An Angry Letter About Eureka Pagos

They will need to make a way for us to gather light or something outside of Eureka because once people move on to other zones, it's going to be a bitch getting 31 frosty bois for newer players.

They need to adjust Pagos completely because at this point Anemos was passable, but Pagos is a complete fail.

Pagos is giving me flashbacks to completing the 210 Anima weapon step. Anyone else remember that? If not here's the deal, you had to, at the time, collect 20 unidentifiable items of each of 4 types as well as acquire 5 HQ crafted items of 4 different types. For the casual player this would mean you could get one item per week from beast tribes, or grind it out with Gordias norma (I can't recall exactly, but I think 10 clears of a floor got you 1 item) as well as you had to either have someone make the crafted items for you or pay, on my server, between 20-30 million gil for them on the market board.

The amount of time and grinding for this step caused a lot of backlash, and Square justified the step as being as difficult to complete as Gordias. But then not too long after they made the step much easier to complete for players wanting to catch up. As someone who has completed O8s, I have to say that this step of the relic is far worse than doing savage, both from the point of view of player sanity while trying to grind all this out, and for the health of the game since it takes people out of other content and gates them away.

Additionally the entire Eureka system is a massive fail since it actively prevents players from catching up as you can't work on previous steps in new zones, and can't even enter the most relevant zones unless you've completed the previous ones, and catching up on previous ones becomes much harder when the bulk of players working on this content aren't there to play with. I applaud them for trying something different, but I have to say, this method gets a solid F grade from me as it fails to provide the benefit to the game that previous relics did, and fails to provide the person working on it with any form of variety on how they want to complete the steps, and ends up being tedious, grinding, and boring for those who are doing it.

I've yet to find a single redeeming trait to Eureka, and expect that the content would have fallen flat on its face, just like Diadem before it, had the relic weapon not been put into it. It's almost like Square knows people hate it, but they're forcing players into it by placing the weapon there.

I'm amused at the folks comparing older relics favorably to the Eureka relic. With the exception of the first stage of the original ARR relic, all steps of each relic have been ludicrously painful grinds. I seriously think folks are seeing those old stages through the lenses of nostalgia. Pagos seems no worse to me than grinding FATEs for Atmas, or praying for item drops from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Relics ARE casual content. Relics are meant to be an easy, yet time-consuming alternative to Savage weapons. Try again.

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No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.

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I am a "casual"- I don’t raid, only really run EXs when I like the boss’s music for the mount. The bulk of my playtime has been goofing around with my fc at our house, glamour farming dungeons, and helping friends level alts. In HW I was working on 2 relics when each step was relevant and worked through a second pair when the first two were done. Tomestone weapons work decent enough for a person's main but are impractical even for us casuals due to the weekly timed tome limit.

Previous relics grinds were, imo, as painful as I made them. Eureka has been miserable enough to make me sit out this weapon.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I'm amused at the folks comparing older relics favorably to the Eureka relic. With the exception of the first stage of the original ARR relic, all steps of each relic have been ludicrously painful grinds. I seriously think folks are seeing those old stages through the lenses of nostalgia. Pagos seems no worse to me than grinding FATEs for Atmas, or praying for item drops from dungeons.

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They were so much better, solely because you could do them at your own pace, you didn't need a group of other people doing the exact same step as you. Even if it was a grind there was no pressure of "I have to do this now while everyone else is or I'll have nobody to grind with" which is why most of us are bothering to touch Pagos at all.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.

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I'm super casual and I got my 2.0 and 3.0 relics. I don't think you know what it means to be a casual player.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I'm super casual and I got my 2.0 and 3.0 relics. I don't think you know what it means to be a casual player.

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I'm super casual, too. I got my relics in 2.0 and 2 of them in 3.0. I'll not have one in 4.0 because I hate Pagos. I'd rather just not earn a relic, no matter how much I want one, because I dislike the content. I'd grind away if I had fun in the area, but I don't so... yeah, not worth the effort, especially since there will be only 3 upgrade steps before 5.0 in June.

I'm seriously debating just skipping out this relic entirely and just relying on Savage weapons.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I'm seriously debating just skipping out this relic entirely and just relying on Savage weapons.

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Sadly, that's the option left to a large majority of us. Either that or the Dev need to develop a separate route for us to get our relics.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

SOURCE: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._and_soken_at/

I don't think they care :/

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They really don't. Players back in the day also had to watch cut scenes which couldn't be skipped and sometimes they were before tough bosses and if you died guess what you had to watch again. Imagine if they decided to do put cut scenes in dungeons again like they did in Praetorium and you couldn't skip them and then told the current player base, "Your predecessors had to watch these cutscenes so we won't ease up on that. Please learn how to do that."

The mount was what got me the most. To make things easier to relate to, imagine if you start a new game and just step out into Middle la Noscea get to lvl 10 and now you can use your mount but then you decide to go to Western La Noscea an realize that you can't mount until you reach lvl 18. Seriously why was this even considered for even a second. Its artificial difficulty in an already very artificially evolving game. I mean when an emote can cost more than gearing your character with crafted gear and max melds to tackle current content then you clearly messed up in my opinion.

The worst part is that I have to do this for the relic and Anemos is already dying down and I imagine leveling in Pagos is going to be abysmal given how much effort it takes to spawn fates. Also, don't lie to us, these aren't NM's they're fates.

Gonna leave this here for SE to reflect on what they've done and hope they learned their lesson... again.

http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/ima...753/3steps.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...rvkirtnggr.jpg

Best thing with all this discussion about casuals and non casuals is that nobody can decide what it means. as far as I'm concerned casuals raid, do relics, and everything else. casual just means you don't treat the game like some 2nd job. and that's the best way to play. the only way to have the most fun even.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.

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Relics are the casual player alternative to Savage weapons. They may take time to progress steps, but they can be done both by grinding it all at once or spacing it out, which appeals to the more casual mindset. The upgraded Tomestone for 370 requires Ridorana and outside of something like Void Ark, the 24 mans are not where you find the more casual players. Especially not a 24 man with the difficulty level of the Ivalice raids.

Ok what i see as casual or not is: If you are spending time at contents like "ex dungeons, roulettes, gold saucer, random pvp, mentor roulettes (yes mentors can be casual too, not that i wanna bring mentor subject here but a mentor doesn't mean hardcore), RELICS (YES ALL OF THEM INCLUDING EUREKA).

Semi hard-core content for me are extreme primals. They require you to know your job to a point, know the mechanics and memorize them, have a certain teamwork stuff like tank swaps, healing with your co-healer optimally, adjusting yourself for mechanics or doing some mechanics as a team etc.

Hardcore content for me, and well for most people i assume are savage and ultimates. They need you to do your dps rotations almost perfectly, you need to do mechanics almost perfectly, you need to have a decent opener that alligns with other party buffs and stuff, you need to bring food, you need to have a decent gear, you need to dps while healing (that's not optional here like casual healers say it!), you need to work as a team while doing mechanics as well. Overall you need to KNOW this game and your job.

Eureka = you can just spam stuff, watch netflix whatever. Other relics, you can do daily content. That's not hardcore. Try watching netflix while clearing savage. Those people put real effort to down those fights. While you are only putting time as an effort.

Casual is how much time per week you spend with the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Has no bearing on skill, though most casuals kinda suck 'cause they don't care enough to spend time looking up guides.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The upgraded Tomestone for 370 requires Ridorana and outside of something like Void Ark, the 24 mans are not where you find the more casual players. Especially not a 24 man with the difficulty level of the Ivalice raids.

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What.

Apparently, despite being on the same data center, we're in entirely different dimensions wherein one of us cries themselves to sleep at night thinking about all the wipes they had in Weeping City, Dun Scaith and Rabanastre (and LotA, and WoD...) because it's filled to the brim with casual players what don't give a hoot, and the other is hoarding all the instances where there ain't nothin' but flawless clears with more than two DPS caring enough to do more than auto-attack levels of DPS. If they can manage to stay alive more than 2 minutes.

Share with me you heathen!!


No really, this is a monumentally absurd claim. The alliance raids are possibly the most casual-friendly instanced content because personal responsibility is nearly nonexistent and there aren't hard enrages so zombie strats are perfectly valid. Provided a DPS check isn't looming, but even then 1~3 DPS can handle them. It's the entire reason alliance raids exist: As a catch-up device for casuals that don't cap Tomestones and returners that need gear.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Casual is how much time per week you spend with the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Has no bearing on skill, though most casuals kinda suck 'cause they don't care enough to spend time looking up guides.

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Well some people use casual to mean the amount of playtime, and that's mostly meaningless. If casual can mean someone who only does guildhests or someone who clears ultimate then it doesn't usefully describe any subset of players.

Most people use casual/midcore/hardcore to describe the level of difficulty a player is comfortable with. Casual players do the story and probably dungeons, midcore players do EX and probably savage, hardcore players clear everything and probably complain it was too easy.

You know what I do when I don't like something ? I just don't do it. I don't make topics about it, I don't post on reddit about it, I just quietly don't do it. It's also known as voting with your wallet, (the only thing they understand).

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Most people use casual/midcore/hardcore to describe the level of difficulty a player is comfortable with. Casual players do the story and probably dungeons, midcore players do EX and probably savage, hardcore players clear everything and probably complain it was too easy.

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Well, but take me for example. I've logged maybe, I don't know, 30 hours in the game since March. I log in for ~2 hours on Friday night, otherwise I'm not on. At all. I haven't earned a single Tomestone since coming back about five weeks ago. I haven't done the 4.3 story. By anyone's definition, I should qualify as casual. And yet there is no content in this game that I'm not comfortable with - being opposed to wasting time in is another metric - so the definition falls a bit flat.

So working with that, weighing content by how much time it takes is a better fit.

Dungeons? Even if you barely know how to play it won't take more than 40~45 minutes to clear. So that's obviously casual. You can pick those up, play a little, and go about your day without a care in the world. As many do.

EX Primals? Especially without a guide, it's typically going to take you a couple hours to clear. Maybe a lockout, maybe two or more depending on overall skill for the group. Definitely varies encounter to encounter; not necessarily outside of the casual bracket, but also close to that fabled midcore thing people want more of.

Savage? First two floors are usually around EX Primal difficulty these days, and maybe take about as long to clear as the harder ones. But they have the added time investment of either recruiting via PF to hop in, or recruiting for/trying out with a static. That's most definitely beyond the scope of a casual commitment, even without factoring in how often the group would want to get together. Many people work odd hours and can't really commit to that sort of thing, so solidly in the midcore range.

Savage's third and fourth floors are where tons of people get caught up. Where midcore statics break, find replacements, and break again. The fights themselves take longer to learn and have far more wipes, more than some midcore players can or want to commitment to. But not all. So it's another transitional period, albeit one maybe on the far edge.

And then Ultimate. We won't even call it hardcore. By design, only masochists need apply. :p


On this scale, due to the time commitment associated with Relics - old and new - those would likely fall into that midcore range prior to nerfs. Tomestones would be the casual alternative, as is their design and reason for existing, and the Savage weapons are for the hardcore. Nice and tidy.

This also aligns with my experience with a super casual FC I spent 2 years in. Outside of their little midcore static, maybe 10 people (of 250+) finished the Anima last expansion. Not many more even started one. Fewer still have finished Zodiac Relics from what I had saw, even post-nerf, though in fairness I didn't see every member's avatar.

Note that you can arrive at the same result using both methods/reasonings, too. So perhaps it's splitting hairs just a bit.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You know what I do when I don't like something ? I just don't do it. I don't make topics about it, I don't post on reddit about it, I just quietly don't do it. It's also known as voting with your wallet, (the only thing they understand).

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Voting with your wallet would be unsubscribing.

You unsubscribe after you leave feedback and they fail to acknowledge shortcomings, typically.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You know what I do when I don't like something ? I just don't do it. I don't make topics about it, I don't post on reddit about it, I just quietly don't do it. It's also known as voting with your wallet, (the only thing they understand).

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You are entitled to not do content you don't like. I may have mistaken but your logic says something like "if content isn't being played, they will understand it is bad". And if i am not mistaken, you are trying to say "don't b*tch about it, just don't do it if you don't like it".

I will put aside the content getting old and being dead since coils, alex savage, diadem are at this point old content and less than %1 players do those in a regular basis right now. Which i believe eureka will be a dead content after some point as well. Unless they keep upgrading it in 5.0.

Anyway putting that aside, you should know that you not playing won't affect a thing. Developers won't realise it, nor care about it. There are probably hundreds of people not doing eureka for several reasons. Do developers care? No. Why should they though? Isn't it more logical that they care about people who DO eureka?

And how do we improve something we don't like? Well, it is simple: by giving feedback. They are the developers so it is up to them to review the feedback or not but if we don't give feedback, they would think " oh eureka is fine as it is". Because like i said there will always be people doing it.

Giving positivite critism is always good in my opinion and we can get this game in a better state if we continue giving feedback. There is nothing wrong about being verbal about it.

Again, i may be mistaken about your post but saying you don't make topics about it and replying here that you don't post about it seemed inconsistent to me.

I stopped going in there.

They are basing numbers off of people going into Eureka and how many people are getting to 35 and how many people are completing the relic.

IMO Eureka is worse than Diadem, at least in terms of Diadem it didnt contain the relic weapon and there wasnt content within the content that separated players like Pagos did.

I dont know what nerfs they can make to the content to make it playable but I probably wont go back into Eureka until a few months before the next expansion, hopefully by then it is nerfed into the ground.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You know what I do when I don't like something ? I just don't do it. I don't make topics about it, I don't post on reddit about it, I just quietly don't do it. It's also known as voting with your wallet, (the only thing they understand).

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You posted here, hypocrite.

I'm not angry but I am completely disgusted by Pagos. I've played a lot of games over the years and Pagos is the worst gaming experience I have ever encountered.

Bouncing between 2 dragons for over an hour is no accomplishment. It requires no skill. It's not even a challenge except to stay awake. What kind of pathetic person thinks that is an accomplishment? It's not even a game, it's pure drudgery. Try the original Pong - a very similar game with similar skills, more fun though.

But to add insult to injury, the final Pagos weapon is pure garbage. I tested it through some solo dungeon runs and it made no difference whatsoever.

Essentially, I paid money to bore myself to death just to get a piece of garbage. That has tainted every aspect of the game for me now. I log in and just feel disgusted with the place. Can't even find the motivation to get that level 69 dark up to 70 for his final chapter of the story.

So this is me voting with my money. I will go from here to suspending my account, deleting the game and anything related to it. I'll never spend another dime or minute on Yoshi P or Square Enix. Pagos convinced me I have better things to do with my time.

Respond if you want to, don't care, won't ever see it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.

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Or you have no idea what the actual term means. Casual players can simply be people who don't spend a lot of time playing but still obtain everything. If it took you three months to finish the Unidentifiable Ore step from Heavensward, well, that's a very casual pace. In fact, it basically required you to cap Lore each week and do your dailies; a task which takes no more than a couple hours per week. Are you going to call maybe six hours of playtime a week midcore? I think it's you who doesn't know what those terms mean.

Casual content typically refers to anything that can be done fairly easily. While the relic may be a daunting grind, it requires very little play input except to play casual content, i.e., dungeons. At least, it did in the past. Eureka shifted this into a more serious grind hence the extreme backlash.

Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
No casual player would even THINK about trying to put in the time required to create a relic. Try again.

Relics ARE NOT CASUAL CONTENT. If you think they are, you have no idea what it means to be a casual player.

The "casual" option is the upgraded Tomestone weapon - and some casuals will struggle to achieve even that.


I have casual players in my FC. Some of the play very little and sub 1 month at a time. They work on relics when they have the time, even if the steps are confusing or grind heavy.

Yes, relics are casual. Pagos is less casual than previous steps, but its still casual. You can jump in and out easily with little commitment. I'm sorry you feel this way, but you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

Apparently, despite being on the same data center, we're in entirely different dimensions wherein one of us cries themselves to sleep at night thinking about all the wipes they had in Weeping City, Dun Scaith and Rabanastre (and LotA, and WoD...) because it's filled to the brim with casual players what don't give a hoot, and the other is hoarding all the instances where there ain't nothin' but flawless clears with more than two DPS caring enough to do more than auto-attack levels of DPS. If they can manage to stay alive more than 2 minutes.

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Where did I ever say I have flawless runs? Far from it. But you aren't going to see those of a truly casual mindset throwing themselves fruitlessly against that content. They become more casual accessible as we outgear them, but 24 mans are firmly in midcore or higher when they're current. Midcore players are willing to stubbornly throw themselves against the content until they beat it. Casual isn't bad. It's just a different outlook.

Thing is there's no way I'm putting up with something that boring, when all it gains me is a few stat points no one cares about, which I can compensate for with skill level as well.

I don't play as much as I used to. I would closer define that as casual. For people to spend days on repeating the same task over and over again for minor upgrades is what I would call hardcore. If those same players can't manage to complete content without those minor upgrades, then they're simply unskilled, where as I am skilled enough to complete the content without it.

There's always a price to pay for everything, and Eureka is a price I'm not willing to pay. If I were to put that on my list of achievements, I would feel more embarrassed for it than proud. Embarrassed that I accepted such force fed garbage as if it was something that I desired.

So, Im offering my perspective. Went in at level 20 right after anemos, did my challenge log and joined random parties and did a bit of everything very casual like once a day or twice a week sometimes more. Havent had any issues, farmed nms and chained mobs. Havent had any unpleasant experiences so far. Ive been rezzed, ive rezzed ppl. Plenty of drg light farming but nobody cursing anyone at least in any of the instances Ive been in. Been in 5 times this week. Made it to level 32 with about 6 bars of light. Will probably get my mount by the end of the week. Then light farming some more till i get my relic. Already at 400 pagos crystals too. Im personally having fun here even if the content is difficult. I have no issues with them taking the mount away. Only that they could have put it on 33 maybe but Im not upset about it :P Havent really run into anybody who is. Still seeing many full instances on Primal.

um... it is casual content tho :/

its something to invest time on at your own pace. Never a necessity. Hate to say it. By definition its been said the relic is "Time for Power" quoted by Yoshi P and the devs themselves. Youre never required to do it just as you arent required to get the tome weapon from the 24 man drops

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Where did I ever say I have flawless runs? Far from it. But you aren't going to see those of a truly casual mindset throwing themselves fruitlessly against that content. They become more casual accessible as we outgear them, but 24 mans are firmly in midcore or higher when they're current. Midcore players are willing to stubbornly throw themselves against the content until they beat it. Casual isn't bad. It's just a different outlook.

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Just... gonna directly point out that what you chose to quote was more than a bit tongue-in-cheek.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

No really, this is a monumentally absurd claim. The alliance raids are possibly the most casual-friendly instanced content because personal responsibility is nearly nonexistent and there aren't hard enrages so zombie strats are perfectly valid. Provided a DPS check isn't looming, but even then 1~3 DPS can handle them. It's the entire reason alliance raids exist: As a catch-up device for casuals that don't cap Tomestones and returners that need gear.

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Your use of "truly" as a qualifier doesn't fill me with confidence, but yeah. The casual FC I was in always did - and still does - the alliance raids, as groups of varying sizes or just individually. The same folks that largely didn't start, and certainly didn't finish, their Relics.

Though if the takeaway here is that the entirety of XIV's content is shifted downwards, to where stuff like the alliance raid is considered "midcore," that would go a long way to explain why I've been bored out of my skull for so long now. :p

A few friends of mine and I have been testing lights and while most have been similar to what everyone else has experience we have come to few conclusions of our own.

We have tried these things so far and seems we have gotten some results so not sure if these may help other people in their research.

First; Myth about Dragon farming;

So far most groups do this and lights have varied based on three factors that we can identify. When they adapt and grow seems we get more light, the twist is that they seem to give more light if the weather matches their weakness and attribute.

Second; some of them are were using their Pagos Elemental weapon and seem to accumulate somewhat more light at a faster rate. Not sure how accurate it happening, we all started with zero bars and by the time we ended at 9 some were still at 7 bars. Maybe it's a a coincidence similar to coffer farming. Some get more than others, not sure.

Third; Mutations are somewhat efficient for chest drops yet give way less light and have from our perspective the worst rate.

Forth; Elemental sprites seem to give a better rate for light amounts than long battle mobs and to an extend are easier to kill.

Fifth; Fates give a nice chunk of light, yet the rate they spawn within windows does vary and seems that when people are clearing bunnies spawn faster than instances that don't.

Level difference If your not getting xp seems lights are extremely low if any.

Amount of party members Just like XP is better killing single mobs as a solo or duo it seems lights are affected to some extended based on level differences. Taking into account previous experiments seems like it gives slightly better light results at a lower speed rate specially with Elemental sprites. Been doing max as trio seems somewhat decent for killing mobs for both lights and mutations.

Feeble light definition....we all know it's inconsistent based on amounts. We have also noticed those floating crystals seems to sometimes give different shades of brightness on occasions just a guess maybe it effects things as well?

NOTE Again this is just based on testing several factors and experiences may vary as well. So before you start slamming the post with negativity pls consider this is just a perspective and I'm sharing information that my group and I have been testing.

I hope this information is helpful for those who are testing light system and any information that is not mention would always be appreciated ^^

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

It's soo casual. Where's your relic? Do you already have it? =]

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What? I thought the hardcore content is the unending coil of bahamut... Since you consider yourself as a hardcore player? Where is your Ultimate Dreadwyrm weapon?

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Originally Posted by Glocktwenty

What? I thought the hardcore content is the unending coil of bahamut... Since you consider yourself as a hardcore player? Where is your Ultimate Dreadwyrm weapon?

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...Was a four-month necro-bump to get the last word really necessary?

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Originally Posted by Zeich

...Was a four-month necro-bump to get the last word really necessary?

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Maybe they took a 4 month break?

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Originally Posted by Zeich

...Was a four-month necro-bump to get the last word really necessary?

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Apparently so.

At least I had a good laugh reading an old debate about how relics are apparently hard enough to require guides.

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Originally Posted by Zeich

...Was a four-month necro-bump to get the last word really necessary?

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Do you know when you think "Man, I should have said this..." but it's too late? For some people, it's never too late!

Sneaky ontopic. Pagos is a joke now thank Goodness. I've got enough lights for 2 relics in less than a week by just casually hunting NMs.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Do you know when you think "Man, I should have said this..." but it's too late? For some people, it's never too late!

Sneaky ontopic. Pagos is a joke now thank Goodness. I've got enough lights for 2 relics in less than a week by just casually hunting NMs.

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Wait till Eureka haters jump on this thread and talk about Pagos as if it's still the same as release day lol.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Wait till Eureka haters jump on this thread and talk about Pagos as if it's still the same as release day lol.

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"Of course I haven't played it, why would I play garbage?"
- Eureka haters probably

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Wait till Eureka haters jump on this thread and talk about Pagos as if it's still the same as release day lol.

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After having done it, it's less terrible than it was. Instead of being a tire fire now, it's a dumpster fire....