The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

---

Considering Hythlodaeus' dialogue differs depending on your PC's gender... yes, probably.

I wonder if Fandaniel might attempt to reintegrate all of his shards and make himself an Unsundered Overlord. Presumably, Elidibus was keeping the Ascians in check and preventing this sort of abuse of power. While we kind of have to take Elidibus at his word that only the Unsundered can raise an Ascian up to their former title and power, that says nothing about consolidating all of your alternate selves into one.

Interestingly, I also wonder if Nabriales and Igeyorhm are truly gone. While they may have been eradicated using the same method that annihilated the Unsundered trio, their shard counterparts are presumably still around. Does the absolute destruction of a Sundered Ascian preclude their rebirth via a new shard copy? The Scions seem to believe that to be the case, although I'm not entirely sure why. Unless raising an Ascian up to office requires imparting them with the aether of the previous title-holder, and not having that aether present prevents the replacement from working, there doesn't seem to be any reason why Nabriales and Igeyorhm (and Mitron and Loghrif etc.) couldn't have been raised up again by Elidibus prior to 5.3. It makes very little sense for him to allow the Ascian numbers to dwindle so low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Did the ancients have genders? It's possible that they move between male and female bodies

---

The Ancients definetely had actual gender - besides numerous Ascians specifically identifiying as female, there is also Venat who was an Ancient stated as being a woman who, of course, never became an Ascian (as she led Hydaelyn's summoning and became her core).

To say nothing of the Amuarotine shades stating the Ancients bore children normally (the player character and the Archons were constantly being called 'children' and being told "to return to your studies and one day you too shall be an exemplery citizen of Amaurot!", and that how even newborn babies had the power of Creation magic), although it was unclear if any of the shades in Emet's reconstruction of Amaurot were stated as being male or female, given the above info it's pretty clear that they identified as one or the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonaEtwahl

I wonder if Fandaniel might attempt to reintegrate all of his shards and make himself an Unsundered Overlord.

---

That would be an interesting twist given past conversations where people seem convinced we're going to be gathering up the rest of our soul-shards for some reason... which we shouldn't for ethical reasons, never mind the logistics, but Fandaniel may not have an issue with either of those things.

And the writers have already turned the "what if the WoL is a primal" thing on its head, so.

Then again it's probably not all that engaging for him to be popping off to random shards and coming back slightly more complete, but you could go the route of him targeting specific people we know on the Source and First in the process. Possibly even our small pool of survivors from the Thirteenth.

Of course there's an important question here: how easy is it to track down soul shards in the first place? Can anyone "find themselves" if they concentrate hard enough or did it need Emet's particular skill to identify them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Of course there's an important question here: how easy is it to track down soul shards in the first place? Can anyone "find themselves" if they concentrate hard enough or did it need Emet's particular skill to identify them?

---

You know, since we learned about the soul colours and some people being able to see them in 5.0 I'm always reminded of the Dotharl and how the Khan - currently Sadu - is presumably able to tell whose soul a newborn has. So I would assume even to this day, some people (Sadu, Seto) still have the ability. It might not be as potent as Emet's or Hyth's but it is there and probably still as rare as it was in the days of the ancients.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SonaEtwahl

Unless raising an Ascian up to office requires imparting them with the aether of the previous title-holder, and not having that aether present prevents the replacement from working, there doesn't seem to be any reason why Nabriales and Igeyorhm (and Mitron and Loghrif etc.) couldn't have been raised up again by Elidibus prior to 5.3. It makes very little sense for him to allow the Ascian numbers to dwindle so low.

---

We don't know what the process is for raising up an Ascian. It may not be as simple as grabbing the poor shmuck by the neck and going - BAM! You're an Ascian now! Bwahahahaha! It could be a process that takes literally years to do. Or it may take a tremendous amount of energy, the expending of which would leave Elidibus unable to execute other duties for a while (such as the very pressing duty of slaying the WoL).

If it is a simple, uncostly process - maybe he HAS raised them, and they're otherwise occupied, just as the other "unaccounted" Ascians seem to be.

I feel like they're probably going to use Fandaniel to explain how the whole Ascian creation process worked because he didn't seem terribly pleased by the arrangement and was waiting for a chance to be able to do his own thing (Assuming he's not just bluffing and still fully intends to carry out Zodiark's will somehow).

It's stated in 5.0 that time flows differently between the different shards, including the Source itself. They explain also that the time discrepancy isn't regular either, that sometimes time flows closely to the flow of time in the Source, and sometimes timeframes don't align at all. It's how it's been years between the Scion's calling into Norvrandt by the Exarch, which we experience as weeks, days and even hours apart, as well as how the time between Minfilia's journey to stop the Flood and the beginning of Shadowbringers looks like one year to us, but a hundred to the people of Norvrandt.

So perhaps, the destruction of Ascians such as Mitron and Loghrif at the hands of Ardbert and their appearance in the 2.0 quests indicate different times. In 2.0-2.3, those two were working together to bring about the Flood of Light. There, they meet with the others and report their progress, hence the cutscenes. But then, sometime after that until late Heavensward, Ardbert's party kills them and accidentally trigger the flood. This, in turn, allows Elidibus to approach them and turn them into the Warriors of Darkness, bringing them to the Source where time, at least from their perspective, flows much faster.

As for Emmerololth... Either they did screw up their count and retconned in something they shouldn't have and it got confusing, or they noticed it and fixed it by saying "Oh we just go around and replace our numbers if they ever die". Which can potentially bring a return of a new Nabriales and a new Igeyorhm. This one I can sort of excuse it since they do have a convenient way to bring them back whenever necessary. But wasn't one of Emet's early lines in Shadowbringers to point out how he was hibernating since Solus "died" and only woke up when Lahabrea screwed up their plans and exposed them? That would imply he was fast asleep during the time those cutscenes happen, regardless of "timeframe" since we're talking about Eorzean Time. And he's an Unsundered, so he isn't replaceable. Meaning there shouldn't be any real way for him to be there unless he woke up to attend a meeting and then go back to sleep.


...frankly I wouldn't put it past someone like Emet to wake up from a decade-long nap, hear out a report, and then resume sleeping, but I don't think he says anything about having his sleep be interrupted by anything other than Lahabrea being a loudmouth.

Welp. I have a lot of thoughts about the state of the Ascians, and what will be their future now that the Unsundered are out of the picture: Lahabrea eaten by King Thordan, Elidibus inside the Crystal Tower of the First, and Emet-Selch napping in the Lifestream. Yet I believe Fandaniel showing up and stating his stance on the whole will-of-the-Convocation might entail something more complex and interesting than simply "there are yet some sundered Ascians we will have to duke it out with". Allow me to explain.

Starting from 5.0, there was a purpose in Emet-Selch’s approach to the WoL/D and the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. He sincerely wanted to try forging a constructive alliance and, if anything, that they would know the true history of the world. This is faithful to his character and his in-advance-planning. He went as far to leave the Convocation crystals behind for Hythlodaeus’ shade to give them to us, Azem’s crystal included, and when we later awaken it, Emet’s recording grants us our missing seat again, in a way that is quite similar to how it was done back in the days of the unsundered star, see Elidibus' memory of Lahabrea granting him his seat. In that moment, we, a sundered soul, rose to the vacant office once again. Of course, I doubt Fandaniel is even aware of this, because apparently no one except Emet remembered the Fourteenth seat. He reacts in glee and elation at the possibility that all the Unsundered are gone, for it would mean they are free to do as they please and not chained to their duty of eons past.

And it might well had been the case, if not because the WoL/D has returned from the First being 9/14 Ancient (which is more than the sundered Ascians are even if they were 8/14) and carrying the legacy of the Unsundered. Threescore.

(Gah, character limit. I will elaborate further in the next post.)

(Continuation of the above.)

• We carry Emet-Selch’s wish. The Angel of Truth considered us worthy of knowing the history of the world and the nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He hoped to come to a point in which bloodshed was not needed, that mankind might once reach the heights of the Ancients, and that both sides might come to understand and respect one another. We, as half-mortal-half-Ancient, are the best bridge Emet could have ever wished for, and by our deeds it has been many times shown that mankind can be brought together and achieve great feats, just like the giant Talos in Kholusia.
• We carry Elidibus’ wish. With this patch we do know that 1) he was the original Warrior of Light and inspiration of all heroes, 2) his position as Emissary truly means “reconciliation”. This could go two ways: reconciliation between the disagreeing members of the Convocation, and reconciliation between two opposing sides in a broader meaning. And then there is his belief that, once everything is over and their purpose is fulfilled, they will all meet again.
• And while he did not entrust the role to us, we are the only one left to fill Lahabrea’s role. Which, of course, was of the Speaker for the Convocation. The (Abyssal) Celebrant was who held the ceremonies for welcoming new members to the Convocation, and probably who would act as the order’s representative given that they were fourteen and they needed someone to convey their collective decisions to the people. But now Lahabrea is gone, his soul eaten by King Thordan, and the only one left to speak for the Unsundered is the WoL/D.

Now, Fandaniel thinks the sundered Ascians are free to do as they please. Apparently we are going to remind him that allowing Zenos to set the world ablaze is definitely not the will of the Convocation. But there is something else that could be interesting in this tale of which-side-are-you-on: Fandaniel is the only remaining sundered Ascian we have seen after the Unsundered were defeated, and we know that Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Emmerololth, Loghrif and Mitron are gone as well. Which leaves other four sundered Ascians besides Fandaniel that are still alive: Altima, Halmarut, Deudalaphon and Pashtarot.

Which begs the question: what will be the stance of these Ascians? It would be too easy to brand them as the same ilk as Fandaniel and assume we will have to fight them all. But the main lesson in Shadowbringers is one of bridging the differences and bring the stars together. I have little doubt that maybe one or two will support Fandaniel’s approach, but as we are now the heirs of the Convocation’s will and the closest to the Unsundered, perhaps others will rally to our side if they believe in their duty of ages past.

The thing is that if the sundered Ascians are still tempered, they're fundamentally driven to push towards Zodiark's revival even without the unsundered pulling their strings.

That said, I'm not convinced that Fandaniel isn't just bluffing to get Zenos to trust him. I reckon it's going to be a case of who backstabs the other first in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

(Continuation of the above.)
[LIST][*]We carry Emet-Selch’s wish. The Angel of Truth considered us worthy of knowing the history of the world and the nature of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. He hoped to come to a point in which bloodshed was not needed, that mankind might once reach the heights of the Ancients, and that both sides might come to understand and respect one another. We, as half-mortal-half-Ancient, are the best bridge Emet could have ever wished for, and by our deeds it has been many times shown that mankind can be brought together and achieve great feats, just like the giant Talos in Kholusia.

---

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

---

Presumable because he wanted Auamrot back more, and knew that fascist empires were the fastest way to causing the chaos needed for the rejoining. and He also expressed disdain at the sundered, considering them inferior in a way that seems like master race ideology (incidentally something that also seems prominent to Garlemald, considering their disdain for the "beastmen" and that they use their "savagery" as justification for their subjugation).

Put simply, if he wanted peace and friendship, it certainly isn't with those he considers beneath him. Else he would've done more to find a way to achieve the Ascians goals without the massive chronic loss of life the Calamities entail. Enthralled to Zodiark or otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I really have to wonder why he founded the garlean empire and run it for so long when he wanted peace and friendship after all

---

He wants peace and friendship in Amaurot. He made it clear he doesn't consider the people around now to be truly alive and as unworthy successors.

To be honest, and in Emet's defense, using the Garlean "savage" / "beastmen" argument about their prejudices is rather hypocritical because the Eorzean city-states are not much better. Even in Doma and Hingashi they coexist peacefully with the Lupin, and having seen the First where the alleged "beast tribes" are considered the same as what in the Source are called the "spoken races", blaming Garlemald alone for that is pointless.

About why would Emet build something to fall into chaos later, well. In Rak'tika he gives us an explanation: "we may sow the seeds of chaos, but it is man who tends them". I cannot say about the others, but Emet at least has been observing mankind and mingling with them to see if, as he himself says, judging men's potential for reaching Amaurot's heights. I would say the purpose is some sort of trial: building a great nation, and see what happens. If the people end up screwing up, then mission failed, Calamity time. From their point of view, with each Calamity, mankind becomes closer to what the Ancients were by virtue of the Rejoining. Aye, that entails massive loss of life, but it is not exactly they are not aware of it; at least Emet is, hence his search for "a path of lesser tragedy". To be honest, I believe Emet and probably other Ascians got to the point they had to adopt some sort of mantra / mindset for all the destruction they believed they had to cause. Something like "for those we have lost, for those we can yet save" in the WoL/D's case. In their case, convincing themselves the sundered are not entirely alive. It is a coping mechanism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

He wants peace and friendship in Amaurot. He made it clear he doesn't consider the people around now to be truly alive and as unworthy successors.

---

^This. For all Emet's cultural posturing he was simply using the Archons and the WoL/D as tools in his greater scheme to restart the 8th Rejoining, he didn't want "peace and friendship" with them at all (hence his glee about the WoL turning into a sineater - he knew if that happened it would kill two birds with one stone - not only wipe out those pesky Archons, and cause destablization in both the First and the Source enough to put the 8th Calamity back on track as well, it was win-win to him!

Through everything he didn't consider anyone other than himself "truly alive" and thus a worthy successor to the Ancients and his legacy, it was only his defeat (thanks to Ardbert's deus ex machina) that we finally convinced him when we brought him down.

But until that very moment, he was completely indifferent to everyone not an Ancient/Ascian - billions of lives lost was nothing to him, as he didn't consider them truly 'alive', and the countries he founded like Garlemald were just tools to be used and discarded, which he did. Only in his final moment, after having an Axe of Light punch a hole clean through him even as he was unleashing his dark burden at full power.... did he finally accept them as worthy of existence, which is why he allowed himself to fade away - he no longer had to shoulder his people's burden and legacy any longer, it was up to the Wol/D to "remember them".

I think that's a mistaken viewpoint. His talk of you "not truly being alive" was, to me, posturing more than anything, something that he wanted and needed to believe, even as he simultaneously wanted to be proven wrong. Remember, he had loved and had friendships with mortals in the past, was very taken with the arts, grieved badly when his first son as Solus had died, and I think it's even implied he tried to make Zenos Ancient-like so he wouldn't lose him as well (which was an unmitigated failure). At the same time, from a certain perspective, all the lives spent trying to ressurect the Ancients was worthwhile - Mortals are, of course, mortal. Every person his actions killed would ultimately only have lived for a maximum of a hundred or so years anyway. Returning people to their rejoined selves would save potentially infinite lives from natural death, to say nothing of how prone mortals are to killing each other. And even with all that, he still WANTED to be proven wrong and for mortals to prove themselves.

^^^
This, exactly. It is hard to understand the Unsundered, not to mention Emet because of his antics, because their point of view, their experiences, are extremely different to what mortals can even fathom. Only after the whole Amaurot shabang the WoL/D and the Scions begin to understand their plight, and when Elidibus comes to play, then it is they who try finding common ground with him (which sadly is impossible because of Elidibus' very nature, as a primal he has a duty and he is going to stick to it) instead of the other way around. Because lest we forget, and Y'shtola kindly reminds us just before going to Eulmore for the specters of Light's assault, it was Emet-Selch who first tried to find common ground with the Scions. I am replaying again 5.0 with another of my alts and considering in how high esteem the Scions came to beheld Emet (Y'shtola and Alphinaud openly appreciate his attempts to cooperation, Urianger mentioning that their parting in the Ocular would only be complete with the Exarch and Emet-Selch "smirking in the wings") it is easy to forget that at first, their behavior towards Emet was hostile at best. That is, until he steps up to rescue Y'shtola and then after the Ravel's revelations, which of course piqued their interest. Amaurot is a major turning point for everyone, in-game and for players in general, and even if they went there to save G'raha and stop Emet, the Scions then make the effort to reason with Emet. At that point it was pointless, Emet was still reeling from having his hopes yet again dashed by the WoL/D's failure to contain Innocence's Light, and he was in great denial. Again, a coping mechanism for what he believed he had to do. He sees Azem in us after Ardbert merges with us and his emotions get the best of him for a moment, and he forces himself to dismiss it as "a trick of the light". It goes well with Emet's love for theatre, and more specifically, probably the oldest of its forms: Ancient Greek theatre, where all the players wore masks to interpret their character. Emet hides beneath the mask of Hythlodaeus' antics, he hides beneath a mask of indolence, beneath the masks of all the lives and names he has lived, because it makes it easier for him to do what he believes needs to be done. Even the Emet-Selch title is a mask that he removes before battling us as equals, and in 5.3 it is evident he has cast away all of these masks, except the traditional white Amaurotine mask: he is no longer Emet-Selch of the Convocation of Fourteen, but simply Hades, Lord of the Underworld.

Curiously, Emet's disappointment with mankind can be described with the final verses of Dragonsong:

Quote:

---

Children of the land, answer this;
Why must you turn to empty bliss?
Tell me why break trust, why turn the past to dust
Seeking solace in the abyss?
Tell me why create a circle none can break?
Why must you let go, the life you were bestowed?
This I fear I'll never know

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Which begs the question: what will be the stance of these Ascians? It would be too easy to brand them as the same ilk as Fandaniel and assume we will have to fight them all. But the main lesson in Shadowbringers is one of bridging the differences and bring the stars together. I have little doubt that maybe one or two will support Fandaniel’s approach, but as we are now the heirs of the Convocation’s will and the closest to the Unsundered, perhaps others will rally to our side if they believe in their duty of ages past.

---

At this juncture, I assume they are being held in the wings for future story lines. Even though we are approaching the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story they could become potential wildcards as the story continues because what is an Ascian if Zodiark ceases to be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

At this juncture, I assume they are being held in the wings for future story lines. Even though we are approaching the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story they could become potential wildcards as the story continues because what is an Ascian if Zodiark ceases to be?

---

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

---

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

---

Exactly. We /are/ the eikon-slayer after all. I have been wary of Hydaelyn from even before 5.0, and after knowing that Azem refused to have anything to do with both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and that primals are indeed a blight upon the star, it will fall to us to get rid of them. Of /both/. Give back the reins of fate to mankind, just like in the Ancients' time before the Final Days, and put an end to the first war that began when Light was set against Dark and it is still going on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

---

More than this, the power boost she offers may become superfluous - if we see a return of the Convocation (via their crystals, via Azem's, or by some other means) in some shape or other, they may return to their role as guardians of the planet, even if spiritually. My suspicion is that she, as a Primal, does not truly know the full picture in the way that her heart might. Even then, given what we saw of Elidibus (albeit mostly towards the end), perhaps Venat's memory too has become addled by the imperative to "check" the darkness. Elidibus in the 5.0 epilogue refers to the fact that it is both her summoners' and her intention for memories of the ancient world to be forgotten. How will she react to recent events, which go completely against this? I am hoping this will set the stage for her removal and for the reinstatement of the Convocation as guardians over the star.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

---

Hmm I am still uncertain about it. Although it is clear, to me, that the Ascians are not tempered in a way that denies them their free will - this was readily apparent from Emet-Selch, too, - they could still go down the path that some of the sundered Overlords, like Nabriales, or indeed Fandaniel, thought that the focus of the unsundered on first and foremost restoring the world and all the souls in it to their original and proper state was detracting from reviving Zodiark. To the unsundered, he is a means to an end, even if they revere him. Those sundered shards less invested in their vision might think they're unnecessarily dragging their feet, and just want the Primal back, right away; this was apparent from how Elidibus (and Lahabrea) commented on the Ardor not being Nabriales's to usher in. The Rejoinings, after all, are primarily to reinstate the world to its pre-sundering form and based on what we know, it's not clear to me that they're required to revive Zodiark, per se. Thus the Rejoinings might well be subservient to the other aims of the unsundered - aims which the likes of Fandaniel do not share.

In any case, it's clear from 3.4 that Hydaelyn does temper, as she pretty much says this in so many words right here. When she says "as the Ascians must...", to me it's clear that she is exercising similar control; maybe not the "hard" tempering we see with the beast tribes, but a conditional form of it, perhaps through the medium of the Blessing. I believe it's erroneously assumed by many people that tempering must be slavish mind control, and that's why it's often dismissed as being present in her case.

The main purpose of tempering, as per the dialogue here - where Emet elaborates on the nature of tempering - is to spread the primal's element/energy. The Blessing functioned in just this way on the First with regard to the Warriors of Light.

I believe Fandaniel might be baiting Zenos with a false promise, because Zenos is short-sighted and single-minded, as well as of the belief that Zodiark is just a primal like any other. I doubt Zenos understands what it would mean to become his heart and I doubt it even matters to Fandaniel. Zenos is a useful wrecking ball to him.

I wonder if the reason behind Zenos having the visions is less to do with Emet giving him memories, or him being an ancient shard (as with everyone else) but instead link to him being behind whatever caused the sound that led to the crisis. Let's say there was a collaborator in the Convocation, like some assumed - that could have been Fandaniel. The others wouldn't know it. Alternatively, the memories his crystal confers could just be too weak to awaken in him a strong commitment to the cause of the unsundered in their absence. So I guess I'm torn between whether Fandaniel is acting in line with that part of tempering which would have him ensure the Primal's return - even if it's not erasure of one's will, it does compel at least that much - or whether he truly does have some agenda of his own.

Still, I am hoping some of the remaining sundered Overlords become approachable now that we've taken on the duty of preserving the memory of the ancient world and unsundered, and that they don't all fall in line with Fandaniel. Though it depends in the end on whether the urge to rush to revive the Primal will now become more dominant in the absence of the unsundered, or not. I rather tire of just dealing with the Ascians as antagonists, so I'd like to see at least one change their usual tack in the way Emet almost accomplished - there is little standing in the way of it but the writers' will to make it happen now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Exactly. We /are/ the eikon-slayer after all. I have been wary of Hydaelyn from even before 5.0, and after knowing that Azem refused to have anything to do with both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and that primals are indeed a blight upon the star, it will fall to us to get rid of them. Of /both/. Give back the reins of fate to mankind, just like in the Ancients' time before the Final Days, and put an end to the first war that began when Light was set against Dark and it is still going on.

---

Yup, I think it is the answer implied in this question. The neutral status of Azem, coupled with how she secured their cooperation, by not revealing the full picture, and the fact that Lahabrea was not really in the mood to reveal much, all aligned to aiding her in casting them off as the villains, without giving the full account of what really happened. Now it's possible that the Primal does not know this, but I am almost certain Venat, as the heart, would. Unless she, too, took her exit of Hydaelyn, I don't think she's particularly trustworthy and I suspect there may be ulterior motives, or she may have, like Elidibus, become fixated on a single imperative whilst forgetting the "why" of it. I don't think Hydaelyn or Zodiark were necessarily blights, so much as tools that have now outlived their purpose, but reading between the lines, the Primal reveal does suggest they will both end at some point. Zodiark will only be summoned to entertain Zenos and Fandaniel's games, rather than for his original purpose. So I wonder if we'll see the (memories of) the Convocation, rather than her, seek to end the abuse of a primal intended to save, and not destroy, the planet. Mayhap that will also mean there won't be a Primal about any longer in the Aetherial Sea, actively suppressing memories of the ancient world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded...

---

People seem to have jumped to this conclusion based on Her call "never ceasing" but it wasn't actually stated that way.

Maybe I'm still fixated on Her acting as all-loving and benevolent creator-goddess (even if we now know it to be artificial) I read the idea of Her call never ceasing as that She literally never stops calling to Her "beloved children".

Until we actually get a chance to question Her directly, I'm going to assume She's essentially an AI programmed to act as a benevolent goddess, and may genuinely think She is one - acting on false information perhaps, but that doesn't automatically mean She has malicious intent.

Quote:

---

Until we actually get a chance to question Her directly,

---

You questioned her directly before and she lied to you though.

I mean... what did you want Hydaelyn to say in 3.x? "I'm an AI created by these creators called the Ancients, who existed before this world was split into 14 parts. They made me to keep back this other AI the Ancients created that was killing people by using up their aether to fix the world for them. Unfortunately, I was a lot weaker than he was, so I had to split him up to deal with him, but he was the Will of the Star at the time so splitting him split the world. Some of his summoners managed to avoid the splitting and became what you know as Ascians... who are also Ancients."

We'd have laughed her out of the building for talking about stuff she couldn't prove happened before our world history properly started. Too much has been destroyed on the Source to prove Amarot ever existed. Heck, the only reason we know she wasn't lying about there being a number of other reflections of our word actually exist (because we can't really communicated with the normal ones) was because we tangled with Ardbert and Co. who corroborated that fact!

So yeah... better to use terms we're already familiar with and tell the story about her relationship with Zoidark in such a way that doesn't bring the Ancients into it. What happened with the Ancients really doesn't matter in a lot of ways; they are gone. What matters is what situation the world(s) now are in and making sure more people don't die for nothing. And one of the realities of the situation we are in is that Hydaelyn is the Will of the Star... and she's super nice about not meddling in the affairs of man. Unlike the agents of Zoidark who are always meddling and always with the aim of making the situation worse than it started.

My big thing is... everything Hydaelyn said about her relationship with Zoidark was verified by Emet-Selch as being true. She was weaker than Zodiark. They were fighting in the Lifestream. Zodiark was going to kill a lot of beings (or rather, had already needed a lot of beings to die and needed/wanted more to die). Zoidark needed to be curtailed and that was her job. And she did do it, but the Ascians are weakening her by making Zoidark stronger... And Zodiark getting out of his Moon Prison sounds like a very, very bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

You questioned her directly before and she lied to you though.

---

Was it really a lie? Remember Obiwan said that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view

Quote:

---

We'd have laughed her out of the building for talking about stuff she couldn't prove happened before our world history properly started.

---

I mean, we don't laugh at her for claiming to be a primordial goddess of goodness and light who banished the evil darkness Zodiark from her own being before creating the world and bringing all mankind into existence. Nobody asked for proof for any of that.

Quote:

---

My big thing is... everything Hydaelyn said about her relationship with Zoidark was verified by Emet-Selch as being true.

---

She claimed that before there was life, she and Zodiark dwelled as one being within the aetherial sea, and that she banished him from herself because he coveted power and broke the balance. She also describes splitting him from herself as what the sundering of the star was, and that in doing this the fabric of reality "chanced" to falter and split the world into fourteen.

This is all a pretty egregious load of lies designed to make herself look good, cast Zodiark and the Ascians as rote villains, and paint her sundering of the star as an accident. I don't know how anyone can take it any other way, with what we know now.

Quote:

---

Was it really a lie?

---

Yes. It's not a point of view issue, what she tells us was not accurate to the reality of what happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

I She claimed that before there was life, she and Zodiark dwelled as one being within the aetherial sea, and that she banished him from herself because he coveted power and broke the balance. She also describes splitting him from herself as what the sundering of the star was, and that in doing this the fabric of reality "chanced" to falter and split the world into fourteen.

This is all a pretty egregious load of lies designed to make herself look good, cast Zodiark and the Ascians as rote villains, and paint her sundering of the star as an accident. I don't know how anyone can take it any other way, with what we know now.

---

The question is, what does She know and understand of the situation?

If her "program" is that Light and Dark must be kept in 50/50 balance while Zodiark's is to act alone with 100% power, then from Her perspective, Zodiark's actions constitute breaking the necessary balance and needing to be reined in. She doesn't need and may not have a full understanding of the situation to act this way - only as much as the programmer has told Her.

It is conceivable, until we have the chance to question Her directly - now armed with the knowledge to ask the right questions - that what we are told in 3.2 is not maliciously incorrect but coming from a skewed understanding.

And quite simply, I find the prospect of a well-meaning but misled pseudo-goddess far more interesting than a secretly evil one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

You questioned her directly before and she lied to you though.

---

She lied by omission. Its the things she isn't telling us (are we tempered? that she is a primal. Why was our Ancient self not siding with her or Zodiark? Why pick us as champion instead of Venet?). Everything else she says seems to be verified by the Ascians.

I've also mentioned this in other threads, and I know speculation is pretty dry at this point for how 6.0 will play out, but one thing we can guarantee will happen is another conversation with Hydaelyn before we face Zodiark. Or she reveals her true intentions after Zodiark is dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

People seem to have jumped to this conclusion based on Her call "never ceasing" but it wasn't actually stated that way.

Maybe I'm still fixated on Her acting as all-loving and benevolent creator-goddess (even if we now know it to be artificial) I read the idea of Her call never ceasing as that She literally never stops calling to Her "beloved children".

Until we actually get a chance to question Her directly, I'm going to assume She's essentially an AI programmed to act as a benevolent goddess, and may genuinely think She is one - acting on false information perhaps, but that doesn't automatically mean She has malicious intent.

---

Whatever your thoughts on it, she is just the construct of the ancient world, much like Zodiark. Some people are still fixated on him being some power-hungry blood god, against all the evidence beginning to weigh against this line of thinking. In the end, the protagonist's ancient self decided to side with neither, and although they may not have agreed with the approach the Convocation was taking, they also did not agree with her side at that time, perhaps on the basis that one primal isn't a good solution to another. Whilst they do not agree with the approach the Ascians are taking, it is clear that they sympathise with the plight of the unsundered, e.g. by the melancholic reaction they give when you pick up the ex mode for the Seat of Sacrifice. Were it up to her they'd be cast off as little more than "minions of the dark one", to be destroyed. Convenient. She is no creator goddess - she is a tool, and tools can outlast their purpose and malfunction. If we accept this with Zodiark, so must we accept it with Hydaelyn. Furthermore, she wouldn't be the first Primal fancying herself to be a "mother" figure.

Moreover, there is some reason to speculate that it may well be on auto-record; slide 6 from these is indicative, assuming that the crystals that Zodiark and Hydaelyn "are", are themselves auracites intended to power them or something similar. Mikoto's speculation on their synthetic nature certainly lends itself to such an interpretation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I mean... what did you want Hydaelyn to say in 3.x? "I'm an AI created by these creators called the Ancients, who existed before this world was split into 14 parts. They made me to keep back this other AI the Ancients created that was killing people by using up their aether to fix the world for them. Unfortunately, I was a lot weaker than he was, so I had to split him up to deal with him, but he was the Will of the Star at the time so splitting him split the world. Some of his summoners managed to avoid the splitting and became what you know as Ascians... who are also Ancients."

We'd have laughed her out of the building for talking about stuff she couldn't prove happened before our world history properly started. Too much has been destroyed on the Source to prove Amarot ever existed. Heck, the only reason we know she wasn't lying about there being a number of other reflections of our word actually exist (because we can't really communicated with the normal ones) was because we tangled with Ardbert and Co. who corroborated that fact!

So yeah... better to use terms we're already familiar with and tell the story about her relationship with Zoidark in such a way that doesn't bring the Ancients into it. What happened with the Ancients really doesn't matter in a lot of ways; they are gone. What matters is what situation the world(s) now are in and making sure more people don't die for nothing. And one of the realities of the situation we are in is that Hydaelyn is the Will of the Star... and she's super nice about not meddling in the affairs of man. Unlike the agents of Zoidark who are always meddling and always with the aim of making the situation worse than it started.

My big thing is... everything Hydaelyn said about her relationship with Zoidark was verified by Emet-Selch as being true. She was weaker than Zodiark. They were fighting in the Lifestream. Zodiark was going to kill a lot of beings (or rather, had already needed a lot of beings to die and needed/wanted more to die). Zoidark needed to be curtailed and that was her job. And she did do it, but the Ascians are weakening her by making Zoidark stronger... And Zodiark getting out of his Moon Prison sounds like a very, very bad thing.

---

Well no, it's not really true at all. It omits a lot of significant details and is simplified to the point of being false except in the very abstract details. It's not like she did not have an opportunity to say all this beforehand, and all of this coming from her would have been no less "laughable" than it coming from Emet, who up until that point was an even more dubious source. Emet was relying on an aetheric reconstruction of Amaurot, which wasn't really doubted. It's not like Hydaelyn has ever been second-guessed by the WoL, so I find the suggestion that they would not trust her dubious, at best.

The probable answer is that she, as a primal, does not know all this and is simply functioning on the protocol implanted in her by her summoners. Venat, however? That is another story entirely.

There are plenty of elements that are questionable, like how they thought giving her the power to sunder did not risk doing the same to the entire planet/Lifestream, given that Zodiark was embedded in it. There is also the question of why they deemed it a good idea to approach it this way after Elidibus had taken his exit of the Primal to negotiate with them. For all we know, this could be why the fight spiralled out of control.

What happened with the ancients absolutely does matter, as it provides context to the actions of the unsundered Ascians, and is also something that the protagonist has now committed to honouring, with Y'shtola's encouragement after Emet-Selch's request. You can call her "nice", or whatever, but we know little of her true imperative; she only seems "nice" because up until now, the motives and history of the Ascians were unclear and Zodiark seemed to be nothing but the "dark one". To me, she is at best deluded, at worst acting at the direction of a controller who herself is intent on suppressing the history of the world, whose motives we don't fully know and are assuming to understand. She is a primal implanted into the star without the benefit of the people who created it to oversee it and that is all she is. We have yet to understand how she impacts the Aetherial Sea and if that impact is adverse or not - the fact that the 80 AST quest points to it being saturated with light, much like the First, means it probably is not without consequence.

Quote:

---

The question is, what does She know and understand of the situation?

---

She was summoned in the old world, so she should at least know there was a world and people that existed before her and that she and Zodiark weren't the same being.

Quote:

---

If her "program" is that Light and Dark must be kept in 50/50 balance while Zodiark's is to act alone with 100% power, then from Her perspective, Zodiark's actions constitute breaking the necessary balance and needing to be reined in. She doesn't need and may not have a full understanding of the situation to act this way - only as much as the programmer has told Her.

---

I have to ask, why do people give her so much benefit of the doubt as being a dumb robot that knows nothing and only acts according to extremely simplistic programming?

Even the modern Eorzean Primals, summoned haphazardly by a bunch of tribal cultures with hand-me-down rituals, are all sapient and cognizant beings. Ramuh even knew he was a Primal, actively didn't want to be summoned because he knew the ramifications, and returned to the Lifestream as soon as you prove to him that you're capable of protecting the Sylphs. I don't understand why people accept that she's so much more ignorant than other Primals summoned with quite literally a fraction of the knowledge and power that went into her creation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

She lied by omission. Its the things she isn't telling us (are we tempered? that she is a primal. Why was our Ancient self not siding with her or Zodiark? Why pick us as champion instead of Venet?). Everything else she says seems to be verified by the Ascians.

I've also mentioned this in other threads, and I know speculation is pretty dry at this point for how 6.0 will play out, but one thing we can guarantee will happen is another conversation with Hydaelyn before we face Zodiark. Or she reveals her true intentions after Zodiark is dead.

---

IMO, there's omitting details which don't really alter the story, and then there's stripping out details which completely alter the context. Although at the very abstract level, what she said was true (but only in some respects), it stripped away everything that explained the motivation of the unsundered Ascians. Although given how the story is written, the protagonist would still not side with them, it would certainly make matters easier for her by presenting them as little more than wantonly destructive minions of some dark (hence, assumed to be ebul) deity. I believe not presenting the full story is rather patronising on her part - if it was done knowingly - and betrays a lack of trust in her own champion's judgement, to an extent, so it can certainly be construed as a form of manipulation.

The really thorny issues to me are whether the sundering was intentional or accidental and whether, by keeping the present life forms ignorant of their true state, she is seeking to hide a huge mistake. Even if the protagonist would not necessarily side with the Overlords, clearly some sundered life forms do, by taking up the seats of the sundered Overlords , and they might do so when they realise the world is in a broken state and that she isn't all she is cracked up to be. Venat's namesake from XII, her insistence to be the heart and the decision to press on with the power to enervate, even as Zodiark was at the heart of the Underworld/Aetherial Sea, are all questionable elements here. I personally hope they don't just let her off the hook easily and they actually make use of these potential lore elements, including any detrimental effect having a light-aspected (stasis oriented) Primal in the heart of the Aetherial Sea might have. I am expecting/hoping for a division between the Primal, which may act benign, and its "heart"/controller, who may have more nefarious aims, or be in a similarly monomaniacal state to Elidibus, intent on "banishing" darkness and keeping all the events a secret. The latter would mean she is not malevolent, per se, but committed to a path that may no longer make sense, setting her on a route for conflict with her hitherto champion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

She was summoned in the old world, so she should at least know there was a world and people that existed before her and that she and Zodiark weren't the same being.


I have to ask, why do people give her so much benefit of the doubt as being a dumb robot that knows nothing and only acts according to extremely simplistic programming?

Even the modern Eorzean Primals, summoned haphazardly by a bunch of tribal cultures with hand-me-down rituals, are all sapient and cognizant beings. Ramuh even knew he was a Primal, actively didn't want to be summoned because he knew the ramifications, and returned to the Lifestream as soon as you prove to him that you're capable of protecting the Sylphs. I don't understand why people accept that she's so much more ignorant than other Primals summoned with quite literally a fraction of the knowledge and power that went into her creation.

---

Seconded on all your points. Just look at how sophisticated Primals like Sophia or Sephirot are - the latter of whom evidently tells you more about the truth of the world than she does, only you don't know it. In the end, she and Zodiark are of a kind, and I fail to see why the worst should be assumed of him and yet she gets off scott-free, suffering none of the consequences all the other Primals do. She's just a hunk of crystal on auto-pilot, and even if she is genuinely ignorant, she has a heart whose motives might not even be that great.

I'm giving her some benefit of doubt, because I don't think she's outright malevolent, but to pretend Zodiark is just some ebul blood good (when the bulk of the sacrifices were voluntary and necessary given the state of the world, and the final stage doesn't even lead Venat to question the benign intentions of the Convocation, implying it was parsable in terms of the ancients' moral code(s)), and she is perfection in crystal form, is just rather uncharitable at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

I mean, we don't laugh at her for claiming to be a primordial goddess of goodness and light who banished the evil darkness Zodiark from her own being before creating the world and bringing all mankind into existence. Nobody asked for proof for any of that.


She claimed that before there was life, she and Zodiark dwelled as one being within the aetherial sea, and that she banished him from herself because he coveted power and broke the balance. She also describes splitting him from herself as what the sundering of the star was, and that in doing this the fabric of reality "chanced" to falter and split the world into fourteen.

This is all a pretty egregious load of lies designed to make herself look good, cast Zodiark and the Ascians as rote villains, and paint her sundering of the star as an accident. I don't know how anyone can take it any other way, with what we know now.


Yes. It's not a point of view issue, what she tells us was not accurate to the reality of what happened.

---

from her point of view it was she just never said she was summoned or the reasoning. She basically told us they fought she split him and then sealed him on the moon and that the Ascians where doing everything they could to bring him back and she failed seven times.

"The good Light god was actually evil" is incredibly cliche and despite what some fans insist on I still don't see a reason to believe this story will fall into that pitfall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

"The good Light god was actually evil" is incredibly cliche and despite what some fans insist on I still don't see a reason to believe this story will fall into that pitfall.

---

It's not really cliche in this context since the development team have stated repeatedly that the vast majority of conflicts in the setting are not a matter of 'good vs evil' and more so a matter of different perspectives that cannot find common ground. Even if they were to go that route, it's arguable as to whether or not it's a 'pitfall' in the first place.

Oddly enough, it's also a trope that is well in line with the 'heroic fantasy' narrative that has been thrown around here a lot recently as an excuse as to why consequences for the protagonists should be minimal to non-existent. With that in mind, I would've thought more posters around these parts would be enthusiastic about the idea of Hydaelyn not being entirely trustworthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

"The good Light god was actually evil" is incredibly cliche and despite what some fans insist on I still don't see a reason to believe this story will fall into that pitfall.

---

Equally, if not more cliched, is "dark evil, light good".

Besides, it's not necessarily a case of her being 'evil', but more so that neither fits neatly in the "good/"evil" category. So whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

We have yet to understand how she impacts the Aetherial Sea and if that impact is adverse or not - the fact that the 80 AST quest points to it being saturated with light, much like the First, means it probably is not without consequence.

---

From Exarch's presentation I concluded that the Source was already flooded with light from the First and rejoining was imminent. Even though we prevented the rejoining as of yet we did nothing to restore the dark/light balance on the Source so it makes perfect sense that Aetherial sea would still be saturated with Light. This also makes Black Rose still very very dangerous.
So far nothing has come of the msq quest where we assisted the scientist while he was measuring aether levels in South Shroud (apart from poor Wilred's fate). My belief is that aether level was not actually low, but instead aether was slowed down by light which had already flooded from the First.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

"The good Light god was actually evil" is incredibly cliche and despite what some fans insist on I still don't see a reason to believe this story will fall into that pitfall.

---

Like, FFX is a comparable example of God is evil, and it belabors the point throughout the entire game, in demonstrating how Yevon has perpetuated a broken system upon the world that traps all its people in a spiral of death. FFXIV hasn't done anywhere near that groundwork, and Hydaelyn's actions have been infinitely more benevolent. Such a twist would be immensely unsatisfying in FFXIV.