The Culling: Moving into 5.0

All of Summoner's spells just be you quickly called out a primal to perform the action and then vanish, similar to how Yuna fights in Dissidia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dqgiDmYglk

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Gameplay wise, I consider that Aetherflux isn't adapted to SMN anymore, it doesn't bring anything. The mechanic doesn't feel interesting (but that's just me).
Unlike SCH, there's very little to no management of the Aetherflux with the SMN, at best you need to keep one stack for an eventual DoT split. Actually the place I manage those stacks the most is in dungeons. While I'm not expecting such a drastic change, if they were to separate the job I wish SMN would be the one being the Stand alone and get a new replacement mechanic.

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Personally, while I'm fine with the vast majority of maintenance buff weaponskills, so long as they bait out and at certain speeds allow for rotational differences (i.e. Twin Snakes is a better skill than Straight Shot which is a better skill than Hot Shot), maintenance abilities like Invigorate, Lucid Dreaming, and Aetherflow, which have no further thought that "hit per CD", are all button-bloat to me. As such, I wouldn't mind seeing Aetherflow removed from either/both SCH and SMN. I'd like to see something pet/trance-based for SMN, but have no major preferences as to SCH at the moment. I love that both can expend resources more quickly than they gain them, but let's face it: passively generating stack of Aetherflow per 20 (15 on trait or so) seconds to a maximum of 4 would have identical burst opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I agree with you overall but I however do think Aetherflux is an interesting mechanic on SCH.
Unlike WHM/AST who have straight forward cd, SCH has rather low cd but they consome a ressource which you generate at a rate of 3 per 45sec. As a SMN your goal is to burn through these as fast as possible, as a SCH not really, (I mean, it could be depending on the situation but in general you don't burn your stack as soon as you press Aetherflux)

For the SMN a passive generation of 1stack every 20sec wouldn't change a damn thing dps wise,you're right, for SCH it would slightly change the dynamic tho.

For instance, if you just used Aetherflux and you burned through your 3 stacks because reasons, you have to wait the entire CD before having them back but here we're talking about healing and not just dps optimisation.
So if you badly need a stack in 20sec to heal that nasty AoE, well too bad, you won't get to use any of those skills for the next 40sec.
Which is why I consider the Aetherflux mechanic to be interesting on SCH. it does require management, you don't necearly want to burn through them ASAP (unlike you do a speed run I guess)

Just started playing Ninja again and what's the point of Jugulate? I get that it silences but the potency is so pointlessly low, compared to Spineshatter Dive which stuns but is like 220 potency. 80 potency is like an auto attack. Seems like it's hardly even worth using since you are interrupting your auto attack for a second when using it which lowers Ninki accumulation slightly.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Just started playing Ninja again and what's the point of Jugulate?.

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Not really... it’s just an extra ogcd attack. There is maybe one fight in savage where you’d want it for silence but it’s better for the tanks to deal with that mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Just started playing Ninja again and what's the point of Jugulate? I get that it silences but the potency is so pointlessly low, compared to Spineshatter Dive which stuns but is like 220 potency. 80 potency is like an auto attack. Seems like it's hardly even worth using since you are interrupting your auto attack for a second when using it which lowers Ninki accumulation slightly.

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Even if the auto-attack animation doesn't go off in the middle of another animation, the damage will still occur. Only casts can delay auto-attacks when they might otherwise have finished, and there is nothing capable of resetting their progress. This ends up a rare issue managed only by luck for Paladins during Requiescat, but is irrelevant/inexistant for all other jobs, especially now that booking/caning the boss isn't remotely worth crowding melee in the vast majority of cases.

If you really need the silence, save it for that; otherwise use it on CD unless it'd delay a more important CD. It's free damage.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I agree with you overall but I however do think Aetherflux is an interesting mechanic on SCH.
Unlike WHM/AST who have straight forward cd, SCH has rather low cd but they consome a ressource which you generate at a rate of 3 per 45sec. As a SMN your goal is to burn through these as fast as possible, as a SCH not really, (I mean, it could be depending on the situation but in general you don't burn your stack as soon as you press Aetherflux)

For the SMN a passive generation of 1stack every 20sec wouldn't change a damn thing dps wise,you're right, for SCH it would slightly change the dynamic tho.

For instance, if you just used Aetherflux and you burned through your 3 stacks because reasons, you have to wait the entire CD before having them back but here we're talking about healing and not just dps optimisation.
So if you badly need a stack in 20sec to heal that nasty AoE, well too bad, you won't get to use any of those skills for the next 40sec.
Which is why I consider the Aetherflux mechanic to be interesting on SCH. it does require management, you don't necearly want to burn through them ASAP (unlike you do a speed run I guess)

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My point was that there's virtually no complexity added by having an Aetherflow ability button as compared to just generating a stack automatically every 15-20 seconds. There's no optimal use for holding onto any more than 1 stack of AF when going into the next AF CD, meaning you'd only need to hold a maximum of 4 stacks in a passive system. Heck, even if you were to allow for 6 stacks held, it'd generate no additional complexity; it'd just pad downtime further, slightly adjusting whether one is able to hold onto all 3 stacks into another CD for a massive AoE pull -- albeit a bit wastefully. I'm not sure that minor, minor degree of additional control is worth spending a button on. Sure, it's not the first thing I'd choose to trim or combine (Summon Bahamut - Enkindle Bahamut), but it doesn't seem worth the bloat to me any more than Invigorate does, assuming TP gains and costs were adjusted to do without it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point was that there's virtually no complexity added by having an Aetherflow ability button as compared to just generating a stack automatically every 15-20 second.

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Instead of the aetherflow for smn my mind keeps going back to the bar that builds during various ults (sephirot, knights, Tsukuyomi) and giving smn some sort of primal limit break or something to build and spend instead of aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I get your point and for summoner I 100% agree there's virtually 0 difference.

However I don't think you get my point regarding SCH(I put some emphasis because my entire last post was about SCH and you replied about SMN altough I said you were entirely right regarding SMN).

SCH could get it removed and turn into a "one charge per 15sec", but it would involve a change gameplay. A SMN will "nearly always" burn through their 3 stacks ASAP.
If as a SCH you burn your 3 charge within 5sec after using Aetherflux, your healing option are quite limited for the next 40sec.
No instant AoE (totally broken this spell seriously)
No instant heal
No Dome
No Proc-heal
No "Insert new Healing skill form 5.0"

However if you holded your 3 stack and burn them, you know that in 15sec, you can do one of these actions. And that's a big difference.
Some would be true if you would hold your 3 stacks and delay Aetherflux because you know that in 10-20 you might need to burn up to 5 of them in a very rapid succession.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I get your point and for summoner I 100% agree there's virtually 0 difference.

However I don't think you get my point regarding SCH(I put some emphasis because my entire last post was about SCH and you replied about SMN altough I said you were entirely right regarding SMN).

SCH could get it removed and turn into a "one charge per 15sec", but it would involve a change gameplay. A SMN will "nearly always" burn through their 3 stacks ASAP.
If as a SCH you burn your 3 charge within 5sec after using Aetherflux, your healing option are quite limited for the next 40sec.
No instant AoE (totally broken this spell seriously)
No instant heal
No Dome
No Proc-heal
No "Insert new Healing skill form 5.0"

However if you holded your 3 stack and burn them, you know that in 15sec, you can do one of these actions. And that's a big difference.
Some would be true if you would hold your 3 stacks and delay Aetherflux because you know that in 10-20 you might need to burn up to 5 of them in a very rapid succession.

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And, again I see no difference to decent play. At worst, there's less potential by which to trap oneself. I don't see that as complexity enough to warrant the keyspace.

Even then, you could still emulate that exact same gameplay and ability to trap oneself even without the button, simply by breaking it into 3 stacks of 'readied' Aetherflow and 3 stacks of 'reserve', which are made ready once the 'readied' are consumed, but must still each be recharged before any new 'readied' stacks can be made.

I.e. Start combat with 3 readied stacks. If you consume a readied stack within 15s of starting combat, another stack replaces it, bringing you back to 3. If you remain at cap (3) when the recharge completes, you gain a reserve stack, which will instantly refill a stack. If you blow through all 6 in a 3 seconds, you'll still have 42 (45-3) seconds to wait before you gain a single new stack. Holding onto stacks past the first three doesn't allow you to use another any sooner: it just increases burst potential, just as currently true. The only difference then is that you have one less oGCD to cast when blasting off all six. Zero gameplay change.

I think they should increase Raiton potency a bit more so the potency is worth clipping into GCD. Right now it's nearly always better to use Fuma, making Raiton a bit pointless. If they increased it's damage or gave it a lasting DoT or something that would be cool. As much as I like the Ninjutsu mechanic, I wonder if they might simplify the skill a bit more, though I suppose it's supposed to be a surrogate for casting time like Iaijutsu is.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Even if the auto-attack animation doesn't go off in the middle of another animation, the damage will still occur. Only casts can delay auto-attacks when they might otherwise have finished, and there is nothing capable of resetting their progress. This ends up a rare issue managed only by luck for Paladins during Requiescat, but is irrelevant/inexistant for all other jobs, especially now that booking/caning the boss isn't remotely worth crowding melee in the vast majority of cases.

If you really need the silence, save it for that; otherwise use it on CD unless it'd delay a more important CD. It's free damage.

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I get that it's free damage. But it's only 80 potency. Look at other melee DPS oGCDs.
Spineshatter Dive/Jump/Mirage Dive/Forbidden Chakra/Elixir Field/ etc. 80 potency is crap. Why not make it 150 potency or 210 potency etc. 80 is just...why?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I think they should increase Raiton potency a bit more so the potency is worth clipping into GCD. Right now it's nearly always better to use Fuma, making Raiton a bit pointless. If they increased it's damage or gave it a lasting DoT or something that would be cool. As much as I like the Ninjutsu mechanic, I wonder if they might simplify the skill a bit more, though I suppose it's supposed to be a surrogate for casting time like Iaijutsu is.

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The main issue with this is that Fuma Shuriken damage is boosted by dripping blades, while Raiton is not, since it is magic damage and dripping blades only boosts physical damage. If they would fix this so that dripping blades boosted all damage, then Raiton would be used much more frequently, even without a potency increase.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I get that it's free damage. But it's only 80 potency. Look at other melee DPS oGCDs.
Spineshatter Dive/Jump/Mirage Dive/Forbidden Chakra/Elixir Field/ etc. 80 potency is crap. Why not make it 150 potency or 210 potency etc. 80 is just...why?

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My guess is that the potency was used as a minor knob to tune NIN dps output. Considering how much utility and extra rDPS a NIN brings, it is important to be careful about how much pDPS they get. I do agree that using the skill feels really lame though, considering how little damage it is. But it is kind of cool that NIN is the only melee DPS that gets access to a silence. It's just stinks that silence mechanics are used so rarely in encounter design.

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The main issue with this is that Fuma Shuriken damage is boosted by dripping blades, while Raiton is not, since it is magic damage and dripping blades only boosts physical damage. If they would fix this so that dripping blades boosted all damage, then Raiton would be used much more frequently, even without a potency increase.

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So Fuma is 288 and Riaton is 360. Raiton is still stronger but not really once you count the loss of GCD clipping. That said, if Raiton was intended to be stronger (given that it's a higher level skill), there's not really a point in using it, right? Unless the mob has a magic vuln debuff

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

So Fuma is 288 and Riaton is 360. Raiton is still stronger but not really once you count the loss of GCD clipping. That said, if Raiton was intended to be stronger (given that it's a higher level skill), there's not really a point in using it, right? Unless the mob has a magic vuln debuff

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It's actually even closer than that, since Fuma Shuriken is also slashing damage, so it is buffed by the slashing debuff as well. I'm not sure if these buffs are additive or multiplicative, so I will show both calculations below to get the actual potency

Additive: (10% slashing + 20% physical = 30% total) => 240 x 1.3 = 312 potency
Multiplicative: (1.1 slashing x 1.2 physical = 1.32) => 240 x 1.32 = 316.8 potency

That combination of buffs, combined with the GCD clipping from Raiton does absolutely result in Raiton being a loss in most DPS situations. But if this were changed so that Raiton was buffed by the Dripping Blades Trait, then:

Raiton: 360 x 1.2 = 432 potency

This change would easily make Raiton the superior choice, thus rewarding the more difficult mudra and making more sense.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I get that it's free damage. But it's only 80 potency. Look at other melee DPS oGCDs.
Spineshatter Dive/Jump/Mirage Dive/Forbidden Chakra/Elixir Field/ etc. 80 potency is crap. Why not make it 150 potency or 210 potency etc. 80 is just...why?

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That's still a Spinning Edge per minute. And as its main purpose for being in your toolkit is the silence, consider how much more potency you'd be losing by delaying it if it actually had 200 potency or so. At that point you'd rather force a Ranged to take a silence or the like, bloating their rotation, and taking away from Ninja's long-time supportive saboteur theme. It's free damage, and it can amount to half a percent or so over a whole fight, but it also means your party has a silence nearly on demand, if you know what you're doing, without any cost to better Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

It's actually even closer than that, since Fuma Shuriken is also slashing damage, so it is buffed by the slashing debuff as well. I'm not sure if these buffs are additive or multiplicative, so I will show both calculations below to get the actual potency

Additive: (10% slashing + 20% physical = 30% total) => 240 x 1.3 = 312 potency
Multiplicative: (1.1 slashing x 1.2 physical = 1.32) => 240 x 1.32 = 316.8 potency

That combination of buffs, combined with the GCD clipping from Raiton does absolutely result in Raiton being a loss in most DPS situations. But if this were changed so that Raiton was buffed by the Dripping Blades Trait, then:

Raiton: 360 x 1.2 = 432 potency

This change would easily make Raiton the superior choice, thus rewarding the more difficult mudra and making more sense.

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My only issue with the way the two work is simply that Dripping Blades clearly does not say "physical damage" on its toolkit. It says "Actions". Everything you can do is an action: every weaponskill, every spell, every ability, and even all things which are none of those three. If Sprint dealt damage, it would be affected, according to that toolkit.

What I actually like about the Raiton/Fuma apparent inequality:

• In typical rotation, a tick of Shadowfang will always go to waste. This isn't avoidable except through planned compromising clipping until extremely high Skill Speeds which are simply not viable for Ninja due to the way Skill Speed works (since it has no animation time scaling and no oGCD damage bonus). This means that there are certain amounts of clipping permissible both on the basis of each rotational string (timing to Shadow Fang) and in macrorotation (timing to Duality and TCJ).
• Of the two, only Raiton can reset Shukuchi, so if you need the teleport coming up, you're going to have to make that ~.33-second clip (from minimum SkS to max out TA).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My only issue with the way the two work is simply that Dripping Blades clearly does not say "physical damage" on its toolkit. It says "Actions". Everything you can do is an action: every weaponskill, every spell, every ability, and even all things which are none of those three. If Sprint dealt damage, it would be affected, according to that toolkit.[/LIST]

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This was identified early on in 4.0 as a translation error, as it correctly states physical damage in the Japanese version. Why it is 4.3 and it still hasn't been corrected..... who can guess lol.........

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

This was identified early on in 4.0 as a translation error, as it correctly states physical damage in the Japanese version. Why it is 4.3 and it still hasn't been corrected..... who can guess lol.........

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Oh, I know. I just don't remotely consider that acceptable, as it's more than enough difference to adjust the breakpoint completely. It honestly disgusts me.

I like that Fuma is generally, but not always, stronger, as it doesn't carry the Shukuchi bonus, and generally leads to smoother gameplay. But I'm not okay with blatant misinformation in official tooltips and on official websites.

3 major patches without a fix, when plenty of other, far less significant typos have been almost immediately remedied, is no longer a matter of mere neglect.

Not so much a cull as a reversion:
I do wish they'd put back all the healer skills they took and put into role actions.
Esuna, Rescue and Protect at the very least.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

For BRD:

• 2.0's shadow bind effect (cross classable to ninja)
  
  
• Wide Volley replacing quick knock
  
  
• Make Iron jaws refresh straighter shot
  
  
• Refulgent Arrow replacing Straight shot when straighter shot is up
  
  
• A less cluttered UI
  
  
• An upgrade to Nature's minne and Wardens paeon to have clemency's aoe radius
  
  
• Minne and Warden work like stone skin and place a stack without the timer. Otherwise, they will work as they do right now.
  
  
• Warden to have a reduced cast time
  
  
• Peloton's effect to to become a passive trait that would be share with machinist
  
  
• A skipping action that would work like sprint
  
  
• Make it so that stats would change color if you hit the stat limit
  
  
• A lullaby aoe to put baddies to sleep
  
  
• hunt tracking skills similar to prospect (universal skill)
  

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

In general:

With the introduction of gauges it might be good idea to begin redesigning the HP/MP/TP/EXP/enemy HP/job gauges/et cetera into a single graphic, or at least just some of them to be more aesthetically pleasing and easier to absorb by players.

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Bard:

Timing: Basically, this will just be a reward system that would insentivise players to keep songs active throughout encounters. It would basically give rewards for switching the next song in a certain amount of time, and would be telegraphed by the song gauge blinking red.
For examples: read below.

Wanderer's minuet reward: Straighter shot proc chance up for the duration for song activated during timing.

Mage's Ballad reward: River of Blood activated for duration for duration of the song activated during timing.

Army's Paeon change: Once all of the notes are activated timing will activate.

Army's Paeon reward: Activating timing will continue its effect for the duration of the song activated during timing.

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This, and add making the majority of the potency buffs into passive traits that players could use with other jobs via a "cross trait" system instead of the "role skill" or "cross class" systems. I think just having battle voice as a passive that would work as it currently does would make songs during the post game lv 50-60 content more active and less boring to play.

I'm wholeheartedly against skills being culled anymore in 5.0.
The low-level experience since Stormblood dropped has been an absolute snoozefest. If more skills are removed or condensed then we're essentially gonna be seeing 2-button rotations until we hit 50.
Plus there really isn't any room to add more buttons for most jobs. The bloat is already at the breaking point.

Honestly what I'd like to see is optional variants on existing skills and rotations in the form of selectable passives.
i.e., maybe allow people to tweak their rotations to spread their damage more evenly, instead of being so focused on burst windows - or maybe allow people to give up some personal DPS in exchange for party buffs/enemy debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Lumadurin

I'm wholeheartedly against skills being culled anymore in 5.0.
The low-level experience since Stormblood dropped has been an absolute snoozefest. If more skills are removed or condensed then we're essentially gonna be seeing 2-button rotations until we hit 50.
Plus there really isn't any room to add more buttons for most jobs. The bloat is already at the breaking point.

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Culling and shifting some skills down to lower levels can both be done at the same time.

In my opinion classes should be mostly complete by level 30, getting your job and getting it to 50 should be about getting your gauge and your basic gameplay loop, and the rest of the way to 70 (soon 80) is getting new toys and fleshing out your kit a bit more.

I want absolutely nothing changed for Astrologian. The class is perfect. I’ve been playing it since 3.0, and would be completely devastated if it were ruined.

However, I am fine with other healing classes becoming more equal with it. I also hope that should there be a new healer, that it would get equal attention.

Honestly, I would be happy if 5.0 added some button consolidations like mentioned previously, and all the new Job features were traits, that made things more powerful/work in new and interesting ways. I feel that most traits are rather bland, and it seems like an aspect of the Jobs that is rather underdeveloped compared to the actions.

Machinist:
1) Permanent gauss barrel - meaning, you'd still have the "after heat phase", but it wouldn't be as bad as having to press one button to reapply it. It would make it a bit less clunky.
2) Wildfire removed and its damage baked in Overheat. Currently both work too similar: a period to shove in the most dps as possible. Feels redundant and it would make a bit less clunky (and less punishing to non-perfect ping players) not having to shove WF inside an OH.
3) Flamethrower being able to cast on the move, but snaring us to only walk when it's channeling. (Or alternatively just make it freely useable on the move).

Summoner:
1) Not related to gameplay but... Give us proper EGI glamours!
2) Dreadwyrm Trance renamed to Primal Trance or Aether Trance, then you'd also have more options for the "big" summon:
- Demi Bahamut: if you need AOE
- Demi Odin: If you need single target
- Demi Sophia: For some kind of AoE support for you and your allies
- Demi ????: Something for PVP, offensive
- Demi ????: Something fpr PVP, defensive

The goal here is to make SMN like it's usual fantasy. One big complaint that I've seen many players having is that XIV's iteration of summoner resembles very little the powerful spellcaster that summons temporary beasts to wreck havoc.

Also, not related to one specific Job, but I always feel that TP's role in the game is just marginal now. Basically only tied to AoE spam, which makes it a bit mindless tbh, especially in a time that everyone has a secondary resource to cope with. Maybe it's time to go?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Culling and shifting some skills down to lower levels can both be done at the same time.

In my opinion classes should be mostly complete by level 30, getting your job and getting it to 50 should be about getting your gauge and your basic gameplay loop, and the rest of the way to 70 (soon 80) is getting new toys and fleshing out your kit a bit more.

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This. We may need a few more trait-based toys to further increase skill ceiling between 50 and 80, but right now it feels like the ability/trait growth over those levels has been used as an excuse -- atop the dev's poor opinion of players despite a refusal to integrate meaningful support or learning systems -- to create newer kinds of content over the course of leveling that would extend an even, reasonable difficulty curve by which to test one's abilities already given in new contexts, requiring ingenuity and a greater understanding of the kit.