Noooo lol I didn’t say this to give him a free pass lol please quote my entire comment next time!! Because I mentioned how being an under geared tank is always a no no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
Is it wrong to run Castrum Abania as a tank at ilvl 272
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12-17-2018, 11:18 PMAomine1992
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12-17-2018, 11:19 PMDualgunnerWould that we all had healers who could carry us through being intentionally irresponsible party members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:21 PMAomine1992Lol you survived but I’m sure the healer hated you! Why do this when it was so easy to get better gear...I don’t understand your thought process of making it harder for the team because it’s convenient for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:22 PMIlanOh this ignorance. You've got carried hard by your party and that makes it fine? No, no it doesn't and it never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:22 PMMoroMurasaki"I know more than you despite having less experience in every measurable capacity."Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Dude you got carried through by competent healers. Congrats, now go gear up before you roll the dice and lose one of these times. -
12-17-2018, 11:24 PMWaterShieldYou have been shown that with minimal effort a tank can come in with double the defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Now... I know this might be hard (Math is hard). But why should a healer have to do 2 times the healing... because you are too entitled and lazy to properly gear yourself? 2 TIMES the defense with relevant gear....... it's mind boggling that you can be this obtuse. -
12-17-2018, 11:25 PMMoroMurasakiWelcome to the forums. Stick around for a bit, this sort of thing will become a lot less mind-boggling and instead just sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
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12-17-2018, 11:26 PMHyoMinParkWhere did any of us say that the dungeons were challenging? Mechanically, they are just a simple as any other dungeon. But in terms of outgoing damage, they hit much harder than the ones that come before them (Sohm Al and The Aery for The Vault/Great Gubal; Shisui for Bardam’s/Doma/Castrum Abania, but Bardam’s actually hits like a truck even for tanks in at-level gear). And they certainly hit harder than the “expert” dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I merely stated that the Vault and Gubal, when they were relevant, would truck tanks in i120/i130. Because they would. Perhaps I wasn’t as good a player back then as I am now, but that doesn’t change that there was an increase in outgoing damage from The Aery to The Vault. Just like there’s a spike from Shisui to Bardam’s Mettle, Doma Castle, and Castrum Abania.
But, pardon me. Asking for people to be respectful and wear at-level gear is clearly an elitist thing to say.
Yet, we’re the elitists here. Makes sense. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:36 PMLorganaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Sometimes you just gotta let them drive to home depot to buy the rope guys. Just let it go, one day when their party wipes like a Mexican with ecoli. Then they'll get it. -
12-17-2018, 11:40 PMMiste
Is it possible to heal an undergeared tank in Abania? Yes.
Should a healer have to put up with that suffering and carry you because of your laziness? No.
This is a MMO, a cooperative game, a team game. When you join DF with other players your gear affects their experience as well and NOT just your own.
This isn't rocket science people! How About Having Some Respect For Your Fellow Players Who End Up On Your Team And Gear Yourself.
I know this is the OF so this is a totally whack concept, but seriously, use some logic and thought about why you should at least try to gear as best as you are able to. Hint: current dungeons are not solo content. -
12-17-2018, 11:48 PMMoomba33
While leveling dungeons are certainly doable with previous expansion gear when you get to the point where leftside nq vendor gear has more defense it does come off as lazy not to upgrade.
Accessories aren't as important. I recently leveled a WAR alt through Heavensward and Augmented Ironworks accessories have one less vitality than Vault accessories. -
12-17-2018, 11:48 PMFynlarQuote:
You have been shown that with minimal effort a tank can come in with double the defense.
Now... I know this might be hard (Math is hard). But why should a healer have to do 2 times the healing... because you are too entitled and lazy to properly gear yourself? 2 TIMES the defense with relevant gear....... it's mind boggling that you can be this obtuse.
Doubled defense (which is not quite what i280~ gear has over i270 gear, for that matter) does not mean you're taking half the damage.
Just pointing that out since you're apparently the one using math as your argument.
Again, if you think someone in i270 needs constant curebombs to tank a leveling dungeon, it's clear you haven't actually tried. -
12-17-2018, 11:49 PMDualgunnerNot hard on you. But I guess you and your anecdotes are all that matter in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:51 PMFynlarI don't consider myself a stellar player. If I could still make it work, that means it isn't hard unless you or your party is just plain bad.Quote:
Not hard on you. But I guess you and your anecdotes are all that matter in the end.
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12-17-2018, 11:53 PMDualgunnerI consider you a lackadaisical player who shifts unnecessary burdens onto his party members for no good reason. You didn't make it work, your party did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-17-2018, 11:53 PMMoroMurasakiYour choice was between going and picking up some cheapie gear to be considerate to your party and specifically your healer or not doing that and being an inconsiderate teammate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
It's clear what you chose, that says enough about you that any subsiquent arguments hold no water even if you could do math.
No matter a player's skill if they've got a poor attitude they're not someome most people want to be around especially in a casual setting. Get over yourself and choose your party or accept that the community is going to disapprove. -
12-17-2018, 11:56 PMBourne_EndeavorIt's still significantly better than Shire, and easily accessible. The only reason not to have better gear is sheer laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
And no, you don't necessarily have to endlessly curebomb. You will, however, have to heal significantly more. You also will only be capable of pulling one pack at a time. Not only have you made the healer work harder, you've added a good 10-15 minutes to the dungeon. All because you're too lazy to upgrade your gear.
But you go on and brag about your leveling dungeon accomplishments... -
12-17-2018, 11:57 PMHyoMinParkExcept it did when they were relevant. It makes it far easier on healers if their tanks aren’t prancing around mass pulling in sub-par gear; means they don’t have to babysit them. This is especially true for inexperienced healers. You can’t expect to get a bunch of Ultimate Legend healers in every leveling dungeon you do 100% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
It’s disrespectful in the same way as a healer entering into a duty with an undergeared weapon: it makes healing the tank and the party a chore, and forces the party to adjust to a person who couldn’t be bothered to upgrade. Some mechanics outright one-shot those who are undergeared because they don’t have the HP to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
The same holds for a tank, except now it makes it a chore to heal them, and it can make aggro management a chore if the DPS are overgeared for the content. They may survive mechanics that otherwise one-shot, but not always. And they are certainly more squishy than a tank with ~400 or more DEF/M.DEF than them (speaking on SB DEF levels, but this also holds true for HW if you consider how stats were scaled then).
Where did I say they needed the best? You love to put words in people’s mouths, don’t you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Accessories can stay i270, but important left side pieces like weapon, body, and legs should be kept as relevant and as close to your level as possible, as they give the most significant boost. They don’t even have to be HQ level 68 white gear for Castrum, but a decent mixture of gear from Bardam’s and Doma Castle are much better than full i270. If not to make it easier for the party, then to at least save yourself some of the pummeling you’re going to be taking from mobs.
I said they should have at least relevant gear. I didn’t say they needed to have some sort of dungeon BiS.
Get over yourself, dude.
At a snail’s pace with the healer basically babysitting the tank. Idk, that doesn’t translate into “just fine” for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Expert dungeons and leveling dungeons are completely different—leveling dungeons sync you far lower and far harsher than any expert dungeon does. The two current ones don’t even have item level syncs, which make them even more faceroll. Castrum Abania in i270 and The Burn in i360 isn’t even a remotely close comparison.
The math was already done earlier in this thread what the difference is between i270 and better gear. The increases in level 70 gear are far smaller than in the gear you can get from level 60 to 69.
Just because you choose to ignore the numbers doesn’t make them less true, nor make your “feelycrafting” better. -
12-17-2018, 11:58 PMWaterShieldQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driavna
Ok since you are playing it this way, approximately 53.95% more defense upgrading from the old gear that is 7 levels outdated. Is that a small difference?
Also find it highly ironic that you are throwing numbers out of the conversation... except when it suits you to point out someone else's. Now that I have provided a completely accurate number. Discuss?
FTFY alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
"People supposedly good enough that they have ultimate clears" :thinking: -
12-17-2018, 11:59 PMIlanLook i know its hard for you to grasp, but that stuff hits hard and you let others carry your undergeared butt through there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
And as a former tank main i know exactly what i can see and what not. But that all doesn't matter because i can tell you that undergeared tanks explode in there i've seen it often enough as dps and as a healer.
Beeing undergeared in a leveling dungeon is a big issue because it puts way more stress on everyone besides the undergeared person and since this is a teamgame you should start showing respect for your party members and try to make their job as comfortable as possible which includes propper CD usage and up to date gear as a tank. If you don't do that people have all rights to call you out and they are not overblowing it just because you say they do it. -
12-18-2018, 12:20 AMFynlarExcept there was really no "burden" like you seemingly imagine there was. Again, I have enough situational awareness to tell when someone's being a burden to the party. I'm not that ignorant.Quote:
I consider you a lackadaisical player who shifts unnecessary burdens onto his party members for no good reason. You didn't make it work, your party did.
Why wouldn't I? People here seem to think they're such a huge challenge, so if I got through them fine with i270 I must be a top tier player, right?Quote:
But you go on and brag about your leveling dungeon accomplishments...
Why blow a bunch of gil on vendor gear that's barely any better when you will chuck it in at most 2 levels? You can call it laziness if you like; I call it being economical.Quote:
It's still significantly better than Shire, and easily accessible. The only reason not to have better gear is sheer laziness.
I sold all the gear that I was getting from the quests, for a pretty penny, and I still progressed through the dungeons to 70 just fine. Didn't encounter any hardship with it like people in this thread would have you believe I did. As far as I was concerned, that was my reward for bothering to fully gear myself at the end of HW, just like getting to cruise through 3.0 was my reward for going into HW with full auged ironworks.
I did these dungeons/grinds when they were relevant. I'm talking about my experience with them when they were relevant content. I didn't just finish grinding all my jobs to 70 yesterday or something.Quote:
Except it did when they were relevant.
They still weren't hard.
Yeah, if that happens in a leveling dungeon, you are definitely undergeared. That kind of thing should only be happening in raids, when people are still new/unprepared for mechanics.Quote:
Some mechanics outright one-shot those who are undergeared because they don’t have the HP to survive.
But guess what? That never happened to me in Abania at 270, not even anywhere close.
Maybe that was your experience. Wasn't mine.Quote:
At a snail’s pace with the healer basically babysitting the tank. Idk, that doesn’t translate into “just fine” for me.
I'm well aware of what happens to undergeared tanks, thanks.Quote:
Beeing undergeared in a leveling dungeon is a big issue because it puts way more stress on everyone besides the undergeared person and since this is a teamgame you should start showing respect for your party members and try to make their job as comfortable as possible which includes propper CD usage and up to date gear as a tank. If you don't do that people have all rights to call you out and they are not overblowing it just because you say they do it.
What I'm saying i270 is not "undergeared" for SB dungeons, in much the same way that i380 is not "undergeared" for current EX dungeons just because i390+ stuff exists. If it was, I would have gotten my ass beat trying to take three tank jobs through these dungeons. I didn't.
So yes, this thread is overblowing it. -
12-18-2018, 12:25 AMBourne_EndeavorBut ignorant enough to go into a dungeon woefully undergeared. And arrogant enough to insist everyone else is wrong and you won't somehow carried. Talk about an interesting hill to die on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
You spelled selfish and inconsiderate wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-18-2018, 12:26 AMWaterShieldQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
53.95% more defense = barely any better. The more you know.
380 to 390 tank gear = 13.48% extra defense..... seems like radically different numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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12-18-2018, 12:27 AMLalaRu
You OP just got back luck and RNG gave a you a PUG of bad apples. That's all.
I done all tanks with shire gear to 70 and the only thing you have to care is not pretending to make the same door-to-door pulls doable by i390+ tanks. The i390+ dps pulling hate off you are just doing that for the lulz of it so you can pretty ignore the usual "bad tank comment" they do after pulling off mobs with their all-out opening. Remember: a PUG is a beast you cannot handle. Accept it "as is". -
12-18-2018, 12:34 AMFynlarI suppose anyone who ever does anything in the game without the absolute top of the line gear is just being selfish and inconsiderate to you, then. Because that's basically what your position amounts to.Quote:
You spelled selfish and inconsiderate wrong.
If that's the case, then yep, I guess I'm selfish and inconsiderate. Boo hoo.
Personally I don't give a rat's ass as long as the content gets done cleanly and efficiently, which it generally still did, because regardless of whatever people here seem to think i270 is more than sufficient until you're 70. Not going to say that I never ran into any "Doody Finder" tier parties, which I did, but that's going to happen to everyone eventually regardless of gear. -
12-18-2018, 12:35 AMSheriyana
I've seen tanks get one shot by the tank buster of the last boss in Castrum Abania so I wouldn't recommend it, not that it can't be done but the healer will be working overtime on more than one occasion to make up for the lack of gear.
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12-18-2018, 12:37 AMIlanIt seems you are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Oh it is because there is a huge difference in stats that is not comparable to actual endgame gear, you better go back and check it because you obviously missed it.
So no this thread is not overblowing this thread is just reacting to the lack of understanding of someone certain. -
12-18-2018, 12:40 AMMoroMurasaki
This is why we need ilvl locks.
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12-18-2018, 12:42 AMFynlarSeen that happen even to fully geared level 70 tanks (yes, I know the dungeon has some item level sync on it). Seriously though, the only time I've ever died to Ketu Slash was when the healer was dead / wipe was imminent anyway.Quote:
I've seen tanks get one shot by the tank buster of the last boss in Castrum Abania so I wouldn't recommend it, not that it can't be done but the healer will be working overtime on more than one occasion to make up for the lack of gear.
What you describe is caused more by three other things (or a combination of them): 1) tank not using cooldowns for it, 2) healers tunnelvisioning and either not aware that the boss has a tankbuster-style attack (most bosses do though, so it really shouldn't be some kind of surprise by this point??) and letting the tank linger at low HP, and/or not cleansing the debuffs that Ketu Slash eventually starts causing, 3) fight dragging on for too long to the point where he powers himself up too much, which is sort of an extension of #2 and is a failing of the DPS. #1 is the problem I see by far the most when it comes to tanks dying to this (and appropriately enough it is the only one the tank has any real control over)
In short, if a tank at i270 is dying to Ketu Slash, there are almost certainly other problems at play that would still be present even if he were completely up to date gear-wise. This isn't a gear problem, otherwise I wouldn't keep seeing even fully geared tanks dying to it. -
12-18-2018, 12:42 AMDualgunnerIt's more to do with your flippant attitude, the way you talk down to everybody, and blatant strawmanning with this black and white "Either you're in terrible gear or the best gear" view on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
It's by definition not efficient because your gear is trash, Mr Rat's Ass.Quote:
Personally I don't give a rat's ass as long as the content gets done cleanly and efficiently
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12-18-2018, 12:44 AMLaphaelExactly, that boss hits like a truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheriyana
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12-18-2018, 12:47 AMHyoMinParkAaaaaand, he still continues to make a comparison between two completely incomparable scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
i270 Augmented Shire in Castrum Abania—the dungeon in question in this thread—is undergeared. It’s on-par in Bardam’s, as Shisui drops i270 gear that share the same DEF/M.DEF values with the Augmented Shire, and begins to become undergeared in Doma Castle. It is undergeared in Castrum Abania, where there is a difference of 259 DEF/M.DEF between the i270 body and the one that drops from Doma Castle. With the HQ crafted body, there is a 324 DEF/M.DEF. This also applies to the legs for all 3 pieces in question, as they share DEF/M.DEF values—so that’s a total of +518 DEF/M.DEF with the body+legs from Doma and +648 DEF/M.DEF with the HQ level 68 body+legs.
But yeah. That’s totally insignificant.
Comparing i270 in Castrum to i380 in The Burn/Saint Mocianne’s HM are not remotely comparable.
There is massive jump in DEF/M.DEF stats from i270 to i290 compared to i290 to i380 (and we aren’t even considering VIT here, which will increase a tank’s HP pool—something that’s a bit important when it comes to survival); far more than in the difference amongst the level 70 gear. From the Antiquated i290 fending body (911 DEF/M.DEF) to the i380 Scavaen body (1190 DEF/M.DEF), there is only a 279 DEF/M.DEF difference between the body/legs. 90 item levels, and it’s barely the same numerical increase as i270 to i282. Don’t get me wrong; it’s still significant. But not so much as the increase from Augmented Shire to more relevant gear closer to Castrum Abania’s level.
It’s funny that you enjoy calling other people delusional when you continue to ignore the numbers right in front of you. -
12-18-2018, 12:55 AMLiam_HarperInteresting game design. It sounds like a noob-trap tbh. Most players would be expecting fairly consistent stat increases with ilv and would see the difference between 270 and 280 as fairly minor. I admit I never knew about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Since this is the case, I fully agree that 272 is way undergeared. You just can't turn down that sort of defense as a tank.
However, I think it's poor design and players need to be made more aware of it. This is why we need ilv requirements on dungeons, so the game basically tells you "you aren't geared for this, go gear up". The quests give you the gear, so new players aren't affected. We already have HoH as no-requirement 61-70 leveling for alts anyway. Currently I imagine most players making the lv60-70 climb on alt classes will slap on Shire gear expecting maybe a 5% difference in stats that they could make up by playing reasonably well. -
12-18-2018, 12:56 AMBourne_EndeavorThat is only my position when you put words in my mouth. We have already established there is a significant difference between someone going into Savage at i380 instead of i400, and you going into leveling dungeons with upwards of 300+ less defense. The fact this continues to elude you is utterly baffling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
"I don't give a rat's ass" sums it up pretty well. Of course, it's the raiders with their dastardly pasers who are the toxic players! -
12-18-2018, 12:59 AMFynlarNobody else here is doing anything that though, with their posts of "oh, if anyone got in my Abania party with i270 gear I'd totally kick them (even though that's more than sufficient to do the dungeon with and I'm just being super entitled and will only accept the absolute fastest dungeon runs possible and tolerating anything less than that is just ENABLING crappy players)", right?Quote:
It's more to do with your flippant attitude, the way you talk down to everybody,
Except it isn't. I don't subscribe to your "if it isn't the best, it's garbage" nonsense.Quote:
It's by definition not efficient because your gear is trash, Mr Rat's Ass.
And yet despite all your numbers, I wasn't getting my ass kicked in these dungeons. Maybe it's because... *gasp* the dungeons aren't that difficult and the numbers don't actually mean as much as you think they might?Quote:
It’s funny that you enjoy calling other people delusional when you continue to ignore the numbers right in front of you.
The DEF stat really doesn't make as huge of a difference as many of you are blowing it up to be (and I'm pretty sure that this at least partially accounts for me not getting my ass kicked tanking these dungeons in i270 like people here insist I must have been). People were already figuring this out way back in 2.x when Foresight was still being picked apart as a cross class ability, and often ridiculed for failing to even make a visible difference most of the time.
Protect got picked apart in a similar fashion too. A lot of people, myself included, conceded that even though it didn't actually make that much of a difference, it's still something you had to set and use anyway or else you will inevitably get people piping up saying "y u no protect??!//" and refusing to move from the start of the dungeon because they were absolutely convinced that it had way more of an effect than it actually did and that they were going to die horrible deaths without it. -
12-18-2018, 01:01 AMIlanYou could check that for yourself. If you still have some shire gear go to the MB and compare it to the lvl 68 crafted gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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12-18-2018, 01:02 AMDualgunnerNope, nobody else has claimed that other players are just blatantly worse at the game because they decide that handling an undergeared tank isn't worth their time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I don't subscribe to your "If we cleared it then my gear was fine" nonsense.Quote:
Except it isn't. I don't subscribe to your "if it isn't the best, it's garbage" nonsense.
The word "carried," again, comes to mind.Quote:
And yet despite all your numbers, I wasn't getting my ass kicked in these dungeons. Maybe it's because... *gasp* the dungeons aren't that difficult and the numbers don't actually mean as much as you think they might?
If Foresight were a 53.9% increase to the DEF stat, things would have been different.Quote:
The DEF stat really doesn't make as huge of a difference as many of you are blowing it up to be (and I'm pretty sure that this at least partially accounts for me not getting my ass kicked tanking these dungeons in i270 like people here insist I must have been). People were already figuring this out way back in 2.x when Foresight was still being picked apart as a cross class ability, and often ridiculed for failing to even make a visible difference most of the time.
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12-18-2018, 01:05 AMBourne_Endeavor
Just for fun. I did some basic, dreadful, MATH. A DRG rocking the full Gazelleskin level 68 set will have 2680 defense. Mr. Shire tank will have 2286.
Let that sink in for a moment. -
12-18-2018, 01:06 AMCorbinDallas
One person's personal feelings and experience means way more than that of the majority who contest it with statistical facts and figures. Move along everybody, we aren't going to get through to him if we haven't already.
In my personal opinion and experience, A9S was a harder fight than A8S. Throw numbers at me all you want, but it's my experience with the content and you're all just bad. /s -
12-18-2018, 01:06 AMFynlarI'm starting to think that's your go-to response to anything you deem as less than optimal. (Hint: it kinda loses its meaning when used that way.)Quote:
The word "carried," again, comes to mind.