Did Matoya just possess Y'shtola's body?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Well also don't forget

Zenos' body was taken over but Zenos appears to have spiritually hijacked a body of his own - which was one of the Elezen resistance fighters. I am still curious to that one since we haven't seen anything about it for a while

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Someone said he was in the trailer for 4.5? And we didn't see him in part 1, so he must be involved in part 2.

But even if I didn't know that, I'd be thinking there was a fair chance that he'd turn up then.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Someone said he was in the trailer for 4.5? And we didn't see him in part 1, so he must be involved in part 2.

But even if I didn't know that, I'd be thinking there was a fair chance that he'd turn up then.

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Yeah that's what I was figuring, I'm just saying I'm still curious about the outcome.

I'm just finding all the body snatching and sharing a bit much at this point where it's becoming silly in terms of plot

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I don't think there's any lore supporting this at all, which actually does make me a little annoyed, because I'm seeing this claim everywhere (Reddit, Tumblr, Discord), taken as gospel truth.

It's as bad as "FFXIV is the same world as FFXII".

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Master is a title. If matoya was a title, she would be called Matoya Y'stola. Calling someone Master Matoya (under the presumption of Matoya being a title) would be like calling someone Doctor Professor.

I think the idea is less that "Matoya" itself is a title and more the Y'shtola took up her mentor's name for some reason. Like to honor her.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Master is a title. If matoya was a title, she would be called Matoya Y'stola. Calling someone Master Matoya (under the presumption of Matoya being a title) would be like calling someone Doctor Professor.

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In the Japanese dub Urianger just says "Matoya". No honorifics.

Also, I was responding to the post which suggested that "Master Matoya" in full was a title.

Matoya did say she adopted Y'shtola. I think she took up her master's name, rather than inheriting a title (or the title inherited is Master). And we don't know if Master Matoya (original) was always being referred to by last name.

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Originally Posted by blackcitadel9

Matoya did say she adopted Y'shtola. I think she took up her master's name, rather than inheriting a title (or the title inherited is Master). And we don't know if Master Matoya (original) was always being referred to by last name.

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It's not her last name, unless she's taken it up recently. Y'shtola and her sister both have the same surname of "Rhul" (as listed in the lorebook).

Seeker surnames aren't family names, as the tribe-letter serves that purpose, but females use their father's forename (ie. their father would be Y'rhul Nunh) so it seems unlikely she'd take on a different surname.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's not her last name, unless she's taken it up recently. Y'shtola and her sister both have the same surname of "Rhul" (as listed in the lorebook).

Seeker surnames aren't family names, as the tribe-letter serves that purpose, but females use their father's forename (ie. their father would be Y'rhul Nunh) so it seems unlikely she'd take on a different surname.

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Well you said recently in there, that's what I mean. She may have took it up prior to that moment we see in the trailer, she's presumably not taken it up as of currently (being unconscious and all). I merely advance it as a possibility. The adopted daughter took her adopted parent's name to carry it forward. (or for some other reason) Is it really so far fetched? Also why does having a last name already stop you taking up a new one?
Master Y'shtola Rhul Matoya. I can totally imagine her as a grumpy old woman later down the line chastising someone for using her full name and title and wasting her time. (I don't believe for a second she'll actually die...the way she keeps getting powers I wouldn't be surprised if she manifested the Echo at this point -_-)

I did mean to query her being "adopted" in my last post - it didn't sound right to me, but I didn't have my lorebook to check. Now that I do...

She was sent to study with Matoya at the age of seven, and spent the next ten years as her pupil. Not adopted, although something close in terms of long-term living together as she was growing up.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I did mean to query her being "adopted" in my last post - it didn't sound right to me, but I didn't have my lorebook to check. Now that I do...

She was sent to study with Matoya at the age of seven, and spent the next ten years as her pupil. Not adopted, although something close in terms of long-term living together as she was growing up.

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When I say adopted, I refer to Matoya's words and her overall demeanour towards her, I don't mean formally adopted. It's pretty clear (to me at least) she views Y'shtola as akin to a daughter. Matoya certainly seemed pretty crushed (if only for a moment before flipping back to problem solving mode) that Y'shtola was afflicted by the "voice" - Still that could just be a mentor feeling concern for a favoured pupil, but people are complex. I don't see the concepts as easily separable if she met her when Y'shtola was 7 and spent 10 years together, neither of the two are good at expressing themselves when it's about affection but it definitely there. At the very least 10 years at a young age with a very strong personality like Matoya's is going to leave a lasting impression.

And on that note, I can easily see why Y'shtola would take up her name. At least that's my take and I look forward to seeing how completely off-base I am in Shadowbringers. (or even in the last part of this patch) XD

Late reply, but my theory, for whatever it's worth...

Rather than Matoya possessing Y'shtola's body, I suspect it's the other way around. I think the Scions' souls were sent to another dimension in the past, and while visiting there they are inhabiting other hosts. They've suggested and shown in the past that this is one of the powers of the echo. When inhabiting a host's body, you gain the skill/affinity of the host (which is why Elidibus comments that he can kill the WoL while in Zenos' body). So if Y'shtola's soul is inhabiting Matoya's body while visiting the other dimension (explains her being a black mage), we can speculate that the other scions are also inhabiting other hosts. My first thoughts are that Urianger might be Rufin, Leveva's father and a fellow Sharlayan. Thancred, on the other hand, might be Warburton, which is why he's protecting young Minfilia, and could explain also his gunbreaker skills (from his time infiltrating the Garleans but with a different twist than typical Garlean gunblades). It may either be that they've taken their own appearance while inhabiting the host body (as has appeared to have happened in some other cases before), or (perhaps more likely?) that those with the echo can see their true appearance while others in-universe still perceive them as the original hosts.

This would basically mean that at least part of the zones in Shadowbreakers would not exist in the same timeline/continuity as current Eorzea, but presumably they'll find some way to attune with the crystals in the other dimension/timeline so the WoL can teleport there at will. I suppose that might mean, in 4.56, we'll finally communicate with whoever's calling us and they'll explain what needs to be done to cross the threshold safely, and the start of 5.0 will be us teleporting there and waking up in the other plane. That may be (a version of) the scene at the beginning of the Teaser Trailer -- awakening in this other realm overrun by the light and turning into the warrior of darkness to counter it. It could be the continuation of the 3.4 story, and the attempted solution to save that plane from being overrun with light.

On that topic...

I took Elidibus to be saying that simply because he is Elidibus, a Paragon of the Source, as well as Zodiark's Emissary. The Ascians, from what we know, erase/suppress their hosts' personalities altogether and it's never been implied that they felt the need to draw on their affinities to take down their foes... especially one who has already lost to you. Granted, he mentions Zenos's adamant flesh, but we know that even lesser Paragons, like Nabriales, could significantly enhance the strength of their hosts, so I struggle to see the materiality of it. If I had to hazard a guess as to what Elidibus is getting at, it might be to do with whatever lasting effects imbuing the Resonance into Zenos had on his body. It's still unclear how that might relate to it, though, since it is the soul which bears he artificial echo, but perhaps it also makes the body more susceptible to Ascian possession in some way - perhaps, better yet, such a body has been engineered so as to insulate it from Hydaelyn being able to dislodge him from it altogether. Also, he was trying to convince Varis to act faster, more than anything else. Once he realises the original Zenos is still around, he may well just give him the body back, since Zenos wants to kill the WoL anyway, but empower him with something like a mini Blessing of Darkness, so that he stands a better chance.

I also don't buy all this for another reason - essentially your mind and soul are one and the same in the setting. So you'd expect any memories and skill affinities to attach to the soul, and not the body of the host, and this is consistent with how things like the soul crystals function. Unless they were to somehow latch onto the soul of the host - really, it'd have to be closer to suppression if the body is not vacated, to avoid scenarios like Genbu's - I don't find such a storyline particularly plausible, and in fact I'd prefer they did their utmost to avoid it. I hope that if it's what going on with Matoya/Y'shtola, it is limited to her.

For the time being, with the information given, I am going to run with the assumption that Y'shtola has, for some reason, been prevented from returning to her body, and thus Matoya has taken hold of it using means we're as yet not aware of - could be the Echo, could be something else.

On...

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Well also don't forget

Zenos' body was taken over but Zenos appears to have spiritually hijacked a body of his own - which was one of the Elezen resistance fighters. I am still curious to that one since we haven't seen anything about it for a while

That's also why I'm starting to find the whole thing silly.

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It is, a bit. As for Zenos, I'm partial to the view Elidibus will realise he's back, and eager to kill the WoL, and hand him his body back, and perhaps endow him with some manner of Blessing of Darkness to put him on an even footing with you. It makes more sense than a sudden change of heart or a throwaway fight with him, or pointlessly antagonising Elidibus and dying in the process, since for the time being, both he and Elidibus have a shared goal, plus Elidibus no doubt has his prior host, which he could move back to. The moment we first saw Elezenos, he reaffirmed his intention to hunt the WoL down. It also gives SE more room to hide who exactly Elidibus will be possessing in 5.0, if they make it sufficiently vague as to where he vanishes off to.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

Late reply, but my theory, for whatever it's worth...

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My reply probably doesn't need to be spoilered, but...

I really hope that the First Shard (or any Shard) is not populated with exact copies of individuals from the Source. The Shards split from the Source something like ten thousand years ago, and have been following their own paths ever since. What are the odds that a second Warburton or Rufin or whoever would be born after so many years of divergence?

Even if we assume that every Shard has followed exactly the same path for ten thousand years, the Ascians have been stirring things up on the Shards since prior to the Third Astral Era (we know that it was Ascian involvement that lead to the Thirteenth's Flood of Darkness). Unless they'd left the First totally untouched until very recently, even a little bit of Ascian meddling would snowball into a lot of divergence over the course of centuries.

In short, if there ARE copies of people we know on the First Shard, it will be a painful strain on suspension of disbelief!

Same. I don't mind going to other realms but I don't want to meet alternate versions of characters. The WOD party being from the cinematics I don't mind because those cinematic characters are just stand ins for the player character and using them was a fun nod, but I don't want to meet alterate Thancred/Minfilia etc. It would be incredibly lame IMO.

Exactly, and the divergence LineageRazor mentions is significant here in making such scenarios improbable in regards to other dimensions. They could be accommodated if time travel backwards were to occur on the Source, but I am very much hoping that's not where they're going with all this...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Exactly, and the divergence LineageRazor mentions is significant here in making such scenarios improbable in regards to other dimensions. They could be accommodated if time travel backwards were to occur on the Source, but I am very much hoping that's not where they're going with all this...

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I'm probably wrong (it's fun to theorize), but it seems to me that time travel in one way or another is certainly implied by the trailer, anyway, though of course like everything it's designed to confuse and mislead at this stage. Besides the obvious "if history must be rewritten" tagline part, you have Thancred protecting young Minfilia and Y'shtola being referred to as Matoya. Combined with the fact that their spirits were called but the aetherial thread just vanishes, there seem to be only a few viable choices to where they went: an alternate dimension (one of the shards?), an alternate reality on the source, or time travel in one direction or the other.

One small reason I don't think it is actually Matoya in spirit is because of her line "until our friend returns" -- if it were actually Matoya from the present (even in a different body), I find it unlikely she would refer to the WoL as "our friend" the way Y'shtola refers to the WoL. Also, in the Japanese dub, Urianger does the opposite of the English dub in just calling her "Matoya" (and not "Matoya-sama") which seems pretty irregular (unless they have a whole past history we don't know yet). In both cases, it makes me think that the name is being used in sort of quotes. It could be as some are speculating that she's taken on the "mantle" of Matoya for some reason (which would explain the black mage), but all the rest of the scions also have a conveniently timed job change that probably wouldn't happen without reason.

In any event, once we know the truth (whatever it is) it'll be neat to go back and realize the hints we missed. I'm sure they're there, somewhere...

My issue with time travel is that it is often used as an excuse to have a bunch of bad things happen only to conveniently reverse them not too long afterwards. Usually in such a way as to have the negative consequences for the antagonists remain intact whereas those affecting the protagonists are erased. I find such an approach very boring. The Warrior of Light, for obvious reasons, is going to remain mostly unscathed no matter what happens. That's completely understandable.

Yet something like time travel should not be embraced without a dire cost. Otherwise it simply comes across as cheap. I enjoyed the use of time travel in Donnie Darko the most out of the movies I've seen use it as a plot device. I'll remain vague to avoid spoilers but...hopefully if time travel is involved then it'll take a similar approach to the movie.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Same. I don't mind going to other realms but I don't want to meet alternate versions of characters. The WOD party being from the cinematics I don't mind because those cinematic characters are just stand ins for the player character and using them was a fun nod, but I don't want to meet alterate Thancred/Minfilia etc. It would be incredibly lame IMO.

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Oh trust me I don't want that at all cuz it'd be lazy

Tho honestly I don't like the idea of travelling to another shard in the first place considering ours is already on the cusp of a new calamity.Maybe in 6.0 but for now I want Shadowbringers to focus on the source's growing problems with the flood of light and Solus's machinations

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

you have Thancred protecting young Minfilia

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While her appearing in a younger form might suggest time travel, she also appears with the distinct blue eyes that she gained when she became the Word of the Mother, which strongly suggests it's the modern Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

While her appearing in a younger form might suggest time travel, she also appears with the distinct blue eyes that she gained when she became the Word of the Mother, which strongly suggests it's the modern Minfilia.

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So maybe we could speculate that Minfilia had to incarnate in a younger form because her powers are limited due to whatever is going on (which is why Thancred is protecting her)? Maybe the thinning aether on the Source was needed to do the "calling" and that is taxing Hydaelyn even further? Of course, still raises the question of where/when they are, but yeah... I guess we'll know soon enough...

I have a strong feelings that they will do some time travel to some point.

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Originally Posted by Cxplorer

I have a strong feelings that they will do some time travel to some point.

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Possibly to revive a dying game, but I can't exactly see it as it is now to do it at this point in the story since we're now talking more about how the world was segregated into different shards.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

Also, in the Japanese dub, Urianger does the opposite of the English dub in just calling her "Matoya" (and not "Matoya-sama") which seems pretty irregular (unless they have a whole past history we don't know yet).

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Is this possibly just a quirk of the English script? Having just gone through the Binding Coil on an alt, I noticed he tends to address Alisaie as "Mistress Alisaie" or "my lady", and I think that sort of thing might come up with other characters as well. I forgot to check if I could find how he addresses Y'shtola - the Warring Triad cutscenes might be a good place to start looking for that.

Anyway, does he (and other people) tend to use the same rather formal titles in Japanese? I know they handle things differently in the first place with honorifics and such, but how unusual is it that he's addressing "Matoya" without an honorific here? How would he address Y'shtola if it was her?

"What is your name young man ?"
"Xe..ha.nort"

My own speculation is a firm no. The old Matoya does not refer to the WoL as a friend. In fact she gets quite aggravated every time we come to visit her. If this was the case we would also have to know why Urianger and Tancred are running around. Who would be possessing them? I am leaning more towards "Matoya" being some form of title that Y'shtola was always destined to have and the old bag finally kicks the bucket.

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Originally Posted by Cxplorer

I have a strong feelings that they will do some time travel to some point.

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God I hope not! Alexander was bad enough and there are other ways to "undo what's been done".

My theory : Matoya is just there off screen watching them (or acting with them in the final trailer).
So imagine we have :

Urianger :
What sayest thou, Master Matoya? We may accept this fate or defy it, but we cannot deny it.

Matoya :
Are you really sure of that ? There is still time to stop everything and deny your destiny. *something like that*

Y'shtola
Deny? I am not won't to run from my troubles. Until our friends return, I will hold the line.

Most likely he was referring to Matoya in 3rd person. Maybe after a quest discussion with her prior to the events on the cutscene? Or like Matoya died so Urianger was talking in a sense like “what would Matoya do?”.

or simply matoya is a name y'shtola use in this dimension?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

or simply matoya is a name y'shtola use in this dimension?

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That was one of the conclusions some have made when it was first out, but people were not believing there was dimensional travel so they stuck with Miqote naming conventions as to why that answer was ruled out. Of course they are Mystel here so...

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Originally Posted by milovan

Most likely he was referring to Matoya in 3rd person. Maybe after a quest discussion with her prior to the events on the cutscene? Or like Matoya died so Urianger was talking in a sense like “what would Matoya do?”.

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I doubt it. He's asking her a direct question - "what sayest thou" = "what say you" = (more likely to be phrased) "what do you think about this?"

I can't see that being aimed at anyone other than the person he's directly speaking to.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

That was one of the conclusions some have made when it was first out, but people were not believing there was dimensional travel so they stuck with Miqote naming conventions as to why that answer was ruled out. Of course they are Mystel here so...

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The lorebook does mention that the Warriors of Darkness adopted other names after traveling to the Source.... so possible, but I'd rather not have all the characters taking on other names just for the sake of it. It seems odd enough that they're doing it for all the races.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I doubt it. He's asking her a direct question - "what sayest thou" = "what say you" = (more likely to be phrased) "what do you think about this?"

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While I was 50/50 on which it could be...

Koji-Fox in the commentary stream specifically referenced Urianger calling her Matoya.

There's clearly a mystery as to why still, but that does pretty much confirm that the black-robed Y'shtola that we see was called Matoya by Urianger, we just aren't sure why yet.

Didn't Yoshida mention that we'll get to decide the fate of the Scions?

After Eureka let us pick if someone dies, I suspect we'll get something similar to that quite early on for Y'shtola... Path A, Y'shtola is Y'shtola. Path B, Y'shtola becomes Matoya. Ultimately a meaningless choice (much like the one presented in Eureka), although it may have long standing consequences. A different personality going forwards, perhaps entirely different dialog with her, although that seems like a lot of extra work, more so if voice lines weigh in... Still, unlike the choice in Eureka it could at least provide some meaningful changes going forward? If such a thing happens, hopefully it's slightly more than a one off cutscene or name change... Would be nice to pick something that changes how the characters act moving forward, and give some nice justification for New Game+

did he said that? Because if so I already know who to off (you little urchin.....)

It seems strange that Matoya would wear Y'shtola like a skin suit. She seemed to genuinely care about her apprentice. It also would be odd that Y'shtola is possessed but the rest of them are their original selves. After all, Thancred is very in character.

I am leaning to her using her mentor's name. Mystal almost certainly don't use Miqote naming conventions so it is quite likely a name like Y'shtola would stick out like a sore thumb.

Who can say though. I don't see them canning the whole scion cast.

Are we certain Urianger is, well, Urianger? Like, we know that he's phsyically Urianger, but if Y'shtola's body is now possessed - somehow - by Matoya, then it's possible Urianger is not himself as well. I bring this up partly because of how Urianger is dressed. Barring his brief alliance with the Warriors of Darkness, we always see him dressed in the same hooded robe, always wearing his goggles. Likewise, Y'shtola has on at least one occasion lamented the fact that she is "becoming her (Matoya)" referencing her own lack of patience for what she sees as things that are wastes of time. This is important because it's an implicit noting of how Y'shtola is who she is and that this person is definitely NOT Matoya. For all her affection of the woman, Y'shtola doesn't want to be her, and doesn't view picking up her habits in a positive light. Yet here we have Y'shtola dressed and acting as if she were Matoya.

Bit of a showerthought aside here, but damn if that line of hers ain't some foreshadowing. Yoshi P you cheeky sonuva. This trailer really gives an ironic twist to that off-handed line Y'shtola said.

Anyway, back to my main point, I don't believe Urianger is still Urianger but my only pieces of evidence are the presence of Y'shtoya as a being now and Urianger's distinctly different style of dress. As "Matoya" Y'shtola is dressed in a manner very similar to what Matoya wears. Urianger is not dressed in his usual manner. So the question becomes, who *is* he dressed like? Is there anything to be gleaned from his getup? The necklace he wears is rather noteworthy, but I can't for the life of me think of any other times I've seen it's like, and "black flowing dress" is about as generic a descriptor as they come. It's certainly not reminiscent of anyone else major in the story that I can think of.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Are we certain Urianger is, well, Urianger?

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I’ve wondered the same (particularly because of that very out-of-character outfit!), but I think the simplest counter-argument is that if it’s not him, then he’s conveniently been possessed by someone who shares his use of archaic grammar! Which is not a guarantee that it’s him, of course, but makes it more likely.

His new costume is actually the Lv80 AST relic gear, which was shown off at Paris Fanfest. Which explains why it doesn’t really suit him (as it wasn’t designed with his character in mind) and it’s rather disappointing if it’s the only new costume he gets. Y’shtola gets her fancy new dress, and the men just get recycled costumes. (I’m pretty sure Thancred is in a dyed version of the Gunbreaker gear.)

I thought he looked good in the Orthodox robes during the WoD arc, and it seemed a lot more in-character. (Thousand-year-old Dravanian fashion... yeah, that’s about right for him!)

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Originally Posted by Quor

Are we certain Urianger is, well, Urianger?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I’ve wondered the same

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I know who I'm voting for.

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@AnonyMooseXIV Feb 4
Broke: Denying that Y'shtola is Matoya
Woke: Claiming that Urianger is Louisoix

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I know who I'm voting for.

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Damn Moose, I was thinking the same thing too. Some months ago I would have said "that's as likely as Gaius still being alive" but, well, yeah. So I'll just say that I'm looking forward to the inevitable heartfelt conversations between not-Urianger and his grandchildren.

Yes, but is Louisoix any more likely to be wearing that outfit than Urianger?