifang

“But Leon, Summoner is DPS”

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Sums up my rebuttal

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Literally the only healing-related actions available to Arcanist are Physick and Resurrection.

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With a role change it'd have a heal, a raise, esuna & protect. That's fine for pre-30.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

The last time I used Physick, my fully-kitted level 65 SMN healed for just over 500 on a health pool of over 22k.
Physick has a higher potency than Vercure, which can restore nearly half of my capped RDM's health per cast.

Tell me again that it's scaling off the proper stat, because I guarantee that's not INT.

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I said all other shared actions scale with the correct stat, and that they do it without a trait.
Scholar and Summoner also share energy drain for example, and it scales correctly for both, and it does it without either job having a stat altering trait.

Your proposed trait was essentially just 'Physick scales exactly like it is supposed to but now can't be cast on others'. Sure, it'd be nice if physick worked right, but it'd mean SMN goes from being the only job with a skill that doesn't scale properly to the only job with a trait that's an outright downgrade.

WOW THIS POST BLEW UP! THIS HAS TO BE MY MOST POPULAR POST! I’M SO HAPPY! THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR COMMENTING!

A big problem with buffing Summoner's Physick so that it has roughly the power of Vercure, Scholar!Physick, or Cure 1 is that the overall cost to the Summoner actually using it is significantly less than it is for a Red Mage or a Healer. The vast majority of Summoner's moment to moment damage is coming from Bio III and Miasma III, while the Ruin III Spam you usually do is very low impact filler at only 120 potency. The average potency of the spell a Red Mage would give up (Jolt II/Ver-anything not Holy/Flare) to cast a Vercure is 2-2.5 times higher in potency (240-310 potency), while what the healers give up is about two ruins (Broil/Malefic III: 220 potency, Stone IV: 250). For it to be proportional they'd have to tone down the potency of the heal to be something like 125 or something extremely low.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I raid with my RDM and never needed to Vercure. It heals like 11k HP, that's less than a single auto attack. That shit ain't keeping anyone alive. I've never seen vercure save someone in Savage.

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In general I agree with you. I've seen a Red Mage spot heal and have it not be overheal exactly once in a Raid setting. It's so rare an occurrence to be Nonexistent and it really speaks more to the sheer skill and awareness of the Red Mage I was raiding with at the time than it speaks to Red Mage's ability to actually perform as a third string healer.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

In general I agree with you. I've seen a Red Mage spot heal and have it not be overheal exactly once in a Raid setting. It's so rare an occurrence to be Nonexistent and it really speaks more to the sheer skill and awareness of the Red Mage I was raiding with at the time than it speaks to Red Mage's ability to actually perform as a third string healer.

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You're right... which could only mean this is a smn conspiracy to compete with rdm in the true endgame content.... solo palace runs.

We're onto your dirty games, summoners!

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

You're right... which could only mean this is a smn conspiracy to compete with rdm in the true endgame content.... solo palace runs.

We're onto your dirty games, summoners!

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Meanwhile, over on the Black Mage corner.

https://i.imgflip.com/30qdb0.jpg

SUM is fine the way it is. If any teaks need to be made to healing spells I would reccomend giving the AST a instant AOE heal like Indomitability or Assize. I do not think giving dps a heal is wize. Enough casters stand in avoidable mechanics. Giving them a way to heal themselves is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

SUM is fine the way it is. If any teaks need to be made to healing spells I would reccomend giving the AST a instant AOE heal like Indomitability or Assize. I do not think giving dps a heal is wize. Enough casters stand in avoidable mechanics. Giving them a way to heal themselves is not needed.

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So you mean like Earthly Star? It takes more pre-planning than Indom does (and you never hold Assize for healing, btw), but it’s an instant heal. Then again, all healing in this game is usually planned; because all damage is scripted.

Assize is a great instant heal and has a much bigger aoe heal than planetary indulgance. Every time I cast Assize everyone in the massive aoe recieves a 20k heal, while helping to dps. Not using this is silly. As far as earthly star is concerned it is not instant. It requires manually targeting. The other two are 1 button press aoe heals usable easily while moving.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Assize is a great instant heal and has a much bigger aoe heal than planetary indulgance. Every time I cast Assize everyone in the massive aoe recieves a 20k heal, while helping to dps. Not using this is silly. As far as earthly star is concerned it is not instant. It requires manually targeting. The other two are 1 button press aoe heals usable easily while moving.

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In terms of optimization, you never hold it for healing. Because then you lose casts of it throughout a fight, and that’s inefficient use of your kit. Assize is a damage button—especially after the recent buff to it that lowered its CD to 45 seconds. It’s not something you use for AOE healing on WHM: that’s what your HoTs and Asylum are for.

Earthly Star you pre-plan for. If you place it and use it correctly, it blows up on its own without you having to toggle it for an AOE. If you’re concerned about movement and healing, that’s what you use Lightspeed for.

But, by all means—let’s break AST some more and make it even more valued over WHM. :D

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

If any teaks need to be made to healing spells I would reccomend giving the AST a instant AOE heal like Indomitability or Assize.

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daily reminder that AST is capable of actually solo healing an ultimate fight already

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

In terms of optimization, you never hold it for healing. Because then you lose casts of it throughout a fight, and that’s inefficient use of your kit. Assize is a damage button—especially after the recent buff to it that lowered its CD to 45 seconds. It’s not something you use for AOE healing on WHM: that’s what your HoTs and Asylum are for.

Earthly Star you pre-plan for. If you place it and use it correctly, it blows up on its own without you having to toggle it for an AOE. If you’re concerned about movement and healing, that’s what you use Lightspeed for.

But, by all means—let’s break AST some more and make it even more valued over WHM. :D

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Thank you for telling me how I need to play my class. I'm so glad to know that I'm not able to use the skills that I want to use because you have decided for me what I should and shouldn't do. As far as checking your stacks of flowers in a 24 man raid with mass chaos reszzing healer from other parties and rezzing own party members constant mass of heals nobody has the time to check their flowers and to be honest with you there is hardly ever a cure or cure 2 cast. It's mainly about AOE healing. As a returning player people like myself run into arrogant elitist like yourself who tell us that we're doing everything wrong and we need to conform to your way of doing things. If you want fresh blood in the community learn to play nice and get along with us. I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it. And I certainly don't need to hear that you think I'm not playing my class correctly because that is upsetting. Thanks elitist.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Thank you for telling me how I need to play my class. I'm so glad to know that I'm not able to use the skills that I want to use because you have decided for me what I should and shouldn't do. As far as checking your stacks of flowers in a 24 man raid with mass chaos reszzing healer from other parties and rezzing own party members constant mass of heals nobody has the time to check their flowers and to be honest with you there is hardly ever a cure or cure 2 cast. It's mainly about AOE healing. As a returning player people like myself run into arrogant elitist like yourself who tell us that we're doing everything wrong and we need to conform to your way of doing things. If you want fresh blood in the community learn to play nice and get along with us. I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it. And I certainly don't need to hear that you think I'm not playing my class correctly because that is upsetting. Thanks elitist.

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Hilarious, even managed to fit in the "elitist" buzzword.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Thank you for telling me how I need to play my class. I'm so glad to know that I'm not able to use the skills that I want to use because you have decided for me what I should and shouldn't do. As far as checking your stacks of flowers in a 24 man raid with mass chaos reszzing healer from other parties and rezzing own party members constant mass of heals nobody has the time to check their flowers and to be honest with you there is hardly ever a cure or cure 2 cast. It's mainly about AOE healing. As a returning player people like myself run into arrogant elitist like yourself who tell us that we're doing everything wrong and we need to conform to your way of doing things. If you want fresh blood in the community learn to play nice and get along with us. I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it. And I certainly don't need to hear that you think I'm not playing my class correctly because that is upsetting. Thanks elitist.

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"Thanks for telling me I shouldn't attempt to hammer the square peg into the round hole when i have a round peg, but that's elitist."

but memes aside, I'd like to get back to silly ideas for smn's physick. I swear I actually heard somewhere that somehow physic had the nichest of niche group dps gains by cheesing lb generation on somebody under 10% because you could get multiple 'critical healing' limit break boosts because it heals next to nothing, and was potentially equivalent to 180 potency of dps(over r3's 120) for a melee lb3 if not overcapped.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Thank you for telling me how I need to play my class. I'm so glad to know that I'm not able to use the skills that I want to use because you have decided for me what I should and shouldn't do.

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If you asked any healer main that optimizes WHM, they would tell you the same things I did. Assize has become a DPS button. Not a healing button. You can save it for healing if you want...but if you do save it for healing, it’s sub-optimal. Because you will lose casts throughout a fight of it.

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As far as checking your stacks of flowers in a 24 man raid with mass chaos reszzing healer from other parties and rezzing own party members constant mass of heals nobody has the time to check their flowers and to be honest with you there is hardly ever a cure or cure 2 cast.

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The gauge sounds when you have 3 lilies. That being said, unless you’re prepping a Plenary, the lilies are a worthless mechanic on WHM and are largely ignored. Have been since 4.0 launch.

You don’t really need to tell me about the hectic-ness of 24-mans. I routinely heal them.

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It's mainly about AOE healing.

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Yes. Which is what your HoTs are for (e.g., Medica II and Asylum, assuming you can get players to stand in the latter).

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As a returning player people like myself run into arrogant elitist like yourself who tell us that we're doing everything wrong and we need to conform to your way of doing things. If you want fresh blood in the community learn to play nice and get along with us. I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it. And I certainly don't need to hear that you think I'm not playing my class correctly because that is upsetting. Thanks elitist.

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Lol.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you asked any healer main that optimizes WHM, they would tell you the same things I did. Assize has become a DPS button. Not a healing button. You can save it for healing if you want...but if you do save it for healing, it’s sub-optimal. Because you will lose casts throughout a fight of it.



The gauge sounds when you have 3 lilies. That being said, unless you’re prepping a Plenary, the lilies are a worthless mechanic on WHM and are largely ignored. Have been since 4.0 launch.

You don’t really need to tell me about the hectic-ness of 24-mans. I routinely heal them.



Yes. Which is what your HoTs are for (e.g., Medica II and Asylum, assuming you can get players to stand in the latter).



Lol.

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Please stop replying to me bump for harassment

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Please stop replying to me bump for harassment

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You know you're not obligated to respond yeah?

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Please stop replying to me bump for harassment

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It’s not harassment to respond to a post you made replying to me. That being said, if you don’t want to talk to me, why are you continuing to reply?

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

Thank you for telling me how I need to play my class. I'm so glad to know that I'm not able to use the skills that I want to use because you have decided for me what I should and shouldn't do. As far as checking your stacks of flowers in a 24 man raid with mass chaos reszzing healer from other parties and rezzing own party members constant mass of heals nobody has the time to check their flowers and to be honest with you there is hardly ever a cure or cure 2 cast. It's mainly about AOE healing. As a returning player people like myself run into arrogant elitist like yourself who tell us that we're doing everything wrong and we need to conform to your way of doing things. If you want fresh blood in the community learn to play nice and get along with us. I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it. And I certainly don't need to hear that you think I'm not playing my class correctly because that is upsetting. Thanks elitist.

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Translation: "I can play however I like even if mathematically and statistically speaking, it's clearly inferior. And you, player with far more experience at higher level content, better not dare criticise me otherwise you are an E L I T I S T."

If this is the attitude you're going to offer the community. I will gladly pass on "fresh blood."

I take back what i said about going back to the topic, this is also good. continue

https://discordemoji.com/assets/emoji/blobcorn.png

So by saying that I have to play to the way you say you would kick me out of a raid if I used assize instead of planetary Indulgence?

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

So by saying that I have to play to the way you say you would kick me out of a raid if I used assize instead of planetary Indulgence?

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Please quote for me where I said I would kick you. I’ll wait.

I'm basing that off of your quote on quote translation of my words

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

So by saying that I have to play to the way you say you would kick me out of a raid if I used assize instead of planetary Indulgence?

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I mean, anything you've joined in DF i wouldn't really justify as a 'raid', and is thus toned down for the average player. So that wouldn't really be an issue. Optimal play is only really required for current savage and ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

I'm basing that off of your quote on quote translation of my words

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Except I never said that I would kick you. I said you were playing suboptimally by holding Assize for healing, because that’s not how it’s used in an optimal way. That doesn’t translate into “I will kick you”.

It's funny because I'm assuming that these same people I'm talking to are probably the same players that I run into duty find a raid with that have 400 item level gear that I'm the one who's constantly raising them and I'm the one following the mechanics while they're sitting there DPS'int & doing dumb stuff while telling us how great they are

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

It's funny because I'm assuming that these same people I'm talking to are probably the same players that I run into duty find a raid with that have 400 item level gear that I'm the one who's constantly raising them and I'm the one following the mechanics while they're sitting there DPS in doing dumb stuff and telling us how great they are

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Considering we aren’t even on the same data center, it’s highly unlikely that you’ve ran into me in any content.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

So by saying that I have to play to the way you say you would kick me out of a raid if I used assize instead of planetary Indulgence?

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Not necessarily. If your continuous sub-optimal healing resulted in less than a 1,000 DPS. I would strongly consider it at a Savage level. And it would be all but guaranteed if it led to frequent deaths because, at that point, you clearly aren't ready for harder content. Regardless, my retort was primarily directed towards your snippy attitude when someone offered advice on how you could heal more efficiently. It wasn't as though HyoMin were rude. You simply jumped on her with sarcastic quips because she corrected you, then spewed out how elitist she was being. Coincidentally, the very thread you complained about elsewhere (Tales of the Duty Finder) exists precisely because of attitudes like this.

I meeeeeeeeeean...

in Orbonne, it's not unusual for the party to go !@#% off and die before Medica finishes to top them off. There are several points in each boss fight where I"ll hold Assize for 5-10 seconds just because it's less of a hassle to top them off that way.

Plus. Assize restores mp. Saving it for healing wastes one of your mp restoration moves.

A textbook Forum Princess Healer, yowza... Also:

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

I offered an opinion if you don't like it oh well it's America you're entitled to your opinion I don't need to keep hearing it.

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Did America take over Europe while I was asleep? o_o

personally i would like Vercure,physick and the raises off RDM and SMN
i dont see Vercure going since RDM is like the only job thats gotten to floor 200 in potd solo

but Physick should just be off SMN and Raise on DPS just makes them healer insurance.

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Originally Posted by Lordfurious

It's funny because I'm assuming that these same people I'm talking to are probably the same players that I run into duty find a raid with that have 400 item level gear that I'm the one who's constantly raising them and I'm the one following the mechanics while they're sitting there DPS'int & doing dumb stuff while telling us how great they are

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You know I'd be open to give credit, but right now your main job on this forum is listed as a lvl 70 Conjurer. So I can't even give you that lmao.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

A textbook Forum Princess Healer, yowza... Also:



Did America take over Europe while I was asleep? o_o

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If Europe found any oil while you were out, probably.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

personally i would like Vercure,physick and the raises off RDM and SMN
i dont see Vercure going since RDM is like the only job thats gotten to floor 200 in potd solo

but Physick should just be off SMN and Raise on DPS just makes them healer insurance.

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In general I agree, though if vercure is taken from RDM they need another spell to be able to proc dualcast during intermissions, as that's the main use of it in endgame.

While SMN does have a core weakness in survivability when it comes down to emergency measures (lack of self-healing cooldowns in a pinch, shielding and emergency quick movement), making Physick be a viable healing GCD is not the way forward.

Why? Look at the value of SMN damage GCDs and compare them to healers, do we really want to head towards a timeline where a DPS, where oGCD heals alone won't cut it, should be healing over a healer for single target or just to top up because the DPS' GCDs are that much weaker? RDM would already be doing this more were it not for the fact that their GCDs are all stronger, to begin with.

Jack's already mentioned that our current situation is one where Physick can be used as a raid DPS gain over core Ruin GCDs under niche scenarios for Limit Break generation (which will be explained in my Limit Break document that is soon to be out). While on one hand, the low healing of Physick enables this, being correct to use is entirely on SMN core Ruins being that much weaker than the ~180 Caster potency threshold.

If SE were to decide to improve the emergency measures situation, make it so that Erase can be used on self as a shared caster Second Wind equivalent that provides enough in a pinch that Drain alone isn't sufficient for (especially in downtime phases). We do not need stronger sustained healing.

Yes, I hope either they fix SMN Physick or remove it because it's annoying