Is limit break not a thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Yes. It probably is better just to use caster LB during his add phase. The thing about a melee LB is that it's virtually never USEFUL; all it does is kill the boss very slightly faster, and with shinryu's huge HP, it kills him barely any faster. A healer LB3 though generally is far more useful as it will save a lot of time if used effectively by preventing a wipe, and a caster LB can be used to shorten an add phase. Tank LBs have very specific and rare uses, in which you HAVE to use them to survive. But melee LB can usually be ignored because if you are doing it ok, it's just a bonus of ten seconds in a run.

---

Ok, pls stop posting. You're lowing the intelligence of the whole community with this bull shit. In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal, sure heal LB3 can save a fight but you shouldn't ever be saving a full LB bar for that.

If they arent paying attention to and anticipating limit break, odds are they also arent coming anywhere close to maximizing their dps potential anyways. /shrug it is what it is and no its not a new thing. Everyone starts somewhere, learns at their own pace and blah blah lol. You can be a jerk about it, or try to teach every person you come across. Or do what most people do and accept that queuing with randoms is a mixed bag and just silently take it in stride. Or if it bothers you that much find some like minded people and stop queuing with randoms. They added the ability to do roulettes as a group some time ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

Ok, pls stop posting. You're lowing the intelligence of the whole community with this bull shit. In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal, sure heal LB3 can save a fight but you shouldn't ever be saving a full LB bar for that.

---

Let's not turn this into an insult-fest, ya? Having a pretty good discussion thus far (still a bit surprised that this turned into a discussion)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enlial

If they arent paying attention to and anticipating limit break, odds are they also arent coming anywhere close to maximizing their dps potential anyways. /shrug it is what it is and no its not a new thing. Everyone starts somewhere, learns at their own pace and blah blah lol. You can be a jerk about it, or try to teach every person you come across. Or do what most people do and accept that queuing with randoms is a mixed bag and just silently take it in stride. Or if it bothers you that much find some like minded people and stop queuing with randoms. They added the ability to do roulettes as a group some time ago.

---

Oh, I wasn't implying that I had any sort of issue with it, it was just an observation that I noted when I was doing leveling. LB1s and 2s usually don't save fights in leveling. I just had a curiosity. I wasn't sure what others' experiences were with limit breaks.

Which is why I kinda liked Ungarmax. I used it once just to see what it would do and as a healer, it actually made me feel like I could contribute a limit break in a dungeon. Because tanks and heals never get to use theirs in dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

Ok, pls stop posting. You're lowing the intelligence of the whole community with this bull shit. In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal, sure heal LB3 can save a fight but you shouldn't ever be saving a full LB bar for that.

---

Wow, thought I was in the WoW forums for a second. Anyways, if you're progressing on a fight, saving LB3 to see more of the fight is pretty much the smartest use of LB. While it's "optimal" in a vague sense to use melee LB3 in a single target boss, during any type of progression it's almost never practical to pop LB3 randomly. Furthermore, in Shinryu or Shinryu EX, it's suboptimal to use melee LB3 on the boss. It is far more effective to use it on the adds if your DPS tanked the floor a bunch and you think you'll die to protostar, or to use it on his wings at the end of the fight in Shinryu EX. It's also disingenuous to say that in "almost every fight" melee LB3 is optimal, since the majority of fights in the game are trash mobs, and if you have the ability to LB at all, it's more effective to use caster or ranged LB during those fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enlial

If they arent paying attention to and anticipating limit break, odds are they also arent coming anywhere close to maximizing their dps potential anyways.

---

There are two ways to go with this logic: the "realize how dumb the average person is, and then realize half of them are dumber than that" angle where we can agree that yes, odds are they aren't, but then again odds are they aren't anyway. The other is the one where I disagree with you, and say that actually, people who avoid the LB3 entirely are probably a lot closer to optimizing their job than not. There isn't a job in the game that can fit a 7-10 second delay in actions and still be called "optimal".

Regarding the topic itself, I'd say limit break serves a very fun purpose that sadly loses effect the more effective the team is: it's a big nuke to drop on the enemy. It makes you feel powerful, like you're really using the ultimate power available to you through your job crystal and your connection to your team. In more casual content, it feels AMAZING to let loose a Dragonsong Dive, or a Chimatsuri. Personally speaking I love the animation for Doom of the Living, and always find it hilarious to blind everyone with Vermilion Scourge or summon a satellite laserbeam.

Something I did notice is, going through the team managing to get through the fight without dps Limit Breaking at all is a sign of prestige on us: we were strong enough to not need it, and with our coordination, we were probably stronger without it. Is it a good design to make a system where teamwork coordination and skill completely outdoes and forces obsolescence on a job's ultimate skill? I suppose that's up to each individual to decide.

Personally speaking, I think it fills the niches it needs to fill for most parties: an awesomely animated asskicking attack; a crutch to stand on to make up for lost DPS; a tremendous AOE nuke; a quick "Oh shit" button; and finally, something to avoid like the plague because we don't need no Limit Break in these parts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

It's also disingenuous to say that in "almost every fight" melee LB3 is optimal, since the majority of fights in the game are trash mobs.

---

what endgame fights are trash mobs?

It's a combination of "newbies don't know about it/how to use it" and "tanks and healers never get to use it so don't tend to pay attention to it" at lower levels, along with "but mah parse!!!" at high levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

what endgame fights are trash mobs?

---

None, but you didn't specify "endgame fights". Your statement was "In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal," which is false, because the majority of fights in the game are trash mobs. Although I find it interesting that you decided to pick out my mostly sarcastic statement to criticize rather than the rest of my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

None, but you didn't specify "endgame fights". Your statement was "In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal," which is false, because the majority of fights in the game are trash mobs. Although I find it interesting that you decided to pick out my mostly sarcastic statement to criticize rather than the rest of my post.

---

What other content matters? also the rest of your post was bad if it makes you feel any better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

None, but you didn't specify "endgame fights". Your statement was "In almost every fight melee LB3 is optimal," which is false, because the majority of fights in the game are trash mobs. Although I find it interesting that you decided to pick out my mostly sarcastic statement to criticize rather than the rest of my post.

---

To be fair, what trash mob fights even grant access to LB3?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

What other content matters? also the rest of your post was bad if it makes you feel any better.

---

What do you mean by "matters"? Also, I can tell you have great bedside manners.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

To be fair, what trash mob fights even grant access to LB3?

---

I'm not sure, but that would be an interesting thing to look into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

I'm not sure, but that would be an interesting thing to look into.

---

I don't think there's any trash mob fight in the game that even gives you access to LB3. Those are tied to boss fights. To my knowledge. I don't recall if this is the case with alliance raids, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

I'm not sure, but that would be an interesting thing to look into.

---

None. You only get the extra LB bar on bosses. So the closest thing is something like the golems on Hashmal (and caster LB3 rules the day on that).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinh119

What do you mean by "matters"? Also, I can tell you have great bedside manners.

---

What other content do you ever need LB for at all? Certainly not Dungeons or 24 man content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Yes. It probably is better just to use caster LB during his add phase. The thing about a melee LB is that it's virtually never USEFUL; all it does is kill the boss very slightly faster, and with shinryu's huge HP, it kills him barely any faster. A healer LB3 though generally is far more useful as it will save a lot of time if used effectively by preventing a wipe, and a caster LB can be used to shorten an add phase. Tank LBs have very specific and rare uses, in which you HAVE to use them to survive. But melee LB can usually be ignored because if you are doing it ok, it's just a bonus of ten seconds in a run.

By the time most people use melee lb, they could just keep on doing what they are doing and the boss ends up dead anyways. It actually gets less useful the higher your dps is, and really only is vital in PvP imo.

---

When the entire purpose of a fight is reducing the boss' HP to zero, every little bit helps. Do you need LB3? No. But you shouldn't need LB period. Outside prog, people shouldn't be making enough mistakes to warrant healer LB3. And caster LB3 is only useful in add heavy fights. Why is it useful? Because it kills the add faster, you know, sort of like what melee LB3 does.

For Shinryu specifically, you won't have it in normal and it's a complete waste during the add phase in EX. The LB will do more than the trash has HP, thus melee LBing Shinryu is better as skipping Aerial Blast and Dive means you don't have to deal with those mechanics. Caster LB3 is better at the end, but you'll have two regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

It's a combination of "newbies don't know about it/how to use it" and "tanks and healers never get to use it so don't tend to pay attention to it" at lower levels, along with "but mah parse!!!" at high levels.

---

Something that idd always irked me was how useless healer LB1 and 2 are, while tank have some sort of usefulness in some scenarios, healers LB are just an aoe heal and considering how strong aoe heals are alreasy in the game they don't stand out in any way, maybe SE should redesign them in some ways

I'm a tank, so oftentimes I tend to forget about LB.

But it does come down to forgetting, being new or even being yelled at for using it (or even oh crap the boss is dying faster than I expected). I can understand why people don't always do it.

But I do have it on every dps and tank/heal hotbar just in case. My brain may just not always get that memo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

Something that idd always irked me was how useless healer LB1 and 2 are, while tank have some sort of usefulness in some scenarios, healers LB are just an aoe heal and considering how strong aoe heals are alreasy in the game they don't stand out in any way, maybe SE should redesign them in some ways

---

Me too. Tank LB is niche but occasionally useful. DPS LB is of course almost always preferred. Healer LB 1&2 are basically only worth using if you are completely out of MP and the only person still standing is a tank. It doesn't really help newbie healers learn to care about the button, so they don't know about it when suddenly LB3 could save a wipe and be a crowning moment of awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

What other content do you ever need LB for at all? Certainly not Dungeons or 24 man content.

---

It's pretty useful in trial roulette and alliance raids, both of which have a habit of turning into fiascos sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrankyl

If anything a higher HP pool would render the caster and ranged LBs ineffective since they do less ST damage than the melee one. In fact Melee LB is the preferred LB for all content unless a Tank LB is required, or in case of the second boss of Raba the caster one to deal with adds.

---

that's not accurate. often times the caster one is preferred over the melee. in most levels of content..

in dungeons for example a caster lb is often more beneficial. if you take something like sohm al hards last boss a caster lb during the second "hiss" will smash the adds within a fraction of a second of them spawning. and is always a better choice than to simply use the melee one on the boss.

rabanastres adds is another example. in the older days caster lb3s could save wipes in wod as you could hit all 3 clouds with one on the last boss and prevent a wipe..

the biggest issue I think for many though is that the lbs often feel largely underwhelming to use.. when your super awesome monk, drg, nin or sam go to bust out there melee lb3 and the boss hp bar drops by pretty much 1 single percent.... your left thinking was it really worth it... I lost my jinpu and shifu buffs for that!!! wont bother next time....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

Me too. Tank LB is niche but occasionally useful. DPS LB is of course almost always preferred. Healer LB 1&2 are basically only worth using if you are completely out of MP and the only person still standing is a tank. It doesn't really help newbie healers learn to care about the button, so they don't know about it when suddenly LB3 could save a wipe and be a crowning moment of awesome.

---

I do agree with this. I often think it'd be better if the healer lb 2 maybe even the lb1 had the ability to restore a chunk of mp as well as hp. as hp tools there never really used but as a last ditch source of some extra mp it might be more useful...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Side note, but esuna is garbage and a waste of a slot 99.9% of the time and only required for like 4 fights in the entire game. Stop putting so much weight or value to it when there are much better role skill choices.

---

HAHAHAHHAHAHA


You're funny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

HAHAHAHHAHAHA


You're funny.

---

Prove me wrong. Aside from 2 (?) instances of Doom, and Allagan Venom, tell me where else Esuna is absolutely mandatory for a clear.

I couldn't care less about "it's saved someone from Hashmal bleed" or other such things, people shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

Short answer Dps lost using it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lilithvincent

What other content do you ever need LB for at all? Certainly not Dungeons or 24 man content.

---

It can be useful in dungeons and speed up play if the tank and other players know enough to do large pulls in certain areas. A couple of examples are all trash between the 1st and 2nd boss or trash between the laser gates after the 2nd boss of Ala Mhigo. Pulling all of trash just before the last boss Skalla is another place where the caster LB can speed up play. Other dungeons have similar places where the caster LB can be effective and can be rebuilt for use on the last boss. The real problem is DF groups have little discussion or knowledge about where LB can be effective so if they use LB it is just to use it not as part of any strategy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Prove me wrong. Aside from 2 (?) instances of Doom, and Allagan Venom, tell me where else Esuna is absolutely mandatory for a clear.

I couldn't care less about "it's saved someone from Hashmal bleed" or other such things, people shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

---

I'm not going to argue with someone who has no clue what they are talking about.
You're not worth the time. I'll just black list you in game if you decide to heal a party without esuna instead.
This is a common sense aspect...not a "preference"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I'm not going to argue with someone who has no clue what they are talking about.
You're not worth the time. I'll just black list you in game if you decide to heal a party without esuna instead.
This is a common sense aspect...not a "preference"

---

Common sense is "right tool for the right job". If esuna isn't necessary for a particular instance it is a waste to take it.

I'll usually expect the caster to drop one on the wall to wall pulls, this doesn't happen usually. But I don't bother typing up the order midpull either as there's usually been a huge delay in doing so if it even happens.
Will then Braver the final boss on opening, 2nd gauge is usually earned <10% if at all and bladedance goes into overkill or lands as it dies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Common sense is "right tool for the right job". If esuna isn't necessary for a particular instance it is a waste to take it.

---

I wouldn't be complaining if It wasn't needed.
Surely you realized that.

Yes...there are SOME..not many..but SOME instances where it's not needed.
But there are many areas where it is...where esuna consumes less mana..requires less cures ultimately in your party in terms of healing.

People who don't use it...force more work...and saddly..stupid accidents.
This is not a matter of dodging damage...there are mechanics where you are forced to face roll debuffs.
Frankly the "doom" answer is stupid..and just shows how utterly foolish people are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I wouldn't be complaining if It wasn't needed.
Surely you realized that.

Yes...there are SOME..not many..but SOME instances where it's not needed.
But there are many areas where it is...where esuna consumes less mana..requires less cures ultimately in your party in terms of healing.

People who don't use it...force more work...and saddly..stupid accidents.
This is not a matter of dodging damage...there are mechanics where you are forced to face roll debuffs.

---

I'm actually given to believe more instances don't need it than do. The gauntlet is thrown however, mention all the instances that esuna is required instead of adopting a holier than thou attitude with the guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

"

---

I mean he's not wrong in that esuna is a wasted slot and should have just remained native to all healers. Seems obvious to use it in the few situations that demand it albeit a short list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm actually given to believe more instances don't need it than do. The gauntlet is thrown however, mention all the instances that esuna is required instead of adopting a holier than thou attitude with the guy.

---

Nope...the "guy" will just make up more stuff that are ridiculous and foolish. Not worth the time. I couldn't care less of being accused of holier than thou...its not holier than thou.
If I'm healing your party...you can be damn sure you won't have a stupid accident because I'll have Esuna and actually use it.
Couldn't care less what anyone thinks beyond that.
Heal smarter...not harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Nope...the "guy" will just make up more stuff that are ridiculous and foolish. Not worth the time. I couldn't care less of being accused of holier than thou...its not holier than thou.
If I'm healing your party...you can be damn sure you won't have a stupid accident because I'll have Esuna and actually use it.
Couldn't care less what anyone thinks beyond that.
Heal smarter...not harder.

---

And if the dungeon in question has nothing to esuna? Honestly the previous poster I think had the right of it: things like esuna and rampart should have remained native abilities on all jobs of their role and not been dragged into cross role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Prove me wrong. Aside from 2 (?) instances of Doom, and Allagan Venom, tell me where else Esuna is absolutely mandatory for a clear.

I couldn't care less about "it's saved someone from Hashmal bleed" or other such things, people shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

---

If the standard is "absolutely mandatory for a clear" as you say, then healers have exactly one: Lucid Dreaming (maybe two if you count Swiftcast). None of the others are mandatory for a clear, and several of them are basically irrelevant.

It's an absurdist standard in the first place. Esuna's useful on several fights, including things you want to dismiss like people being hit by Hashmal's bleed. Here in reality, people get hit by stuff they shouldn't and being able to fix that without going to Raise is certainly helpful for a speedier clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I'm not going to argue with someone who has no clue what they are talking about.
You're not worth the time. I'll just black list you in game if you decide to heal a party without esuna instead.
This is a common sense aspect...not a "preference"

---

For what it's worth, I've cleared every raid tier since BCoB as a healer, but go ahead and insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about. By the way, I've thought of another one to add to your list to help you out, since you seem to be struggling, Thornmarch Extreme - Moogle Go Round, we're up to 4 now, out of 100+ encounters. I'm waiting.

On topic: LB can sometimes be punishing for the individual who uses it depending on the job they're on. I know I personally don't bother when I play BLM because the rotation is strict enough as is with timings and I don't want anything to drop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Nope...the "guy" will just make up more stuff that are ridiculous and foolish. Not worth the time. I couldn't care less of being accused of holier than thou...its not holier than thou.
If I'm healing your party...you can be damn sure you won't have a stupid accident because I'll have Esuna and actually use it.
Couldn't care less what anyone thinks beyond that.
Heal smarter...not harder.

---

The bolded is a bit of an ironic comment coming from someone who doesn't want to take the time to understand which fights don't require Esuna and thus free up other cross role slots that allow them to heal smarter. IE, taking Sure Cast in O8 over Esuna to assist with knock back mechanics while maintaining positioning for good healing / DPS or taking Cleric Stance to help out with the deeps. I routinely swap out cross roles depending on the content just to help optimize / heal smarter.

In savage, the only tier you need Esuna is in O5S and you don't even need that if you're doing the train skip. But I will bring Esuna for Rabanstre because, well, crap happens. So, yes heal smarter and bring a better cross role that isn't 100% useless / very low utilization depending on the content you're participating in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tridus

If the standard is "absolutely mandatory for a clear" as you say, then healers have exactly one: Lucid Dreaming (maybe two if you count Swiftcast). None of the others are mandatory for a clear, and several of them are basically irrelevant.

It's an absurdist standard in the first place. Esuna's useful on several fights, including things you want to dismiss like people being hit by Hashmal's bleed. Here in reality, people get hit by stuff they shouldn't and being able to fix that without going to Raise is certainly helpful for a speedier clear.

---

I'm just saying I've had more use out of Surecast of all things than Esuna since Stormblood dropped. Hell I don't even take it for the debuff in O5S because it simply isn't needed, since the debuff doesn't affect off globals like Tetragrammaton.

I'll dismiss poor play as poor play, I believe Esuna is a wasted ability and the healer role actions are abysmally thought out and need a good rework.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

In savage, the only tier you need Esuna is in O5S and you don't even need that if you're doing the train skip.

---

Wait, what? You can use Esuna there (I have not gone in as a healer, and things are so chaotic that I don't have a chance to pay attention to other party members bars, aside from which tank has prey if I'm tanking.

I pop em at lvl 1 in dungeons! >:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Prove me wrong. Aside from 2 (?) instances of Doom, and Allagan Venom, tell me where else Esuna is absolutely mandatory for a clear.

I couldn't care less about "it's saved someone from Hashmal bleed" or other such things, people shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

---

I can get where you're coming from with "you are responsible for avoiding avoidable mechanics." Within the realm of a 24 man though you do kind of have to assume they're all incapable of that, I'd count things like Hashmal as important times to take esuna.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Wait, what? You can use Esuna there (I have not gone in as a healer, and things are so chaotic that I don't have a chance to pay attention to other party members bars, aside from which tank has prey if I'm tanking.

---

The only debuff that can be removed with Esuna is the potency reduction debuff in the healer train since you're suppose to out heal that damage. If you're using the train skip you don't even have to bring Esuna since you won't be doing that mechanic.

No other mechanic that places a debuff on a party member in the entirety of Sigmascape (Savage) can be removed with Esuna.