Most samurais ive met never used AOE

The amount of bad advice people are giving based on SAM is kinda sad... Mhaeric basically nailed what you do.

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Originally Posted by LinXiaoMei

Except as a SAM you kinda need to single target enemies to keep your buffs & debuffs up. It's more efficient to single target them as opposed to use your AOEs due to the TP cost alone. I won't lie about your Midare Setsugekka comment though the sound of that going off for us is pure ecstasty. Its just less efficient cost wise to use AoEs for us we're better off just getting our debuffs off on them one at a time before using even thinking of using an AoE. This is just my personal experience though, I won't say that I'm playing my class 100% optimally or efficiently but I can say I'm being quiet efficient.

Excuse me if I repeat things as I type... my mind is so jumbled. I'm a mess.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Remember that meme about ninja being better for single target than AOE? Now it's samurai.

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Called it.

Kinda wish melee AOEs were like casters. Casters have infinite resources as it is.

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

Kinda wish melee AOEs were like casters. Casters have infinite resources as it is.

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I think the idea is that melee and casters have different perks for AoE, and sustainable AoE dps is caster's thing. Melee's perk is high burst AoE, but it isn't sustainable. Ranged are somewhere in the middle with somewhat high burst AoE that's a bit more sustainable than melee, but not unlimited like caster. What they bring instead is the ability to extend the sustainability of the melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I think the idea is that melee and casters have different perks for AoE, and sustainable AoE dps is caster's thing. Melee's perk is high burst AoE, but it isn't sustainable. Ranged are somewhere in the middle with somewhat high burst AoE that's a bit more sustainable than melee, but not unlimited like caster. What they bring instead is the ability to extend the sustainability of the melee dps.

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Sadly, a lot of times I don't see ranged players use their TP regen. Quite the opposite actually as I end up having to Goad them.

That feeling when you're Aoeing your butt off and you get no tp refresh or goad meanwhile the other dps is single targeting with full tp

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

That feeling when you're Aoeing your butt off and you get no tp refresh or goad meanwhile the other dps is single targeting with full tp

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That person also gets the minion and two commendations to boot.

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Originally Posted by LinXiaoMei

I use it but honestly the damage from it is so insignificant you're better of just shredding the adds one at a time.

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... please don't do this.

Mangetsu/Oka deal 1,650 total potency to ten mobs
Midare, with Jinpu and Kaiten, deals 1,188 to one

There is no scenario, ever, where DPS shouldn't AoE beyond four mobs.

I may not have done much with SAM yet, but it's not difficult to get the general math in regardless of which job you're playing. Base Skill Potency * Number of Enemies = Total Potency. If you have, say, a single-target skill with a potency of 200, your total potency will always be 200 for that skill, regardless of the number of enemies. If you have an aoe that has 100 per enemy, you'll get a total potency of 300 on three mobs, and will increase with each additional mob. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

I may not have done much with SAM yet, but it's not difficult to get the general math in regardless of which job you're playing. Base Skill Potency * Number of Enemies = Total Potency. If you have, say, a single-target skill with a potency of 200, your total potency will always be 200 for that skill, regardless of the number of enemies. If you have an aoe that has 100 per enemy, you'll get a total potency of 300 on three mobs, and will increase with each additional mob. Simple as that.

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Didn't they make it so that most AOEs only deal the full amount to the first target and deals less enemy hit? doing the math its not that far off at 270. Though I don't think thats how AOEs works at all, unless I'm misunderstanding something. An AOE I don't think increases Potency per enemy, but Deals the base potency to each enemy (with reduction if the skill says of course).

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Originally Posted by Rayo

Didn't they make it so that most AOEs only deal the full amount to the first target and deals less enemy hit? doing the math its not that far off at 270. Though I don't think thats how AOEs works at all, unless I'm misunderstanding something. An AOE I don't think increases Potency per enemy, but Deals the base potency to each enemy (with reduction if the skill says of course).

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Not most, just the heavier hitting ones usually. The AoEs that do 100 potency per mob are generally not the ones that have diminishing returns per mob. And even for the ones that do the drop off per mob is not so large to make a single target combo do more. The main reason for the drop off is more so you aren't pulling near single target damage on multiple targets. Summoner in particular was the poster child for this back in 3.0.

As for what they're saying about increased potency, they're just referring to fact that using AoE on multiple mobs results in greater total potency per GCD the more mobs there are, and not that the AoE itself has more actual potency per strike. An AoE increases in overall potency per GCD the more mobs there are. E.g. Scatter is a 300 potency spell vs 3 mobs, it's a 400 potency spell vs 4 mobs, a 500 potency spell vs. 5 mobs, etc.

beeing playing Tank again, noticed it too, that some player / dps (not just sam's) consequently dont use aoes...

think they're on purpose trolling, trying to pull aggro off the tank -_- (or feel good, when they can pull aggro -.-')

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

beeing playing Tank again, noticed it too, that some player / dps (not just sam's) consequently dont use aoes...

think they're on purpose trolling, trying to pull aggro off the tank -_- (or feel good, when they can pull aggro -.-')

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I never feel good pulling aggro. It either means the tank is severely undergeared or isn't really trying. I use Diversion, but with a properly played tank I don't even really need to.

I still get surprised reactions from other DPS and tanks when I use Goad on them. I can't believe people are so lazy as to not use the tools available to them.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I still get surprised reactions from other DPS and tanks when I use Goad on them. I can't believe people are so lazy as to not use the tools available to them.

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I'll be honest, I've met people who hadn't figured what Role actions were

Its simple, SAM has to build buffs with its single target rotations, most importantly the speed and damage ones.
Then those buffs only lasts for the duration of two extra Tenka Gokens built with fuga combos.
Three if you used Meikyo Shisui.
Then its back to buff building else you do very little damage, very slowly.

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Originally Posted by RognarB

Its simple, SAM has to build buffs with its single target rotations, most importantly the speed and damage ones.
Then those buffs only lasts for the duration of two extra Tenka Gokens built with fuga combos.
Three if you used Meikyo Shisui.
Then its back to buff building else you do very little damage, very slowly.

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Using the single target buff rotations is usually a dps loss when there are multiple targets depending on how many mobs you have. Jinpu is a loss at 5+ mobs, and Shifu at 3+. Most of the time you just want to use the Jinpu rotation once and then AoE, and on large packs just skip it entirely. You only need to use it again if there's still lots of hp left on the mob pack when the buff drops, which there shouldn't be if everyone is using their AoE to their full potential.

What? I love to AoE when I'm being a samurai! It makes me feel like one of those badasses in a kung fu flick. :D

I think the reason you don't see a lot of players, not just samurai, using AoE is because it appears more efficient to single target each mob in turn. But, the reality is AoE wins out whenever there's three mobs or more.

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Originally Posted by RognarB

Its simple, SAM has to build buffs with its single target rotations, most importantly the speed and damage ones.
Then those buffs only lasts for the duration of two extra Tenka Gokens built with fuga combos.
Three if you used Meikyo Shisui.
Then its back to buff building else you do very little damage, very slowly.

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On large pulls, you only apply your buffs during the pull itself. Try to pick targets while running but shift your attacks around to avoid taking aggro. Once the tank stops, do as Mhaeric said.

Shifu only if under three targets
Jinpu only if under five targets

And don't bother reapplying them. Most pulls won't last long enough by then to warrant it.

Playing SAM is like chopping trees and it's more fun fighting mobs, like in old samurai movies. My go-to mob combo at the moment is:

Setsu Combo (Hakaze+Yukikaze) + Ka/Getsu Combo (Fu combos) + Hissatsu: Kaiten + Iaijutsu (Tenka Gokken). Insert Ageha/Hissatsu: Guren/Hissatsu: Shinten when applicable.

I'm on PS4 so no parse, but so far this appears to burn mobs down the fastest and not gas out on TP. Also be mindful of positionals for the best results.

Want to hear something funny (regarding the topic title)? I have been vote-dismissed multiple times for using any AoE as Samurai. On a serious note: Opening with Jinpu combo (for damage+), building Sens with Shifu/Fuga>Oka/Fuga>Mangetsu to convert them into H:Kaiten, build another 2 Sens for Tenka Gokken and repeat seems the only effective way to spam AoE more frequently. H:Guren's CD is too long, so you are more likely to use it after the Jinpu buff or as a finisher.

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Originally Posted by Darric

Want to hear something funny (regarding the topic title)? I have been vote-dismissed multiple times for using any AoE as Samurai. On a serious note: Opening with Jinpu combo (for damage+), building Sens with Shifu/Fuga>Oka/Fuga>Mangetsu to convert them into H:Kaiten, build another 2 Sens for Tenka Gokken and repeat seems the only effective way to spam AoE more frequently. H:Guren's CD is too long, so you are more likely to use it after the Jinpu buff or as a finisher.

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I feel like there is more to that story than just being “kicked” for using aoe abilities. If a dps runs ahead of me and bum rushes mobs while not using enmity dumps. Then I would kick that dps.

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Originally Posted by Darric

Want to hear something funny (regarding the topic title)? I have been vote-dismissed multiple times for using any AoE as Samurai.

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Like the person above said there must be more to that story. I have been playing Samurai since the expansion launch and I haven't been kicked once for doing AoE on Samurai. You are on Omega so you are on the same data centre as me so I don't see why you would get kicked. If you said once I could understand but multiple?

I AoE all the time on my SAM in dungeons. I also spend a lot of time with zero TP because of it.

TP management is a huge issue for my SAM at level 56.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I AoE all the time on my SAM in dungeons. I also spend a lot of time with zero TP because of it.

TP management is a huge issue for my SAM at level 56.

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It's a bit better at 60 because you can use Hagakure with 3 sen (use your two AoEs and Yukikaze combo for 60 kenki) to help you spam Kyuten a lot more in between Sen builders, killing enemies faster. Sam AoE is still a TP drain, but its definitely better when you use all your tools. Have a good Brd or Mch in your party who actually uses their regents and you can AoE for days. Well, at least long enough to kill most enemies.

And I also want to chime in that I've never been kicked for AoEing. Hell, I can recall being kicked exactly once and that was when a dungeon first started because people were trying to get their buddy in.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's a bit better at 60 because you can use Hagakure with 3 sen (use your two AoEs and Kasha combo for 60 kenki) to help you spam Kyuten a lot more in between Sen builders, killing enemies faster.

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I'm confused by this.

When AoEing you shouldn't really ever be using the Shifu/Kasha combo, using it wouldn't even get you a third Sen anyways. You should be starting with Jinpu/Gekko for the damage buff and then going into AoE, Hagakure the first two Sen and go from there. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's how it should go.

Anyway, I've also never been kicked for AoEing.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I'm confused by this.

When AoEing you shouldn't really ever be using the Shifu/Kasha combo, using it wouldn't even get you a third Sen anyways. You should be starting with Jinpu/Gekko for the damage buff and then going into AoE, Hagakure the first two Sen and go from there. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's how it should go.

Anyway, I've also never been kicked for AoEing.

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I edited it... meant Yukikaze. I like to use it because it means an extra 10% damage on target (I like to target the mob with the highest health) and almost 1 full Kyuten or a full Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

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Oh. I get it now. Sometimes I do this as well. But usually I avoid single target if I have TP and Jinpu up.

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

I feel like there is more to that story than just being “kicked” for using aoe abilities. If a dps runs ahead of me and bum rushes mobs while not using enmity dumps. Then I would kick that dps.

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You are quick to judge, nice. Honestly, i dont run ahead unnecessarily as DPS. Never. However, doesn't look like i can convince you about my PoV

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Originally Posted by Remus

Like the person above said there must be more to that story. I have been playing Samurai since the expansion launch and I haven't been kicked once for doing AoE on Samurai. You are on Omega so you are on the same data centre as me so I don't see why you would get kicked. If you said once I could understand but multiple?

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Do you expect me to print-screen every bottom-of-the-barrel case I have to deal with? that would turn this thread into a gallery. Anyway, i was only telling what happened. In all honesty, if you dont believe it, well met then. Not very considerate of you both, tho.

can i kick the elephant in the corridor? i means yes, you get more "DPS" by AoE and no one is in right mind for not aoe when you have more of 5-6 target, yes.... however, i want to point out something, some say that you get tons of dps when you aoe, that right, but that the total damage done, to the whole group, not per target, and that where it can be tricky.... if is a pull of meatshield monster that have ton of hp, use AoE can be the worst idea possible (outside of tenka gouken)
Fuga only deal 100 potency per target
mangestu and oka is 200 potency per target

means you will deal 300 potency (if you don't keep your buff) per target, it work when they are small monster with not alot of life, but don't work well if they have tons of life... worst if the other member of the group is not aoe, you will end out of tp in no time...
i will not say to not AoE, but to use wisely the AoE, some monster in pack have no life and can be killed quite fast in aoe, but if they are meatshield type... you will spend a looooooot of time to do full AoE.

the best is to go hybrid like pointed by some, and to know what your group can do and which type of monster deserve to be deal with the full aoe or not...

ps: dps can sometimes be a bad indicator of what a group do.... yes, in multi pull with full aoe you can reach insane number.... but in reality you are maybe doing subpar, don't forget that if the number of enemy is reduce faster, healer can toss a few attack inside, instead to heal the tank.

anyway, each situation and group can be different... the best is to talk with the sam with you, maybe he will change his way to play and adapt. communication is an incredible tool, you know?

Most players don't use AOE because doing the math is to hard or they are just special snowflakes.

The bigger question is: why do bards and machinist ALWAYS have Peloton but rarely mp/tp refresh in dungeons?

Can't count how many times I go B-to-the-wall with SAM aoe and not see TP refresh, then as soon as the mobs are dead I see the stupid green peloton.

Gotta save that three seconds between mobs just use Invigorate.

Paraphrasing something I was once told.

The newest 24 man has proven that the majority of players aren't capable of basic math.

Rule of thumb i usually go for regardless of the class
Intense AoE combo if is there's more than 3 mobs, simple as that.

SAM AoE combo is TP heavy so it's a waste if you use for less than 3 mobs and you can just go on the 2nd combo with 2 sen (3 hit combo followed by yuki combo) + Kyuten for those or when you're low on TP, BRD doesn't reply to TP refresh request or Invigorate is on CD.
Enmity is no longer an issue for SAM with 4.3 and the change to Merciful Eye, which is hyper useful for those AoE spam. Got aggro ? third eye up and pop merciful eye and bam -20% enmity and all is good.

Also sidenote @silentwindfr you're not doing max potency per target, the AoE (Mangetsu / Oka and Tenka) on the SAM work like Holy, you're doing the full potency to the first target it hit and then drop 5% of that potency up to 25% potency loss for 2 attack while Tenka drop by 10% instead, but in both case potency bottom out after the 4th target.

I wouldn't say merciful eyes is an easy agro dump... timing getting hit (and actually getting hit) to reduce agro is situational at best...

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

The bigger question is: why do bards and machinist ALWAYS have Peloton but rarely mp/tp refresh in dungeons?

Can't count how many times I go B-to-the-wall with SAM aoe and not see TP refresh, then as soon as the mobs are dead I see the stupid green peloton.

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There are three role skills I'll always have as BRD/MCH, Peloton, Refresh, and Tactician.

Because once I can get Palisade... what else is there? Stuns are unreliable in dungeons, since everybody spams them to high heaven (and bosses ignore them), silences aren't 100% obvious on whether the current skill can be stopped with it (and also are almost always ignored by bosses), and the less said about roots and heavy the better.

So what should I have instead of Peloton?

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

So what should I have instead of Peloton?

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Refresh, Tactician, Palisade, Second Wind, Invigorate.

I feel this can be applied to almost every job. Duty finder people are crazy.

It’s not just SAM but other players in other classes maybe you notice more SAM since it’s more common. In my glamour farm runs I have seen it all so many classes not AoEing down mobs. One time had a SMN that I swear was just AFK for the whole run. What’s hilarious is that not only are these players not AoEing they also don’t Goad me even though I have already used Tactician and Invigorate the mobs are not dead and I have zero tp.

Haha, who uses Goad?

Seriously, the amount of times I've seen it can be counted on one hand. First time I saw it, I had to do a double take.