Black Mage's quirky cross class abilities

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Seems in line with the job's role (support)

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this.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Bunch of TK wanted to play XIV on release, but I'm the only survivor past 1-2 months in JP or NA that I know of :(

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What's a good place I can get in touch with you? Talk about the server merge stuff.

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

Did i just read someone wisjes to trade second wind and quelling strike for cure stoneskin..on th blm job... Come on guys your pushing it..its blm..not rdm or whm... Final fantasy much?

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Originally Posted by Tatsuguy

Too bad you're not rdm =/

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Sadly... I'm a RDM at heart. And I do tend to play very diverse roles in group. In reply to the "Final Fantasy much" comment, BLMs in FFXI almost always subbed RDM or WHM giving them the abilities of curing and protecting themselves with Stoneskin. Also I said nothing about trading Quelling Strike, just Second Wind and Feather Foot.

Man, getting a lot of hate for this thread just thinking out loud. Oh well. Whachagonnado....

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Originally Posted by Krausus

seems to me BRD is the one that didnt make out well with cross class, I dont see any reason for BRD to use many of the THM abilities at all

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Seriously? You can't see Resonance being usefull for buffs or for one of only 3 classes that can use raise?

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

BRD is the only job able to Sacred Prism => Sanguine Rite. There's also possibility for Resonance + Cure / Protect / Stoneskin / Raise, again, only bards can do that.

Seems in line with the job's role (support)

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ahhh yeah guess I didn't think about the thm cross class being useful with the cnj cross class, good point.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Seriously? You can't see Resonance being usefull for buffs or for one of only 3 classes that can use raise?

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If I would have meant raise I would have said CNJ not THM.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Seriously? You can't see Resonance being usefull for buffs or for one of only 3 classes that can use raise?

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The question is, will Bards even equip Resonance? I'm thinking the staple abilities almost all BRDs will equip are Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Sacred Prism and Sanguine Rite.

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Originally Posted by electrikALIEN

The question is, will Bards even equip Resonance? I'm thinking the staple abilities almost all BRDs will equip are Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Sacred Prism and Sanguine Rite.

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Can forfeit Protect. The WHM can do that instead, especially if you want your Elemental Resistances to go up.

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Originally Posted by electrikALIEN

The question is, will Bards even equip Resonance? I'm thinking the staple abilities almost all BRDs will equip are Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Sacred Prism and Sanguine Rite.

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it will be good for raise I cant think of any reason to use it with most the buffs

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Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss

It seems wrong to me for a black mage to be able to heal others.
Second wind is a good self heal and does not take from your MP pool.

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the weird thing is that you dont get all the elemental spells conjurer have, that would take 4 slots having the chance to put chameleon or quelling strikes

i wish BRD had lnc or mrd as base....

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Originally Posted by electrikALIEN

What's a good place I can get in touch with you? Talk about the server merge stuff.

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BG PM is the easiest. If you don't have an account on BG account LJ PM still works I think.

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Originally Posted by electrikALIEN

The question is, will Bards even equip Resonance? I'm thinking the staple abilities almost all BRDs will equip are Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Sacred Prism and Sanguine Rite.

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Depends on how the bards songs work to be honest.

If they are self target aoe then i can see skipping it in favor of what you listed.
If they are targeted aoe that could open up a whole boat load of options in battle and would defiantly put resonance in to consideration.

Brd is a buff debuff job. Makes sense it has cnj and thm as sub classes

As Said many times jobs are for party roles and are not meant to be able to do everything.

Blm = Nuker- Pgl/archer abilities help with hate an make blm focus on dd/crowd control and nothing else.
Mnk= DD- lnc/arch abilities make mnk focus purely on DD and nothing else.
Drg= DD- pgl/arch same as mnk pretty much.
Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above.
Whm= Healer- gld/pgl gives them defensive abilities allowing them to focus on others rather then themselves.
pld= tank- mrd/cnj gives them tools to get/keep hate and defensive abilities.

That's the whole point of jobs is to make them rely on each other to make the party experience much more strategic and challenging. something I think will be great for the game.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

As Said many times jobs are for party roles and are not meant to be able to do everything.

Blm = Nuker- Pgl/archer abilities help with hate an make blm focus on dd/crowd control and nothing else.
Mnk= DD- lnc/arch abilities make mnk focus purely on DD and nothing else.
Drg= DD- pgl/arch same as mnk pretty much.
Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above.
Whm= Healer- gld/pgl gives them defensive abilities allowing them to focus on others rather then themselves.
pld= tank- mrd/cnj gives them tools to get/keep hate and defensive abilities.

That's the whole point of jobs is to make them rely on each other to make the party experience much more strategic and challenging. something I think will be great for the game.

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We should clone you and fill the forum with ppl that understand like you and dont panic cause they see pgl .hand.. No blm help uga uga.....

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

As Said many times jobs are for party roles and are not meant to be able to do everything.

Blm = Nuker- Pgl/archer abilities help with hate an make blm focus on dd/crowd control and nothing else.
Mnk= DD- lnc/arch abilities make mnk focus purely on DD and nothing else.
Drg= DD- pgl/arch same as mnk pretty much.
Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above.
Whm= Healer- gld/pgl gives them defensive abilities allowing them to focus on others rather then themselves.
pld= tank- mrd/cnj gives them tools to get/keep hate and defensive abilities.

That's the whole point of jobs is to make them rely on each other to make the party experience much more strategic and challenging. something I think will be great for the game.

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Nice... but you left out Warrior D:

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Nice... but you left out Warrior D:

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Axe to face needs no explanation. Its the perfect contingency plan!

This patch couldn't come soon enough.
People just don't get it and won't get it until they play the patch. Even then they might not get it.

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Originally Posted by elreed

the weird thing is that you dont get all the elemental spells conjurer have, that would take 4 slots having the chance to put chameleon or quelling strikes

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If you must know Blm usually learn only 3 element spells Fire thunder and ice and thunder usually being their best spells...

i just see paladin being a brick wall like a mofo, and can heal.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Nice... but you left out Warrior D:

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Warrior is ugly!

Hmm...quelling strike says physical attacks only in the JP description.

I use quelling strike with spells as a THM. My threat barely moves and I get TP back. So it does work.

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Originally Posted by Klive

I use quelling strike with spells as a THM. My threat barely moves and I get TP back. So it does work.

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Sad i need to lvl arc now i absolutely hate that class no i need to get it 22 for that skill.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

As Said many times jobs are for party roles and are not meant to be able to do everything.

Blm = Nuker- Pgl/archer abilities help with hate an make blm focus on dd/crowd control and nothing else.
Mnk= DD- lnc/arch abilities make mnk focus purely on DD and nothing else.
Drg= DD- pgl/arch same as mnk pretty much.
Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above.
Whm= Healer- gld/pgl gives them defensive abilities allowing them to focus on others rather then themselves.
pld= tank- mrd/cnj gives them tools to get/keep hate and defensive abilities.

That's the whole point of jobs is to make them rely on each other to make the party experience much more strategic and challenging. something I think will be great for the game.

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Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above, on top of having the capabilities, which rival MNK and LNC, from a ranged position.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Brd= support- cnj/thm allows bard to be full support doing things no other jobs can do as stated above, on top of having the capabilities, which rival MNK and LNC, from a ranged position.

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Brd losing lnc abilities and having to do songs will hurt its dps greatly. I doubt it will be able to keep up with mnk/drg

They lose Invigorate, they gain tp song. It's very easy for Arc to gain tp anyway. War is going to be starving for tp. Monk will have mp issues, hopefully mp song is good. But question is are all the songs going to stack? And would melee want mp song over tp song if not? Besides that: in a party with multiple brds, they can just focus on DD too with a song once in a while. They don't have to be a full support role. They can manage their light shots around songs too...

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

They lose Invigorate, they gain tp song. It's very easy for Arc to gain tp anyway. War is going to be starving for tp. Monk will have mp issues, hopefully mp song is good. But question is are all the songs going to stack? And would melee want mp song over tp song if not? Besides that: in a party with multiple brds, they can just focus on DD too with a song once in a while. They don't have to be a full support role. They can manage their light shots around songs too...

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Keen Flurry + Quick nock is Archer's strongest attack. Using quick nock every 1.30 instead of 3 mins makes a huge difference in Damage. Invigorate + Tp or mp song will boost mnk/drg damage even more.

It's not just about songs. Brd can help with stoneskin/cure to when needed. If you think a support job with DD capabilities is going to be able to keep up with pure DDs you are sadly mistaking.

It's simple everything brd will get to boost is dps. MNK/Drg will get and more.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Hmm...quelling strike says physical attacks only in the JP description.

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It's a known issue. (link)

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Keen Flurry + Quick nock is Archer's strongest attack. Using quick nock every 1.30 instead of 3 mins makes a huge difference in Damage. Invigorate + Tp or mp song will boost mnk/drg damage even more.

It's not just about songs. Brd can help with stoneskin/cure to when needed. If you think a support job with DD capabilities is going to be able to keep up with pure DDs you are sadly mistaking.

It's simple everything brd will get to boost is dps. MNK/Drg will get and more.

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I don't understand why you deny the DD part of BRD. Brd is not solely a support class, it's a class which has the option to pick between support and dd or any degree of it in between.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I don't understand why you deny the DD part of BRD. Brd is not solely a support class, it's a class which has the option to pick between support and dd or any degree of it in between.

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I'm not denying it. Whm has DD abilities to. As does War. But when they focus on other things. It hurts their dps. Will they be able to do decent damage? yes Will the be able to keep up with pure dd such as war/mnk/drg? No

It's not about what a Job can and can't do. Its about what the jobs main role is in the party and brd's main role is support not dps.

Just because they only get damage abilities, doesn't mean they'll do more damage.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Just because they only get damage abilities, doesn't mean they'll do more damage.

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What kind of logic is that?

Ya cleary 2 jobs that's sole purpose is to do damage. Only 2 jobs that will have skills to increase their damage. 2 out of 3 jobs that will spent the entire fight doing damage. Be able to use more Auto attacks and weapon skills. Hit Faster and harder.
Are going to suck compared to a job that has no skills to increase it's own damage. has to run around the field to cast those buffs.

If a Brd is able to out dmg mnk/drg/blm then the job system is really messed up.

Edit: I'm not sure what you have done in this game or how much you know.

But go get 2 even matched archers. Have 1 use lnc's abilities. and the other use only its own and compare the dmg. Now do the same with plg and lnc. while that archer is still only using its own abilities.
I Seriously doubt that archer not using lnc abilities will get close to the others.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

If a Brd is able to out dmg mnk/drg/blm then the job system is really messed up.

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That's what I have been saying all this time. Brd will be able to do equal damage and have support abilities on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

But go get 2 even matched archers. Have 1 use lnc's abilities. and the other use only its own and compare the dmg. Now do the same with plg and lnc. while that archer is still only using its own abilities.
I Seriously doubt that archer not using lnc abilities will get close to the others.

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And that's why we use a parser and not go with just feelings. I'm not disagreeing with you that losing Invigorate and Keen Flurry are a damage loss. I'm saying the Arc damage is so high that even with taking the damage cut for missing those two abilities they will still be on par when it comes to doing damage.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

That's what I have been saying all this time. Brd will be able to do equal damage and have support abilities on top of that.



And that's why we use a parser and not go with just feelings. I'm not disagreeing with you that losing Invigorate and Keen Flurry are a damage loss. I'm saying the Arc damage is so high that even with taking the damage cut for missing those two abilities they will still be on par when it comes to doing damage.

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Archer damage is not higher then PGls atm. 1 Vs 1 Pgl will blow archer away. The only Reason Archer is favored for moogle is because its much easy to hit combo's. Same reason people favored lancer for Ifrit and now thm. not because its the strongest DD. But because it's the easiest.

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Originally Posted by electrikALIEN

But still... I'd gladly trade second wind and feather foot for cure, stoneskin and protect....

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I understand your point, but then again you could stick to playing THM without activating the BLM job. From my understanding, you'll be able to function a lot better solo using base classes and their higher cross-class potential than from using Jobs. These are intended for party play where more specific roles become valuable. In a party as a BLM, you're not likely to have to worry about healing yourself, that responsibility goes to WHM, BRD, PLD jobs and other party members using base classes with healing/buffing spells equipped. If you opt for Black Mage, your role will shift to dealing high levels of damage with more powerful spells and abilities at your disposal, and your principal worry will be to manage the enmity generated by that, and avoid getting hit. Necrogenesis and Second Wind are good for last-minute recovery in case you accidentally grab too much hate and get hit, or if you get smacked by an AoE attack, but that's generally all you'll need. If you get hit enough to justify your need of Cure and Stoneskin as a BLM, well, I'd say you're doing it wrong.

Classes = Horizontal development (more cross-class flexibility, no focused improvements, but strength through variety and versatility)
Jobs = Vertical development (less cross-class flexibility, but highly focused improvements through exclusive abilities and gear)

Both have their situational uses, that's why you can toggle them on/off and aren't forced to use them. Give it a try first, I trust that they did a good job balancing it all.

Also... think of Rydia in Final Fantasy IV, she used to be able to use simple White and Black magic as well as simple summons as a child, but growing up she chose to abandon White magic in favour of more powerful Black magic. It makes sense to me that a full-fledged Black Mage wouldn't touch white magic with a six foot pole. I'm not surprised the BLM job is locked out of using CNJ spells

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

That's what I have been saying all this time. Brd will be able to do equal damage and have support abilities on top of that.

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Don't forget that Jobs will also alter character stats. It's entirely possible that the BRD job with all its advantageous buffing abilities will have a lowered damage rating compared to ARC. The same way we can safely expect BLM to see its defense drop compared to THM.

i am wondering what people are going to do within the primal fights without sentinel? being limited to equip skills from just two specific classes...

Will people keep playing the mainclasses within these fights? and not the jobs?

i see that problem.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I don't understand why you deny the DD part of BRD. Brd is not solely a support class, it's a class which has the option to pick between support and dd or any degree of it in between.

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while this is still in speculation phase, basically everything Xianghua is saying is dead on (theoretically). yes, bard can still DD and should still DD- but that is not their primary focus, and they likely will not have the top-end damage capabilities of other dps-focused jobs. a perfectly played bard should keep their songs up, support when useful/necessary, and maximize dps output otherwise.

that said- any bard choosing not to use their job-specific support abilities because they prefer to just faceroll dps can choose to stay the hell out of my raid parties. ;) ffxiv's version of a melee rdm? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Archer damage is not higher then PGls atm. 1 Vs 1 Pgl will blow archer away. The only Reason Archer is favored for moogle is because its much easy to hit combo's. Same reason people favored lancer for Ifrit and now thm. not because its the strongest DD. But because it's the easiest.

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ehhhhh. they're about even. all of the dps classes are balanced pretty well right now. PGL only has a slight edge thanks to GLD (and MRD and King to a degree) having high physical defense and lower magic defense. (though archer can make up some of the ground here by equipping thunder or whatever nuke and spamming it on GLD in between barrage and quick nock)

also, while yes- archer is the primary choice for moogle because it lacks directional combos (and has the luxury of not having combos interrupted by aoe), calling it 'easier' is a bit misleading. right now archer has the highest skill ceiling of any dps class due primarily to the need to micromanage your own 'auto attack' in between keeping combos on cooldown, while every other class can focus on movement and combos alone- in spite of how annoying movement is in that fight.

an archer doing everything right should be almost perpetually animation locked, and i can assure you that makes the class much, much, much more difficult than you're accounting for.

so while archer may be the easiest to pick up for moogle, it's also certainly the hardest to master.

as far as 1v1, a better judge is on Ifrit- where the two classes (played correctly) should be about dead even in dps. though this again is likely a moot discussion after 1.21