Summoner’s job identity

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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ARR quests clearly stated:"Smn's can summon Egis. Those are pets."
HW quests were like:"Ok you can't summon other Egi's for..."reasons" I guess...but hey, let's infuse you with bahamuth aether! Maybe this will do something cool!"


You're right in terms of "Egi's could be buffed to be more powerfull.", but often stated issues with Egis's are, that they:

-don't add anything to gameplay.
-don't offer much variety.
-don't listen to your commands.

Even if you buff Egi's, make them more reliable in responding to your commands and add more versions of them (Shiva, Ramuh etc.) you will still end up with 1 or 2 useful pets, that just autohit your enemies most of the time.

If you think having 1 Titan-Egi you never use is irritating, imagine having 12 of his sort...

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

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Lv 70-80 quests could basically change Smn's wihtout breaking with the lore. (I liked your idea with Princi teaching us "actual" summoning) However, this would mean, that the job would get a complete design change after 70 levels, which just would be chaotic.

Imagine playing Nin up to lv 70 and suddenly it has to play like Mnk.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

You're right in terms of "Egi's could be buffed to be more powerfull.", but often stated issues with Egis's are, that they:

-don't add anything to gameplay.
-don't offer much variety.
-don't listen to your commands.

Even if you buff Egi's, make them more reliable in responding to your commands and add more versions of them (Shiva, Ramuh etc.) you will still end up with 1 or 2 useful pets, that just autohit your enemies most of the time.

If you think having 1 Titan-Egi you never use is irritating, imagine having 12 of his sort...

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But that's why I suggested making Egi's work more like Demi's.

Less "Pets" and more "Summons". So you don't care about them listening to commands because you don't command them, they do their thing like Bahamut does.

They could then have more variety because without being permanent pets, they can have more impact when they're on the field. Instead of being mostly there to slap things for Ruin IV procs and occasionally use a skill like Contagion.

They could then also add to gameplay by being things you periodically bring out (Whether or not you tie them to something like Aetherflow/Trances or whatever is neither here nor there) much like a BRD rotates through their songs (Even though they have 1 song that's objectively inferior to the other 2, they still use it to bridge the gap between the CD's of the other 2)

Regarding the egis, a suggestion that I've seen made was to streamline them into 3/4 roles (ranged dps, melee dps, tank, healer), each with their own templated ability set, and make the glamours impact the appearance and fluff naming labels for the abilities.

I think with SMN adding abilities that don't build on their current playstyle, i.e. Bahamut mage, is tricky because they've sort of boxed it in this position based on the quest lore. Workarounds like rebuilding it to something else post 70 could be done, but it'd be extremely jarring.

Still, I like the Grimoire-M's idea of turning the egis into demi-egis and having their abilities integrate with the core rotation.

SMN is a fun job but at the moment it seems like there's different elemnts to it all tugging in different directions.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Still, I like the Grimoire-M's idea of turning the egis into demi-egis and having their abilities integrate with the core rotation.

SMN is a fun job but at the moment it seems like there's different elemnts to it all tugging in different directions.

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The reason I propose those changes is because to me, SMN lacks synergy. It's the same problem that MNK has with the disparate elements within its kit. They don't interact with one another meaningfully. To me, the best way to mechanically represent the SMN theme is to emphasize that "you are working with your pet". The sum is greater than its parts and all that. The Machine Gun Damage over Time effects compliment this aspect by making SMN's sustained DPS all about a ton of little numbers, with pointed tactical burst that draws on the Arcanist subtheme. The skeleton is all there, the key is make them build upon one another to add the meat that brings out that theme.

I'd be fine with alternative proposals that acknowledge this problem and try to find solutions to it. But that requires a deeper examination than simply "More Egi! More Bahamut! Pet QoL!" to work.

On that point, I also dislike the idea of Egi 'phases' that imitate a BRD's songs. But that's because I want SMN to be mechanically distinct from BRD. They tread similar ground, so we have to be careful about adding more overlap.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

The reason I propose those changes is because to me, SMN lacks synergy. It's the same problem that MNK has with the disparate elements within its kit. They don't interact with one another meaningfully. To me, the best way to mechanically represent the SMN theme is to emphasize that "you are working with your pet". The sum is greater than its parts and all that. The Machine Gun Damage over Time effects compliment this aspect by making SMN's sustained DPS all about a ton of little numbers, with pointed tactical burst that draws on the Arcanist subtheme. The skeleton is all there, the key is make them build upon one another to add the meat that brings out that theme.

I'd be fine with alternative proposals that acknowledge this problem and try to find solutions to it. But that requires a deeper examination than simply "More Egi! More Bahamut! Pet QoL!" to work.

On that point, I also dislike the idea of Egi 'phases' that imitate a BRD's songs. But that's because I want SMN to be mechanically distinct from BRD. They tread similar ground, so we have to be careful about adding more overlap.

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True, the notion of "Demi-Egi's" as temporary 'phases' can end up being similar to BRD songs, there are still ways around that which still provide more depth to the pool of summons without feeling too similar to a BRD plopping on songs.

Such as you could make the act of Summoning an Egi have significant impact. Like, if you summoned Titan-Egi and he came into play casting Mountain Buster. With further synergy such as a skill or a proc that boosts the damage of your next summon's opening attack. So you might want to Summon a particular Egi for its immediate effect and then swap to a different one that you prefer the sustained output it provided. (Potentially functioning similar to Ion Cannon Deathflare where at the end of your 'trance' (Egi summon) you summon in a new Egi for its boosted skill)

If some Egi's also gave you boosts that allowed you to in turn boost other Egi's you could combo between summons (Further fulfilling the "Sum is greater than its parts"). For example, Ramuh-Egi granting you a Thunderstorm spell or buff, which lets you debuff enemies into taking more damage from melee attacks from your Egi's (So the likes of Ifrit, Titan, Ravana, Susano and Odin) in addition to it being a direct boost to your own damage output.

So it's less like BRD's "Well... I want to keep this song on when possible and this song if it's on CD" it would be more like "Well, I could use this Primal's ability right now, but then I might want to get some extra DPS from this Primal that I can boost the damage of... Oh, but maybe I should use the skill that this other Primal gives me first!"

Honestly the OP has the right idea. I picked Summoner to use magic through my summon while my job was just to bring it forth and command it. I think just keeping the same gameplay mechanics they have but refocusing their actions with the egis and having attacks coming from them would make me love Summoner so much more and it would feel so much better with the job fantasy. I love the OP's Demi-Garuda/Ifrit/Titan idea. If the tiny egis could have moments when they take on the actual primal form albeit smaller it would finally give a sort of alternative to the fact that we can't just have them big all the time. I'd want new egi glamours so bad for Shiva/Ramuh/Levy though if they could also become the Demi forms.

Honestly though, whatever SE does even if it's a complete revamp to separate SMN/SCH I just hope they go in the direction of making the PET the main focus of your damage and not the Caster aesthetically.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Imagine playing Nin up to lv 70 and suddenly it has to play like Mnk.

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Imagine playing BRD for 50 levels and suddenly it has to play like BLM.... Oh wait, it's been done before.

Imagine having to play the new bow mage for 60 levels and then you have to play... BRD again, but with songs acting as stances... Oh wait, it's also been done before, but people are happy with this.

BLM played as this spammy turret, then suddenly and within two levels (58 and 60) changed to buff-juggly turret.

There is no better time to change how a job plays than a new expansion. (even though WAR underwent major overhauls in mid-expac patches, not once but twice). Lore can always be adjusted to allow for said change.

Back on topic though, I am very happy with how current summoner plays. I quite enjoy it a lot. However, I think getting a trait that allows benefitial pet swapping mid rotation would be very summoner-esque. Add in a few changes to incentivize having certain pets active during certain parts of the rotation (like how BRD songs function right now) and you're set.

Rotation might end up with something like: Titan during DWT, Ifrit during Ruin phases, Rudy when you are about to unload fester or just before summoning Bahamut.

You summoned 4 things!! \o/

Stormblood did a good job bringing certains jobs design back to the original intent like BRD and SMN. Summoner design is in a good place and I really hope SE builds upon what they have rather than trying to wipe the slate clean and pull another HW. The key issue with a job like Summoner is that nobody will ever agree on how it should play in FFXIV which is why we keep seeing this threads. I prefer the original FFXIV design which was built around pets.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Stormblood did a good job bringing certains jobs design back to the original intent like BRD and SMN. Summoner design is in a good place and I really hope SE builds upon what they have rather than trying to wipe the slate clean and pull another HW. The key issue with a job like Summoner is that nobody will ever agree on how it should play in FFXIV which is why we keep seeing this threads. I prefer the original FFXIV design which was built around pets.

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THANK YOU! I've been holding off on commenting to hold back the rage, but you are a shining star of common sense. Every SMN in every game is different. I bet if your complaining about it in FFXIV, when FFXVI comes out with a focus on SMN (like X) you will be complaining that the lore and mechanics "aren't SMN."

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Originally Posted by Skeith9

THANK YOU! I've been holding off on commenting to hold back the rage, but you are a shining star of common sense. Every SMN in every game is different. I bet if your complaining about it in FFXIV, when FFXVI comes out with a focus on SMN (like X) you will be complaining that the lore and mechanics "aren't SMN."

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It's not about it being different it's about SUMMONING taking a back seat on SUMMONER and for no good reason at that.

My issue is pretty exclusively with trance and aetherflow. These are our primary sources of power.... and they have nothing to do with summoning. Trance at this point is basically blue magic, we're casting deathflare, we're not summoning bahamut to do it, we are doing it. Aetherflow is entirely the summoner casting powerful spells like fester or painflare, the summon isn't even involved. Why is that? It could so easily be the pet doing these things.

Imagine if instead of having a pet hotbar the pet worked more like a MCH turret, you summoned it and it would auto attack, ifrit doing double melee attacks, garuda being ranged, titan being AoE. Their other abilities are gone (for now).

Then you would expend aetherflow stacks to make the pet perform special moves. Enkindle replacing painflare to make them do an AoE attack and bringing back spur to make them do a single target attack to replace fester. Contagion being changed (and preferably renamed) to be like devotion, a general skill that all the summons can cast. They could then bring back some of the pets utility moves like radiant shield/earthen ward/(something new for garuda probably AoE sleep) all under a shared aetherflow move like entrench.

Finally trance could be replaced with fervour, making you pet aetherflow attacks not cost stacks for the duration. Then they could make it work more like SCH where using aetherflow stacks fills a dreadwyrm gauge and you can use it to summon demi-bahamut who slowly drains the gauge and he copies you, attacking a single target when you do or using an AoE when you do and having a special attack that drains more gauge then just having him out so you could use it multiple times draining the gauge quicker or keep him out and use it at the last second.

Basically the point is, summoner could be so much more to do with summoning than it currently is without effecting much about it beyond its identity as a summoner.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But that's why I suggested making Egi's work more like Demi's.

Less "Pets" and more "Summons". So you don't care about them listening to commands because you don't command them, they do their thing like Bahamut does.

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Okay, I somehow managed to overread this in your posts. Sorry for that.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

It's not about it being different it's about SUMMONING taking a back seat on SUMMONER and for no good reason at that.

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Absolutely my opinion there. I Just dislike, that it doesn't has to do anything with Summoning, rather than beeing Ruin-mage.
The only thing that kinda makes me feel like a Summoner is Demi-Bahamut and just adding more Egi glamours wouldn't change anything about this.

You know what little detail shows how much of a Summoner we really are? Garuda and Titan summon, don't even have their own icons...

...just think about it for a moment...

Most people don't even use the egi's in their base form, they glamour ruby carbuncle over them.
They're so insignificant that you can glam them.
And how appropriate that it's a carbuncle, since that's pretty much what they amount to.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

And how appropriate that it's a carbuncle, since that's pretty much what they amount to.

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Don't disrespect Carbuncles like that. FFXI's Carbuncle was 1000x more useful than all of the summons we have in XIV combined.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Don't disrespect Carbuncles like that. FFXI's Carbuncle was 1000x more useful than all of the summons we have in XIV combined.

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Yea... no. Only thing carby had going for it was low perp cost. FFXI's SMN 75/WHM 37 was nothing more than a poor man's healer with a few trick like aerial armor, stoneskin, and fenrir. At least in FFXIV you are a DPS with the ability to buff / debuff.

Personally I would like Aetherflow and Trance abilities to change based on what you have summoned, while making summon swapping less annoying. Make the pet more meaningful outside Demimut

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Heck, the fact that Prin just straight up teaches you Demi-Bahamut suggests this. Like, literally the most powerful summon you get, just given to you for free, no manifesting it and beating it like with the Egi's just "Here's how to summon it". With the quest related to it merely undoing the seal preventing Prin from accessing the knowledge placed on him by Sari.

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To be fair, this to me screams of fan pandering. They couldn't actually figure out how to make it work with the systems they had in place, so they just gave it to you for free and ignored all the problems. Everything is conveniently swept under the rug by prin and we're left in the dark as to what is actually happening.

One thing about that, I do want to point out that Summoners identity crises is unlikely to be fixed in Stormblood without an entire rework, because the dev team hasn't decided on what Summoner is supposed to be. DoT mage? Pet mage? Bahamut mage? Ruin mage? There are so many shallow mechanics at play that don't do anything or pay homage to anything.

Like, Tri-Disaster. Does anyone here actually think Tri-Disaster accurately represents the Warring Triad outside of it puts up 3 debuffs? I'm not even willing to count Ruination anyways because it can't be spread with Bane. More like "Duo-Disaster and Mild Annoyance." Does any part of this spell work at any of the themes we've seen from Sophia, Sephirot, and Zurvan? Where's the balance, growth, or eternity?

I feel like this is being compounded by Blue Mage actually getting primal spells that the egi's can't even use, despite them being miniature primals. Ifrit-egi uses Infernal Nails in the Austerity of Fire trial. Garuda-egi even summons Chirada and Suparna way before you ever get to see them in the level 45 quest. Where are these mechanics and traits for the Summoner job or the Egi's after you acquire them?

I like summoner. It could change a little, but I hope the core identity remains the same. I agree with most in this thread that feel the flavor isn't being properly capitalized on, though. However, mechanically I feel summoner is a very rewarding job to learn and play.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

I like summoner. It could change a little, but I hope the core identity remains the same. I agree with most in this thread that feel the flavor isn't being properly capitalized on, though. However, mechanically I feel summoner is a very rewarding job to learn and play.

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I like the core loop, stacking little bursts until you've got your big burst.

If the little bursts were more summon flavoured instead of trance based I don't think SMN would have any identity issues tbh.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

That's not entirely true. SE managed to remove Leeches and that was a core SCH ability for quests in ARR. They certainly can edit the questline around, they just want to minimize that work wherever possible.

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That’s a kind of different scenario though. With leeches it wasn’t a large part of the story, it was just the spell they pulled out of a hat for you to cast on an NPC at some point. It was a simple matter of going into the quest and changing any mention of the word leeches to the word physick (or whatever they changed it to) and changing the spell you cast from leeches to physick. Nothing actually changes storywise, just the spell you cast that one time in the quest.

Same with PLD, they decided they wanted shield oath to be level 30 instead of 40 so all tanks got tank stance at the same time. They literally had to change nothing because it wasn’t relevant to the story at all, it was just the reward you got at the end. So they just had to swap the levels learned.

With SMN it’s far more complicated. As an example, what if they wanted to change it so you learn garuda at level 30 and ifrit at 45? They can’t just change the levels you learn them because you fight ifrit in the story, going and learning the spell ifrit is what sets you on the path to becoming a SMN and most importantly, you haven’t fought garuda at level 30 in the main story so it doesn’t work with the lore of learning summons by being drenched in their aether.

So you’d go and fight ifrit in the main story, fight ifrit in the quest and learn... garuda egi?? It doesn’t make sense and SMN is the only job this applies to because it’s the only job where the spells you learn are directly tied to the story and the quests/battles involved.

Same with trance, you go and learn it because you can’t learn any more egi. So you go to cartenau to be around Bahamut aether to learn trance. So if they wanted to change trance to say, summon Demi-primal, it would no longer make sense for you to go to cartenau and be around Bahamut aether, so that entire quest would need to be redone.

While you’re right that it’s a matter of effort, I wouldn’t say minimal effort. It would be a significant undertaking to change summoner, it is practically on the level of requiring a reboot of the job if they wanted to change anything retroactively instead of just untangling it going forward.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

With SMN it’s far more complicated. As an example, what if they wanted to change it so you learn garuda at level 30 and ifrit at 45? They can’t just change the levels you learn them because you fight ifrit in the story, going and learning the spell ifrit is what sets you on the path to becoming a SMN and most importantly, you haven’t fought garuda at level 30 in the main story so it doesn’t work with the lore of learning summons by being drenched in their aether.

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Which only means that they can't change the order/levels that you get the primal summons. It has no effect on the rest of their kit, nor even on the summons themselves.

I mean, changing Egi's to Demi's would be as simple as going to these quests and replacing the mention of Egi with Demi and then replacing the Egi model shown in cutscenes (Also, during the 3 fights against the primal essences) with a Demi model.

It doesn't exactly need them to swap around the levels you get the summons, or the way you go and learn these summons and thus the main structure of the quests. It's as simple as the examples you gave previously.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Same with trance, you go and learn it because you can’t learn any more egi. So you go to cartenau to be around Bahamut aether to learn trance. So if they wanted to change trance to say, summon Demi-primal, it would no longer make sense for you to go to cartenau and be around Bahamut aether, so that entire quest would need to be redone.

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Technically, it's not that we "Can't learn any more Egi" but that we couldn't at that point, learn Ramuh.

Also, they can change that quest in a subtle way to make it not dependent on learning Trance. Since, the reason we couldn't learn Ramuh-Egi was that we couldn't hold enough aether to summon a manifestation of it. Going and fusing with Bahamut aether could be a way to expand the aether we have available for summoning manifestations of primals, thus allowing us to get a new summon from that quest if they wished to do so (As well as giving an explanation as to why after that point we can then go learn to summon more things after previously being unable to)

Okay, the devs have already stated that gameplay always comes first then they write the lore to fill the gaps. Meaning they can do whatever they want without being bound by story.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Okay, the devs have already stated that gameplay always comes first then they write the lore to fill the gaps. Meaning they can do whatever they want without being bound by story.

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if they change everything wouldn't they have to rework the lore

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

if they change everything wouldn't they have to rework the lore

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Aren't we talking about the same people that nuked the entire continent with a moon coming down to "rework" the whole game? Why are you so surprised? :p

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Same with trance, you go and learn it because you can’t learn any more egi. So you go to cartenau to be around Bahamut aether to learn trance. So if they wanted to change trance to say, summon Demi-primal, it would no longer make sense for you to go to cartenau and be around Bahamut aether, so that entire quest would need to be redone.

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You could still keep the core of the quest, just have to alter the reason for going.

"Y'mhitra thinks we can get around the aetheric limitations by using an ancient allagan technique known as demi-summoning, channeling environmental aether in to your current egi."

"Following the Calamity the Carteneau Flats became soaked in all sorts of elementally aspected aether, the area is also a suitably remote testing ground for our potentially dangerous experimentation."

"Your meditations are interrupted Ascians, who vow to deny you the advantage of even greater Summoning!"

"Despite the relentless onslaught, you are able to complete the ritual and summon a Demi-Primal. Wary of your newfound strength, your foe chooses to withdraw rather than risk defeat."

Essentially it would need text changes and a cutscene altering, which is still more work than altering many other jobs to be fair.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Aren't we talking about the same people that nuked the entire continent with a moon coming down to "rework" the whole game? Why are you so surprised? :p

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The team don't seem particularly fond of retcons, which is ultimately what a pre-70 to 80 replacement of trance, or egis in general, would involve. It's ok to talk about dropping meteors and rebooting the game, but 2.0 onwards is a continuation, not a retroactive change to what came before.

What summoner i don't see a summoner just a geomancer with arcane magic summoning elemental crystals 2 help its dps

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

:p

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can I hug you pretty please?? :D

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

derp Queen

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it ain't geomancy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The team don't seem particularly fond of retcons, which is ultimately what a pre-70 to 80 replacement of trance, or egis in general, would involve. It's ok to talk about dropping meteors and rebooting the game, but 2.0 onwards is a continuation, not a retroactive change to what came before.

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All I'm saying, keep an open miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind maaaaaaaaaaaan.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

What summoner i don't see a summoner just a geomancer with arcane magic summoning elemental crystals 2 help its dps

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Does that mean we deserve b00fs? YASS!

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

can I hug you pretty please?? :D

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Do you always hug strangers? :o

Mom said I shouldn't talk to strangers!

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Yea... no. Only thing carby had going for it was low perp cost. FFXI's SMN 75/WHM 37 was nothing more than a poor man's healer with a few trick like aerial armor, stoneskin, and fenrir. At least in FFXIV you are a DPS with the ability to buff / debuff.

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You didn't solo bombs in Ifrit's Cauldron and Aglooliks Uleguerand Range. Carbuncle was immensely useful for that. I had 1....1! party in the period when I was soloing bombs. That was a beastmaster party with my fenrir's eclipse bite providing extra oomph. After that, more bombs. Also, your puny character and your puny carbuncle doing the Trial-Size avatar fights was a special bonding experience because your carbuncle was your lifeline. At 75, my summoner was killing grand wyrms in canyons, crypts, and snowy mountains. I really, really loved ffxi summoner.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Do you always hug strangers? :o

Mom said I shouldn't talk to strangers!

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yes but I always ask first :P

My vote is honestly removing the egi's entirely and focusing on trances and summoning of Demi-Primals. I think that would be amazing gameplay wise but ofc I realize that would take ALOT of work. What if the next Demi Primal is a single target nuke?

Summoner would really benefit from having it's skills tied more directly to the summoned egi but the only problem that occurs to me is that the gameplay would change dramatically without a summon present. I think it would be neat if skills like Fester and Painflare had upgraded versions when your summon was present that they cast thensleves and remained as they are now if your summon died. Your toolkit would be cut in half in the event of a egi death otherwise although it does make sense for your summon to be critical to your gameplay. I just don't think square wants to make the job anymore punishing than it already is. Having traits for a Summoner and a scholar that made the abilities linked visually to your pets just makes sense tho.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Aren't we talking about the same people that nuked the entire continent with a moon coming down to "rework" the whole game? Why are you so surprised? :p

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its like the shadowbringer trailer just shout at us: its worse than the 7th catastrophe! nothing left we can fight for etc. so not gonna be surprised if shadowbringer really brings the feeling of a new gamedesign in skill-toolkits and resources like MP & TP etc - like Dalamunds fall brought massiv changes to FFXI core concepts.